Author Topic: GAF MILSPEC/BATTLE RIFLE STANDARDS.  (Read 22539 times)

Offline Drydock

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GAF MILSPEC/BATTLE RIFLE STANDARDS.
« on: February 27, 2007, 01:16:24 PM »
Final configuration, though I continue to welcome advice and suggestions.  This is placed to provide information for those interested in using these weapons in a GAF format.

 I would like to point out that this is NOT always a class in and of itself, but a set of standards for the use of these type weapons in a GAF match, outside of the usual Cowboy style classes.  This may be broken up by action or powder type at the descretion of the Match director.  Or it could be run as a single class if numbers so warrent.

-Milspec weapons of the late Victorian era, 1865-1901

-RIfles will be MAIN BATTLE RIFLES and CARBINES, utilizing CAS spec ammunition.  Lead bullets of weight no more than 405 grains, velocity less than 1400 FPS. Calilbers greater than .501 may use up to a 480 grain bullet. Rifle calibers of .32 or less may use gas checks at the match directors discretion.  (Call ahead!)  Examples would be, but not limited to: Krags, Spencers, Trapdoors, Sniders, Enfields, early Mausers. Handguns would be milspec, or of demonstrated military use, related in period to the rifle used.  The rifle is the determing factor here.

-NOTE-  Handguns are related IN PERIOD to the rifle used.  It is understood that some handgun/rifle combinations may be difficult to impossible to achieve.  Reasonable substitutions are allowed.  Officers of the period often purchased their own sidearms.  (Notice I say "Handguns"?  Thats right.  Broomhandle fanatics be warned: NO stripper clips.  You ain't outrunnin' anybody. For you DA revolver types, no loading aids of any type.)

-Rifles/carbines must be in a military configuration, military caliber.  Example:  the 1895 Winchester is allowed, if in military configuration, chambered in .30 US (.30-40 Krag) Lever action rifles with tubular underbarrel magazines are specificaly not allowed.  There will be other classes for them.

(reasonable caliber subsitiution may be allowed on a case by case basis.)

-Dress must Attempt to be military, matching the weapon used.  Don't show up dressed for the Rough Riders carrying a Mauser.  Full or partial uniforms are fine, Scouts, field expediencey, and irregulars are recognized. (caveat:  you want to be an irregular, you better have some provenance that shows you to be a fair representation.)  Ladies may adhere to the above, or perhaps better to dress appropriate to the period, with some military "accessories".  Perhaps a Kepi, corded Slouch, or officers sash.  For ladies wishing to really go all out, I would suggest watching John Fords "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon".

-Era single shots, ie trapdoors, Martini Henrys, Rolling blocks, are encouraged, loaded to spec.  Course of fire may be different from that of the repeaters at the match directors discretion.

-As a technical limitation, No stripper clips/loading aids allowed.  All repeating weapons(rifles AND handguns) will start with no more than 5 rounds.  Reloads have no limit.  All reloads will be of loose ammo, from appropriate belts/pouchs/pockets, no aids of any kind.  Loading aids may be used to charge the weapon prior to stage start, but none will be used in the stage itself.

-Modifications allowed: None.  Springs may be replaced/lightened, existing parts polished to improve trigger pull, thats it.  Parts may be replaced only to repair/return to Milspec.

-Don't come to me about the Turks using 1866s at Plevna.  Know it, don't care, plenty other venues for those.  This is for Main Battle rifles.  Henrys and 66s were the submachine guns of their era.


EXAMPLES OF ACCEPTABLE RIFLES.

Not final, research ongoing. South American variations on the Comblain are endless!  Where not mentioned, it is expected that these will be in military configuration.  Please submit weapon suggestions by PM for evaluation.  If it was accepted for military service prior to 1902 I'd like to know about it.  Weapons must use a self contained cartridge with integral primer.  IE no muzzleloaders, or breechloaders requiring a seperate percussion cap.

Milspec replicas, such as the various Trapdoor Springfield replicas from H&R and Pedersoli, are recognized.

CARCANO 1891

COMBLAIN-VARIOUS FROM 1870
 
ENFIELD     .303 MAGAZINE LEE-ENFIELD
ENFIELD     .303 MAGAZINE LEE-METFORD MARK 1
ENFIELD     .303 MAGAZINE LEE-METFORD MARK 1*
ENFIELD     .303 MAGAZINE LEE-METFORD MARK 2
ENFIELD     .303 MAGAZINE LEE-METFORD MARK 2*

ENFIELD     .450 MARTINI-HENRY
ENFIELD     .577 SNIDER-ENFIELD RIFLE/CARBINE

FRENCH MILITARY     MODEL 1886 LEBEL
FRENCH "BERTHIER" CARBINE, early 3 round magazine models.
FRENCH "CHASSPOTT"
GRAS     MODEL 1874 INFANTRY RIFLE AND CARBINE

SWISS VETTERLI M1867-71 M1878, M1881

ITALIAN VETTERLI M1870, M1870/78
 
DREYSE "NEEDLE GUN"
MAUSER     MODEL 1871 SHORT RIFLE
MAUSER 71
MAUSER  78/80
MAUSER 84
MAUSER  85
MAUSER  86
MAUSER  87
MAUSER  88
MAUSER  89
MAUSER  90
MAUSER  91
MAUSER  92
MAUSER  93
MAUSER  94
MAUSER  95
MAUSER  96

MANNLICHER M1888

STEYR M1895

MOISEN-NAGANT M1891
RUSSIAN BERDAN SINGLE SHOT 1ST AND 2ND MODEL.

PEABODY 1871

REMINGTON     U.S. NAVY M1867 ROLLING BLOCK CARBINE
REMINGTON     REMINGTON KEENE MAGAZINE BOLT RIFLE
REMINGTON     REMINGTON LEE MAGAZINE BOLT RIFLE
REMINGTON     U.S. NAVY "ANNAPOLIS CADET" MILITARY RIFLE
REMINGTON     U.S. ARMY MODEL 1870 "EXPERIMENTAL" CARBINE
REMINGTON     U.S. ARMY MODEL 1870 "EXPERIMENTAL" MILITARY RIFLE
REMINGTON     U.S. NAVY MODEL 1870 (TYPES 1 & 2) MILITARY RIFLE
REMINGTON     U.S. ARMY MODEL 1871 MILITARY RIFLE
REMINGTON     ANY ROLLING BLOCK IN MILSPEC CONFIGURATION

SCHMIDT-RUBIN M1889, M1896, M1897, M1900
 
SHARPS     .50/70 CARBINES
SHARPS     .50/70 RIFLES
SHARPS     SPRINGFIELD/SHARPS MODEL 1870-1871
SHARPS     MODEL 1874
SHARPS     MODEL 1878 SHARPS-BORCHARDT

SNIDER     Various INFANTRY RIFLE/CARBINE

SPENCER     MODEL 1860 ARMY RIFLES
SPENCER     MODEL 1860 CARBINES
SPENCER     MODEL 1860 NAVY RIFLES
SPENCER     MODEL 1865 ARMY RIFLES
SPENCER     MODEL 1865 CARBINES
SPENCER     MODEL 1867 ARMY RIFLES AND CARBINES
SPENCER     NEW MODEL ARMY RIFLES AND CARBINES
SPENCER     SMALL-FRAME MILITARY CARBINES
SPENCER     SPRINGFIELD ARMORY RIFLE MUSKET CONVERSION OF SPENCER CARBINES

SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1870 ROLLING-BLOCK RIFLE, U.S.N.
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1871 ROLLING-BLOCK RIFLE, U.S.A.
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODELS 1866, 1868 RIFLES
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1870 RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1873 CADET RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1873 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1873 RIFLE "TRAPDOOR"
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1875 OFFICER?S RIFLE FIRST TYPE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1877 CADET RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1877 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1877 RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1879 CADET RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1879 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1879 RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1880
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1884 RIFLE "TRAPDOOR"
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY     MODEL 1888 RIFLE "TRAPDOOR"

SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     ARSENAL-ALTERED TO M1896 STYLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1892-DATED 1894
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1895 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1896
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1896 CADET RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1896 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1898 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1898 NRA CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1898 RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1899 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG)     M1899 PHILIPPINE CONSTABULARY CARBINE

DANISH KRAG M1889
NORWIEGIAN KRAG M1894, 95, 97

WINCHESTER     HOTCHKISS RIFLE
WINCHESTER     MODEL 1895 NRA MUSKET
WINCHESTER     MODEL 1895 RUSSIAN MUSKET
WINCHESTER     MODEL 1895 CARBINE
WINCHESTER     MODEL 1895 FLATSIDE MUSKET
WINCHESTER     MODEL 1895 MUSKET
WINCHESTER     MODEL 1883 (HOTCHKISS REPEATER)
WINCHESTER     MODEL 1895 LEE STRAIGHT PULL RIFLE

The above lists most of the major issue small arms of the period.  For those of you determined to field the rare and exotic, you can find just about everything here:  http://www.militaryrifles.com/MAINIndx.htm   Please remember that lever action rifles with tubular underbarrel magazines are NOT allowed in this concept.  There are other venues for those.  IE once again, I know the Turks used 1866s at Plevna, don't care, not allowed. 

Why no Mauser 98?  True statement "The Mauser 98 is the definitive bolt action of the 20th century."  Nuff said. 

The Lee Enfield is NOT the SMLE, but the first, longer version.  The SMLE was developed in response to the Boer war, and fielded after 1903.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Dr. Bob

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2007, 05:54:04 PM »
Howdy Sgt. Drydock,

May rim fire rifles be converted to center fire? 

Regards, Doc
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Offline Drydock

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2007, 08:13:20 PM »
Yes.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Old Top

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2007, 03:05:52 AM »
Sgt Drydock,

That looks like a outstanding job to put all of those together.  Excellent.

Old Top
I only shoot to support my reloading habit.

Offline Drydock

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2007, 12:32:43 AM »
BTT.  FYI, and perhaps this could be stickied?
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

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Re: GAF MILSPEC/BATTLE RIFLE STANDARDS.
« Reply #5 on: Today at 04:58:46 PM »

Offline sharps54

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2007, 08:13:39 AM »
I think this is a great idea. Of course here in VA I might have a hard time finding somewhere that will let me try it! I bought a Martini Henry a few years ago before I though about cowboy and now have a hankering to put together a Boer outfit around it! You read about Boers using Mausers but an awful lot used "liberated" MHs.  I need to get my Quartermaster uniform and kit finished first but hopefully by the time this starts being accepted I will be able to put together my "Boer commando" kit.
 

Offline Drydock

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2007, 10:16:53 PM »
BTT
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline River City John

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2007, 12:41:14 AM »
You've put a lot of thought into this, Sgt. Drydock. Well done.

I'm not sure if you have been to the Ackley range, but some of the stages at the left of the line do not have a lot of depth. Even though your organization allows for all kinds of diverse battle rifles, the target placement on at least a portion of the stages will treat them all as if they're the typical Cowboy rifle shooting at middle ranges.

I must confess, too, that one of my stages calls for shooting the rifle from the hip occaisionally. I hope that it does not create problems with some battle rifle users. Oh well.

RCJ
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"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
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Offline Drydock

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2007, 07:47:02 AM »
Been there twice, shot all their targets with a properly loaded Krag. (Note that Battle rifle rounds have the same limitations as regular CAS rifles, IE all lead, no more than 1400 fps.) Not a problem.  However be aware that Hip shooting can be a problem for any rifle, in that any round that goes over the backstop is a match Disqualification.  For this reason Hip shooting has kind of fallen from favor in most combat style matchs.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline River City John

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2007, 09:29:18 AM »
Then I will be doubly careful about the rifle target placement on that stage. But the 'fun-factor' in an occasional hipshot was a treat I couldn't ignore. ;D

RCJ
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Re: GAF MILSPEC/BATTLE RIFLE STANDARDS.
« Reply #10 on: Today at 04:58:46 PM »

Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2007, 09:47:55 AM »
I am personally going to leave the Battle Rifle Catagory alone because I don't feel my Krag is up to it.  HOWEVER ;) I will be getting myself an EMF Springfield Trap Door Carbine to go with my USFA Government Inspector's Model Revolver for future GAF Matches.  I am looking forward to having some serious fun with that.
Major Matt Lewis
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Offline Drydock

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2007, 11:18:54 AM »
Major, as I will hopefully be there if my current schedule holds, I would be happy to lend you my Trapdoor carbine, should you have the ammunition ready for it. 

Your Krag problems may be due to the OAL  of your rounds, most Krags will not feed light (150-165 grain) bullets because of this.  Your OAL needs to be at least 2.9" to get reliable feeding.

I use the Lee C309-200-R mold, sized and gas checked thru a Lee .311 sizer, lubed with Lee Liquid Alox.  Seated and crimped in the provided crimp groove it has an OAL of 2.975, and feeds slick thru my 1898.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Hell-Er High Water

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2007, 07:00:18 PM »
Major,

I have been loading the RCBS 30-180-SP in the Krag, seated to an overall length of 3.100" and it feeds OK in my M'1899 Carbine.

RCBS calls this bullet a Semi-Pointed, gas checked bullet.  It is spitzer shaped with a small flat point and casts at about 182 grains from my mould using Lyman No. 2 alloy.  I size it to 0.309" diameter.  The RCBS mould is a two cavity mould so casting goes at a pretty good rate.

Seated to this length there is one grease groove exposed so I just leave this groove unlubed so as to not pick up any unnecessary dirt.  I suppose that you could shoot it without the gas check if you wanted but I find that with older, not so perfect bores that I usually get better accuracy with gas checked bullets.

Hope that this helps in your quest for a good cast bullet Krag load.

HHW


Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2007, 04:04:33 PM »
Yeah,

There is also the problem of being a cronicle low shooter even with factory hunting rounds.  I had to put the rifle on 600 yard windage for a 50 yard target.
Major Matt Lewis
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Offline Drydock

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2007, 09:06:56 PM »
THe sights are set for a 220 grain bullet at 2000 FPS.  Current factory rounds are 180 grain at 2450 fps.  Raising bullet weight and lowering velocity will raise point of impact.  Are your sights stamped "R", "C", or perhaps unstamped?
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2007, 09:00:19 AM »
I got a REAL good deal on a rifle with no front sites.  So I bought a new front site from S&S up in New York and had it mounted.
Major Matt Lewis
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Offline Dusty Tagalon

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2007, 09:17:54 PM »
Anyone have an idea what a Swedish Mountain uniform looks like?

Dusty

Offline Drydock

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2007, 09:25:58 PM »
So what kinda rear sight are you using Major?
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline River City John

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2007, 10:06:31 PM »
Anyone have an idea what a Swedish Mountain uniform looks like?

Dusty

Dusty, when in doubt, search www.military-historians.org  and their plate list of uniforms.

Whoops, only forces that served in the Americas are depicted. Only Swedish unit mentioned is too early for our period. Sorry about that.
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
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Offline Dr. Bob

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Re: BATTLE RIFLE
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2007, 01:17:40 AM »
Dusty,

You might check the list of books by Osprey.  They have a web site I think, sorry no link.  They have books on uniform and armies from ancient Egypt to current. 
Regards, Doc
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