New USFA Owner

harbor2 · February 05, 2010, 02:06:51 AM

Hello to the forum,

I have a USFA SAA in .45 Colt with a 5.5 barrel and a extra .45 acp cylinder. I am having trouble finding a load for the .45 Colt. I am using both the 454190 and 452424 Lyman bullets for it with a brinell from 10-15. It is leading the cylinder chambers and the forcing cone and just alittle in the barrel beyond the cone. Also lead on the frame on both sides of the cone and towards the bottom. I have tried sizing .453 and straight from the 452424 mould at .455-.456 and it still leads. I have tried Lyman's alloy #2 to no avail. I don't have access to wheel weights. I do have tin and lead. Maybe try 15 lead to 1 tin? The 454190 bullet is very accurate but the leading is a drag. The only powders I have are Unique and W231. I do have some Oregon Trail 250gr I haven't tried. Maybe with their hard bullet it might do the trick. I have tried from 8 to 8.5grs Unique and 7.2 W231. The Uniques leaves the cases black and the W231 cases come out shiny, good seal there. The chambers slug at .452.5 and the barrel is .450. Any suggestions on how I can keep the leading down? I know this is a mouthful but I am stumped. Thanks and this is a great site.

harbor2

Doc Sunrise · February 05, 2010, 03:31:59 AM

I am not a handloader anymore, and never worked on loading 45's. The best loading person that I have seen is Brian Pearce from Handloader Magazine, and he is personally familiar with USFA guns. He has also written some articles on USFA firearms.

Charlie Bison · February 05, 2010, 04:09:32 PM

Open the Forcing Cone to 11 degrees. Works like a charm.

harbor2 · February 05, 2010, 05:55:48 PM

Thank you Doc and Charlie for the replies. I was under the assumption the forcing cone came from the factory with the 11 degree angle. Guess not. Can I purchase the tool from Brownells and do it myself or is this a gunsmith job. Thanks.

harbor2

Charlie Bison · February 05, 2010, 09:55:31 PM

Quote from: harbor2 on February 05, 2010, 05:55:48 PM
Thank you Doc and Charlie for the replies. I was under the assumption the forcing cone came from the factory with the 11 degree angle. Guess not. Can I purchase the tool from Brownells and do it myself or is this a gunsmith job. Thanks.

harbor2

You can, but I would recommend taking it to a local reputable gunsmith. The most I have been charged is $25.

Ten Wolves Fiveshooter · February 05, 2010, 10:27:38 PM

I was under the impression the forcing cone was already cut at 11 degrees, I had a conversation with a smith about that, that's what was told to me at least four years ago. I'd like to hear it from a USFA associate to confirm this.

tEN wOLVES

$:-\$

Charlie Bison · February 06, 2010, 08:19:57 AM

Quote from: Ten Wolves Fiveshooter on February 05, 2010, 10:27:38 PM

I was under the impression the forcing cone was already cut at 11 degrees, I had a conversation with a smith about that, that's what was told to me at least four years ago. I'd like to hear it from a USFA associate to confirm this.

tEN wOLVES $:-\$

I was under the impression they were not. A good example is why would Longhunter state he cuts all USFAs forcing cones to 11 degrees for their action jobs.

jdpress · February 06, 2010, 11:11:56 AM

Dear Harbor:

Welcome to the forum. It is always great to have a new, shooting member!

I would recommend that you try IMR Trail Boss powder. I have found that it burns cleaner than Alliant Unique powder and also with significantly less felt recoil for about the same velocity. In addition, I seem to have less lead on the front of my cylinder when loading with Trail Boss. Accuracy is also excellent.

I have been using The Bullet Works cast lead bullets for both the Unique and Trail Boss loads. Their bullets are cast using a different mixture of 2% Tin 8% Antimony and 90% Lead with Magma bullet lube.

http://www.thebulletworks.net/category-s/29.htm

Good shooting,

J.D. Press

Fairshake · February 06, 2010, 01:11:04 PM

Welcome to being the owner of USFA revolvers. The USFA does not come with the 11 degree forcing cone and it has to be cut by using the correct tools. What is the lube you are using ? Trying to make the bullet harder will add to your problem. It sounds as if you are not getting a good seal when firing which leads to leading in the forcing cone area. I would try bullets in the 10 BHN area that are .001 to .002 over the bore diameter. Call Long Hunter about the forcing cone fix or a good local full time smith that knows revolvers. Unique does shoot dirty but it is one of the best for accurate loads in all big bore guns. You might want to give Clays a look also. Later Fairshake

Charlie Bison · February 06, 2010, 01:16:20 PM

I am a adoring fan of trailboss. If you want to see how accurate my loads were check out.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,30666.0.html

It was 4 grains under a 200gr flat nose in a 45 cowboy special.

harbor2 · February 10, 2010, 09:57:10 PM

Thank you all for the replies. Grateful for the knowledge and expertise. I might be able to find some Trail Boss and I am going to try a harder alloy. I have the RCBS 230gr CM mould and will give it a go. Will size it at .453 and Veral's soft blue lube. Will let you know the results if winter here cooperates. Thanks again.

jdpress · February 11, 2010, 08:55:31 AM

Harbor:

Thank you for taking the time to provide us all feedback on your plans and also for incorporating most of our ideas.

Good luck and we look forward to seeing your results!

J.D. Press

Grogan · February 14, 2010, 12:00:41 PM

If you go back and look at Keith and see what he wrote, he used a 1:10 Sn/Pb alloy.

But as someone else pointed out, if what you're seeing is real, true "Leading" (melted Lead from blowby) your situation will only become worse as the more Tin added to the alloy actually LOWERS the meltiing temperature.

From what I've seen in USFA revolvers .452" bullets should work fine.

An 11 degree Forcing Cone couldn't hurt.

My 2 Cents.

harbor2 · February 16, 2010, 05:22:57 PM

I do appreciate the feedback on my leading problem. I recently tried the RCBS 230cm. 14 brinell sized at .452.5 and 6.5 grs of Trail Boss at 719 fps. First three in the 10x dead center. Leaded in all chambers and forcing cone with splotches on frame. I am getting real good at lead removal, copper pot scrubber and Lewis lead remover. I have been able to find several pounds of WW and will give that a try with Universal Clays powder. Should I water quench the bullets or air dry? And I have heard the WW composition has changed. What should I look out for? One thing I have noticed is just before the step in each chamber you can see reamer marks. Is this normal? A fired case inserted just about covers the marks which shouldn't effect the bullet base. I have a .45 acp cylinder for this pistol and the marks are absent in it. Well, hopefully this weekend I can give it another try. Wish me luck.

John

harbor2 · February 24, 2010, 10:55:01 PM

Well I managed to secure some WW. A friend gave me four halibut jigs which yielded 6 pounds. The RCBS CM bullets came out 235 grs. I sized 18 at .452 and another 18 at .453 lubed with LBT soft blue and loaded over 8.2 grs of Universal Clays. Velocity average was 719 fps. With the .452 I had leading in two chambers and the forcing cone but extremely accurate at 15 ft. Trying the .453 all the chambers leaded including the cone. Still accurate but just a little less then the first group. There was unburned powder in several cases of both loads.

My thoughts are to stick with the .452 and try 8.2 grs of Unique and see if the bullet will bump up in the two larger chambers. Hopefully with more pressure the leading will at least be minimal. And on it goes.

John

Grogan · February 28, 2010, 11:59:58 AM

John,

I can't help but wonder if going towards WW metal might not be going the WRONG way?!!

Seems to me that by going "harder" your chances of "bumping up" are going to diminish.

Gee, this problem you're experiencing sure seems strange to me.

I have 2 USFA .45s that I've fired quite a bit using commonly available commercially cast .452" bullets with no trace of Leading, Lead Streaking, or anything wrong with their performance.

I can't remember anybody else on here mentioning any similar problems either.

Hmm...

Grogan · February 28, 2010, 08:41:04 PM

John,

I just went back and re-read your original post with all your measurements and data.

Reading what you wrote, I'm strongly wondering if you don't have a Cylinder indexing problem?

I'd seriously consider boxing that revolver up and sending it off to Long Hunter and have him check it out as well as open up your Forcing Cone to 11 Degrees.

It may be that opening the Forcing Cone a little might steer the bullets into the barrel better?

It really sounds like you might be shaving Lead to me.

Remember the larger diameter bullets should seal BETTER than smaller ones.

True Leading is gas cutting caused by a poor seal.

harbor2 · February 28, 2010, 10:38:28 PM

Grogan, thank you for the reply. Can you tell me what commercial lead bullets and loads you are using? I have mainly Unique and W231 for powder. Thanks again.

John

Grogan · March 01, 2010, 12:21:54 AM

John,

Well sorta.

I just went out to check the plastic box I have those .45 cal. bullets in.

These are some I bought from a friend I used to work with, probably 18 yr.s ago. (He'd had a .45 Colt, and when he sold it he had these bullets kicking around and I bought them from him)

I noticed I'd cut the mfg.'s name off the original label keeping only the nomenclature of the particular bullet intact to be taped onto my plastic storage box. So the company's name is gone (and I believe the company is also).

My bullets are 255 g "Keith Style" SWCs with a slight bevel to their base. My best guess is they're probably one of the "standard" .45 cal. moulds available from Magma for their Automatic Casting machines (that most commercial casters use). The bullets are lubed with some commercial Smokeless Lube that's dark blue in color.

Anyway, these are Hardcast alloy and my load is 8.0g of Unique.

I'm getting low on this supply of bullets and have stocked up on a few thousand 200g RNFP made by Desperado Bullets, which are supposedly a softer alloy, and lubed with a lube they claim is suitable for either Smokeless or Blackpowder. I haven't tried these yet, but they seem to be a popular bullet with CAShooters around here (because they're made locally).

Addendum: Going to Magma's site: http://magmaengineering.com/PDF/BBOct132008b.pdf it appears my bullet style is "45 255 SWC BB" (sounds reasonable?)

harbor2 · March 01, 2010, 01:44:45 PM

Grogan,

Thanks, I will check Desperado and see what they offer. I think my problem was using alloys that were too soft and the bullet size was too big. The alloys I was using had alot of tin mixed in. I want to try a commercial bullet to see how it shoots. The RCBS 230CM mould I have is very accurate in this gun. Thanks again Grogan.

John