Author Topic: '76 Muskets in Hawaii  (Read 4091 times)

Offline DJ

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 273
'76 Muskets in Hawaii
« on: April 08, 2008, 03:45:35 pm »
I recently became aware that a significant proportion of the 1876 Winchester muskets was shipped to Hawaii to arm the royal Hawaiian forces in the early 1880's.  Houze discusses this in his book ("The Winchester Model 1876 Centennial Rifle") at some length, and then mentions that about half of those muskets have been identified by serial number in the records of the Citizens Guard of Hawaii (apparently a militia group formed or reactivated after the Hawaiian royal family was deposed). 

Does anyone know where this list is published?  Houze cites to a periodical, I believe it is "The Winchester Collector," but he never clearly says if the serial number list is actually published there.

Thanks--

DJ


Offline Buck Stinson

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 706
    • Old West Reproductions, Inc.
Re: '76 Muskets in Hawaii
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2008, 10:02:48 am »
DJ,
John Bell published a list of all the guns used by the CGH.  This list includes '76 carbines, muskets, 1886 rifles, 1885 High Walls, etc.  I have the list but can't find it.  I may be able to get another copy from a friend.  I'll let you know.  Unfortunately, records are incomplete and in many cases, serial numbers are not listed.  I'll let you know.

Adios,
Buck
« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 07:15:35 pm by Buck Stinson »

Online john boy

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1486
Re: '76 Muskets in Hawaii
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2008, 06:17:49 pm »
Gundata has this but no serial numbers ... http://www.gun-data.com/winchester_model_1876.html
Regards
SHOTS Master John Boy

WartHog ...
Brevet 1st Lt, Scout Company, Department of the Atlantic
SASS  ~  SCORRS ~ OGB with Star

Devote Convert to BPCR

Offline Buck Stinson

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 706
    • Old West Reproductions, Inc.
Re: '76 Muskets in Hawaii
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2008, 07:44:19 pm »
DJ,
I have the information I was looking for on the CGH 1876 Winchesters.   There is way too much to include here, so please tell me exactly what you are looking for and I will let you know.

Adios,
Buck

Offline DJ

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 273
Re: '76 Muskets in Hawaii
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2008, 04:38:29 pm »
Hey Buck--

Thanks for the offer.  I don't have the SN memorized (I did once, but I think that part of my mental disk got overwritten).  I'll go find it again and PM it to you.

Thanks--

--DJ

Offline Ken_from_Hawaii

  • Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: '76 Muskets in Hawaii
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2019, 01:23:24 pm »
Hi Buck,

I think I may have a CGH 1873, any chance you might be able to help with my serial number too?  I found that Mr. Bell had passed away, and haven't had a chance to hit the Hawaii state archives yet.  Anyone happen to have information from John A. Bell?  Thanks!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 06:34:24 pm by Ken_from_Hawaii »

Offline DJ

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 273
Re: '76 Muskets in Hawaii
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2019, 08:19:17 pm »
Ken--

The archives are pretty cool--a small, rectangular, modern glass-and-stainless steel structure under a MASSIVE banyan tree on the grounds of Iolani Palace, with the assorted doves, parrots, small birds, and mynahs flying, flittering, running, jumping, squawking, and squabbling all around (those who have spent any time watching mynah birds in Hawaii know what I mean).

A few years ago I copied all of the info I could find regarding old firearm serial numbers out of the archives.  They're not very well organized (the 1876s are the best), and require some interpolation, but I'd be happy to look and see if yours is among them.

--DJ


Offline Ken_from_Hawaii

  • Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: '76 Muskets in Hawaii
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2019, 11:23:11 pm »
Hi DJ,

I just went yesterday, and you're right that the 1876 info is the most complete.  A lot of the 44 carbines listed don't have serial numbers.  I believe the serial is 372665B.  Thank you for any assistance with this.

Offline Buck Stinson

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 706
    • Old West Reproductions, Inc.
Re: '76 Muskets in Hawaii
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2019, 08:30:53 pm »
Ken,
I do not have any listings for the model 1873 as being CGH issue firearms.

Offline Baltimore Ed

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
Re: '76 Muskets in Hawaii
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2019, 09:44:48 pm »
I don?t guess my musket went to Hawaii as it dates from 1891. Neat old rifles.
"Give'em hell, Pike"
 There is no horse so dead that you cannot continue to beat it.

Offline DJ

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 273
Re: '76 Muskets in Hawaii
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2019, 10:47:05 am »
The records I reviewed are for the Hawaiian military, including the Citizen's Guard, during the period between about 1888 and 1898 and possibly a few years after that (the records are primarily unit rosters with many "commissioning" dates in 1897 and 1898, so it stands to reason that the records may have been used for at least a brief period after 1898).  In the rosters, assigned or "possessed" weapons (a small proportion of the listed arms are recorded as privately owned) are usually listed by the manufacturer's name and the caliber, but not model.  Winchesters listed as .45-75 are presumed to be 1876 models because of the caliber and serial number range. 

There are listings for quite a few 45-70 Winchesters which seem likely to be either 1885 single shots or 1886s.  There are also scattered listings of "44" caliber Winchesters.  I feel that one, SN 19495 in "44" caliber, is probably a .73--the serial number would make it an 1876 manufacture if it were a '73.  It seems less likely to be an 1866, which would have been manufactured in 1868--somewhat out of synch with most Hawaiian guns, though not impossible.   Another isolated listing, Winchester SN 463699 in .44 caliber, also seems likely to be an 1873.  There is a listing for a "38" caliber Winchester SN 2384.  I would guess this was a .38-40 Model 1873, but a Model 1885 in .38-55 might also make sense (a Winchester expert  might be able to figure it out).  There's another Winchester listed as caliber "38-45," SN 63939.  Any guesses?  Another example, listed as a "Winchester carbine," caliber .44, SN 643051 doesn't make sense to me--if it was an 1873 model, it would seem to fall outside of the date range for the records I reviewed, but I don't see another model it would likely be.  I believe this weapon is recorded more than once in the records, so perhaps less likely to be a "typo," but could be.  Serial number 19806 and 220111, both in "44" caliber, seem likely to be 1873s, although the lower number would also make sense as a model 1892. 

One particularly interesting unit for purpose of the Model 1873 discussion, the "Mounted Reserve" of the Citizen's Guard lists 40 Winchesters of "44" caliber, most of which are recorded as government-owned.  A few entries do not list a serial number, some list 4- and 5- digit serial numbers, but about three quarters of them fall within the serial number range from 431661 to 471242.  From the date range calculator I've been using, these could be 1873s (manufactured between 1892 and 1894, which would be an appropriate date range), and perhaps the number is great enough to show up as a bulk purchase in the Winchester records.  Quick!  Somebody go look! 

As with many things, history often involves educated (more or less) guesswork, so I could be completely off base and would welcome any corrections.

--DJ