Author Topic: Proposed Military Catagory  (Read 17052 times)

Offline Trailrider

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2006, 12:28:33 pm »
Major:

I looked in the latest SASS handbook & you're correct---NO MENTION OF FLAP-TYPE HOLSTERS.  But I reckon it COULD be a sweep/safety issue.  Possibly since 2 hands are used to reholster(??).
   
 ???    Maybe they were gettin' info outta an older SASS handbook.    ???
 I will need to do some deep research to locate them older ruke books around here.

MG

Gentlemen:

Why does it take two hands to reholster?  The flap can easily be held open by the thumb and wrist, or the flap can be tucked behind the belt.  I believe there is nothing in the Major's recommendations that requires the holster flap be fastened when the shooter is on the firing line.

The bigger "problem" is going to be how the butt-forward hang of the "issue" holster will affect the method of the draw.  The issue holsters have cant angles of about 22 degrees off vertical.  If the belt loops on the holsters are "as issued", they do not allow for the holster to be swung to vertical, so, technically, the shooter might be breaking the 170 if he uses a strong side twist draw.  I personally think this is a non-issue as shooters wearing high-ride, high-cut, strong-side, butt rear draw with a 7-1/2" barreled gun almost invariably breaks the 170 as the muzzle clears leather!  But, of course, nobody complains about this!  Nor should they!  In point of fact, I have stated time and time-again that the ONLY way a single action revolver, properly carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber, can discharge is if the shooter purposely touches the hammer spur with his/her thumb...or somebody hits them with a flame-thrower!  Keeping the thumb off the hammer until the gun is pointed downrange solves the problem, regardless of the holster hang or the style of carry.  Just convinve the RO's!  One solution might be a pair of "Forsythe"-style holsters, which were a full-flap, butt-rear (butt-forward versions were also made) holster, with various style belt loops for use with the wide canvas Mills belts or saber belts.  These may not have been issued until the 1890's, and then in small quantities for trials with the troops.

One thing I would suggest regarding holster rigs...  It is a fact, supported by at least one photo of a 6th Cav trooper, in Arizona in the 1880's, wearing a civilian Mexican loop holster and cartridge belt with his Colt's SAA butt REAR on the right side.  Might want to permit that so long as other pieces of uniform, though encouraging the wear of regulation rigs.  The other question is what to do about packing the second pistol, since that was definitely NOT regulation, and seldom practiced except perhaps during the "late unpleasantness", and then especially by Confederate troopers.

[Note: Please understand, I am NOT soliciting business for myself, although I do make holsters.  The above discussion is merely to bring up some factors that may need to be addressed in massaging the details of this new category.]

Re: The potential use of various rifles.  I do see somewhat of a difficulty in requiring the use of any certain repeating rifles, as it would be unreasonable to force someone otherwise interested in this catagory to purchase a different rifle, if, for example, he/she has a M1894 Marlin or M1892 Rossi.  I DO think the use of earlier repeating rifles (Henry, Winchester '66 and '73) be ENCOURAGED.  As to single shot rifles, I have some older Lyman handloading manuals that show 190 gr. bullets loaded with smokeless powder at around 1100-1300 ft/sec in the .45-70.  While most bullets in these lighter weights are for .45 LC and would be small for the .45-70 (.454 vs. .457).  It is possible that loads could be developed for, say 250 gr. .45 LC bullets, and the smaller bullets be used effectively for use in Trapdoor Springfields.  It MIGHT be necessary to obtain custom moulds or have one commercial bullet makers set up for .458" 250 gr. bullets.  If enough shooters went this route, we might be able to convince the "powders" to allow us to use single-shot rifles and carbines.

One thing that might discourage stage designers from allowing the use of single-shot rifles is the elapsed time required to shoot the same targets being used by repeaters.  A full "patrol" (posses are for civilians) might take an additional ten or fifteen minutes to shoot a stage versus using repeaters.

These are just some thoughts I've had on this matter.  I definitely support the effort to introduce a military shooting classification to SASS matches!

Ride to the sound of the guns, but watch out for bushwhackers! Godspeed to all in harm's way in the defense of Freedom! God Bless America!

Your obedient servant,
Trailrider,
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Offline Blackey Cole

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2006, 02:57:44 pm »
Maj.  US Scout may have said somethign that would work as a starting point for the category.  Make it a category like CC and BW where you may shoot ceertian pistols calibers Ie 44 and 45 as I am not knowledgable enough to make the comment that 38 were never issued but I never heard of anything other than 45 and 44 being issued to soidlers.  I think the dress should corespond to that of the other two dress classes.  Ie Shirt must be oof the designed issued to the enlisted soilder and for officers something that would have been worn while on campain.  Pants the same thing with the width of the strip to correspond to the grade.  Shoes either allow lace up if worn with garters or cavalry high tops if worn out side the pants leg or a uniform that woiuld pass muster if in garrison.  Uniforms changed depending on duty you could also use fatigues for stabel duty.  Leather sabare belt or the mills belt depending on custumes leather was worn in garrison and the canvas was used for campian duty.  Hat you could have a choise depending on duty the kepi or a slouch depending also on duty.  But if we could come up with requirementsa based on the format used for CC & BW then it might fly eaiser and then down the line if need be we modify it to become more authintic.  Right now I wear a uniform I got from Coon Creek which is no where near correct materials but toi the eye looks correct.  You saw me in it at EOT and it is more confortable for me than the wool.  The idea is to look the part not be the part.
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Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2006, 10:43:19 pm »
Blackey,

Stand by a quick lesson...

The Navy and the Marine Corps never adapted the .45 LC SAA.  As a mater of fact they kept the 1851 Navy RM Conversion right up until 1889 when they adapted the Colt New Navy.  The 1851 RM Conversion, was chambered in .38 Colt, as was the Colt New Navy Models 1889, 1892 and 1895.  Not to mention the New Army Models that were readily available by the Spanish American War (1898).  Buy the way, the SASS time period does encompass the Spanish American War.  When I shoot, I mostly shoot as a Spanish American War/Boxer Rebellion Marine to avoid wearing wool uniforms, because I like to be mostly authentic when I "put it on."  At EOT, I bought a Rough Rider Outfit.    ;D

If we followed the Classic Cowboy line too closely, than there really would not be a need for the Military Catagory, and from what I understand, the Classic Cowboy folks don't want us in thier backyard, which is one reason why the idea of a Military Catagory may have potential...

But knowing Scout pretty well, I believe that he was suggesting to built the catagory like Classic Cowboy, which is what I did.  My reasons for scripting all calibers was to specifically keep the option of the 1851 Navy and all the following .38 calibers in the class.  Not to mention that I know a lot of people who now have issues shooting the .45 because of Carple Tunnel, age, arthritus etc...Now, I am not saying the guidelines don't need tweaking, but the ball is in SASS' court now.  Let's focus having clubs let us play as a catagory.  I am sure that the powers that be as SASS will tweak them IF they decide to give the catagory a shot...
Major Matt Lewis
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Offline Blackey Cole

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Re: Proposed Military Category
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2006, 12:10:35 am »
Maj, I think you misunderstood what I was saying as far as the CC issue,  What I was trying to say was have requirements for X number of items from a list like, Flap holster, sword, wild rag, suspenders, saber belt, Cap pouch, ammo box, Designation of rank on pants and shirt.  Etc have a list so the shooter can choose from to build their outfit.  Have it look better than be.  I said I wasn't sure of the caliber and thanks for setting me straight on that.  In no way was I saying for us to shoot in CC but have requirements on dress and equipment like they did for CC and BW.  Sorry to hit a nerve.
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Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2006, 09:01:18 am »
Didn't hit a nerve, most people rightfully so do not think of the Navy and Marines when shooting SASS.  But as to your point about require X amount of things, I am in total agreement.  I did not submit what I viewed the final outcome to be....as I know that if SASS adopts it, they will make changes...
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Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2006, 02:36:13 pm »
Boots shall be of either the squared toe cavalry style boots, Civil War style Brogans or some variation of, or the 1895 Combat Shoe.  No modern style combat boots will be allowed.  If the shooter does not wear cavalry style boots, the shooter must wear leggings.  Cavalry Style boots must be accompanied by spurs.

Major Lewis,
I'm a little confused by this and would like some clarification. (This could be construed as arguing but isn't meant that way) This would appear to leave my period "out in the cold" as the infantry shoe was redesigned in the early 1870's and leggins weren't issued untill the 1880's. Also at least one infantryman at Ft. Hartsuff wore cavalry style boots, but I doubt he wore spurs. How should I reconcile this rule with my persona?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 02:43:19 pm by Pitspitr »
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Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2006, 03:31:54 pm »
You know, I actually had some thoughts around foot wear a couple of days a go.  If the proposal gets to the point of birth, than I am assuming (We all know what happens when we do that) that we would get the opportunity for a finalized guidelines.  What I sent in is just to get the conversation started....but agree with you as well as forgien troops may not have had leggings.....
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Offline Trailrider

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2006, 02:46:24 pm »
Gentlemen:

I have been thinking (WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!) about the possibilities of using the big bore single-shot rifles in the military catagory.  For safety, such guns will HAVE to use loads that are no hotter than a comparable .45 LC round, i.e., 250 gr bullet at no more than about 1200 ft/sec.  One difficulty will be obtaining a 250 gr, .458" dia. bullet, as the .454" bullets would be too small, with the possible exception of using a soft bullet and BP.

Q.  DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A SOURCE OF READY-CAST BULLETS 250 gr. .457-.458" dia.?  I'd prefer HARD CAST for use with smokeless, but soft bullets might be used with BP.

The second problem is development loads that will produce the above velocities using smokeless powders.  The 250 gr bullet is VERY light for the case capacity of the .45-70, and some experimentation will be necessary to determine loads safe for Trapdoor Springfields, as well as staying within the velocity restrictions of SASS.  (I DO have a .45-70 rifle instrumented with a strain gage for the Oehler M43 PBL system.)  Has anyone else experimented with .45-70 loads of this type?

Ride to the sound of the guns, but watch out for bushwhackers! Godspeed to all in harm's way in the defense of Freedom! God Bless America!

Your obedient servant,
Trailrider,
Bvt. Lt. Col. Commanding,
Southern District
Dept. of the Platte, GAF

Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2006, 08:31:42 pm »
Well Jim, one option might be a variation on the "gallery" load which is a .457 RB over 4gr FFF deep seated in the case. The biggest problem with load would be that they are difficult to feed. One might need to use somewhere around 15 gr to get "nock-downs"
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Offline Trailrider

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2006, 09:49:45 pm »
Pitspitr,

That thought had also crossed my mind.  So far as feeding is concerned, with a good roll crimp, in a Trapdoor, it wouldn't be too bad...I don't think.  Anyway, until I can get some time, it will have to go on hold for awhile. I still would like to get some bullets like a .45 LC, but in .457-.458".  I may call around to various mould makers...Rapine, RCBS, etc....and see what they might be able to do...maybe lap out a mould or something, rather than cutting a new cherry...unless, of course there seemed to be enough market for a mould.

If you get to try something like the .457 RB, etc., post the data and let us know how it works out.

Ride to the sound of the guns, but watch out for bushwhackers! Godspeed to all in harm's way in the defense of Freedom! God Bless America!

Your obedient servant,
Trailrider,
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Offline Books OToole

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2006, 10:32:32 am »
Why is there so much effort being made to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Authentic military arms of the Victorian era are not compatable with SASS or NCOWS rules regarding what arms can be used.

The GAF needs to develope its own rules, classes, etc.

Example Classes;

Enlisted infantry - 1873-1892 Single shot rifle - (they were not issured sidearms/pistols)
                         1892-1900 Bolt action rifle - (for those in the late 19th Century - still no side arms)

Enlisted Cavalry -  Pre-1873 Repeating carbine and cap & Ball revolver
                         1873-1892  Single shot carbine & a SAA.
                         1892-1900  Bolt action carbine & SAA.

Officer -              Revolver only.

Scout -               Just about anything goes.

Weapons & Uniforms must be matched for the era portrayed.  For military personell they must unit's TO& E for the era.

Most Targets will stand up to 45-70 government.  Targets that will hold up under mil-spec .30 cal. Government (.30-40 Krag) are out there.

This will take no more effort that all the "whittling" that is being done to get the square GAF peg into the SASS round hole.

And the final product will be far superior.

Just the humble opinion of an old military living-historian. (Who is becoming a decent CAS shooter.)

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Offline Drydock

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2006, 11:32:58 am »
SASS/NCOWs are not going to allow the big single shots on the line.  Not gonna happen. If you want to use a Milspec weapon in a cowboy style match, your best bet is going to be GAF. We are formulating rules for just this sort of thing.

 Join it, encourage it, maybe have a Mini Muster side match, or try a Muster Match at your club on a 5th weekend, if there can be enough interest shown.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Blackey Cole

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2006, 11:34:21 am »
What no Hollywood class?
Also where do you get a TO&E?
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Offline Blackey Cole

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2006, 11:36:34 am »
Current SASS alows the Spencer in the origianl cartridge? plus the pistol caliber versions that were reproduced to be legal before this year.
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Offline Books OToole

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2006, 12:01:25 pm »
Driydock;

According to Griz the KVC tests all new targets with a hot .45-70.  If it breaks, it was a defective target.

Blackey;

HMMMMM. Since we are starting from the ground up, we can do anything we want.

I just rewatched Major Dundee last night.  Some effort was made to be weapons correct.  The cartridge conversions for cap & ball pistols were better than Peacemakers.  They called their rifles Henrys but they were really brass plated '92s without a forestock.  This was pretty neat since the film was made before any Henry reproductions were available.  Lt. Graham's "baby howizer" should have be a 12 pound Mountain Howitzer. [Now that would have been too cool.]

Hmmmm.  A Hollywood class for those who just want to shoot SASS in a uniform of sorts.  I think that would be okay, as long as there are also some authentic classes.

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Offline Pawnee Bill

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2006, 12:15:41 pm »
Why is there so much effort being made to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Authentic military arms of the Victorian era are not compatable with SASS or NCOWS rules regarding what arms can be used.

The GAF needs to develope its own rules, classes, etc.

Weapons & Uniforms must be matched for the era portrayed.  For military personell they must unit's TO& E for the era.



And the final product will be far superior.

Just the humble opinion of an old military living-historian. (Who is becoming a decent CAS shooter.)

Michael "Books" Tatham
Capt. 5th Kansas Battery
Acting Artillery Commander, Dept. of Missouri
Although I don't really have a dog in this fight I agree it's kinda like reinventing the wheel
Cheers
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Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2006, 01:28:41 pm »
I don't see it as reinventing the wheel.  I see it as making the wheel bigger.  Now, if you look at the idea of a Military catagory and the guidelines in which I wrote, nobody is proposing to use big bore stuff or change the way the SASS Game is played.  As with B-Western and Classic Cowboy, it is a catagory based on costuming and other accoutraments.  And it has the same merits of B-Western and Classic Cowboy.

Now, that being said, as a SASS Catagory, I am about to be blunt here, I don't give a hoot or a holler about complete and total authenticity.  I dress mostly authentic, but that's me....Also, being a SASS Catagory, under SASS guidelines, Hollywood Military impressions are not only allowed, but they are welcomed with open arms.  Also, under SASS guidelines, Big Bore Rifles are not allowed in main-matches. 

Now, that said, if you want to shoot your Big Bore stuff in a main match, checkout Sgt Drydock's thread on the subject.  Also, I strongly urge that before taking the time to post a response to a thread, we take the time to reflect on the meaning of the post.  The Military Catagory has been proposed to the SASS Wild Bunch as a new catagory, so that would mean that all SASS rules would apply to the catagory.  That means no Big Bores in the main match, Hollywood looks are fine.  All SASS rules for main match guns, ammo and safety would apply.  Many are reading way too much into this and interjecting their thoughts and ideas, while mudding the intention.  Many are doing so, because they have not read nor taken care to understand the point of this post, which has been clearly posted with in the thread. 
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Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2006, 01:32:23 pm »


Hmmmm.  A Hollywood class for those who just want to shoot SASS in a uniform of sorts.  I think that would be okay, as long as there are also some authentic classes.


Gee Mike, I am glad you approve.  Does this mean you are going to join SASS now?  Buy the way, this is what the entire thread was about....I know it can be hard to rake through all the muck, but you got it....
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Offline Books OToole

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2006, 02:14:01 pm »
Rich;

Sorry about high-jacking your thread.  :-[  I thought it would be a good place to start a discussion of creating a real Military Action Shooting organization.  I believe that the GAF has that potential, but we have to think outside the SASS/NCOWS boxes.

And no on joining SASS.  I refused to join NCOWS until they created a 2 gun class.  If SASS were to do that, I might consider joining.

The quote that you used regarding a "Hollywood Class" was in the context of a new Organization.  [I don't really care what SASS does, I don't have a horse in that race.]

Books
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 02:19:07 pm by Books OToole »
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Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2006, 02:26:58 pm »
Rich;

Sorry about high-jacking your thread.  :-[  I thought it would be a good place to start a discussion of creating a real Military Action Shooting organization.  I believe that the GAF has that potential, but we have to think outside the SASS/NCOWS boxes.

And no on joining SASS.  I refused to join NCOWS until they created a 2 gun class.  If SASS were to do that, I might consider joining.

The quote that you used regarding a "Hollywood Class" was in the context of a new Organization.  [I don't really care what SASS does, I don't have a horse in that race.]

Books

You know, the idea of a MAS or as I once called it, FMAS, is a dang fine one.  Great idea for nitch marketing.  No worries about the hijacking, this thread has been high jacked so many times, now even Lebanon will not allow it to be read there.... ;)
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Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Proposed Military Catagory
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2006, 09:04:34 am »
Not looking to change the GAF Muster or to disaffiliate with NCOWS.  As a matter of fact, in reality, GAF has nothing to do really with the proposed shooting catagory.  It's not "GAF Approved."  There was no "GAF Committee."  This is just my effort to get like-minded SASS shooters together and show SASS that there is interest in this potential catagory.
Major Matt Lewis
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