Black Powder Cartridge Information Needed

[Shotgun Steve]

Howdy Pards,

I have been searching the net for black powder handgun cartridge reloading books and have come up empty.
Does anyone know of one ?? And where I can purchase it?? I'm reloading for a .44 special Open Top and a 66' Yellowboy
Short Rifle. Since I have been shooting flintlocks for 30 + years I have a lot of fffg Goex black powder. So if no one knows
of a book to help how about some loads for the .44 special if you don't mind sharing.. I would really appreciate some help Pards.
Thanks in advance.

 Shotgun Steve

[Fox Creek Kid]

That's because you don't need a book for it. A lof of people use the Lee Precision plastic scoop set. The 1.3 cc scoop holds aprox. 20 gr. FFFg, etc. You need enough BP in the case that when the bullet is properly seated the powder column is compressed about 1/8", as a general rule of thumb. Remember, to use a properly BP lubed bullet that is sized correctly. That's basically it. You can play with primers & different BP's later on to find the "sweet spot".

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Like Fox Creek Kid says, loading cartridges with Black Powder is pretty simple. Dump in enough powder so that when you seat the bullet, the powder is compressed about 1/16"-1/8". Be sure to use a bullet with enough BP compatable lube on it. That's it in a nutshell.

However if you want a book, I have found that the series of books written by Mike Venturino about shooting old guns are the best source of information on loading cartridges with Black Powder that I have found. Mike has written four books. Shooting Colt Single Actions, Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West, Shooting Sixguns of the Old West, and Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West. These books are usually available on Amazon. The Buffalo Gun book is strictly about shooting single shot rifles and some of the loading information in it is pretty exotic. But the other three are perfect for our purposes. They all cover 'pistol ammo', 45 Colt, 44-40, etc. Each book has a chapter covering the general principals of loading cartridges with BP, and each book has loading data for the old cartridges, both Smokeless and BP. I just checked the Sixguns book, and it does not cover 44 Special, but the Colt book does. It doesn't really matter though, it's pretty much all the same with all the big bore pistol cartridges. I used the Sixguns book as my Black Powder primer. The only place I disagree with Mike is that he uses a drop tube for all his ammo. I find that for CAS ammo, a drop tube is unecessary. Its a different story with single shot ammo.

There is some question as to whether or not 44 Special was ever commercially loaded with Black Powder, since it was developed in 1907 for Smith & Wesson's New Century 44 Hand Ejector, the Triple Lock, a modern double action revolver. But in either case, 44 Special certainly performs well with Black Powder.

Just figure out how much powder you need so that when you seat your bullet, the powder is compressed a little bit. Then find a way to duplicate that charge. Lee dippers are a pretty good method, I used to use them for years before I invested in a Black Powder measure for my progressive press.

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[Shotgun Steve]

Thanks fellas I appreciate the information.  I knew it wasn't rocket science but I
thought I would check with those in the know to be safe.

Driftwood here is a little bit of info I picked up about BP being commercially loaded
in the .44 special. It dosen't give proof positive but check it out. Read the second
Paragraph. The link to the info below is at the bottom of the page.
 Take care and thanks.

Shotgun Steve

 


Comparing the .44 Special & .45 Colt

 

On other sites I have seen threads asking which is better, .44 Special or .45 Colt?  Answers rang out for and against each cartridge.  Frequently such threads do not define better for what purpose. Others specify hunting or defense as the frame of reference for "best." Though distinctly different cartridges, these two also share some common traits.

 

·         Both have been loaded with black powder as well as smokeless in more modern times. (Though introduced in 1907 or 1908 after the advent of smokeless powder, some factory loads indicated using about 26 grains of black powder in the .44 Special.  The older .45 Colt hit the ground running in 1873 and was originally a black powder round.)

 

·         Both cartridges' maximum performance levels are partially set by the firearms they are to be fired in.

 

·         Both cartridges have magnum counterparts, .44 Magnum and .454 Casull.

 

·         Both cartridges are capable of very fine accuracy and both are rimmed and intended to be used in revolvers, at least initially.

 

·         Neither cartridge has received the R & D in bullet performance as has 9mm, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.

 

·         Both cartridges are loaded to relatively low SAMII maximums: 15,500 PSI for the .44 Special and 14,000 PSI for the .45 Colt.  (For comparison, .44 Magnum has a maximum SAMII approved pressure of 36,000 PSI while the .454 Casull is rated at 50,000 CUP.  If interested in a discussion on PSI vs. CUP, information can be found at: http://www.reloadbench.com/gloss/cuppsi.html )

 

·         Both cartridges have been extensively reloaded.

  http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Comparing%2044%20Special%20to%2045%20Colt.htm

[Dick Dastardly]

You've got it Shotgun Steve.

Both posts above will get you "on the paper".  After that you can do a number of things if you feel that you want more accuracy, much as you can with your ML guns.

Your Goex FFFg is a good place to start for Genuine Powder.

Once you find that "sweet" spot, you'll learn that it has a pretty wide envelope.  There's no need to weigh each charge etc.

I load both 44 Special and 44 Magnum rounds for my RVs and Browning 92s.  They frequently take bonus targets on stages that have them with no different ammo needed.

Glad to see you here on the wire.  Keep asking questions.  Never a stupid question, however some answers are suspect. . . .

DD-DLoS

[Fiddler Green]

Lymans puts out a Black powder reloading book in soft cover.

Bruce

[w.b. masterson]

I load approxiamately 28 grains of black powder by weight (no, I really use a scoop that contains about 28 grains).  I don't use the Lyman scoops because I'm concerned about static from the plastic.  Lyman makes a black powder dispenser with a brass cylinder to avoid static if you want more production.

BAT

[El Peludo]

This bunch can set ya' pretty straight, Steve.  In this game, however, there are as many "opinions" as there are folks to give 'em; I like to read what these fellers say, and put it in my bucket of things to keep in mind - I can sort through and find something of interest or apropriateness (sic) wheneveer I need to.  I often feel that a lot of guys tend to "overthink" black powder loading, given that there are a lot of young fellers getting into it, and they have been raised in a more complex and precisely measured world.  But, as the old saw goes:  "It ain't rocket science!" - unless, of course, you want it to be.

If you are a tinkerer, one easy way to make a suitable measure is to take a piece of brass that you cant load any longer, and use it to scoop your powder.  Try it out until you get the right amount of compression, and cut the "measure" off at that point with a hacksaw, solder or braze a handle onto it made out of a piece of 1/8" or so brass or copper (brass is stiffer), and you're shinin'.  For an example: I found that a .38Spec case is just about right for charging .357 Mag loads.  The same is likely true for .44 Spec/.44Mag.; just about any old ca'tridge case can be cut off for the purpose, though.  Kind of a low tech approach to the subject.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I use LEE scoops, old cartridge cases, and my adjustable muzzleloading powder measure.

Here's a link to THE DARK ARTS, cheap tricks;

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9463.0.html

[Corkscrew Tom]

I found this website very helpful when I started loading BP last year. Hope it helps.
Corkscrew Tom
www.davidscottharper.com/shoot/BP_for_CAS.htm

[Driftwood Johnson]

w.b. masterson:

I don't believe Lyman makes plastic dippers, I believe you are referring to the dippers made by Lee. I worked in the electronics industry for many, many years, and can quote you all kinds of chapter and verse about static electricity. Static charges are directly proportional to the surface area of the object in question. Although I will not go out on a limb and state that it is absolutely impossible for a static discharge to ignite Black Powder, I used Lee dippers for years. I assure you, they are too tiny to develop enough of a charge to ignite anything, including Black Powder.

[Bryan Austin]

You've got it Shotgun Steve.

Both posts above will get you "on the paper".  After that you can do a number of things if you feel that you want more accuracy, much as you can with your ML guns.

Your Goex FFFg is a good place to start for Genuine Powder.

Once you find that "sweet" spot, you'll learn that it has a pretty wide envelope.  There's no need to weigh each charge etc.

I load both 44 Special and 44 Magnum rounds for my RVs and Browning 92s.  They frequently take bonus targets on stages that have them with no different ammo needed.

Glad to see you here on the wire.  Keep asking questions.  Never a stupid question, however some answers are suspect. . . .

DD-DLoS

I can tell when my questions are stupid. When Driftwood or Dick has not replied to them!

[Bryan Austin]

This bunch can set ya' pretty straight, Steve.  In this game, however, there are as many "opinions" as there are folks to give 'em; I like to read what these fellers say, and put it in my bucket of things to keep in mind - I can sort through and find something of interest or apropriateness (sic) wheneveer I need to.  I often feel that a lot of guys tend to "overthink" black powder loading, given that there are a lot of young fellers getting into it, and they have been raised in a more complex and precisely measured world.  But, as the old saw goes:  "It ain't rocket science!" - unless, of course, you want it to be.

If you are a tinkerer, one easy way to make a suitable measure is to take a piece of brass that you cant load any longer, and use it to scoop your powder.  Try it out until you get the right amount of compression, and cut the "measure" off at that point with a hacksaw, solder or braze a handle onto it made out of a piece of 1/8" or so brass or copper (brass is stiffer), and you're shinin'.  For an example: I found that a .38Spec case is just about right for charging .357 Mag loads.  The same is likely true for .44 Spec/.44Mag.; just about any old ca'tridge case can be cut off for the purpose, though.  Kind of a low tech approach to the subject.

How about a 38-40 for a 44-40? Try it and let me know!

[Delmonico]

w.b. masterson:

I don't believe Lyman makes plastic dippers, I believe you are referring to the dippers made by Lee. I worked in the electronics industry for many, many years, and can quote you all kinds of chapter and verse about static electricity. Static charges are directly proportional to the surface area of the object in question. Although I will not go out on a limb and state that it is absolutely impossible for a static discharge to ignite Black Powder, I used Lee dippers for years. I assure you, they are too tiny to develop enough of a charge to ignite anything, including Black Powder.

Driftwood, just as a FYI, I took one of those Piezo (sp) ingnighters out of one of my wifes lighters that she does candles with,  Rigged it up to a piece of brass plate and but a bit of BP on the plate.  Try as I might, I could not set it off, even putting the spark right through a small pile of powder.  

Did manage to zap myself but it didn't set me off either.

[Shotgun Steve]

Thanks again fellas!!! I appreciate all the info you have provided me with.
I have my cases cleaned and primed and I will be loading a box of 50 up tonight.
Take care Pards.

 Shotgun Steve

[Noz]

Corkscrew, I had never seen that website before. Some real good information.

[Montana Slim]

I could be alone on this, but I simply use a powder dispensing measure such as the Lee Autodisk for my pistol cartridges, Lyman 55 (std model) for my big-bore rifle cartridges and the MEC dispenser that came with my 600 JR.
I am a daredevil, though 
Must be charmed to have lived this long 

Regards,
Slim

[Fingers McGee]

Corkscrew, I had never seen that website before. Some real good information.

New one to me too.  I'll have to add it to my Soot Lord Information list

FM

[Mako]

New one to me too.  I'll have to add it to my Soot Lord Information list

FM

That's Abilene's site, he's a regular here and especially over on STORM.  I'm surprised you haven't seen that before, that's a pretty old page.  The pictures that looks most like him today is the one with the bugle (and he does use it at matches) or the one with the '73 carbine slung over his shoulder.

~Mako

[Fairshake]

Yes that site has been available for a while, some of us have honey do's and shooting to do. John Boy on Open Range did a static test that is posted for all to see. It shows what Delmonico stated about his test. The powder did not ignite. DD uses a standard measure and says stay in your comfort zone, I agree 100% and that's why I have two BP measures. One is a Lyman which stays setup for my shotsheels and the other a RCBS that's mounted on my 550. My luck is such that I could be hit by a Greyhound bus while climbing MT. Everest; everyone would say now where did that bus come from? Use what you feel good with and go with it. Later David