Author Topic: Proposed Military Catagory  (Read 17711 times)

Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Proposed Military Catagory
« on: July 02, 2006, 09:10:42 AM »
Folks,

While I was at EOT, I had the opportunity to pitch to Tex, the idea of a Military Catagory for SASS Shooters.  His reactions were positive, but he was unable to promise anything, understandably.  Anyway, he asked me to send him an email on the subject with some thoughts.  So, I did and here are some of the things that I outlined:

1. Shooters must shoot the Main Match as a one-handed or duelist style.  (This is due to the fact that in the late 1800’s the saber was considered a primary weapon wielded with the strong hand and the pistol a secondary weapon, drawn and fired from the week hand.)

2. All SASS Main Match rifles and shotguns would be allowed in the category.  All SASS authorized revolvers with a barrel length of 5.5 inches to 8 inches would be authorized for use with in the category.  (The thought behind this is that most military issue revolvers were of the 7.5 inch variety.  During the Spanish American War, the Government reissued the Colt Single Action Army cut down to 5.5 inches for Artillery Troops and Volunteers, notably the Rough Riders.  During the Civil War, the 1860 Army and 1861 Navy had 8 inch barrels.)  This category is open to all SASS authorize calibers and gauges.

3. The shooter must compete with flapped holsters.  It is the shooter’s option to use either pistol but forward or pistol but to the rear.  All SASS safety rules concerning the 170 degree apply here.

4. The shooter must have at least 1 cartridge box secured to their pistol belt.  The belt buckle must have an emblem or symbol of the persona in which they are creating i.e. the 1851 US Eagle Belt Buckle or CSA, etc. 
The Shotgun Belt must be of canvas web construction and hold no more than one shot-shell per loop hole.  (This is based of the prairie belt that was worn by members of the military on the frontier and during the Spanish American War.  During this time in history, the only likely military member that would have access to a shotgun was the Company Cook.)

5.  The shooter must be dressed in uniform throughout the entire event.  In the case of a major event such as End of Trail, the participant must be in uniform for the side matches, main match, banquet (if applicable), and awards ceremony.

The participants shooting uniform must contain elements of the follow:

 A hat with appropriate branch or rank emblems or cords and piping.  Palm style plantation style hats would be allowed in hot weather (they were used widely in the southwest by the frontier military and during the summer in the Civil War.)

Rank that is consistent with the persona that the shooter is creating i.e. stars for a general, etc.  (Rank can also be defined by the size of the stripe on the trousers, collar pinned rank, shoulder boards or hat cords.  In the case of somebody shooting as a Private, none of these would apply.)

Boots shall be of either the squared toe cavalry style boots, Civil War style Brogans or some variation of, or the 1895 Combat Shoe.  No modern style combat boots will be allowed.  If the shooter does not wear cavalry style boots, the shooter must wear leggings.  Cavalry Style boots must be accompanied by spurs.

Now, if y'all want to see this grow, I would urge that you contact your local clubs and ask that the catagory be offered at a monthly level match.  If the catagory get's participation, maybe we can see the catagory offered at annual matches and then regionals....etc.  Now, keep in mind that IF we are successful, it will be a few years before we see adoption, so if we are going to gain approval, it will be a marathon, not a sprint.

Thank you,

Major Matt Lewis


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Offline Cannon Fodder

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2006, 10:16:48 AM »
Excellent  idea and article,Major!

I talked to Tex and Ellsworth T Kincaid briefly at Mulecamp  but not on any specifics.

Maybe this is a good way to start.

Sgt F B (Cannon) Fodder

Offline Blackey Cole

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2006, 02:34:12 PM »
MAjor, my idea was to be mor eperiod correct ie firearms must match those usesd by troops for the era they are protraying.  Ie CW C&B for hand guns SXS for shotgun, and rifles for the side they were portraying IE to use Henry's you must be a member of the usits that carried them.  Otherwise it is the trapdoor or spencer.  IW use cartridge hand guns and 73's or other guns for the period portraying.  Also, ispection would be done per regs for that era to insure you comply.  A handbook could be created that would simplify the research.  Only exceptions would be facial hair and the haircuts would be exempt from the inspect but shooter would be urgerd to comply but it wouldn't be nessecery. What you think about it.  This wouldn't make you very competive overall but would be great as a class.  you would have to dress and shoot traditionally for the era.  It could be a single hand gun class and limit rounds in the rifle to 6 or 7 like a plainsman match.  Shotgun woudl be a third firearm used to finish the stage or to start a stage.
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Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2006, 02:44:01 PM »
Blackey,

I see your idea as being an excellent one for an NCOWS shoot where more focus is placed on authenticity.  As a matter of fact, it sounds a lot like the GAF Muster.....This year it is in Ackley, Iowa... ;)  We would love to have you....

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9091.0.html

http://www.lone-gunman.com/Muster/

However, I wanted to keep the catagory scalable and implementable for SASS. 
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Offline Bull Schmitt

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2006, 06:15:08 PM »
Sgt. Drydock,

Does the 1865--1901 period being identified as the Victorian era by necessity thus exclude the Henry rifle? I believe some Winchester 73 rifles were used by the Turkish army? Should they be included in the permitted list of rifles?

Respectfully,

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #5 on: Today at 12:20:39 PM »

Offline Drydock

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2006, 06:24:16 PM »
As per above, no.  Plenty other venues for those.  This is a main battle rifle class within the GAF.  Every other class at the Muster or at any CAS shoot provides a venue for Pistol caliber lever actions.  A Henry is in fact my main match rifle, see my picture at left   ;D
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Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2006, 06:57:53 PM »
That would be AWESOME if we had that class with in GAF, but I want to be perfectly clear that I am advocating a SASS shooting catagory here do not want this to be interpretated as trying to introduce Krags or other non-pistol caliber rifles into SASS as a Main Match rifle.

With that said, I would love to shoot the GAF Match with my Krag some day....
Major Matt Lewis
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Offline Rancid Roy

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2006, 09:37:23 PM »
Howdy,

As a CAS shooter and now "suiting" up for the "military side" [I bought a Yankee Kepi from Coon Creek at EOT06] I would like to address the ranks here on the proposed SASS Category "Military".

Officers and senior non-coms carried non-issue sidearms and longarms in the Indian Wars. And all ranks did wear civilian shirts and buckskins on campaign depending on the unit and command. So I am thinking the category should allow at least buckskin trousers [with or without fringe], civilian shirts in solid white, checks, etc. such as the C&W sutlers offer. Perhaps buckskin coats and shirts? as in offciers wearing buckskin with rank shoulder boards? However if a person does Private Joeslick the Ragman he has to be dressed properly as a private, i.e. generally in proper uniform?

I agree with handguns of no barrel length below 5 1/2 although Custer carried English Bulldogs.

I see a problem with repeaters versus single-shots in competition as in a Spencer versus a Springfield and offcers and senior non-coms carried Winchester lever guns and Henrys as well. Although I would like to see the scenarios set up to shoot single-shot carbines and rifles of the era as in Sharps linen, Smith, Springfield, etc. I.E. targets far enough downrange to accomodate the larger bores. If lever guns were allowed they'd have to shoot the same targets and distances.

I like the idea of "flapped" holsters and some type of required military belt and equipage as well.

But I think we must be careful in requiring such "authenticity" that it becomes a "re-enacting" event with "stitch nazis" running around and verbally thrashing people over their costume. I did a little bit of WWI and WWII re-enacting and some of those folks were big bores. Another problem with any "historical" category is that the rules can often be made and interpretated by a narrow-minded individual whose only viewpoint of "what they wore in 1876" is what the Seventh Cavalry wore. Or "this is what the historical orders read as to what they were authorized" when in reality the same unit actually wore uniforms cobbled up from C&W, Indian Wars, and civilian issue.

Plus SASS and CAS is a mixture of historically accurate, movie, and fantasy "Old West" So maybe the "Military Category" might have to be expanded to allow those parameters? I.E. I'm thinking chevorns and shoulder boards were not worn on issue shirts but only on "blouses" [coats] and coats. However in a lot of movies you'll see the ranks wearing rank on their shirts and quite often officers wearing "shield front" or bib shirts. Maybe the allowance of dress codes to encompass "Hollywood Military" as well?

I think we should pursue this to allow Confederate as well?

Let's keep this going to SASS.
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Offline Pony Racer

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2006, 10:12:22 PM »
I think this is a great idea; however, I dod take issue with having to use a flapped holster.

Naval equipage of the time for a pistol was basically a "frog' style holster "gun bucket" - iv'e heard some people say that had a strap of leather that came over the gun and hooked up on the body of the holster.

You could say that the strap is a type of "flap" but it would be better to include wording that would ok the naval type holster to ensure that shooting time "no go's" do not interfere with a funmatch time.

Other than the holster issue - I think this is great!!

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Offline Reb Tyree

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2006, 10:23:18 PM »
Good evening to all.  First off let me say this is a great idea.  I would love to be able to shoot in a match that allowed single shot rifles a such as my 1863 sharps carbine, 54 cal. armed with an 1851 or 1860 Colt or a 1858 Remington.  I like the idea of the "Military catagory." And Yes only the "Holy Black Powder."   :) :) :) 8)

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #10 on: Today at 12:20:39 PM »

Offline Drydock

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2006, 11:31:21 PM »
While I like the idea of a SASS military catagorie in theory, practicaly speaking this is a bad time for such a proposal, with the recent introduction of the firearms covenant, and implimentation of the smoke standard.  I suspect SASS would rather have a catagorie moritorium for a few years now, and let all this settle out. 

The costume/caliber limitations of Classic Cowboy fit quite well, as does Frontier Cartridge Duelist.  I would like to concentrate on simply assembling Military Possses at Major matchs.  Having the uniforms shooting together would be far more impressive than having them scattered about in a redundant class.  A uniformed Posse would also be better able to spread enthusiasem about GAF, and it would be within the GAF that folks could then exercise those more military specific weapons. 

IMHO, have a cup of coffee on me!   ::)
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Offline bosunpete

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2006, 02:04:33 AM »
I think this is a great idea; however, I dod take issue with having to use a flapped holster.

Naval equipage of the time for a pistol was basically a "frog' style holster "gun bucket" - iv'e heard some people say that had a strap of leather that came over the gun and hooked up on the body of the holster.

You could say that the strap is a type of "flap" but it would be better to include wording that would ok the naval type holster to ensure that shooting time "no go's" do not interfere with a funmatch time.

Other than the holster issue - I think this is great!!

V/R

PR

ahh, thank you PonyRacer. I was about to post my concern on this very subject, but you covered it to a 't'.

I will post a photo of a naval pistol frog at a later time.

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Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2006, 09:27:16 AM »
Folks,

Your killing me.  Many of you are not even reading the structure of the POTENIAL catagory...Case in point, the allowance of Confederate uniforms.  I even used CSA as an example of a belt buckle.  The implication was that the catagory, IF APPROVED, was not confinded to just that of Federal Soldiers or Indian War Soldiers.  Also, the Uniform Guidelines are open enough to include Hollywood and authentic.  Shirts are not even mentioned.

I ALSO WANT TO POINT OUT THAT I AM NOT ADVOCATING THE ADDITION OF SINGLE SHOT RIFLES INTO THE SASS GAME; NOR DID I PROPOSE IT. 

Folks, please consider that I posted this out in public space not to change the world or ask for a lot of public input.  I put it out here so folks how were willing to assist in the birth or this class would have a place to direct their local club leadership and territorial govenor to.  I am grateful for the unsolicited public feedback, but I am cognizant enough to know that we will not be able to get this catagory to be allowed if a match director has to crack the US Army Uniform Regulations for 1881.  Ain't going to happen.  If you are willing to support this, as is to get something out there, take the original guidelines to your club President and Territorial Govenor and ask them to support it by offering it as a monthly catagory and bringing it up at the Territorial Govenors meeting.

The Guidelines that I proposed are not ment to chance the way the game is played, just open up a new area or it.  Also keep in mind, no matter how hard you try, you can't please everybody.
Major Matt Lewis
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Offline Rancid Roy

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2006, 08:13:14 PM »
Personally, I think if lever guns are authorized they should be re-chambered to 50/70 or 45/70. I'm sure we can find competent gunsmiths who can stretch a Henry's frame from .44/40 to 45/70?!?!

Just kidding.

Major, you started this now you're gonna have to put up with folks getting excited about it.  ;D

I think it has merit. Keep the uniform rules easy [we're not re-enacting]. Keep the weapons in the standard SASS types [I withdraw my request for single-shot martial arms]. I do think limitng barrel length might be re-considered. As I said before Custer carried Bulldogs. The Kit Carson museum in Taos has a Colt 1862 Pocket Navy that an officer describes failing him in 1867 so he "laid it on a rock" and never recoverd it. In 1967?? a person who read his account went to the site and found it!!

I suggest maybe one holster must be flapped? The other may be "SASS Legal"?

If it helps I might be able to help in the "Military Category" implementation.

Maybe SASS will provide a special "Sutler's Row" only for the soldiers [and sailors] and maybe them kind of places where them "sodger boys" went to drink and have........ wicked FUN!!! on payday!! All strictly for the SASS military!!!

Just kidding again......
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Offline Reb Tyree

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2006, 08:29:23 PM »
Good Evening to all.   

First I must agree with Majotr Matt Lewis.  I agree with need contact our territorial Governors and local clubs to and propose the idea of a"Military Catagory."  This would greatly enhance the general view GAF in the SASS community.  I also do not wish to force anyone into using a single shot rifle.  Although as an option, stages could be set for those who wish to use a single shot rifle.

Major Matt Lewis, Sir I salute you for you continuied forward thinking!  I'll be glad to support you in this matter!

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Offline Blackey Cole

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2006, 10:14:59 PM »
Matt Rancid is the MD/Pres for one of the local clubs I shoot with so he already knows my veiw point or will if when he reads this.  THe other club that I am a member I will not get involved with any more for personal reasons.  I support your Idea but need to read it to refresh what you propsed vs what I have in mind.

Sgt Dry DOck I really like your idea of forming  posses at the larger matches like the BP shooters do.  See if you can get the Boardertown to setup a posse like that.  I think it would make for some great posse photos.  I am perty much dressed as hollywood calavry.  I am working making the correct leather goods to be acurate but I have a hard tiem with wool but will be gettin a wool uniform down the road.  Right now I use the denium pants with the strips from Coon Creek and the cotton two pocket shirts.  Boots will be another item that will be down the road since I will need to have them made custom so that I can get my big feet and large calves in to them.  But let me know if you are shooting at the FOunders ranch and I will try to make it on your posse.
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Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2006, 11:29:49 PM »
Blackey,

I am right there with you with the big feet and calves...Now, I have had great luck with Missouri Boot and Shoe company.  I also have a custom pair of cavalry boots being made by Fall Creek Sultery....For about $230.

Now Gents,

I thank you for your assistance in getting the ball rolling...That's awesome.  There may be some additional momentum which I will hold close to the vest for now. 
Major Matt Lewis
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Offline US Scout

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2006, 07:04:46 AM »
Well Done Bvt Lt Col and Maj Matt Lewis-

Back when I used to post on the SASS Wire, I was a strong advocate of a "Military Category."  Usually got shot down on the grounds that there were too many categories already and SASS didn't need another one.  Of course, that didn't stop the "Classic Cowboy" from being created.

I brought it up once when chatting with Tex and the Judge.  Both gave supportive but non-committing comments - as might be expected.

I'm still in favor of a military category, much as Maj Lewis has defined - perhaps modeled after the Classic Cowboy category which is more restrictive on what can and can't be worn, shot, or carried.  We'll always have trouble with the shotgun since that didn't really become an issue firearm until WWI, well outside the time limit of SASS.

One thing I would like to see emphasized though is the use of the "cavalry twist" when using a butt-forward flap holster.  This is allowed in SASS, though many RO's still insist that the wearer exectute the cross draw shuffle when drawing the pistol.

As Maj Lewis has stated, this is posted for discussion and promotion to your respective TGs.  Don't shoot the idea down just because it doesn't fit your concept of what a military category should be.  Right now there is no military category, so any step in that direction is a positive one.  The GAF can make a signiificant contribution toward the pomotion of that category by coming up with a good definition of what the category comprises for eventual submission to and by the TGs.  If well thought out and written, it'll have a much better chance of being accepted.  We will still run into the nay-sayers, but that is to be expected.

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Offline Mustang Gregg

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2006, 07:30:56 AM »
Well, I like the idee of a Military Category in theory.
But flap type holsters are not allowed in SASS due to safety reasons---REHOLSTERIN' DIFFICULTIES.
And scoring would be a booger if'n there were a different number of guns used-----IE: NO SHOTGUNS.

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Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2006, 08:15:33 AM »
Ah Gregg,


Flap holsters are allowed in SASS.  Just between you and I, a very well known member of SASS with juice suggested that we use them when I pitched him the catagory and a number of shooters had them at EOT and there was no issue.  And also, nobody is trying to elimate the shotgun for exactly the reason you spoke of....But if you use my guidelines, you will need a canvas Mills style shotgun belt that only holds one shotshell per loop.
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