Author Topic: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions  (Read 36307 times)

Offline Pitspitr

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Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« on: October 18, 2009, 03:18:21 pm »
The Grand Muster Report thread kind of took off on the subject of the wild bunch and Wild Bunch uniforms so I formed it's own thread.


With so many excellent uniforms in appearance, we seriously need to begin considering awarding 1st, 2nd and 3rd place for both the field and dress uniform competitions at future Grand Musters, as well as establishing a more formal grading system so that everyone knows what is expected.  

Thank you for the kind words General.

Agreed about the uniforms. In fact several of us at the muster commented that with the outstanding uniforms at the wild bunch match, we may need to consider the possibility of judging the wild bunch uniforms as kind of a side competition.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 09:42:10 pm by Pitspitr »
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Offline Delmonico

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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2009, 03:31:12 pm »
Thank you for the kind words General.

Agreed about the uniforms. In fact several of us at the muster commented that with the outstanding uniforms at the wild bunch match, we may need to consider the possibility of judging the wild bunch uniforms as kind of a side competition.

I think that is a great idea.
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2009, 04:35:04 pm »
Thank you for the kind words General.

Agreed about the uniforms. In fact several of us at the muster commented that with the outstanding uniforms at the wild bunch match, we may need to consider the possibility of judging the wild bunch uniforms as kind of a side competition.


I had much the same thought myself while both watching the Wild Bunch stages and later on while flying to Arizona.  The high quality of the uniforms during the entire match is impressive, but that so many would go to the effort of putting together a ca. 1916 uniform for a side match is even more impressive.  I would welcome any ideas on how we can incorporate the WB side-match into our overall competition without detracting from the fact that we are primarily focused on the Victorian era. 

Perhaps we can just have a separate WB uniform competition without including it in the Battle Rifle (and thus Iron Trooper) competition.  The GAF is unique in the CAS-type hobby in that we give equal attention to the attire, as well as the individual firearms and shooting ability. 

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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2009, 05:38:43 pm »
I would say to continue to hold it as a friday side match, as we have done, and award a WB uniform medal/certificate.  I would NOT want it as part of the main match, we are too new to add distractions to the core of what we do (IMHO)
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Offline Dalton Masterson

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« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2009, 07:31:47 pm »
I agree with Drydock. Keep WB as a fun sidematch, and dont include it in with the main match. A separate WB uniform award would be a nice addition tho. The folks that go to all the work to look the part deserve something for their efforts.

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Offline Pitspitr

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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2009, 07:55:17 pm »
Yeah that was what I was saying
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Offline Texas Lawdog

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« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2009, 08:28:37 am »
The WB match is another one of the fun parts of the Muster.  The uniforms are an important part and they can stand on their own as part of the Uniform competition.
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Offline River City John

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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2009, 08:39:30 am »
Only inasmuch as the WB timeframe is later than our stated end date, I would like to see it remain as a fun side match where people can dress as accurately as the spirit moves them, but not expect any award for doing so.

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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2009, 09:41:39 am »
I like the idea of the WB side match sort of standing on its own.  It would be nice to see some sort of award, but it could be as simple as a certificate.  It doesn't need to be included in the criteria for the Brigade Champion award, but it might provide an arena for someone who can't afford a dress uniform, but wants to compete in both the shooting and uniform competitions.  The Wild Bunch stuff would seem to be a way better fit in this organization than SASS, especially the way we do it.  There were some great uniforms in the WB match at the Muster this year!
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2009, 10:05:41 am »
Keep those comments coming.  I am taking them ALL under consideration.

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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2009, 10:19:08 am »
Only inasmuch as the WB timeframe is later than our stated end date, I would like to see it remain as a fun side match where people can dress as accurately as the spirit moves them, but not expect any award for doing so.

RCJ 

John,

You're basically correct, as the GAF primarily focuses on the Indian Wars in the US, and the military in general during the Victorian era. 

However, the GAF uniform policy does permit a "Wild Bunch" uniform for those with an interest, primarily for the purpose of shooting in WB matches (to which I give credit to our Chief of Staff, Col Matt Lewis).  This caveat would also include the Marine expedition to Vera Cruz in 1914. 


6. Time Period. The Victorian-era, as defined for the GAF is between the years of 1860-1904, or as roughly equates to the black powder cartridge era.

a. Some leeway on the exact time period is permitted, depending on the member's individual interests but should not exceed that of the Crimean War (1854-1855) and the Pershing Expedition into Mexico (1916). Uniforms of the First World War are not authorized.

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Offline River City John

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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 10:34:58 am »
Only inasmuch as the WB timeframe is later than our stated end date, I would like to see it remain as a fun side match where people can dress as accurately as the spirit moves them, but not expect any award for doing so.

RCJ 
John,

You're basically correct, as the GAF primarily focuses on the Indian Wars in the US, and the military in general during the Victorian era. 

However, the GAF uniform policy does permit a "Wild Bunch" uniform for those with an interest, primarily for the purpose of shooting in WB matches (to which I give credit to our Chief of Staff, Col Matt Lewis).  This caveat would also include the Marine expedition to Vera Cruz in 1914. 


6. Time Period. The Victorian-era, as defined for the GAF is between the years of 1860-1904, or as roughly equates to the black powder cartridge era.

a. Some leeway on the exact time period is permitted, depending on the member's individual interests but should not exceed that of the Crimean War (1854-1855) and the Pershing Expedition into Mexico (1916). Uniforms of the First World War are not authorized.

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Let me restate then that I feel any Uniform competition should be reserved for the main Muster matches.
This opens up the interpretation/question- then can someone enroll and shoot the main stages in uniforms and arms of the 1911- 1914 period?
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2009, 11:03:28 am »
Let me restate then that I feel any Uniform competition should be reserved for the main Muster matches.
This opens up the interpretation/question- then can someone enroll and shoot the main stages in uniforms and arms of the 1911- 1914 period?

In my view, the uniform criteria for the main stages should remain limited to the Victorian era, in keeping with the mandated focus of the Grand Army of the Frontier.

I was one of the people who commented on the quality (and quantity) of "Wild Bunch era" uniforms this year, and suggested that with such thought and effort being expended on attire so specifically suited to what is admittedly just a side match, then perhaps a separate "side award" for those uniforms should be considered .... I do agree that certificate(s) or the like would be fine, and would hopefully enhance the Wild Bunch side match experience without diverting GAF in any way from its primary purpose.

If you think about it, the Wild Bunch concept is actually more closely associated with GAF's military focus than to the milieu of SASS, where it originated., and to my mind is accordingly a very appropriate "side match" for a Muster.  Having said that, however, it should remain entirely secondary  and/or supplemental to our Victorian-era military criteria.
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« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2009, 11:33:37 am »
In my view, the uniform criteria for the main stages should remain limited to the Victorian era, in keeping with the mandated focus of the Grand Army of the Frontier.

I was one of the people who commented on the quality (and quantity) of "Wild Bunch era" uniforms this year, and suggested that with such thought and effort being expended on attire so specifically suited to what is admittedly just a side match, then perhaps a separate "side award" for those uniforms should be considered .... I do agree that certificate(s) or the like would be fine, and would hopefully enhance the Wild Bunch side match experience without diverting GAF in any way from its primary purpose.

If you think about it, the Wild Bunch concept is actually more closely associated with GAF's military focus than to the milieu of SASS, where it originated., and to my mind is accordingly a very appropriate "side match" for a Muster.  Having said that, however, it should remain entirely secondary  and/or supplemental to our Victorian-era military criteria.


These is my thoughts as well, though I'm inviting GAF personnel to make known their opinions before any ruling is made.  So far it appears that most are of a similar opinion, though with some minor variations - all of which are useful.

We recognize the top shooters in the WB side match and I'm thinking we should also recognize those who put forth an effort in dressing the part as well.  WB shooting scores are not used for the Iron Trooper/Brigade Champion Award, nor should any WB uniforms. 

Likewise, we're now getting so many quality field and dress uniforms at the Grand Muster that we need to provide for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place awards - not just 1st place.  And we should probably be recognizing those who dress the part of the frontier scout, as opposed to the typical SASS/NCOWS cowboy/lawman/outlaw/townsman.

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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2009, 12:08:34 pm »
I would think a dedicated 2 stage sidematch on the friday preceding the main engagement is entirely in order, with its own awards and its own uniform requirements, is entirely appropriate.

Moreover, perhaps we should remake this sidematch in a GAF image.  Make it for the military arms of the era 1900-1916, ie prior to the involvement of the US in WW1. What I call the "Incursion era, Boxer Rebellion to the 1916 Mexican Incursion".  Rifle based, uniforms of the era associated with the rifles.  Here is where the SMLEs, the 03s, the Mauser 98s can come out to play.  Stripper clips, bloc clips, chargers allowed, period speed loaders for the wheelguns.

BUT ONLY AS A SIDEMATCH!  A walk down the historical path leading to our Victorian era Main Match.  Moreover we should then limit our sidematchs to a dedicated few.  Long range rifle, the WB, and perhaps a "School of the Soldier" should be offered.  Not much else, lest we spread ourselves too thin.

Perhaps this discussion should have its own thread?

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« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 02:36:37 pm by Drydock »
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Offline Niederlander

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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2009, 12:18:32 pm »
After reading my earlier post again, I think some may have gotten the impression I would want a Wild Bunch uniform competition included in the Iron Trooper award.  Not so!  I think the criteria for that should stay as it is now, with perhaps a second and third place added.  I do like the idea of a seperate Wild Bunch uniform competition to go along with the shooting, but keep it a stand-alone thing.  Field uniforms are usually less expensive to put together, so someone on more of a budget could compete for an overall award more easily in the Wild Bunch category.  It would in no way interfere with the Brigade Champion award.
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2009, 12:38:17 pm »
Ned, Those are my thoughts as well. I don't have the money for the expensive uniforms. I would rather have a field unifrom with period correct firearms than the fancy uniforms.
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2009, 02:24:02 pm »
Moreover, perhaps we should remake this sidematch in a GAF image.  Make it for the military arms of the era 1903-1916, ie prior to the involvement of the US in WW1.  Rifle based, uniforms of the era associated with the rifles. No "cowboy" rifles.  Here is where the SMLEs, the 03s, the Mauser 98s can come out to play.  Stripper clips, bloc clips, chargers allowed, period speed loaders for the wheelguns.

I very much like that general concept I can already envisage "mixing and matching" various firearms already in my 'arsenal'  - i.e. Ross or SMLE rifle .... and an even wider range of suitable handguns:  Mark V or VI Webley, Colt Government Model, Colt New Service, S&W Hand Ejector ......   ;D

However, I can see a bit of a problem with the General's thought that WWI-era uniforms would not be allowed ..... unless he was thinking solely in the US context.  Keep in mind that, by the end of 1916, the British Empire and the other major combatants (France, Belgium, Russia, Germany and Austria) had already been hotly engaged in the Great War hostilities for almost 2 1/2 years!  And for the most part, they entered  into that conflict in mid-1914 with uniforms, arms and equipment introduced at various times in the preceding ten or fifteen years .....

For example, the basic service uniforms, equipment  and weapons used by British and Empire forces throughout WWI originated in the 1902-1908 time period, following the Boer War .....  

In other words, care would be required in how any restrictions are formulated.

On the other hand, if the primary concern would be to avoid inclusion of items which are really "WWI-specific" - such as steel shrapnel helmets and respirators (gas masks) - I would certainly have no objection to that .... indeed, neither of those items of equipment were introduced for British Empire forces, at least, until 1916.
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2009, 02:30:32 pm »
That would be my thought as well, to avoid the WW1 Specific items found on the Western Front, such as the steel helmets, gas masks and such.  Most were introduced well into 1916,  mostly with the introduction of modern Chemical Warefare.  I think that would be fairly easy to define and police should need be.  

I think I should say I would not want to get rid of the "Cowboy" rifles per se, simply deemphasize them as we have in the Main match.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 02:35:46 pm by Drydock »
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Offline Dalton Masterson

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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2009, 03:01:16 pm »
I like your idea Drydock, of including weapons and uniforms up to WW1. It would allow the SMLEs to be used (a favorite of mine), as well as 1903s, G98s, etc. It would be a fun thing to see some of these girls work like they were meant to.

I dont mind getting rid of the lever action either, but if you do, I would not call it a Wild Bunch match, as that may lead to confusion amongst us SASS folks. I knew that I could bring my 73, my 1911, and my 97, and shoot the WB match at muster. If we disallowed levers, and still called it WB, we may have uninformed people showing up expecting to shoot with their levers, assuming that Wild Bunch rules apply.

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Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2009, 09:51:54 pm »
While the GAF and the Battle Rifle Classes have grown considerably, I don't believe we've grown to the point to where we can afford to take the chance of being viewed as "elitists" i would strenuously argue against eliminating the scout classes and it wouldn't make any more sense to eliminate the lever action classes from the WB match. After all the characters in the original movie that the match was named after use lever guns.
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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2009, 10:21:23 pm »
Folks,

Perhaps we are along the lines of allowing those "second generation" bolt guns and WW1 uniforms, but precluding steel helmets and gas masks. Handguns would allow for for Mauser Broomhandles, M1911 (only - no M1911A1a), Colt M1909, the various Webleys in His Royal Highness' Empire. Bolt guns would have the G98 Mauser, M1903 Springfield the SMLE, the M1891 Moisin or other military bolt gun made prior to 1916. Begging the pardon of Rattlesnake, yes, the Empire and other troops were involved in the "Great War" in 1914, but for this side match, being "Americentric" will allow a maximum of potential participation with a minimum of being the uniform police...
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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2009, 10:48:28 pm »
Do ya think that we could include my 1917 Eddystone?
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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2009, 07:56:29 am »
Lawdog,
       I doubt if the 1917 will work, as it's pretty Great War - specific, as are steel helmets, gas masks, etc.  I'm not the one who makes the call, but that would be an educated guess.
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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2009, 12:13:18 pm »
I would like to see Wild Bunch divided into two categories, 1911 & DA Revolver with an award for uniform as well.  That way you give out three certificates for the match.

both shooting classes would have to use a period correct Battle rifle with the separation being whether you shoot a 1911 (or other auto) or a DA Revolver i.e. a Colt M-1917.  Loading aids such as moon clips are to be allowed.  So you either drop a clip and reload or eject out your empties and pop in another moon clip loaded.

Those are my suggestions.

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