Author Topic: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions  (Read 36282 times)

Offline Mustang Gregg

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2009, 12:22:18 pm »
Wild Bunch shooting:

I really like the idea of allowing other handguns of the era besides 1911-type pistols.  I reckon that Webleys, early DA S&W's/Colts, Lugers, Mausers, etc, etc oughta be allowed in Wild Bunch.

My opinion only---Your mileage will vary.  ;D

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Offline Bull Schmitt

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2009, 12:55:44 pm »
It seems to me the Wild Bunch venue is a SASS concept and doesn't really have anything to do with the GAF concept of the Victorian era military. As a matter of fact I believe the Wild Bunch movie lead to the founding of SASS. Let's leave the WB to SASS. If we MUST have something akin to it let's call it something else and establish our own rules for it.

We have a cut-off of 1904 and this discussion is now mentioning WWI!! The GAF is not meant to be everything to everybody. I agree that shooting early 20th century military firearms is fun but I don't believe most of them have a place in the GAF 

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Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2009, 03:49:46 pm »
While I am not in GAF, I have been watching this thread.  Earlier this year in Victoria, The Grey Fox, Cary Kangas entered our club match under Wild Bunch rules as an introduction to this event. (His results were not really part of the match.)

Interesting!  But I kinda agree with Bull Schmidt; - Its NOT my idea of GAF!

All of the ideas being bandied about can fit easily into GAF and its period and subject matter, just leave WB out of it.

BTW, in 1914, the Canadian Expeditionary Force, C.E.F., was equipped with 5,000 model 1911's.  Some of these pistols served well into WWII with our Para's.  The Colts were later augmented with revolvers of several makes.
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2009, 05:17:35 pm »
Nothing like throwing a grenade in the pond to see what floats up.  But i'm starting to rethink this. . .

Frankly, (Just me now) I'm becoming a little uncomfortable with anything right now that detracts from our central focus on the arms and accoutrements of the Victorian era.  I think I'd rather see a School of the Soldier, or a full power on paper long range match, than the Wild Bunch. Even better, how about the Skirmish run in the 1890s rifle quals. 

I think SASS is about to lose control of the intent of the WB, and it'll mushroom fast if they do. And if it does, it'll spill over on all of us, to our detriment.  We need to keep to our core I'm thinking.

I think too, of the distances we're asking folks to travel.  Adding a whole other set of guns to the load might not be the most considerate thing.

'Course, I'm just a thinkin' . . .
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 05:23:26 pm by Drydock »
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Offline US Scout

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2009, 08:12:49 pm »
Let there be absolutely no misunderstanding.  There is no intention, I repeat NO INTENTION, of expanding the focus of the GAF beyond our stated period of interest.  The GAF will continue to focus on the Victorian era military between roughly 1866 and 1900.  You will note from our uniform policies that we will allow some expansion for a few years either way, but our primary focus is and will remain the last half of the 19th century.

However, the so-called "Wild Bunch" side matches have proved extremely popular at our Grand Musters, as evidenced by the early 19th century firearms being used, along with appropriate, and I might add very impressive, uniforms for the period. 

What we are trying to do is define what is, or is not, acceptable for these side-matches so that we do not end up making the mistakes that SASS has done because they didn't give it any real thought until it was too late to take effective action.  Also whether we should recognize the effort to both shoot well and look good doing it. 

We can easily define what we will or will not accept, just as we can easily determine that these "Wild Bunch" side-matches are inappropriate for our Musters.  This is why I am encouraging this exchange of opinions and ideas.  If we determine that these matches are detrimental to the GAF, we will no longer allow them.  On the other hand, if they are not detrimental, then we need to determine what we will or will not allow before it gets out of hand.

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Offline Niederlander

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2009, 08:38:27 pm »
Hello!
      I guess I don't see how "Wild Bunch" stages have to be detrimental to GAF, AS LONG AS THEY ARE KEPT STRICTLY A SIDE MATCH THAT DOES NOT COUNT TOWARDS THE BRIGADE CHAMPIONSHIP!  I think we all agree that the primary focus of GAF is the Victorian era, but that doesn't mean we can't have lot of fun with a slightly later period.  It worked very well at the Muster this year to have the Wild Bunch match the day prior to the actual muster.  That way you could participate or not as you wished.  As far as being concerned with the travel, if I'm going put that much effort and expense into a long and extensive shooting trip, I'd rather have the option of an extra day of shooting, competition, and camraderie.
       I think one way we could limit it is to put the upper time limit at August 1914.  The Great War changed everything, so its beginning would seem to be a good cut-off point.  Another suggestion would be to change the name, maybe to something to do with the Age of Expansion.
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Offline Bow View Haymaker

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2009, 10:09:29 pm »
I had a great time at the last two wild bunch SIDE matches at the last 2 National musters.  Last year I used my 1917 with limited results and my 2 tone Llama 1911 and had a great time. this year I once again used the Llama along with my trusty Rossie 92.

From some of the ideas mentioned, I would be out of luck on both rifle and pistol.

To  disiallow the 1911A1 would pretty much eliminate all but originals and purpose built reproductions of the WW! era pistgol.  When most people think 1911 it's the A1 that they think of and that is what is mostly availabel to use.  I think it's great to allow other handguns of the era like the double action revolvers and other pistols.  Lets not be like SASS and allow only 1911s but lets not be like NCOWS either and requier that the guns have to be excactly the ones built back then.

on the Rifle,  the 1917 is the closes't thing I have to a battle rifle.  Remember that the m1917 or P-17 rifle is the American verrsion of the British P-14. 

I really liked the relxed atmosphere of the last couple of Wild bunch side matches at the musters.  I would hate to see thing taken so seroiusly as to forget that this is a game. 

I think the Side mach rules should be up to the match direxctor.  This includes the Wild Bunch side match. 
Simply adding the rifle calib er rifles puts the GAF touch on it. 
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Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2009, 08:08:21 am »
One of the things I like about the GAF is that we are allowed ANY service weapon that was actually used in our era, like pencil barreled DA .38s, New Service Colts, Webleys,  M1878 Colts etc.

On the separate classes for the revolver and auto in Wild Bunch, I agree with Capt Mack because I would like to see the big N Framed Smith & Wessons fired. If loading devices for the revolver are not allowed and the revolvers were to be pitted against the automatics, I would just shoot an automatic-easy choice. If there was a separate class for revolver and automatic, loading devices for the wheelgun would be unnecessary, although finding auto rim .45s for the M1917 Colts and Smiths may be a bit of a challenge for the people that use them.

I think the .45 autos should be  in basic service type configuration, not the beavertailed, extended this and that, Novak sighted, funneled mag well gee wiz 1911s. Yeah, I have one of those modern configured 1911s, but I use a standard service .45 for wild bunch because I feel it is more in keeping with the spirit of our organization!

Whatever the outcome is on the status of the "Wild Bunch" in our organization, I am sure that Col
Drydock will make sure that the criteria for allowable weapons and loading methods will be logical and fair.

Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2009, 09:55:11 am »
Well, OK, here's what I would do:  (and thank you, Charles Isaac!)

As was done at Hartsuff, split the class between Levers and Milspec.  Lever class stays as is (SASS Standard)

Milspec class: Milspec rifles and handguns of the Era of Expansion 1900-1916, items identified with WW1 excluded (No helmets, gas masks, etc.)  period loading aids allowed (Stripper clips, bloc clips, chargers for the Krag, half moon clips for revolvers, etc)  NO shotgun, shotgun targets engaged with the handgun.  (do this at my local match, its a hoot)  Shooter has 4 options for dress: cowboy with any weapon, Villista with any weapon, US army with any weapon (In the Movie after all, the US Army outfits were a disguise)  Or uniform to match the rifle.  Both 1917s (rifle and pistol) and the basic 1911a1 allowed, developments of earlier weapons.  NO OTHER EXCEPTIONS!!

THIS IS A SIDEMATCH!  Don't even think about asking to use any of this in the main match!  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 09:57:27 am by Drydock »
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Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2009, 10:28:15 am »
Drydock to your description I would add that certificates would be awarded for placing in the shooting and the uniform competition. And as you say this would NOT count to the BC.
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Offline captmack

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2009, 01:48:29 pm »
I concur with the good Col.  It's all about having fun.  Keep it a side match and not to interfere with the core values of the GAF. 

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2009, 03:09:53 pm »
And if we want to separate ourselves from SASS call it the "Pershing" Side Match.

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Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2009, 04:14:53 pm »
And if we want to separate ourselves from SASS call it the "Pershing" Side Match.

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Offline US Scout

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2009, 05:35:01 pm »
And if we want to separate ourselves from SASS call it the "Pershing" Side Match.

Mack

Capt Mack,

See my comments in the "SASS Takes Notice" thread.

I noted on another CAS City forum that the GAF "Wild Bunch" matches are not based on the movie but on the Pershing Expedition into Mexico in 1916.  I would also include the Marine landing at Vera Cruz in 1914 as well - though I didn't say it there.

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« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 05:37:11 pm by US Scout »

Offline pony express

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2009, 07:24:12 pm »
Col. Drydock....I like the sound of your rules! No need to worry about that cranky '97 I bought...Now, what to use...SMLE, P-14,'98 Mauser, Moisin Nagant, Maybe even the Berthier, if I can find more than just the one clip I have for it(And more than 20 cases!)

Offline Pony Racer

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2009, 07:50:01 pm »
Pony express I have two berthier carbines one in WWI config and one in WWII config.

The both will take either the 3 or 5 shot clip.

Mine are extrememly accurate out to 70 yds (longest distance I have been able to test out)

I may take mine into the deer stand later this fall - they are nice compact well handling and seemingly well built rifles.

3 shot clips are very hard to find, if you want me to look at next antique gunshow - i am sure i would find some 5 shot clips - more than willing to buy for you and then ship for payment later.

they are too fun not to help a pard out!!!

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Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2009, 08:02:47 pm »
Gee, folks allready making plans!  I want to say something up front concerning the Moisin Nagant:  ONLY the M1891 is eligible for GAF use, either in the Main Match, or any milspec side match.  The Soviet era 91/30 is NOT eligible.  For WB I would also NOT allow the 98K.  Only the earlier 98 is eligible.  Basicly, no WW2 configuration of any weapon can be used.  Even 1903s better have barrel sights, the ww2 reciever sights are verboten . . .

IF!  We decide to do this.  IF! The command staff gives Ordnance direction to formulate such policy.  IF! I survive the administrative beatings sure to accompany said direction . . .
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline pony express

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2009, 08:48:44 pm »
Pony Racer, I just checked, ans it turns out I had 2 5rd clips for mine. I thought there was just one in the reloading room, but there was another in the gun. I guess that would do for most stages, but any more than 10 rounds it would become a single shot.Mine is a WW1 type long rifle, I never have shot it much. Bought it years ago for $75 or so, and got one box of shells from Old WesternScrounger. They probably cost half as much as the gun! Never got set up to reload for it, maybe I'll have an excuse to do that now.

Drydock: Yes, the Moisins I have are WW1 type, with the octagon reciever and loooooonng barrel.

And I forgot about the Arisaka........I think introduced in 1906....

I think I need to get some more dies and bullet moulds...

Offline Dalton Masterson

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2009, 09:12:25 pm »
I have many Mosins, but my favorites are my M91s, of which are better shooters than my others too. They never should have made them shorter guns in the first place!

I am also working on an 1888 Commission rifle project, of which I am awaiting a few parts from a person who will remain nameless ;).
Once I get that going, I may end up going away from the Russian route, and going that route. Time will tell.
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Offline Pony Racer

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2009, 09:15:39 pm »
I have dies but got loaded ammo from GAD reloading and his ammo prices aint bad

here is link

http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com/

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Offline pony express

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2009, 10:03:47 pm »
I have many Mosins, but my favorites are my M91s, of which are better shooters than my others too. They never should have made them shorter guns in the first place!

I am also working on an 1888 Commission rifle project, of which I am awaiting a few parts from a person who will remain nameless ;).
Once I get that going, I may end up going away from the Russian route, and going that route. Time will tell.
DM
Does your commission rifle still use mannlicher type clips? The one I have is converted to use stripper clips, or loose rounds. I guess a lot of them were done that way. should make it better for battle rifle class, unless the modification prevents it's use.

Offline Dalton Masterson

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2009, 10:40:53 pm »
Mine all use the clips. I have about 7 of them, mostly in parts. 2 out of the bunch are close to shooters, but still needing a few things, including a few of the clips.
I had one of the converted Turkish ones, but traded it off without even trying it out. Got a Finn M39 with it tho.
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Offline US Scout

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2009, 06:01:21 am »
Gee, folks allready making plans!  I want to say something up front concerning the Moisin Nagant:  ONLY the M1891 is eligible for GAF use, either in the Main Match, or any milspec side match.  The Soviet era 91/30 is NOT eligible.  For WB I would also NOT allow the 98K.  Only the earlier 98 is eligible.  Basicly, no WW2 configuration of any weapon can be used.  Even 1903s better have barrel sights, the ww2 reciever sights are verboten . . .

IF!  We decide to do this.  IF! The command staff gives Ordnance direction to formulate such policy.  IF! I survive the administrative beatings sure to accompany said direction . . .


Since you won't allow my M1903A3, I'm not sure if I want to approve any future WB matches... ;D   Oh, wait a minute, I have a Krag I can use.

However, I think we need to come up with a new designation for said side match if we go forward with it - and based on the comments posted we probably will.

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Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2009, 01:43:58 pm »
OW!  See, starting allready OW!  No, you can't use an a3 OW!  No beavertails OW!

How about "Black Jacks Match"  as his career encompassed all we do, from the Apache campaigns of the 1880s, San Juan Hill, the Phillipines, the Mexican incursion, to command of the AEF.  If the General grew a mustache and looked grumpy, he'd kinda look like the man.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 02:37:33 pm by Drydock »
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Offline pony express

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2009, 05:55:25 pm »
Dalton, I only have one commision rifle, one of the turkish ones converted for use without the clips. it feeds milsurp real smoth, but the only cast bullet I have tried didn't feed, they tend to get"nose down" in the magazine. Maybe I'll try the lee bullet in it, I only have a mould for the Lyman that is kind of short with lots of grooves.

Pony Racer, I checked out that site, they do have pretty reasonable prices. I also noticed they have .38 long colt cast bullets, both heel- and hollow base pretty reasonable. I may have to try a few of those out when I get my colt DA project going.