Author Topic: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....  (Read 26506 times)

Offline Icebox Bob

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2007, 10:34:52 AM »
I spent yesterday at the Saskatoon Hobby and Gun show.  Some of us local CAS types are working on a registered provincial non-profit association to promote our hobby in Saskatchewan and we had a booth set up.  (S.A.W.W.S. = Saskatchewan Association of Wild West Shooters)

As soon as I get the time  (tonight or tomorrow) I will do some close up photographs of the five 45/75 cartidges I bought; all with different headstamps (four unfired and one fired).  I'll get out the calipers and measure them as well.

I chatted with a NWMP collector/afficianado who mentioned that the oldest cases are the ones with no headstamp.  I have one of those but I am a little suspicious it may have been reloaded, not an unlikely possibility.  That fellow has bought and sold about 10 NWMP carbines over the years  and was quite impressed with the details of my Chaparral. 

There was another collector with an original NWMP there.  I did take pictures but had to borrow a camera, so it may be after the weekend before I can get those pictures.  It was the same pattern as our Chaparral.

Regards,
and in rememberance,

Icebox Bob
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2007, 12:28:14 PM »
I currently have one loaded original .45-75 cartridge headstamped D.C.Co. (Dominion Cartridge Company) and another without any headstamp.  At one time I also had a loaded example of one of the only two years of D.C.Co. NWMP contract cartridges which were identifiably marked as such.  As you may know, during the years 1899 and 1900, Dominion marked the cartridges they sold to the NWMP with numbers flanking the primer - '9 9'  and '0 0', respectively.  I had an unfired  '0 0' marked cartridge, but in a moment of weakness sold it to a NWMP collector ... for which I now regularly (and quite soundly) kick myself, of course.     :-\   :'(   ::)

However, one fascinating little artifact which I do retain is a slightly flattened original .45-75 cartridge case (unmarked, fired) which was kicked up  by a friend over 20 years ago, on a local golf course built on part of a local feature (an area formed by a very large loop in the South Saskatchewan River) known since the founding of Medicine Hat as "Police Point" because it was the site of the original NWMP post, from 1883 through 1891.  Among other things, they had a firing range at that post ... which I believe they continued to use after they moved the barracks to the same side of the river as the rest of the town, in 1891, so this cartridge admittedly could have ended up there somewhat later than that date.  Interesting "souvenir", in any event.


Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
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Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2007, 07:50:15 PM »
A golf course!!!
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Offline Grizzly Adams

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2007, 10:37:28 PM »
Hi, Jack.

Here is a pic of an original WW 45-75 round.  Case length is 1.89 and OAL is 2.25.



I reload  the 45-75 for an original short rifle (as made "for the English trade.).

 
I have found that I can shorten the brass (cut and reformed 348) to 1.85 and seat the 457122 bullet out to 2.295 and still have it function in my action

.

I don't know if that is true of the Chaparral 76. 

I do have a Uberti 76 in 45-60, and it will only function with an OAL of 2.25.  It is a simple enough matter to seat the bullet over the crimp band, and with BP, it is no problem.  For smokeless I use a Lee Factory Crimp die.

FWIW, the original Winchester reloading tool, which was non-adjustable, will seat the bullet for an OAL of 2.25 in both the 45-75 and the 45-60.

Good luck
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Offline Icebox Bob

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2007, 11:15:33 PM »
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I picked up 4 unfired rounds stamped: W.R.A.CO., U.M.C., D.D.CO.,and an unmarked one Friday night. The fellow I talked to indicated that the unstamped one is likely the oldest as they were issued in the 1880's.  He also mentioned that the DCCO ones without the 99 and 00 that Rattlesnake Jack refers to are older than 1899.

I have measured them and the fired round.  I measured;
W=base to top of rim (Rim thickness),
X= base to shoulder,
Y= base to bottom of neck,
Z=base to top of neck (overall length of brass) and
OAL of complete round. 
I also measured;
A= the diameter of the rim,
B= diameter of the base (at the rim),
C= diameter at the shoulder,
D= diameter at the base of the neck and
E= diameter at the top of the neck (not the crimp). 
I have also included the measurements from the technical diagram in Rattlesnake Jack's post above for reference.  (I'm going to have to learn how to properly post a table sometime)

              W      X         Y        Z         A         B         C         D         E   OAL
UMC   .0585   1.073   1.307   1.853   .6195   .558   .543   .481   .477   2.240
WRA   .059   1.076   1.262   1.881   .626   .562   .548   .479   .474   2.268
DCC   .061   1.071   1.261   1.878   .621   .561   .540   .478   .478   2.248
Unst   .057   1.100   1.281   1.858   .626   562   .543   .482   .482   2.236
Fired   .059   1.087   1.293   1.881   .623   561   .548   .481   .477   ---
Tech1   .058   1.038   1.338   1.880   .620   562   .549   .481   .472   ---
Tech2   .062   1.042   1.342   1.885   .629   564   .551   .4832   .476   ---

(By the way there is an error in the dimensions on the 45/75 diagram in Jack's post.  The diameter at the base of the neck is probably .481-.4832 and not .581-.5832.)
And here are the pictures of the four complete rounds.


I suspect that the unstamped one has been reloaded.  There is a distinct bulge on one side at the base of the bullet that you may be able to see in the picture. 
The base of the unstamped one and the DCCO one are rounded.  The edges of the rim on the DCCO and the WRA are square whereas the rims of the other two have a slight angle.

Hope this is useful
Icebox
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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #25 on: Today at 03:23:12 PM »

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2007, 09:10:20 PM »
OK;  So I have the .348 cases.  I used the smallest size of tube cutter to shorten 5 to about 1.9+".  Next I straigtened the "turn-in" left by the tube cutter with a C-H .30 to.375 expanding stem. 

Now I am getting nervous!  At $1 per case I don't want to lose any!

What is the recommended next move?

I plan on annealing with a propane torch very soon.  Do I size to .45-75 and fire-form, or do I try to expand the neck with progressively larger neck expanders?
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Offline Grizzly Adams

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2007, 11:51:22 PM »
Sir Charles.

Your next move is to progressively expand the neck of the cases.  FWIW, C&H Tool and Die can provide a set of three expander plugs that do this nicely.  Make sure you lube the inside of the neck and expand in steps or you will split cases.



This is what you will be looking for.  After expanding the neck, you simply shorten and run the case through your 45-75 FL sizing die.   


Cut them long, at about 1.90+ or so, as they will shrink a bit with the first firing!  Final length should be 1.89.

A good fire forming load is 21.5 grains of 5744 - or a full case of the Holy Black.  Whatever you use, you will get a little bulge in the case about 1/4 inch above the rim.  This is one of my reloads with the original factory round.  Note the bulge!



It is not a problem, and will eventually go away with subsequent firings.  The 348 brass is pretty tuff stuff, and will last you a long time if you process it properly.
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Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2007, 08:52:45 AM »
Thanks Griz;  I have the .30-.37 expander, and will try to complete the set.

Your short rifle looks fine.  I've seen a John Rigby marked '73 with extra length round barrel.
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Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2007, 10:19:03 PM »
I just noticed that my LEE dies seem to size the neck down to .466.  When a .457 dia. Gould HP bullet is seated the neck diameter stretches out to a normal .480.

This sounds like excessive neck sizing?  By about ten thou' 

How are others doing?  Should I contact LEE?
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
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With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline Grizzly Adams

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2007, 09:09:51 AM »
I just noticed that my LEE dies seem to size the neck down to .466.  When a .457 dia. Gould HP bullet is seated the neck diameter stretches out to a normal .480.

This sounds like excessive neck sizing?  By about ten thou' 

How are others doing?  Should I contact LEE?

Everyone's in the same boat, Sir Charles.  Welcome to the Brotherhood of the 1876! ;)

http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35302

Here is Hobie's blog which contains a wealth of info regarding the state of the art.

http://home.comcast.net/~parslowb/labels/45-75.html
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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #30 on: Today at 03:23:12 PM »

Offline dutchy

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2007, 03:52:53 PM »
Thanks for the information and photos of this firearm.
 I am a retired member of the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) and enjoy any and all photos and stories on the men , equipment and times relating to the NWMP (North West Mounted Policeand the RNWMP ( Royal North West Mounted Police
Thanks again
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Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2007, 07:06:34 PM »
Howdy!

Dutchie, welcome!  Forgive my ignorance, but isn't the RCMP, NWMP, RNWMP - the same?  I assume the difference depends on the time period.  Or do I need to do MUCH more studying?  ;D
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2007, 09:23:15 PM »
Well, pretty much the same ....

The North West Mounted Police were established in 1873, with the daunting task of policing the vast North West Territories, sovereignty over which had been acquired in 1870 from the United Kingdom and the Hudson's Bay Company, by the fledgling Dominion of Canada -



As you can see from the above map, the newly acquired area (mauve) dwarfed the original Dominion.   The very small initial area (orange) of the new Province of Manitoba - the former Red River Colony - was carved out of it immediately, but it included all of the present-day Provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan, and most of the present-day area of Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec.  British Columbia became a Province in 1871, but the Colony of Newfoundland did not become a Province of Canada until 1949.   An extremely vast territory, indeed, to be entrusted to a Force established with an initial strength of only 275 men, all ranks!

Settlement was still extremely sparse at that time, however ... concentrated along the two main branches of the Saskatchewan River in the southern portions of present-day Saskatchewan and Alberta.  As the population increased and spread, so did the size and distribution of the Force ... including the policing of the Yukon Gold Rush in and after 1898. 

In recognition of significant services by the Force during the Second Anglo-Boer War, in 1904 King Edward VII granted the title "Royal" to the Force (an honour which, in the British Empire/Commonwealth can only be bestowed by the reigning monarch) making it the Royal North West Mounted Police.  However, its jurisdiction remained limited to the North West Territories ...

In 1920, the Force absorbed the Dominion Police (the relatively small federal governement policing agency for the rest of the country) to become the first truly national police force with jusisdiction throughout Canada ... under a new name: the Royal Canadian Mounted Police ...

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2007, 10:40:10 AM »
Thank you, Sir!
"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"        

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Take me out to the black, tell 'em I aint comin' back. Burn the land; boil the sea: you can't take the sky from me. Have no place I must be; since I found Serenity:  you can't take the sky from me.
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Offline Grizzly Adams

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2007, 10:21:03 AM »
With two manufacturers now producing fine replicas of the 1876, maybe it is time to create a "clearing house" for information about this model.  There is much to learn/relearn about loading for these rifles, and it would be great to have a place for owners of the 1876 to meet, discuss and share their experiences with the 1876.  The good Marshall is willing to consider a new Society for the 1876 if there is enough interest. :)

If you would be interested in having a board devoted to the 1876, check out, and sound off on the thread I posted in the Longbranch.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,17799.0.html

....and no, there ain't no decoder ring! :D
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Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Re: Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine ....
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2007, 01:18:56 PM »
With two manufacturers .... (and so on - SHB)

....and no, there ain't no decoder ring! :D


Well, that leaves ME out!  ::) ::)

Uh, that and no 1876 or hope of ever having one, that is.  :P

What about a secret handshake? ;)
"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"        

SEE MY PHOTOS: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/m1a1mstrgn/
NCOWS #1919 for Life, SASS Life #27463, NRA Life, Honourable Master of the Black Arts, GAF#98, SBSS, WARTHOG, STORM, American Legion Post # 495
*and a few other organizations*
F.&A.M. - Wayne Guthrie Lodge #753 *** Hiram's Rangers #105
(former) US Army M1 & M1A1 Tank Master Gunner
AKA - Jeff Bailey  A Three-Percenter & Sheepdog

Take me out to the black, tell 'em I aint comin' back. Burn the land; boil the sea: you can't take the sky from me. Have no place I must be; since I found Serenity:  you can't take the sky from me.
by Joss Whedon 2002 - Firefly

 

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