Author Topic: Guns of the Darksiders  (Read 328036 times)

Offline Dirty Brass

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #225 on: February 11, 2010, 08:43:08 am »
Now that there is a pretty specimen! It looks remarkably similar to a JPMoore & Sons I picked up years back as a wall hangar, but yours is in beautiful condition. Nice! ;)

Offline Marshall John Joseph

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #226 on: February 11, 2010, 07:53:19 pm »
I have cabin fever due to all this snow, so I went to Borders Books to hang out while my wife ran some errands. Got a short "edumacation" by reading Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms and Their Values.

Seems that Garrison Joe (on the Wire) was right on the money, "Sounds like a Belgian trade gun, imported by H. and D. Folsom Company of New York, imported and sold as a fairly cheap double in the 1890s." It seems that H. and D. Folsom Co. imported Belgium shotguns and had the distributor's names put on them, for instance Sears, Montgomery Wards, a particular hardware store, or department store. H. and D. also imported them with their own "brand", U.S.Arms Co., for distribution to stores not wanting their name on them.

Many of these shotguns were "cheap" in the respect that their target buyer were hunters - field/utility grades, but were still well built and not "cheap" in quality. Others were an attempt to duplicate features of higher priced shotguns, to which prices reflected those features, eg. higher grades of wood, engraving, or "damascus patterns". Fladerman's also goes into different features - pros and cons. Backlock actions, for example, may have been less expensive, but not necessarily inferior. Side levers were just one "style" that gave way to top levers, again not necessarily "cheap", just different.

The term "damascus" is given to the type of manufacture - patterns and material varied. This was how barrels were made with the technology of the time - again not cheap, suitable for the BP cartridges of the time. They just could not handle the pressures of the new smokeless powder.

Obviously, quality was dependent on the manufacturer/supplier to H. and D. It was noted that H. and D. Folsom Company of New York was one of the largest importers of shotguns in the U.S., especially from Belgium, to which many were utility grade. Lack of basic quality, like delamination of barrels, would not allow the company to continue selling the quantities they sold. Plus Sears and Wards had a reputation to uphold.

From descriptions of features, my shotgun was very probably manufactured prior to 1900. The fact that it has lasted all these years and still locks and operates as it should attests to it's quality - for its application - BP. NEVER SHOOT SMOKELESS IN THESE SHOTGUNS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR THAT APPLICATION. Flayderman's states that some of the best manufacturers continued with damascus barrels FOR BLACK POWDER into the 1900's, even as fluid steels became common.

Sorry for the long winded response, but I had to write it down before I forgot. 

Thanks to you all.  ;D

MJJ

Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #227 on: February 12, 2010, 01:03:38 pm »
That sure is a fine lookin' under-lever double, pard!

Have fun shootin the black stuff.  You'll look like you stepped right out of an old photo!
"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"        

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Offline Border Ruffian

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #228 on: March 30, 2010, 05:19:48 pm »
My 1851 Navy and Confederate gun belt.



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Offline Abilene

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #229 on: March 30, 2010, 10:41:52 pm »
Howdy Mr. Ruffian,
you sure that is a '51?  Sure looks like a round barrel and it's a little hard to tell from the pic but looks kind of like a rebated cylinder as well.

Offline Dr. Bob

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #230 on: March 30, 2010, 11:51:57 pm »
Abilene,

Ya know, they make a .44 cal. with those features that they call a 51 Navy.  Kinda like calling a pig a cat!  :o  ::)  Nothing wrong with the gun, just what they call it!
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #231 on: March 31, 2010, 11:09:49 am »
I hear ya, Dr. Bob, but all the .44 "1851's" I've seen (Piettas) either have octagonal barrels, or the round barrel models still have the flat-sided back end on the barrel, not the curved '60 or '61 style back end.  Perhaps some other manufacturer makes one, though.  Hey, Border Ruffian, is that Navy a .36 or .44?  Manufacturer?  Just curious.  Looks nice, anyway.  Thanks.


Offline Fingers McGee

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #232 on: March 31, 2010, 11:36:54 am »
It's definitely an 1860 Army.  Backstrap is blued, not brass, grip is longer than an 1851, cylinder looks to be rebated, and the  frame looks to be cut.

FM
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Offline Border Ruffian

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #233 on: April 01, 2010, 04:38:14 pm »
My 1851 Navy and Confederate gun belt.





Holy Cow!!! That is my 1860 Army!!  I copied the wrong image code!!!! Gettin old ain't for sissies!!!!
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Offline Border Ruffian

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #234 on: April 01, 2010, 04:40:31 pm »
This should be my 1851 Navy

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Offline Fingers McGee

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #235 on: April 01, 2010, 10:34:28 pm »
Quote from: Border Ruffian
Gettin old ain't for sissies!!!!

I can identify with that.  :o
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee;
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Offline Fingers McGee

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New addition to the armory
« Reply #236 on: April 21, 2010, 06:54:11 pm »
Latest acquisition, blank cylinder Uberti L&R made in 2007. 



Now have a pairof them.  The other one is from 1977.  Both of them get shipped off to the gunsmith to get 6 more bolt cuts on the cylinders, defarbed, and remarked like this original Augusta revolver from 1864.



Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee;
SASS Regulator 28654 - LTG; NCOWS 3638
AKA Man of many Colts; Diabolical Ken's alter ego; stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman/Pistoleer; Rangemaster
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"Cynic:  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees thing as they are, not as they should be"  Ambrose Bierce

Offline Border Ruffian

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #237 on: April 24, 2010, 10:41:52 am »
This should be my 1851 Navy



It's a .36 Pietta, late 1990s vintage.
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Offline Seamus

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #238 on: April 27, 2010, 02:14:38 pm »
Howdy Lads,

Here is a link to pictures of my .577 Snider Carbine.  This is the Britich version of the Springfield Trapdoor. 

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Britain/PortugeseSnider.htm

You should see the smoke & hear the roar when it lets loose with 60g of 1f under a 500+ grain conical.  It really makes the targets ring.  My favorite Plainsman firearm.

Seamus 

Offline Fingers McGee

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Latest acquisition.   US Army Tribute Colt Model 1851 Navy Percussion. Part of the American Military Colt Collection, that was produced in 1984 by the American Historical Foundation.  There were U.S. Air Force, U.S. Navy, and U.S. Marine Corps tribute revolvers also produced as part of the collection all of which were made from 2nd Gen Colts.  This one is made from a C Series 2nd Generation Colt Percussion revolver that was made in 1977 and is #20 of 100 Army Tribute revolvers produced.  Gun is gold plated except for the screws, wedge, trigger and hammer. 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee;
SASS Regulator 28654 - LTG; NCOWS 3638
AKA Man of many Colts; Diabolical Ken's alter ego; stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman/Pistoleer; Rangemaster
Founding Member - Central Ozarks Western Shooters
Member - Southern Missouri Rangers; Moniteau Creek River Raiders, The Ozarks Posse, Butterfield Trail Cowboys
NRA Endowment Life: GOA; CCRKBA; SAF; SV-114 (CWO4 ret); STORM 327

"Cynic:  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees thing as they are, not as they should be"  Ambrose Bierce

Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #240 on: May 04, 2010, 06:08:44 am »
Fingers, that sure is easy on the eyes!  That's outstanding!  Congratulations!  Next question:  what load will you be using?  The 25 grain full-power with conical, or the lighter 17-20 grain loads with the roundball?

 :o

 ::)


 ;D   ;)    ;)
"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"        

SEE MY PHOTOS: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/m1a1mstrgn/
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Take me out to the black, tell 'em I aint comin' back. Burn the land; boil the sea: you can't take the sky from me. Have no place I must be; since I found Serenity:  you can't take the sky from me.
by Joss Whedon 2002 - Firefly

Offline Fingers McGee

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #241 on: May 04, 2010, 07:21:45 pm »
Fingers, that sure is easy on the eyes!  That's outstanding!  Congratulations!  Next question:  what load will you be using?  The 25 grain full-power with conical, or the lighter 17-20 grain loads with the roundball?

 :o

 ::)


 ;D   ;)    ;)

I was thinking the conical might be the way to go with this one.  Of course, they'll be gold plated  ;D
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee;
SASS Regulator 28654 - LTG; NCOWS 3638
AKA Man of many Colts; Diabolical Ken's alter ego; stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman/Pistoleer; Rangemaster
Founding Member - Central Ozarks Western Shooters
Member - Southern Missouri Rangers; Moniteau Creek River Raiders, The Ozarks Posse, Butterfield Trail Cowboys
NRA Endowment Life: GOA; CCRKBA; SAF; SV-114 (CWO4 ret); STORM 327

"Cynic:  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees thing as they are, not as they should be"  Ambrose Bierce

Offline Desert Drifter

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #242 on: May 10, 2010, 07:01:04 pm »
Well, I'll see if I can post a couple of pictures without embarrassing myself this time.  This is a restored 1874 Sharps sporting rifle caliber 40-70 BN, 24 1/2 inch 1/2 octagon 1/2 round barrel.









Hopefully they come out.

'Drifter

Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #243 on: May 11, 2010, 08:08:38 am »
Absolutely gorgeous, Drifter!
"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"        

SEE MY PHOTOS: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/m1a1mstrgn/
NCOWS #1919 for Life, SASS Life #27463, NRA Life, Honourable Master of the Black Arts, GAF#98, SBSS, WARTHOG, STORM, American Legion Post # 495
*and a few other organizations*
F.&A.M. - Wayne Guthrie Lodge #753 *** Hiram's Rangers #105
(former) US Army M1 & M1A1 Tank Master Gunner
AKA - Jeff Bailey  A Three-Percenter & Sheepdog

Take me out to the black, tell 'em I aint comin' back. Burn the land; boil the sea: you can't take the sky from me. Have no place I must be; since I found Serenity:  you can't take the sky from me.
by Joss Whedon 2002 - Firefly

Offline Border Ruffian

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #244 on: May 11, 2010, 03:57:04 pm »
Looks great, Why did the 1874 models have a patchbox?  I thought those were only needed on the percussion models.
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Offline Desert Drifter

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #245 on: May 11, 2010, 04:28:47 pm »
I'm with you Ruffian.  I thought the same way.  The rifle is an original Sharps, but I dont think it is original to the way it was shipped from the factory.  I've came to accept that stocks could have been swapped out.  The rifle is what, 130 years old?  Alot could have been replaced in those years. 

Thanks for your comments gents,

'Drifter

Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #246 on: May 13, 2010, 06:21:52 am »
It was a matter of esthetics, gents.  That was not at all uncommon, back in the transition era.  The riflemen of the day were used to seeing a patchbox (and were handy to carry more than just patches in them) so several of the rifles made during the changeover from percussion to cartridge had the decorative patchboxes included.  The "Officer's Model" of the Trapdoor Springfield had the same.  As did the H&R reproductions.

Ruffian, you said the KEY part:  "I thought those were only needed on the percussion models."

Needed, vs. wanted.

Drifter, I think you'll find that it was NOT added at a later date, rather it may have been REPLACED back to original configuration.


I'm not an expert, but from what I've seen in my research, the Officer's Model of many of these different rifles included the patchbox, as well as SOME of the first cartridge models AFTER the percussion guns.
"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"        

SEE MY PHOTOS: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/m1a1mstrgn/
NCOWS #1919 for Life, SASS Life #27463, NRA Life, Honourable Master of the Black Arts, GAF#98, SBSS, WARTHOG, STORM, American Legion Post # 495
*and a few other organizations*
F.&A.M. - Wayne Guthrie Lodge #753 *** Hiram's Rangers #105
(former) US Army M1 & M1A1 Tank Master Gunner
AKA - Jeff Bailey  A Three-Percenter & Sheepdog

Take me out to the black, tell 'em I aint comin' back. Burn the land; boil the sea: you can't take the sky from me. Have no place I must be; since I found Serenity:  you can't take the sky from me.
by Joss Whedon 2002 - Firefly

Offline Desert Drifter

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #247 on: May 15, 2010, 06:15:02 pm »
I found out more about my Sharps today.  It is called an "A" model.  It mas made between 1879-1882.  This is a time when Sharps was in financial trouble and assembled rifles with parts on hand.  Most of the rifles were sold to J.P. Lower and Carlos Grove, two gun outiftters in Denver at the time.  This one was one of Lower's.  The 24 1/2" half octagon barrel is correct for an "A" model.  Along with the forestock and butt stock.  The patchbox could certainly come with an "A" model also.  There is a letter "A" cartouche on one of the side plates of the action.  Makes me feel some better now that I know a little more about it.

'Drifter

Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #248 on: May 15, 2010, 07:24:53 pm »
I found out more about my Sharps today.  It is called an "A" model.  It mas made between 1879-1882.  This is a time when Sharps was in financial trouble and assembled rifles with parts on hand.  Most of the rifles were sold to J.P. Lower and Carlos Grove, two gun outiftters in Denver at the time.  This one was one of Lower's.  The 24 1/2" half octagon barrel is correct for an "A" model.  Along with the forestock and butt stock.  The patchbox could certainly come with an "A" model also.  There is a letter "A" cartouche on one of the side plates of the action.  Makes me feel some better now that I know a little more about it.

'Drifter


It's REALLY interesting when you can find out history this specific about your OWN gun!  Cool!
"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"        

SEE MY PHOTOS: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/m1a1mstrgn/
NCOWS #1919 for Life, SASS Life #27463, NRA Life, Honourable Master of the Black Arts, GAF#98, SBSS, WARTHOG, STORM, American Legion Post # 495
*and a few other organizations*
F.&A.M. - Wayne Guthrie Lodge #753 *** Hiram's Rangers #105
(former) US Army M1 & M1A1 Tank Master Gunner
AKA - Jeff Bailey  A Three-Percenter & Sheepdog

Take me out to the black, tell 'em I aint comin' back. Burn the land; boil the sea: you can't take the sky from me. Have no place I must be; since I found Serenity:  you can't take the sky from me.
by Joss Whedon 2002 - Firefly

Offline Short Knife Johnson

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Re: Guns of the Darksiders
« Reply #249 on: May 15, 2010, 10:40:52 pm »
That is also an outstanding restoration job.  The stamping is not degraded one bit.  I've seen re-dos were the preservation of the roll stamping was the last thing in mind.