Damascus Bowie

[Dusty Ed]

Howdy Pards
Here is a Damascus Bowie I just finished putting together.
Dusty Ed 

[James-G]

Nice work Dusty

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hi,

I know what you mean ... there is just something about Damascus ...

Here is one that Chuck Burrows worked for me ...

[Jake MacReedy]

Dusty Ed, that's one fine-looking Bowie!  You should be proud of that one!  It'll make a fine addition to your gear, I'm sure.

Jake

[Eloy Santa Cruz]

@ Wadd Watson Ellis,

That is one fine lookin' bowie. Did that come from Chuck?

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Eloy,

When I admitted to Mr Burroughs that I would never be able to afford one of his exquisite custom knives, he offered to take the stock Indian Knife and 'customize' it: a kindness that I could not refuse ... here is a pic of the knife as it came to him:

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Those are some beautiful blades. Here is one that my brother-in-law gave me.  It is a Russian ZOK hunting knife made of a type of damascus called "bulat."  I patched together some references on ZOK and its heritage:

Zlatoustovskaya Oruzhejnaya Kompaniya, ZOK, is descended from the famous 19th Century Arms Factory founded in Zlatoust, Russia to produce armaments for the Russian army and the Russian fleet. German armorers from Solingen and Klingental were invited to share their experience at Zlatoust. Among them was the famous craftsman of blade decoration Wilgelm Schaf, who, along with his sons, decorated the first Zlatoust blades.

ZOK makes a propietary version of the famous Damascus steel for its knives. The solid basis of traditional black Damask is laminated spring silicochromium steel 70C2XA. 1.7% Si and 0.4% Cr add high wear-resistance and a razor's sharpness to the blade's cutting edge. The quantity of layers is 320; the total proportion of solid layers is 70%, which of mild layers is 30%. Tempering hardness is HRC 58. To ensure the conditioning of the inner layers and enhance their strength, forging is followed by subcooling. Heat treatment in reduced gas medium and accurate temperature conditions guarantee the blade's high mechanical and cutting properties.  Handle is birch bark.

Bulat is a type of steel alloy known in Russia from medieval times.  The secret of bulat manufacturing was lost by the beginning of the 19th century. Pavel Petrovich Anosov eventually managed to duplicate the qualities of that metal in 1838, when he completed ten years of study into the nature of Damascus steel swords. Bulat became popular in cannon manufacturing, until the Bessemer process was able to make the same quality steels for far less money.

Anosov had entered the Saint Petersburg Mine Cadet School in 1810, where a Damascus steel sword was stored in a display case. He became enchanted with the sword, and was filled with stories of them slashing through their European counterparts. In November 1817 he was sent to the factories of Zlatoust mining region in the southern Urals, where he was soon promoted to the inspector of the "weapon decoration department".

Here he again came into contact with Damascus steel of European origin (which was in fact pattern welded steel, and not at all similar), but quickly found that this steel was quite inferior to the original from the Middle East. Anosov had been working with various quenching techniques, and decided to attempt to duplicate Damascus steel with quenching. He eventually developed a methodology that greatly increased the hardness of his steels.

[Eloy Santa Cruz]

@ WaddWatsonEllis,

That was a handsome knife even before Chuck worked his magic with it. He really made a diamond shine.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I don't want to get too academic, but this thread set me onto Mr. Google again.  I learned that what we call "Damascus" steel for blades should properly be called "pattern welded"

Genuine damascus steel is the result of very careful use of CRUCIBLE STEEL production developed almost 2000 years ago.  One version was called "Wootz", usually associated with Southern India.  The other from Central Asia is called by the Russians "Bulat" a version of a Persian term, with variations in different regions. The crucible process  combined with careful forging and heat treating resulted in a metal containing softer and harder particles that combined toughness and edge holding ability.  The crytsaline structure results in the visible pattern

Regardless, both procedures result in a mix of softer tougher iron (or steel) and harder carbonized steel to take advantages of each material.

http://hofstra.academia.edu/AnnFeuerbach/Papers/372247/Crucible_Damascus_Steel_A_Fascination_for_Almost_2_000_Years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel

http://search.babylon.com/?q=bulat+damascus+blades&s=web&as=1&rlz=0&babsrc=HP_ss

I submit this post not to show how smart I am, but only to demonstrate how little I knew! And to perhaps add to the knowledge base of knife users.  (I'm sure the craftsmen already know this stuff.)

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hi,

Truth be told, that lovely knife I own is probably a Wootz steel ...

But to further this thread, I understand that Samurai swords in Japan also use a pattern welding process ... layering it 400-600 times ...

[ChuckBurrows]

Hi,

Truth be told, that lovely knife I own is probably a Wootz steel ...

But to further this thread, I understand that Samurai swords in Japan also use a pattern welding process ... layering it 400-600 times ...

Nope yours is not wootz - it's patten welded "damascus" in some forms known as watered steel. Lots of info on both types out there and on what exactly was the original "damascus" steel also a lot of blather and "advertising" hype (with all due respect like some of the ZOK info). Some will claim it was wootz (bulat is but one form of it), others will say it was pattern welded - both methods go back thousands of years.
The patten in wootz is generally due to the free carbides in the matrix where as pattern welded is always due to the mix of iron and steel or various steels and steels and in the way it is welded up, twisted, formed, etc. Some Japanese blades are pattern welded but others are of the layered/sandwhich method often called San Mai. The patten in the ZOK blade is mostly due to the layering, unlayered wootz usually has a sort of pebble grain when etched.

Pattern welded is the most common form of "damascus" known today - a few makers still use the wootz process, but it's not near ly as common. While both methods have been claimed to have been lost, the fact is neither was.

Some things that makes wootz unique is the crucible method of making, the high carbon content, often 1-1.5%, and the "natural" inclusion of alloys such as vanadium - in areas where wootz was most often made these alloys were often added "accidentally" via the flux (certain grasses for instance were used as flux and they contained the vanadium, etc which had been absorbed from the soil) and other additives. The Huntsman process for making steel - so-called cast steel - is another form of crucible steel first developed in England in 1745 for making springs, and later used for knife and axe blades and by the 1830's for gun barrels. The wootz patten though is not so much a matter of hard an soft per se since it is all steel, but rather the super high carbon content making it a hyper eutectoid steel - the eutectoid point is at .85% carbon and at that point all the carbon will go into solution with the iorn. Above that level of .85% carbon , the carbon particles that don't go into solution will form free carbides, making for bettre edge retention, but can also contribute to brittleness if not properly tempered. Historically pattern welded blades were a mix of high carbon steel and low carbon wrought iron, but most of todays makers use steel with similar carbon contents, but of differing alloy mixes to arrive at a superior blade but still withe a nice pattern. Low layer blades will give a higher contrast (all things being equal) while high layer contents give a much less contrast finished product, especially when highly polished as were most period blades. Also to get the best contrasting pattern the steel is etched in an acid bath such as ferric chloride or vinegar.

Pattern welded "damascus" was (and still is) the most common method used by Euros, Americans, and by East Indians/Pakistanis (where the blade for Wadd's knife originated). While not nearly as common as plain knife/sword steels during the 18th-19th Century, both Perret in his 1787 book, The Art of the Cutler", and a later English book printed in 1813, The Circle of Mechanical Arts, note that it was popular enough for some scofflaws to fake it............

BTW - real wootz due to it's high carbon content can be a REAL pain to forge - it likes to crumble. Pattern welded is generally much easier. The damascus barrels so widely used by high end gunmakers from the late 1700's through the 1940's was generally simple a mix of wrought iron and steel, the patterns depended on how the two were wrapped and twisted together during the forging process.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Chuck Burrows,

Thank you for your thoughtful and fact filled discussion of 'Damascus' steels .... and also thank you for letting me know what my blade is NOT .... *S*. The fact that you were able to discuss the different routes that people took to get to basically the same place without rancor or favorites is very difficult and I am always filled with respect when a person is able to do it .... again, thank you for your (as always) thoughtful post ....

[ChuckBurrows]

you're welcome Skip and IMO getting one's knickers in a knot over most subjects is seldom productive 


also sorry I've been so incommunicado - been a tough last year, but things may actually be looking up soon......I'm still slower than molasses in January but I keep plodding along and getting things done,,,,,,,,

[Jake MacReedy]

Although none of the rancor showed up in this thread...and I would not expect any from this fine group!...it always amazes me when folks start bashing the Indians, and even the Pakistanis, over their edged weapons and cutlery.  Yes, there is some "junk" that comes from both countries, just as there is "junk" that is made in our own.  But these folks have been making edged weapons for, literally, thousands of years...I think they probably have the process  down by now!  This applies, in my humble opinion, particularly to the Indians.  As Chuck stated, they have been making Damascus blades for centuries.  I think they probably have it down pat by now.  I have made a couple of Bowies from the pattern-welded Indian Damascus blades, and have found them very serviceable and able to take and hold a good edge.

If you don't think the Indians could make good blades, just ask the British!

Just my $0.02 worth!

Regards,
Jake

[WaddWatsonEllis]

you're welcome Skip and IMO getting one's knickers in a knot over most subjects is seldom productive 


also sorry I've been so incommunicado - been a tough last year, but things may actually be looking up soon......I'm still slower than molasses in January but I keep plodding along and getting things done,,,,,,,,

Chuck,

Glad to see that you are mending and getting better ... I had sent you a couple of emails and they were returned ... I thought (and still feel) as if I am personna non-gratta .... which is okay I guess as long as you are getting better ....

TTFN,