45-70 Paperpatch expander

[Honest Henry]

I have started loading paper patch bullets.  The first real problem I have run into is getting the case mouth expanded or belled enough to seat the bullet without trashing the paper patch.  My current .457-.458 just doesn't give me enough clearance.  What size expander/beller are the PPers using and where would I start looking for one. 
Thanks in advance for any advice.
 

[Ranch 13]

 The Lyman M die should get the job done as it comes from the factory if it don't you can order a custom sized expander from Buffalo Arms.
 How big are you patching the bullets to/. Most of the time I'm more worried about keeping those .450 diameter  bullets in the case than any problems with seating them.

[ndnchf]

You can get custom expanders from Buffalo Arms.  What size is your patched bullet?  If your patched bullet is near bore size (not groove), then you shouldn't have any problem with the standard expander plug.  I load bore size patched bullets, then run the loaded cartridge into my sizer die (without decapper) to put a little neck tension on the bullet.  With a bore size bullet you can lset it deeply into the rifling (almost like breech seating).  This gets the bullet goin' straigh right off the bat with no tearing of the patch.   

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[Fox Creek Kid]

ndnchf, don't use the sizer to size the loaded PP round as it does not take much for the case mouth to cut the paper and throwing the shot. Size your cases BEFORE loading to the point that the PP bullet will be a snug slip fit in the case. You'll probably get a much better group this way. 

[Honest Henry]

Thanks all for the input.  I have ordered the Lyman M series expander to see how that works.  Should get it next Monday, can't wait to load some more PP bullets.

Honest Henry
 

[Jamie]

I would join several others in suggesting that you check into the total diameter of your patched bullet.  I've gone the cheap route myself (with pretty good success) of taking 405 and 500 grain Lee bullets as cast, sizing them down to .452 in a Lee sizing die, and then wrapping back to .458-9 and loading with standard Lee dies.  Not the ultimate, but cheap and really pretty effective.  I rub 1000 plus lube into the paper.  Make sure what thickness that paper is, and remember that it doubles as you roll the bullet into it since it's on both sides.   

[Herbert]

i youse this method with good results in difrent rifles ,put paper patch on dip 1/4 of patched part of bulet in melted wax let cool then run through a sizing die of desired diemeter,i dont size cases unless necesary, i bell case mouth so pp dosnot tear then seat bulet so it is firm but not crimped

[Honest Henry]

Howdy all
Got the new Lyman expander yesterday and of course ran right out to install and adjust it.  Loaded 4 or 5 rounds while adjusting the OAL.  I adjusted the length so the round just fits in the chamber without binding and the action closes.  The case mouth is now wide enough so I can start the bullet into the case and see that the paper will not be damaged, then use the seating die to finish the process, no crimp used.

Thanks to all for your help.

[Fox Creek Kid]

I would recommend you visit the Shiloh Sharps forum & do a search. You will learn more there in one hour reading on shooting PP bullets than you can do in your lifetime. Please do a search there first as they get annoyed when a new guy posts "Tell me about......"

http://shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php?sid=424e1ca225bfda272412d2589a0a237e

[Ranch 13]

  Bet if you do go there and ask a question the first guy that's gonna nail you about using the search is Boge,right FCK?
 If you go over there and get registered ask away. There'll be plenty of answers coming.

[Fox Creek Kid]

It is a "sticky" on most message forums, such as many forums here on CAS City, whereas it is asked that a newcomer do a search with a generic question as many of these questions have been asked repeatedly before and a person can read years worth of replies in an hour or so and then have all the germaine answers at his/her fingertips. That way any "Charley" from MT or whereabouts will be happy (theoretically). 

[Honest Henry]

I have registered and will search prior to asking questions.
Thanks

Honest Henry
 

[Honest Henry]

Still having problems messing up the paper while inserting into the case, even with the Lyman M expander.  I did shoot all 50 rounds and was on the paper with all shots there was no real control of where they were going.  On the way home I picked up an RCBS universal de-primer which just de-primes with no resizing.  I can slip a .458 bullet into the fire formed case and will try a slight flare on the case to prevent any tearing and then a slight snugging up with the sizing die to hold a bit of pressure on the bullet.  We will see if this provides a tighter group.

Honest Henry
 

[Ranch 13]

What are you using for paper, and what is the patched diameter? Are you wet patching or dry?
 Sort of sounds like you're trying to patch the bullet to large.

[Honest Henry]

Howdy Rancher 13

I am using the Buffalo Arms 25% cotton 9 pound onion skin paper, thickness is 0.0023".  You may be right as the final diameter would appear to be 0.4592.  I am wet patching by licking the paper before wrapping and them using Rooster Jacket Lube/Waterproofing to seal and stick the paper down.  I don't know what the final diameter is when the paper dries down and shrinks on the bullet, only have a cheap dial gauge and can't read down to the thousands, guess I need a digital gauge.
Can't find any .450 PPbullets now so it's back to grease grooves until they come back.

Honest Henry 

[Ranch 13]

If you're shooting black you really need the unwrapped bullet closer to .440-.446,and the wrapped diameter to be somewhere around .448-.452.
 Instead of licking the patch material, just soak it between a soaked cloth. Lay the patch on a piece of hard foam rubber (something like a dry stamp pad will work) and roll the bullet on that. You'll get a tighter roll by doing that. A tighter patch will dry nice and tight and seat in the case easier.