Author Topic: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions  (Read 36259 times)

Offline pony express

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #100 on: October 28, 2009, 09:21:23 pm »
Wow, I'm offline a few days and sure is a lot going on here!. It sounds to me like we have come up with concepts for two seperate kinds of side match.....the "WB/Persing", and the "Skirmish". I like them both. Persing would be wn opportunity to bring out toys normally not allowed in GAF, and The skirmish line, using Victorian era weapons. I think there should be room for both, but maybe not is the same match as seperate side matches. But, the skirmish line type scenario, since it would use standard GAF firearms, could be made part of the main match, for at least one or two stages, if the range layout permits. Perhaps on a two day match, have Saturday be the standard type of stages, and the half day sunday for skirmish?

Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #101 on: October 28, 2009, 09:37:21 pm »
Perhaps we need to run 2 skirmish stages:  First the rifle, 3 classes, Lever, Mil SS, Mil Rptr.  4 positions, one standing, one kneeling, one prone, one shooters choice.  5 rounds each postion, reloading on the move.  2nd stage, same positions and requirements as the first, but all  handgun, 3 classes: Autoloader-DA revolver-SA revolver.  Winner has the best combined score.
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Offline pony express

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #102 on: October 28, 2009, 09:54:27 pm »
Perhaps we need to run 2 skirmish stages:  First the rifle, 3 classes, Lever, Mil SS, Mil Rptr.  4 positions, one standing, one kneeling, one prone, one shooters choice.  5 rounds each postion, reloading on the move.  2nd stage, same positions and requirements as the first, but all  handgun, 3 classes: Autoloader-DA revolver-SA revolver.  Winner has the best combined score.

Another good possibility.

I'm assuming that since autos are included, then this one would also include the 1900-WW1 era rifles?(yes, I remember what my drill sergeant said abbout "assume")

Offline US Scout

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #103 on: October 29, 2009, 09:17:40 am »
...It sounds to me like we have come up with concepts for two seperate kinds of side match.....the "WB/Persing", and the "Skirmish". I like them both. ...


Basically two names for the same concept.  I and my ordnance staff (Col Pitspitr and Lt Col Drydock) are working on this very issue as I type.  We want to design a side-match that is unique to GAF and won't be confused with the Wild Bunch matches used in SASS. 

The "skirmish" concept, once we work out the details, will probably be used in the main match as well - it sounds like too much fun to limit it to just a side match.  Some of our early Grand Musters used a simple form of this and we'd like to see it become the standard for stages at future Musters.  Lt Col Drydock's posts reflect some of the ideas we're coming up with, but we're still working on the exact details.

Comments provided by the members in this thread have been taken into consideration.

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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #104 on: October 29, 2009, 10:51:54 am »
I, too, very much like the skirmish concept, for both main and side matches, wherever the range layout permits it to be done safely.  Our local CAS range has individual bays with side berms, and we like to use downrange movement in scenarios.  

With that experience behind me, I'll "state the obvious" - placement of loading and unloading stations is critical when this type of movement is considered.  (Our side berms permit us to orient the tables so that gun muzzles are pointed into the berm, rather than downrange as they usually would be .....    Alternatively, if vacant bays are adjacent to the stage being shot, the tables in those bays are used, for even greater safety.)

Of course if movement downrange is possible, movement uprange is equally feasible (..... and necessary, for that matter .....) So, although I'm sure this has already been considered, I'll again "state the obvious" - withdrawal (retreat) movement is just as appropriate to our shooting style as advancing movement!  In other words, the shooter can start in a downrange position and "withdraw" toward the static firing line, or can advance from the firing line and then retreat .....
Lots more room for creativity ......   ;D
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Offline pony express

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #105 on: October 29, 2009, 05:54:48 pm »
That sounds even better, but of course, the "uprange" movement part of the stage would require careful planning for keeping muzzles in a safe direction.

Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #106 on: October 30, 2009, 08:06:32 pm »
Heads of an organization actually listening to its members. One can usually only wish for that and on the rare occasions that you do have it, life is good.


Just another aspect that makes me proud to be a member of this fine organization.

Offline River City John

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #107 on: October 31, 2009, 11:13:17 am »
That sounds even better, but of course, the "uprange" movement part of the stage would require careful planning for keeping muzzles in a safe direction.

The Grand Muster of three years ago(four years ago?) had several stages with movement and safe handling of long arms for muzzle control written into the stage directions.

One was a team stage where two shooters formed a team. They advanced downrange at charge d'armes, shot their rifle target sequence and then while still facing forward came to present arms, about faced then shouldered arms to walk back towards their beginning mark. At that point they came to ground arms and then placed their long arms in the waiting rifle racks before turning and continuing the rest of the stage for the pistol portion.

RCJ
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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #108 on: October 31, 2009, 01:00:21 pm »
Heads of an organization actually listening to its members. One can usually only wish for that and on the rare occasions that you do have it, life is good.

As has been mentioned before (both here and elsewhere) The GAF exists soley on the good will of it's membership. If GAF doesn't listen to it's membership it will cease to exist. The other thing to remember is that the command staff are members as well. If we like something chances are pretty good that the rest of the membership enjoys it as well and vice versa. Finally I want to mention that if there's something that you think of that we haven't be sure to let us know. We're always open to listening. We may not alway agree, but we'll always listen.
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Offline Cactus Rope

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #109 on: October 31, 2009, 08:28:39 pm »
As has been mentioned before (both here and elsewhere) The GAF exists soley on the good will of it's membership. If GAF doesn't listen to it's membership it will cease to exist. The other thing to remember is that the command staff are members as well. If we like something chances are pretty good that the rest of the membership enjoys it as well and vice versa. Finally I want to mention that if there's something that you think of that we haven't be sure to let us know. We're always open to listening. We may not alway agree, but we'll always listen.

Hear, hear!!!!!!
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Offline Frenchie

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #110 on: October 31, 2009, 11:58:02 pm »
One was a team stage where two shooters formed a team. They advanced downrange at charge d'armes, shot their rifle target sequence and then while still facing forward came to present arms, about faced then shouldered arms to walk back towards their beginning mark. At that point they came to ground arms and then placed their long arms in the waiting rifle racks before turning and continuing the rest of the stage for the pistol portion.

So learn and practice your Manual of Arms, you slackers!  ;D

RCJ, as I learned the sequence you describe here, Scott's and Hardee's 'Schools of the Soldier' would have those evolutions in this order: Shoulder Arms - Charge Arms - Forward - Halt - Ready - Aim - Commence Firing - Cease Firing - Shoulder Arms - Present Arms - Shoulder Arms - About Face - Forward - Halt - Order Arms - Stack Arms (put them in the rack). All the Manual of Arms evolutions begin at Shoulder Arms.

But then, I was a Regular Army infantry reenactor (read "anal retentive about drill").  ;D
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Offline River City John

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #111 on: November 01, 2009, 12:08:03 am »
Frenchie, we weren't going for historical accuracy as far as the manual of arms, but rather the best way to insure muzzle control at all times throughout the stage. :D
If going to shoulder arms while facing forward the muzzle would be pointing backward behind the shooter towards their rear.
We had the shooter go directly to present arms, about face, THEN shoulder arms to march back towards the firing line.

RCJ
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 12:14:47 am by River City John »
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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #112 on: November 01, 2009, 07:54:20 am »
RCJ, as I learned the sequence you describe here, Scott's and Hardee's 'Schools of the Soldier' would have those evolutions in this order: Shoulder Arms - Charge Arms - Forward - Halt - Ready - Aim - Commence Firing - Cease Firing - Shoulder Arms - Present Arms - Shoulder Arms - About Face - Forward - Halt - Order Arms - Stack Arms (put them in the rack). All the Manual of Arms evolutions begin at Shoulder Arms.

Frenchie, Didn't you leave out the loading evolutions? After all with Hardee's you're talking about 1861's and 1863's, right?   ;D ;)

Upton's tactics superceded Hardee's in 1866 or 1868 as the conversion to Allin Conversions (pun intended) made a number of things unwork-able. Of course the loading sequence changes, but there were other differences as well. Shoulder Arms becomes Carry Arms; Right Shoulder Shift becomes Shoulder Arms; and in Upton's all the Manual of Arms evolutions begin at Order Arms.

But then, I was a Regular Army infantry reenactor (read "anal retentive about drill").  ;D

 :) Can You guess where I got my start in this game? I'll give you a hint; Same as you only IWP instead of CW ;) ;D



We actually did go through the manual of arms briefly for the purpose of muzzle control and saftey before starting the stage RCJ is talking about and my dog robber and I went first to deminstrate. My dog robber (striker) is my son who has been doing living history with me at Fort Hartsuff since he was 6 and started doing the manual of arms about then with a Parris Frontier capgun (stick on capbox removed so that it looked like Dad's M-1873) When he got big enough to fit into the smallest uniform the fort owned he joined our honor guards and was the most dependable soldier we had. Whenever I needed somone to deminstrate I used him.

If going to shoulder arms while facing forward the muzzle would be pointing backward behind the shooter towards their rear.

In this case Frenchie is talking about Hardee's shoulder arms which is the same as carry arms which puts the muzzle vertical. I think we did march out at "Present" but then came back at "Carry"  I thought I had a photo of it but the only picture I can find is after we had put the rifles on the rack. The only thing I remember for sure is how my ears burned going back to the bridge carrying ammo for the beliguered men at the "double" and hearing the spectators cheering us on with shouts of, "Gamer, Gamer!"  ;)


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Offline River City John

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #113 on: November 01, 2009, 08:11:54 am »
Frenchie, Didn't you leave out the loading evolutions? After all with Hardee's you're talking about 1861's and 1863's, right?   ;D ;)

Upton's tactics superceded Hardee's in 1866 or 1868 as the conversion to Allin Conversions (pun intended) made a number of things unwork-able. Of course the loading sequence changes, but there were other differences as well. Shoulder Arms becomes Carry Arms; Right Shoulder Shift becomes Shoulder Arms; and in Upton's all the Manual of Arms evolutions begin at Order Arms.

 :) Can You guess where I got my start in this game? I'll give you a hint; Same as you only IWP instead of CW ;) ;D



We actually did go through the manual of arms briefly for the purpose of muzzle control and saftey before starting the stage RCJ is talking about and my dog robber and I went first to deminstrate. My dog robber (striker) is my son who has been doing living history with me at Fort Hartsuff since he was 6 and started doing the manual of arms about then with a Parris Frontier capgun (stick on capbox removed so that it looked like Dad's M-1873) When he got big enough to fit into the smallest uniform the fort owned he joined our honor guards and was the most dependable soldier we had. Whenever I needed somone to deminstrate I used him.

In this case Frenchie is talking about Hardee's shoulder arms which is the same as carry arms which puts the muzzle vertical. I think we did march out at "Present" but then came back at "Carry"  I thought I had a photo of it but the only picture I can find is after we had put the rifles on the rack. The only thing I remember for sure is how my ears burned going back to the bridge carrying ammo for the beliguered men at the "double" and hearing the spectators cheering us on with shouts of, "Gamer, Gamer!"  ;)




Now I understand the difference . . . the position that holds the long arm upright against the shoulder along the supporting arm and with that hand gripping the wrist of the stock at the trigger guard, right?

Another reason I would love to have a quickie "School of the Soldier" instruction course applicable to the IW period.

RCJ
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Offline Texas Lawdog

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #114 on: November 01, 2009, 08:14:18 am »
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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #115 on: November 01, 2009, 08:25:29 am »
Now I understand the difference . . . the position that holds the long arm upright against the shoulder along the supporting arm and with that hand gripping the wrist of the stock at the trigger guard, right?

Another reason I would love to have a quickie "School of the Soldier" instruction course applicable to the IW period.

RCJ
Right!



Looks like we'll have one at the Dept. muster next summer. I'd also be glad to teach one at amy muster I can attend. If match directors want to include this just be sure to let me know so that I can bring my Sgt.'s uniform. (wouldn't be dignified and all for a Col. to be teaching the basic school of the soldier, you know?)  ;)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 08:38:13 am by Pitspitr »
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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #116 on: November 01, 2009, 08:26:24 am »
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
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Offline pony express

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #117 on: November 01, 2009, 08:52:39 am »
Looks like I might need to attend the school of the soldier too.....so I won't embarass myself by holding the rifle like an M-16 would be held......

Plus it's been 30 years since I did manual of arms with even the M-16, so chances are, I'd not get that right either.

Offline Frenchie

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #118 on: November 02, 2009, 10:21:40 am »
Yes, when I speak of drill manuals and the manual of arms, I mean Scott's, Gilham's, Casey's, Hardee's, et cetera. Who's this young Upton fellow and what makes him think he can write a drill manual any better than his elders? LOL!

Here are two links to Web sites on drill manuals, more can be found in Web search:

http://www.usregulars.com/

http://www.zipcon.net/~silas/links.htm
Yours, &c.,

Guy 'Frenchie' LaFrance
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« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 02:49:24 pm by Pitspitr »
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
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Offline captmack

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #120 on: November 24, 2009, 04:57:54 pm »
Check out my new Colt 1917 I will be using at next year's Pershing Match!
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Offline pony express

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #121 on: November 24, 2009, 07:20:42 pm »
Nice!

Offline Bow View Haymaker

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #122 on: April 29, 2010, 09:03:13 am »
I ead in the dispath on the Dept of MO muster that the new GAF guidlines for this type of match have been finalized.  What are they?  I don't emembe seeing a final vesion or list anywhee.  I know a bunch of diffeent ideas wee talked about but my old brain cells can't recall any orders being issued.  just asking for clarification Sirs.

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #123 on: April 29, 2010, 09:38:46 pm »
 :-[ Eh-hemm... Yes, well, I sort of jumped the gun on this particular line. I anticipated it taking me longer to finish writing the registration information and get it posted. Then when it didn't take as long as I thought I forgot to take out that line. :-[ General Scout has the Ordnance Dept.'s final recomendations and I anticipate his revisions will be released anytime. In the mean time Col. Drydock's answer sums up the main points. I might add that if you are using one early era weapon and one late period weapon you shoot in the late period class.

Pitspitr has the final rules, but I can give you the basics

Expansion era match: 3 catagories 1900-1917

-"Wild Bunch": CAS levers and 1911s
-"Early Expansion": Milspec rifles and revolvers, loose ammo reloads.  (Think Krags and DA Colts)
-"Late expansion": Milspec rifles and handguns, clip fed.  Revolvers may use 1/2 moon clips. (Mauser 1898s, 1903s, both 1917s, 1911s, etc)

Outfits to match the rifles, No WW1 specific items allowed.  (No tin hats or gas masks)

« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 09:45:34 pm by Pitspitr »
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Offline Bow View Haymaker

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #124 on: April 29, 2010, 10:37:59 pm »
Thanks for the update.  looks like I will work on a lead bullet .30-06 load for the 1917 enfield if I can figure the "outfit" part out. 
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