66 Caliber question

aalmcc4 · December 31, 2008, 11:50:39 AM

I want to get a WInchester replica 1866 24" rifle. I don't want a 45 Colt (which is all I can find locally without special ordering) I hear the 45 Colt caliber does not seal right and there is a lot of blow back. I don't want a 44-40 either.

I want one in 44 spl. (Closest to 44 Henry which is manufactured) Are they still made in 44 spl? Does the 44 spl experience the sealing and blowback prolems like the 45 Colts?

Another question, I heard that the ones in 44 spl barely feed and function. Is that true? I want something that functions out of the box. I will shoot blk powder cartridges out of it. I'm not a CAS shooter, so it will not see "hard use". Help!

ColonelFlashman · December 31, 2008, 12:18:59 PM

Unfortunately the only calibres I've ever seen the "66" chambered for in the 30+ years that I've known about the repros, is .38 Special, .44WCF, .45 Colt's. If any Repro "66"s do exist in .44 Special, they've been rebarreled by a gunsmith privately.

Books OToole · December 31, 2008, 12:32:26 PM

Quote from: ColonelFlashman on December 31, 2008, 12:18:59 PM
If any Repro "66"s do exist in .44 Special, they've been rebarreled by a gunsmith privately.

Well, thats not quite right. (Sorry Col.) Bufalo Arms & Cimmaron both offer a .44 Special '66.
A .44 special '66 is on the top of my want list.
I have had no problems with my .45 LC '66 and it is a great shooter.
But, I can tweak a .44 Spl and it will shoot .44 Russians. And that is about as close to the original .44 Henry round with a lot of expensive work.

Books

ColonelFlashman · December 31, 2008, 12:41:34 PM

Buffalo Arms & the Current incarnation of Cimmaron Arms haven't really been around all that long, so if they offer a "66" in .44 Special, it's a S/O item for them or they do the coversion themselves. None of the current Itie Repro catalogs that I've had access to List a .44 special as being available.

Will Ketchum · December 31, 2008, 01:44:27 PM

I have a 66 in 44 spl that I have had altered by The Bullet Hole (they advertiise inthe NCOWS magazine ) It is a SRC. I have a friend who owns a short rifle 66 in 44 spl. He does NOT want to sell it.

Will Ketchum

Sod Buster · December 31, 2008, 01:46:07 PM

Although they are not listed on Texas Jacks website, a visit to Cimmeron's site shows the 1866 chambered for 44 Special in three different barrel lenghts:

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/RepeatingRifles/1866.htm#

CA219 - 24"
CA217 - 20"
CA218 - 19"

Abilene · December 31, 2008, 03:46:31 PM

The guns advertised by Buffalo Arms are Cimarrons. Cimarron started importing the '66 and '73 in .44 Spcl in 2001 and it has been a regular stock item since then. In those earlier years they were not made in large quantities but in the last few years they are easy to find. At the current moment, there are .44 Spcl 1866 rifles in stock in 24" in both standard finish and charcoal blue, in 20" in charcoal blue only, and they are currently out of the 19" carbines.

The guns work just fine out of the box. One exception to that statement is that the loading gates on the '66 are problematic, as the cartridge stop tab has a habit of breaking off. It can be reinforced or the loading gate (aka Ladle) can be replaced with an aftermarket part that is less likely to break. My .44 Spcl 20" yellowboy was purchased in 2001 and has about 5000 trouble-free rounds through it.

Yes, the .44 Spcl does have the same BP blowby fouling issues as the .45LC, but in practice this is really not a big problem. Just takes a few extra wet Q-tips to clean out the carrier area after shooting. And if you shoot enough on a dry day that the carrier, or elevator, starts to stick then just give it a spritz of anything wet. Some folks spritz it with ballistol or moosemilk, I usually just use plain water - works fine.

A lot of folks shoot the .44 Colt in their .44 Spcl '66 and '73. If you don't load it too short, it usually works fine although some rifles need a little tweaking due to the smaller rim of the .44 Colt. And now that there is a special aftermarket modified carrier available, .44 Russian can be shot in it as well.

Colonel Flashman, perhaps you are thinking of the .44 Spcl 1860 Henry. Only a handful of these were imported around 5 years ago (Cimarron got 9). Hopefully some more of those will be made at some point.

kurt250 · December 31, 2008, 07:39:24 PM

got a 44 spl. yellowboy lastyear from buffalo arms. had a 1860 henry in 44 spl. both now have a anderondac jack cartridge carrier so both shoot 44 russian. work fine, but don't like the blow back. thats why my 2009 project will be to get a henry and a yellowboy barrels in 44 russian. have several lines open to get this done. if is get them( correction) when i get them i will sell the 44 spl. barrels. will let you know when there ready for sale. kurt250

Will Ketchum · December 31, 2008, 08:44:17 PM

Kurt, I think you will have the same problem with blow back. It is due to the straight walled case. The orginals used copper cases which expanded more and sealed the breech better. I think this is why Winchester went to the bottle necked case in the 44-40 to help seal the breech with a brass case....I could be wrong about this but it is what I have always felt.

Will Ketchum

ColonelFlashman · December 31, 2008, 09:06:36 PM

Don't foreget that those Cases back then were also Balloon Head as well, which makes a real difference.

kurt250 · January 01, 2009, 01:54:22 AM

i'm sure your right will. hoping that aproperly head spaced chamber would cut down on some of it. also anneling the case would also help i think. anyone have comments on that. also how do you do that? kurt250

Dusty Morningwood · January 01, 2009, 11:46:44 AM

Quote from: ColonelFlashman on December 31, 2008, 12:18:59 PM
Unfortunately the only calibres I've ever seen the "66" chambered for in the 30+ years that I've known about the repros, is .38 Special, .44WCF, .45 Colt's. If any Repro "66"s do exist in .44 Special, they've been rebarreled by a gunsmith privately.

My 66 came from the factory in .44 Special. Buffalo Arms has them in stock. So just special order it. That way you get what you want. Also, Adirondack Jack's modified carrier for the .45 Cowboy Special lets you shoot .44 Russian in the .44 Special guns. Even closer to the original .44 Henry Flat in size, if not capacity.

Hoof Hearted · January 01, 2009, 10:04:43 PM

Quote from: Dusty Morningwood on January 01, 2009, 11:46:44 AM
My 66 came from the factory in .44 Special. Buffalo Arms has them in stock. So just special order it. That way you get what you want. Also, Adirondack Jack's modified carrier for the .45 Cowboy Special lets you shoot .44 Russian in the .44 Special guns. Even closer to the original .44 Henry Flat in size, if not capacity.

Dusty

How long do you think it will be before you "take the plunge" and modify a 45 caliber Henry to accept the same load as yer other heel base pistols

Mine works SUPER shot both Russians and Colts today with my new Flat bullet

Had a guy offer me an 1866 in 44 Special and actually declined the darned thing. I did trade for an early 66 Carbine in 44/40 that has no lever latch and that funny skeletonized hammer. I got big plans for this'un!

HH

Dusty Morningwood · January 02, 2009, 06:59:27 AM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 01, 2009, 10:04:43 PM
Dusty

How long do you think it will be before you "take the plunge" and modify a 45 caliber Henry to accept the same load as yer other heel base pistols Mine works SUPER shot both Russians and Colts today with my new Flat bullet

Had a guy offer me an 1866 in 44 Special and actually declined the darned thing. I did trade for an early 66 Carbine in 44/40 that has no lever latch and that funny skeletonized hammer. I got big plans for this'un!

HH

Man HH, don't give me any encouragement! Since those posts by Halfway Creek Charlie and Ottawa Creek Bill (?) about this kind of thing, I have considered it. But I do not think my pistolas (.44 Open Tops) would shoot the heeled bullets.

Driftwood Johnson · January 02, 2009, 07:24:58 AM

Howdy

The fact that the 44-40 case is a slight bottleneck has nothing to do with its superior sealing abilities. The key is the thinness of the brass at the case mouth. 44-40 brass tends to run around .007 thick at the case mouth. 45 Colt (and 44 Special too) tends to run around .012 thick at the case mouth. That's what makes the difference. At the relatively low pressures generated by 45 Colt and 44-40, the thinner case mouth of the 44-40 naturally expands better to seal the chamber. The taper on the 44-40 round is so slight it can barely be called a bottleneck at all. In fact, high pressure gas has no problem at all sneaking around a slight corner like that presented by the taper of the 44-40 round. It is the thinness of the brass that makes all the difference.

The 44 Henry round was a copper cased rimfire round. Rimfire rounds are made out of thin material out of necessity. If the metal is too thick, the firing pin will not be able to dent the rim well enough to get a reliable ignition, so the case walls must be thin. That would contribute to the chamber sealing ability of the 44 Henry round.

I have some old Remington balloon head 45 Colt brass and they are running around .010-.011 thick at the case mouth. Although I have not loaded them with Black Powder and fired them in a rifle, logic tells me that they would not seal much better than modern solid head 45 Colt brass.

Hoof Hearted · January 02, 2009, 08:20:02 AM

Quote from: Dusty Morningwood on January 02, 2009, 06:59:27 AM
Man HH, don't give me any encouragement! Since those posts by Halfway Creek Charlie and Ottawa Creek Bill (?) about this kind of thing, I have considered it. But I do not think my pistolas (.44 Open Tops) would shoot the heeled bullets.

Mine was Charlies (at least parts of it was). I have all the bugs worked out and I'm fixing the case of uglies it picked up in it's travels

Those "open tops" would have to have .451 bores for sure (and throats).

HH

Dakota Widowmaker · January 02, 2009, 11:02:58 AM

It would be a simple thing to anneal a bag or two of cases just for your BP rifles.

Alternatively, using 44-40 cases fireformed to 45lc would work as well, provided your extractor can handle the larger rim.

Lastly, and I have seen a few folks talk of this, is to chuck the case in a Lee shell holder for trimming, and then use a really small brake hone to open it up on the inside. This is WORK and not for the beginner. I know of a 66 shooter who's 45lc SRC works like clockwork with these cartridges. You can bet your last dollar he is policing his brass after every shoot.