2nd Generation Colt: Honestly better?

[Dusty Morningwood]

I am considering buying some 2nd Generation Colt Navies. I know they were made in Italy [assembled in US?], but not who made them. I have heard that fit and finish are superior to Pietta's and Uberti's current offerings, but overall quality-wise, are they really worth the extra money? Since I want to shoot them, can it HONESTLY be said that they perform and hold up better than an Uberti? Forget the name, just the function. Thanks!

[St. George]

If they're 'true' Second Generation guns - and not the 'Signature Series' ones - buy them.

Their fit and finish are great - and they'll have value long afterwards, whereas the later revolvers won't, and are valued like the standard Italian clone - especially if used.

The 'real' Second Generation Colts 'will' letter to Colt - the others will not.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Here your info on 2nd Gen. Colts From The Blue Book Of Modern Blackpowder Arms.

COLT´S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC.  Current firearms manufacturer with headquarters located in West Hartford, CT.
Colt´s Manufacturing Company, Inc. is the previous manufacturer of 2nd Generation Colt percussion revolvers located in Hartford, CT. Colt used subcontractors to supply rough castings for the manufacture of these black powder pistols. Throughout the production years 1971-1982, these rough castings were produced in Italy and the reproductions were completed in the United States. Initially, Val Forgett and Navy Arms provided these parts/components during 1971-73. Lou Imperato supplied these parts from 1974-76. In both instances, these revolvers were assembled and finished in Colt´s facilities in Connecticut. Finally, from 1978-1982, Colt subcontracted both parts procurement and final production to Lou Imperato and Iver Johnson Arms in Middlesex, NJ. Colt percussion revolvers produced by Iver Johnson had frames, center pins, nipples, and screws manufactured in the United States. In all instances, these revolvers were manufactured in accordance with Colt´s strict specifications and quality control. Additionally, Colt´s performed final inspection for all models. All percussion models manufactured from 1971 through 1982, either by Colt or its subcontractor, are regarded as authentic Colt pistols and not Italian replicas.
The Colt Custom Shop also produced a limited number of special editions through the early 1990s from 2nd Generation production inventory. (Colt 2nd Generation models in the white are still known to exist.)

And the Third Gen Info from the same source.

COLT BLACKPOWDER ARMS CO.  Previous manufacturer and retailer of 3rd Generation Colt Black Powder pistols and muskets located in Brooklyn, NY 1994-2002.
All 3rd Generation Colt blackpowder models are also referred to as Signature Series Models.
A reprise of the original Colt Blackpowder line, along with historic models not offered in the 2nd Generation, and a new series of Commemoratives, each model (with the exception of the Heirloom Tiffany 1860 Army and 1842 Texas Paterson) bears the Sam Colt signature on the backstrap. These 3rd Generation models were manufactured under an authorized licensing agreement with Colt Firearms by Colt Blackpowder Arms Company – the same company (and many of the same craftsmen) responsible for the 2nd Generation Colt revolvers. Although parts for the Signature Series were cast in Italy, they were fully assembled and hand finished in the United States using the proprietary Colt formulas for bluing and color case hardening.
Colt Blackpowder Arms Company Signature Series revolvers are regarded as authentic Colt pistols. The 3rd Generation models have original Colt markings, including the barrel address and serial number stampings. There are no foreign proof marks on these authentic Colt models.

I own a 4 digit 2nd Gen "C" series 1851 Navy and I'll tell you this gun has not been fired or turned when I got it. I dissassembled it to clean the 34 year old grease out of her and I stoned the action, it has been turned now but you cannot tell it.
Lay it next to a new Uberti or Pietta and there is NO comparison. Plus these are REAL COLTS!
How does it shoot? I don't know I haven't shot it yet but hope to tomorrow.

I love this '51 Navy so much I'm lookinf for a 4 digit mate for her. They'll be my Colt Thelma and Louise.

[Dusty Morningwood]

With SN of 174**, what year was this 2nd Gen. 51 made?

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

 C Series Serial number range 4201-25099. Mfg. 1971-78

My guesstimation, and it is a SWAG.
By dividing the total number made by 7 (Years of production)= approx 3585 a year.
Subtracting your s/n (17,XXX=17,000)from the total gives 2 years plus production numbers. I'd say  late 1975 or early 1976. There is no way to know exactly because there are no proofs and I have not seen any Colt litature that gives these numbers by years of production.

However! Colt will sell you a letter on you 2nd gen and that should tell you it'year of production. I didn't know Colt would letter the 2nd Gen pistols but I read that somewhere. After all they are REAL COLT"S.

[Long Johns Wolf]

If you are looking at a shooter you may want to consider one aspect that is often overlooked. When Beretta took over Uberti a couple of years back significant money was invested into new machinery and quality control for cowboy guns, just to mention a few areas. However, more important for us shooters was and is Beretta's undisputed and apprecicated production know how when it comes to barrel making IMHO.
Bootsie

[Dusty Morningwood]

Thanks Bootsie.  That is something to consider for sure.  I rarely think about resale on my guns.  I do have some antiques that will appreciate, even if I shoot them.  But it seems to me, though I may be wrong, that the 2nd Gen. Colts, if shot much, will at best hold theur value. 

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Here are the current blue book prices on 2nd Gen Colt '51 Navy 1st model(squareback tg.
From the Blue Book of Modern Blackpowder Arms.
1851 NAVY "C" SERIES
- .36 cal. perc., 7.5 in. octagon barrel, hinged loading lever and six shot cylinder with roll engraved naval battle scene, "C" Series Royal Blue barrel and cylinder, color case hardened frame, loading lever, plunger, and hammer, silver plated brass backstrap and square back trigger guard, one-piece walnut stocks, 42 oz. This is the first series of second generation 1851 Navy revolvers produced. Serial number range 4201-25099. Mfg. 1971-78.
Grading   100%   98%   90%   80%
      $550      $450      $350       $250
Last MSR was $200.
Note: The prices quoted above are for "C" Series 1851 Navy revolvers with wood grain cardboard box and styrofoam insert. "C" Series 1851 Navys with the early SAA style black flip top box in excellent condition command a $100.00 premium (serial number range 4201 to 5199). "C" Series 1851 Navys with the tan and brown flip top box in excellent condition command a $50.00 premium (serial number range 5200 to 12999).

[Dusty Morningwood]

So if I read the Blue Book right, I buy a LNIB 2nd Gen. for $500.  Shoot it like I do my other CAS guns and a year later it is worth $350 - maybe.  Buy same Uberti for $275.  If I take good care of it, a year later I might get $200 for it - maybe.  I have also not buggered up what some might consider to be a collector's item.

[Flint]

No information in Colt literature, but there is in others.  R.L. Wilson's book on Colts puts 1974 as the year for 51 Navies starting at serial number 10801 and 1975 starting at S/N 15101.

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

It's a tough call.
Depending on what you want. Depending on how much you shoot. Do you want a Colt Colt? or do you want a Colt copy?
If you shoot a lot. The Uberti would be the best bet and you can buy two for the price of a Colt Colt.

I shoot my Originals, but only once a month, and then, not each one each time. I trade off months. I do not buy the 98% originals(cannot afford them at all), nor the 80% ones. I buy the 50%-70% ones or less. At 50%-70% you don't shoot the value out like you would with the higher % guns.

I have the same dilema with my 2nd Gen Colt. It is very very nice. Unfired to date and as close to NIB(origianl box and paperwork, unfired and unturned) as can be. Probably 98% or better but I don't have the original box or papers.It did come in a presentation case with the accourtrements(non-Colt). It was a showpiece for 35 years.The 35 year old nylon tie wrap disinegrated when I tried to cut it. I doubt that I'll shoot $150.00-$200.00 out of it in a year or two or even 3, but it is something to think about.

[Deadeye Dick]

I just purchased a 2nd generation Colt 1851 Navy, S/N 77##. supposedly built in 1971. It came in a box that reads " Colt's 1851 Navy". It is not the typical black or brown Colt box. I think this may have been one of the first made. Did yours - Halfway Creek Charlie- come in a different style box? Mine reads Colt's Patent Firearm's Manufacturing Company, Inc. and is whiteish tan in color. I also have a 2nd generation fluted 1860 Army that came in Colt's black 2nd generation box. It is an "F" series. I have a Uberti for shooting, but am getting antsy to shoot the 2nd generation models. The 1860 is new and unturned. The 1851 is unfired and has been played with.

[Dusty Morningwood]

OK, I bit the bullet (kinda) and bought a 2nd Gen. 51 w/SN 174**.  Does not have the box or papers (estate sale).  Got a good deal - $299 shipped.  So that places it well within my comfort level to shoot the heck out of it, since I just paid a total of $294 for a Uberti Civilian 61 Navy.

[Marshal Deadwood]

Dusty,,dat aint a bad price hoss !

Im on the look-out for a secn-gen Colt '60Army. Iv seen a few..but at 800 give or take,,,well,,honeslty,,just cant afford that,,,,but if I find one more reasonable,,,yeppers...would love to have one. Did find one third gen signature but,,iv heard some things,,,so I dont know. Acutally, it would be the easiest one for me to get,,gent wants to trade for a rahter nice fly outfit i have...and the '60 is new,,,turned but unfired,,box and all that stuff.

Who knows...ummmm

Marshal Deadwood   *who dont really fish much anymore

[Dusty Morningwood]

Howdy Marshal:
Yeah, I think I did OK on this.  As to the Sig. Series, I have heard they have some quality issues and are Colts in name only.  But I have no personal experience with any of these - just the Italian clones.  But if you can get a good Sig. Series 1860 in a trade for something you don't really need, then you might come out ahead.  What say the forum?

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Dusty,
You DID GREAT!

MD,
Sounds like a good deal to me.
The 3rd Gen's were made by some of the same craftsmen that made the 2nd Gen. They were made the same way and inspected by Colt.
I think the 3rd Gen gets a bad rap because of the SAA Peacemakers that were so much junk.

Just check it over. It'll be a different color Blueing than the 2nd Gen. If you can check it out really well then Go for it if you think the trade is a good one. I just dont care for Saml's name on the backstraps and prefer the 2nd Gens in 4 Digits if I can find one.

[dogngun]

I don't want to dispute with anyone, but I'd like to know the source of your information on the Colt re-issue BP revolvers.
My understanding is that the parts were made by Uberti in Italy, shipped to Arkansas to be finished and assembled by Iver Johnson, marked and marketed as Colts. I never heaqrd of any of them being made from parts made in the US-my understanding is that ALL parts were made by Uberti.
My information came from quite some years ago, and I'm no longer sure of the source. Again, I'm not disputing anyone, I'd just like to fine out where you found this information.

Thank you very much.

Mark

[Major 2]

here is the skinny according to Dennis Adler for Guns & Ammo.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/cap_ball/


MD ...if you ain't fishin, then go shootin    jump on it !
I had two 3rd. Gens. a 51 & a 60  they were quite nice...
I have 3 2nd Gen.s ( I've owned 4 one a 3rd. Dragoon was stolen ) I shot them all.

During the 3rd Gen. run there was even a Colt marked Springfield (as Colt made M1861 under contract for the Union)
Parts were supplied by Armi Sport... they will bring a premium price from reenactors for the correct marks.

[Coltsmoke]

Hi Guys, just joined up, been on some of the other forums a couple of months,been hanging out here in the background.I have a 2nd gen. Colt 1851 I took out of the box and started shooting Friday.Shot her 60 times, had a blast,ha!Ha! It is a 4 digit gun,made in 1973,in the 97xx range.Go to GunRunner Auctions.Com and pull up item#865609695 and you see the gun.Notice the case hardened barrel wedge,I have never seen this before,but that is what it has.I found a couple of problems when I shot it. I also bought a 3rd gen.Colt 1860 Army,had no problems with it,none at all. I bought a Uberti World Class 1858 stainless,the model with the engraving,had a couple of problems with it also.Quality wise I don't think I can put one above the other,but I'm new at this pistol thing,I think I'm hooked forever.I have a 2nd gen. Colt Walker on the way,it should be here Wednesday of next week.The blueing is different between the 2nd & 3rd gen. but both look good to me,the 2nd gen. looks a little darker.Are they worth the extra money,I don't know,I guess it is a personel thing.I didn't want to buy another make then start wishing I had bought a Colt,but I know me,and that is what would happen, so I just bought Colts.This probally didn't help answer the question,just thought I would stop in and introduce myself.I'll be back when the Walker arrives.                                                 

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

HA Ha I know you !! Ha Ha. by another name and you know me by another name also. Welcome to the STORM board andf I'm glad you bought the Second Gen.



Halfway Creek Charlie AKA Old Dragoon