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CAS TOPICS => The Powder Room - CAS reloading => Topic started by: Bunk Stagnerg on September 29, 2020, 01:52:16 PM

Title: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Bunk Stagnerg on September 29, 2020, 01:52:16 PM
Hello the Camp,
Is it a .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Or can it be either and be correct?
To settle a discussion
Thanks
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Cliff Fendley on September 29, 2020, 01:58:59 PM
45 Colt is the official designation.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Bunk Stagnerg on September 29, 2020, 03:26:24 PM
Thank you Cliff that is what I thought and you confirmed it.
Because that is what is stamped on the barrel of my Gen1 .45Colt single actions.
My Regards
Bunk
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Trailrider on September 29, 2020, 03:53:17 PM
"Either, Ither, Neither, Neyether, Let's call the whole thing off!"  You will get endless arguments on the question.  Originally and through the early 20th Century, the term was ".45 Colt" (technically, the gun was, ".45 Colt's Single Action Army Revolver" and the ammo was ".45 Colt's".  Where it got confusing was when the ammo was changed slightly by increasing the rim diameter to handle the ejector "star" on the Colt's and S&W guns with the swing-out cylinders.  Also, since the Army had quit loading the .45 Colt's when the ".45 Revolver Ball" (today know as .45 Schofield) replaced it, some commercial ammo sellers began advertising the original length ammo as ".45 Long Colt".  This was also probably to prevent confusion with the .45 ACP round. Today, most of us refer to the longer cartridge as ".45LC" and everybody knows what we mean.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Reverend P. Babcock Chase on September 29, 2020, 04:38:50 PM
Without regard to Trailriders accurate recitation of the history of the nomenclatures, it was, is and forever will correctly be .45 Colt.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Santo Roberto on September 29, 2020, 05:17:06 PM
since there was never a 45 SHORT colt (yes I know there was a 45 US Army that was shorter) there was never a 'long'.....
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: 1961MJS on September 29, 2020, 08:40:26 PM
"Either, Ither, Neither, Neyether, Let's call the whole thing off!"  You will get endless arguments on the question.  Originally and through the early 20th Century, the term was ".45 Colt" (technically, the gun was, ".45 Colt's Single Action Army Revolver" and the ammo was ".45 Colt's".  Where it got confusing was when the ammo was changed slightly by increasing the rim diameter to handle the ejector "star" on the Colt's and S&W guns with the swing-out cylinders.  Also, since the Army had quit loading the .45 Colt's when the ".45 Revolver Ball" (today know as .45 Schofield) replaced it, some commercial ammo sellers began advertising the original length ammo as ".45 Long Colt".  This was also probably to prevent confusion with the .45 ACP round. Today, most of us refer to the longer cartridge as ".45LC" and everybody knows what we mean.

Thanks Trailrider, I knew that the US Army issued .45 Schofield because it fit both the SAA and the Schofield, but I didn't know that the SAA was originally called .45 Colt's and that the original .45 Colt's was renamed to .45 LONG Colt.  I have a SAA that I can't shoot worth a damn, but I got a 95% on a 25 yard target with a .45 Schofield last weekend.

Later
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Dave T on September 29, 2020, 09:26:33 PM
Today, most of us refer to the longer cartridge as ".45LC" and everybody knows what we mean.

...the SAA was originally called .45 Colt's and that the original .45 Colt's was renamed to .45 LONG Colt...

Sorry but most of us do not refer to it as ".45 LC". In fact I've never seen it so labeled. As for it being called ".45 Colt's", a quick perusal of my copy of "A Study of the COLT SINGLE ACTION ARMY REVOLVER" by Graham, Kopec, and Moore, doesn't show a single entry calling the cartridge anything but the 45 Colt let alone it being re-named a Long Colt.

I was always the 45 Colt and remains to this day as the 45 Colt. By what authority do a few ammo makers, by mislabeling some of their production as "Long Colt", get to change the name of a standard cartridge in use under the correct "45 Colt"  name since 1873?.

Dave
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Abilene on September 29, 2020, 11:29:00 PM
All true.  And I say 45 Colt.  But if someone says 45LC or 45 Long Colt, because they saw it on ammo boxes or whatever, I feel no need to correct them.   I also don't correct people for their/there, your/you're, etc.  I know what they mean, and easier to let 'em remain ignorant.   :)
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: U.S.M.R. on September 30, 2020, 08:24:37 AM
Both Keith in Sixguns and Suydam in Cartridges and Handguns mention S&W length cartridges with Colt size rims by REM-UMC marked .45 Colt.  So there is probably some justification for .45 Long Colt.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Coffinmaker on September 30, 2020, 09:11:16 AM
Ok.  Ok.  Ok.  There is not now, and historically never was a "45 Long Colt".  It is often acknowledged folks will know what you mean when saying 45LC or 45 Long Colt.  Some manufacturers even label their ammunition that way.

Historically:  The cartridge in question was always "45 Colt.  The military also contracted for, and issued 45 Schofield for the Army's 45 Schofield revolvers.  45 Schofield did not fit the chambers of Colt built guns.  the military then contracted for a cartridge, Schofield length, with 45 Colt rim diameter, and called it the 45 Government.

Most of the confusion stems from a whole passel of Magazine Scribes, purporting to "know it all" whom coined the term 45 Long Colt.  The term was parroted to the point it started to become gospel.  Gospel it is not.  45 Long Colt it is NOT.  Those whom advertised guns and ammunition as "45 Long Colt" are in a word, "IGNORANT." 

Hide and Watch

PS:  I forgot.  The only reason for the .45 Government was the military desire for ammunition interchangeable between Colt Single Actions and Schofield Break Tops.  The cartridge had no other real purpose.  Some modern manufacturers have even begun to call their wares as "45 Long Colt."  That be some dumb.

PSS:  The usage of 45LC or 45 Long Colt in no way makes it correct.  Just a more common Parroted WRONG.  Historically, oft quoted Scribes such as E. Keith and Suydam were just as WRONG.  Just more parroted ignorance.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: 1961MJS on September 30, 2020, 10:27:14 AM
Hi

Serious question as opposed to just being a pot stirrer.  If there's no real .45 LONG Colt, and it's .45 Colt, why do all of the current manufacturers use the terminology .45 Long Colt?  It doesn't seem to fill a need.

Later
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Jeremiah Jones on September 30, 2020, 10:46:13 AM
At some point, new terms gain enough traction/usage and become the new normal.  Do you ride around in your horseless carriage?  .45 LC it is.   ;D
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: U.S.M.R. on September 30, 2020, 02:19:16 PM
What I was trying to say was that after the introduction of the Rem-Umc cartridge people may have said they wanted.45 long Colt to mean they didn’t want the Rem-Umc round.  Before that there was no reason to say otherwise.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Coffinmaker on September 30, 2020, 04:00:50 PM

61MJS and Jeremiah J.

Strictly a case of some terminology being Parroted enough, it becomes normal even if it's Wrong.  Ammunition manufacturers are not necessarily shooters.  They are business folks in business to make money.  They happen to market ammunition to make money.  If it seems to the money makers, they will gain more market share if they Parrot "Elmer" or some other famous scribes, they will immediately jump on that bandwagon, right or wrong.

Tell a lie long enough, loud enough and you'll begin to believe it.  .45 Long Colt doesn't fill a need.  The term became a marketing ploy.  In the UK, one doesn't Vacuum the carpet.  You "Hoover" it.  Even if your Vacuum happens to be a Kirby or a Dyson.

Citing the actions of manufacturers as a source of really good information can and will get one sat on a stool, in a corner, with a little pointy hat on.   
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: DeaconKC on September 30, 2020, 05:49:55 PM
There are many examples of this in our sport. .45 Colt vs. .45 Long Colt, Super .38 vs. .38 Super, grips vs. stocks, are revolvers pistols and maybe the greatest of them all clip vs. magazine. [Even though the U.S. Army called it a clip in their manuals on the 1911.] Marketing, writers, folks trying to explain what they mean, etc have all played a part in this. Some folks being inaccurate, drives them crazy. Others ignore it, some bother trying to explain it to newbies until their eyes glaze over. Oh, I forgot bullets vs. cartridges. And hearing cocking sounds on Glocks on TV shows...
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Reverend P. Babcock Chase on September 30, 2020, 06:25:53 PM
What about some calling bullets "heads" or worse "bullet heads". At our shoots, just to get a rise out of someone, I refer to fired cartridges as "empty bullets" and shot shells as "shotgun bullets". I do know the correct names, but it's fun to watch folks react.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Abilene on September 30, 2020, 06:39:02 PM
What about some calling bullets "heads" or worse "bullet heads". At our shoots, just to get a rise out of someone, I refer to fired cartridges as "empty bullets" and shot shells as "shotgun bullets". I do know the correct names, but it's fun to watch folks react.

Now that's funny!   ;D
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Niederlander on September 30, 2020, 06:41:52 PM
A friend of mine and I used to drive the range officers of our agency nuts by asking things like "Do we get more bullets for our clips?"  We generally got an entirely satisfactory reply!
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Crow Choker on September 30, 2020, 09:59:43 PM
A friend of mine and I used to drive the range officers of our agency nuts by asking things like "Do we get more bullets for our clips?"  We generally got an entirely satisfactory reply!

Besides the Rev's post---this is funny too!  ;D ;D

Back years ago I called the 45 Colt, the 45 Long Colt because I saw that alot on ammo boxes and in some magazine articles. After I got edge-i-cated I referred to it as the 45 Colt, the 1911 fodder as 45acp, and all of the other off spring by whatever every one else called them. In my area it's pretty common to hear some refer cat-ridges as just "bullets", ie. "I'm out of bullets or I need to buy some bullets", sort of street slang verbalization! Some years back I called into a radio talk show after getting tired of the radio personality who was using "bullets" all the time in talking about some wack-o who shot up a place and all the "bullets that were shot and bullets found and how many bullets the magazine held after the police sent the shooter to meet his maker. Didn't even get on as the call screener told me I didn't know what I was talking about when I told her the difference between a bullet and a cartridge and her boss should be using the right terminology. She advised he knew what he was talking about. OK, whatever trips thee ol trigger.  :D ;D     45 Long Colt or 45 Colt, either works for me, I know what someone is referring to.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Trailrider on October 01, 2020, 01:33:32 PM
Often times common usage will change nomenclature. When you have to blow your nose, do you reach for a kleenex? How about if you want to tape something? Do you use scotch tape? If you have a headache or your doctor recommends you take a "baby aspirin"? Those were/are copyrighted brand names of Kimberly Clark, 3M and Bayer, respectively, but common usage has rendered them often-used terms. Words in our language also change meaning. Years ago, a beautiful girl was termed a "handsome woman", whereas today we

 For many younger shooters, using ".45 Long Colt" distinguishes that cartridge from, say ".45ACP" or ".45 Schofield"

 "In olden days a glimpse of stocking was looked on as something. Now, Heaven knows...anything goes!"
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Dave T on October 01, 2020, 03:23:44 PM
For many younger shooters, using ".45 Long Colt" distinguishes that cartridge from, say ".45ACP" or ".45 Schofield"

So you're saying "45 Colt" can't be distinguished from "45 ACP" or "45 Schofield", but "45 long Colt" can? And this apparently applies mostly to young shooters?

I'm too old for this. Get me out of here,
Dave
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Abilene on October 01, 2020, 03:26:25 PM
Since some folks like to call their 44 Mag the Extra Long Russian, would 454 Casull be 45 Extra Long Colt?
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: FriscoCounty on October 04, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
.45 Colt correct.  That said, there are reference to .45 Long Colt dating back to the 1870s by US Army personnel as a way of differentiating between the Colt cartridge and the compromise .45 Caliber Ball cartridge which chambered in both the S&W and Colt. 

The .45 caliber cartridge developed by Colt for the US Army trials in early 1873 was a 255gr bullet and 40gr of BP.  By June 1874, the Army Ordinance department reduced the loading to 250gr and 30gr of BP.  On August 20, 1874 the Frankfurt Arsenal stopped production of the Colt's Revolver, Cal .45.  In early 1875 a compromise cartridge that could be chambered in both the S&W and Colt revolvers was introduced.  It used a 230gr bullet and 28gr of BP.  It was termed Revolver Ball Cartridge, Calibre, .45.  Around 1882 the cartridge switched from being Berdan primed to Boxer.  Some other minor changes resulted in the M1887 Ball Cartridge, introduced in 1887.  This was the sole US Government revolver cartridge until the introduction of the .38 Long Colt in 1892.  The .45 ACP was based on the ballistics of the M1887 Ball Cartridge, not the .45 Colt.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Dave T on October 04, 2020, 05:26:27 PM
OK, since the 45 Colt cartridge was dead as far as the Ordnance Dept was concerned by 1874, perhaps it should have been re-named the 45 Spit & Piddle. Then we wouldn't be arguing over "Long" vs "Colt".

Goodness knows what the civilians were calling it? Couldn't possibly have been anything as simple or descriptive as "45 Colt". Maybe they called it the "45 Caliber the Army Used to Have", or the 45 CAUH for short. (smile)

Dave

Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Abilene on October 04, 2020, 05:52:50 PM
I can imagine walking into a general store and saying "I need a box of .45's" and the clerk says "Colt or Smith?"
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Reverend P. Babcock Chase on October 04, 2020, 06:30:38 PM
In a terrible western from years ago, starring Mickey Rourke as the primary bad guy. As he and his henchmen were escaping, they stopped to count their ammo. They said they had a lot of 44/40 and some 45/40. Hey, I said it was it was terrible. What do you expect from a western with Mickey Rourke.

Rev. Chase
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 05, 2020, 12:12:43 AM
Why do people insist on calling it .45 Long Colt?
The grand tradition and long history of "short" "regular" and "Long" cartrdige designation!

for many many lustrum there was a common tradition of introducing a cartridge,
then making it longer and more powerful. I offer for you rentertaintmant the following:

.22 short, long, long rifle
.32 colt
.32 Short Colt
.32 Long Colt
.32 S&W
.32 S&W Long ( .32 Colt New Police)
.38 Short Colt
.38 Long COlt
.38 S&W
.380 Revolver Short
.380 Revolver Long
.41 Short Colt
.41 Long Colt
.41 Special
.45 Schofield (aka .45 S&W )
.45 Colt Government ( aka .45 Colt Short )
.45 Colt (aka .45 Long Colt )



=================================

While it is sometimes referred to as .45 Long Colt or .45 LC, to differentiate it from the
very popular .45 ACP, and historically, the shorter .45 S&W Schofield, it was only an unofficial
designation by Army quartermasters.

Current catalog listings of compatible handguns list the caliber as .45 LC and .45 Colt.

many gun rag writers put together so-callerd "debate articles" during slow months.

one such said it nicely:

snip-----------------------------------------
"So is it 45 Colt or 45 Long Colt?

While either term is correct, 45 Long Colt was really just a nickname. The majority of ammunition manufacturers stamp their cases with “45 Colt” as do the majority of firearm manufacturers mark their firearms with the same.

The reason for this is because .45 COLT is the official name used by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI). When all else fails, this is the correct term to which we fall back."
endsnip-----------------------------------------


If anyone is so bored they have nothing else to do than argue over this tired old topic, please
feel free to contact me, as I would be more than happy to put anyone to work taking care
of my growing todo list at the 1967 historic rate of $1 per hour.

Oh I know! Lets have a Spelling Contest!

https://youtu.be/t2PXlUjWz5M (https://youtu.be/t2PXlUjWz5M)

yhs
prof marvel
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 05, 2020, 08:15:21 AM

 :o  You gotta be kidding!!   :o

Two pages going on three, kicking around a question answered early on in page one.

Peanuts !!  Popcorn !!  Cracker Jacks !!  Get yer Cold Beer Here !!   ::)   ;D




ps:  Especially since the answer is so durn SIMPLE   ::)

pss:  The KEY question here this week.  Will we make it to PAGE THREE   8)

 :P
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Niederlander on October 05, 2020, 08:42:12 AM
I wonder why people get so burned up about ".45 Long Colt", when nobody worries about .44-40, .30-30, .30-40, etc?  They all started out with different designators, as well, but no one seems to get all heated up about it.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: The Pathfinder on October 05, 2020, 02:30:06 PM
Aw, c'mon, Coffinmaker, don't point out the truth, heck it's fun watching all the confusion we're adding. And as Niederlander said, they haven't even started on the 44 WCF, 30 WCF, and 30 Army etc yet. ;D
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 05, 2020, 04:08:31 PM
Ah My Dear Coffin....

It’s not like we have an overabundance of scheiss topics to discuss at the moment, and at least this one is innoccuous inocuus wont make peoples heads explode.

There I just became the first one to drop out of the Spelling Contest..  :'(

Yhs
Prof mumbler
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Dave T on October 05, 2020, 05:49:18 PM
I wonder why people get so burned up about ".45 Long Colt", when nobody worries about .44-40, .30-30, .30-40, etc?  They all started out with different designators, as well, but no one seems to get all heated up about it.

I beg to differ, Sir. There are those of us who believe words mean things and proper usage is, well, proper usage.

I for one have always objected to 44-40 instead of the more proper 44 WCF, to 30-30 instead of 30 WCF, to 30-40 instead of the 30 US Army, not to mention the bastardization of the 38 WCF to 38-40 and the 32 WCF to 32-20.

Oh the shame, the shame I tell you! (smiley face goes here)

Dave
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Niederlander on October 05, 2020, 06:42:20 PM
Alright, I won't slap someone if they ask if my '95 is in .30-40 Krag..............
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Bunk Stagnerg on October 07, 2020, 09:31:41 PM
Guys please enough already,
The question is now moot because now mostly when I shoot those new fangled cat-ridge guns my choice is the .45 Colt SHORT (AKA .45 Cowboy Action Special).
But due to the good influence of a retired gun plumber we all know and love most shooting now is done with cap & ball snub nose revolvers.
But thanks for the history lessons. I suspected that .45 Colt was correct because guess what is stamped on the barrel of my 1909 manufactured Colt Single action....wait for it


".45 Colt".
Respectfully
Bunk
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Major 2 on October 08, 2020, 12:01:48 AM
and with that ...it seems no mater the length Colt 45 ,  is still Colt 45   :)
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Cap n Redneck on October 08, 2020, 03:42:07 AM
Hahaha..!  ;D
Major 2:  You Sir, have just made the best argument for ".45 Colt"...!  Cheers!  8)
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 08, 2020, 09:28:09 AM

 :)  Ah HA   ;)

PLUS ONE too Major 2

and

PLUS ONE too Cap n Redneck

Pardon whilst I lever the lid offa Dead Guy you betcha
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Reverend P. Babcock Chase on October 08, 2020, 02:11:20 PM
since there is a question if we'll get to 3 pages, let me throw this turd into the punchbowl:

Which is right a dash or a slash? 45-70 or 45/70, plus all the other dash/slash cartridges. I'm a slash man myself.

Rev. Chase
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: greyhawk on October 08, 2020, 04:08:25 PM
since there is a question if we'll get to 3 pages, let me throw this turd into the punchbowl:

Which is right a dash or a slash? 45-70 or 45/70, plus all the other dash/slash cartridges. I'm a slash man myself.

Rev. Chase

Rev
Ya need to use the dash cuz if ya use a slash yr conmputer is gonna throw a fit and will not file any slash info for ya ----I like you, prefer the slash but Bill Gates has rendered it un useable for our purpose ----did somebody mention a turd in the punchbowl?
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Trailrider on October 08, 2020, 04:40:07 PM
since there is a question if we'll get to 3 pages, let me throw this turd into the punchbowl:

Which is right a dash or a slash? 45-70 or 45/70, plus all the other dash/slash cartridges. I'm a slash man myself.

Rev. Chase
The dash is correct. Sometimes with a period before the first figure since it is designating a caliber. It wasn't uncommon to designate a cartridge with the caliber-powder charge-bullet weight, as in .45-70-405. Kinda like that patent medicine of the 1940's, "Hadacol". They "hadda call it something".
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Reverend P. Babcock Chase on October 08, 2020, 09:52:06 PM
Greyhawk: I don't think my Apple has a problem with slashes.

Trailrider: if the unwashed masses can use 45 Long Colt, I will continue to use slashes.

By the way I take great pride in getting us to 3 pages. Anyone want to go for 4?

Rev. Chase
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Dave T on October 09, 2020, 10:29:32 AM
You've heard the expression "Beating a Dead Horse". Well if this discussion makes it to page 4 there will be nothing left of the poor nag but a greasy spot on the road. (smile)

Dave
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Abilene on October 09, 2020, 01:26:20 PM
I thought maybe "Long Colt" ammo was what you needed to buy if you have a buntline.   :D
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: greyhawk on October 09, 2020, 06:58:39 PM
Greyhawk: I don't think my Apple has a problem with slashes.

Trailrider: if the unwashed masses can use 45 Long Colt, I will continue to use slashes.

By the way I take great pride in getting us to 3 pages. Anyone want to go for 4?

Rev. Chase

seeing that we seem destined for a fourth page try this and report back - make a file name such as      44/40 targets    using the forward slash somewhere in the string and try to start a new folder with it - one of us will learn something we didnt know before :)
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 10, 2020, 04:29:30 PM

I saw some "Greasy" splotches onna road en-route to and from today's CAS match.  Usta was Ground Hogs.  Better known as Pennsylvania Speed Bumps   ;D

Yee Haw fer Page THREE yessiree Bob.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Abilene on October 10, 2020, 05:53:27 PM
On my 105 mile drive home from the match today I saw the usual greasy spots but also two fairly undisturbed (except they was dead) racoons about a quarter mile apart.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Dave T on October 10, 2020, 06:18:01 PM
It's becoming apparent not very many of you have actually beaten a dead horse. There is a certain style and technique to it that most folks just don't know or understand.

And no I can't spell ambeguity ambagooity aimbegeuity ambiguity.

Dave
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Abilene on October 10, 2020, 07:46:04 PM
I thought maybe we were trying to push the dead horse off a cliff so we don't smell it any more.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 11, 2020, 05:38:17 PM
It's becoming apparent not very many of you have actually beaten a dead horse. There is a certain style and technique to it that most folks just don't know or understand.

And no I can't spell ambeguity ambagooity aimbegeuity ambiguity.

Dave

And Our Good Dave is the next one out of the Spelling Contest!

(didja see what I did? didja? didja?)

yhs
prof amravel
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Reverend P. Babcock Chase on October 11, 2020, 06:11:42 PM
Horseburger anyone?

Rev. Chase
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 12, 2020, 07:19:01 AM

Now that has a certain Gurney Say Qua, don't it!!
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 13, 2020, 04:08:50 AM
I thought maybe we were trying to push the dead horse off a cliff so we don't smell it any more.

Oh My no, just off the side of the road far enough that the Crows, Ravens, Coyotes and Bears can clean it up unmolested by traffic....

whilst we are at it, when  did the Brits stop referring to things by "bore" and actually use cartridge disginatures?

was it when carttridges came into play?

yhs
working on page 4
prf mvl
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 13, 2020, 08:17:59 AM

 :)  Le Grande Perfesser   ;)

YES!!  ah  NO!!  ah  Sort of maybe.  Not necessarily "Cartridges" per say, but more specifically, SMOKELESS cartridges.  The terminology of "Bore" designation by those of a sporting bent, in primarily Grosist Brittannia, introduced in double guns (started in shotguns of course) loaded primarily from the front, as it twer.  The earliest Double Rafles er Rifles being carryovers from smooth bore front stuffed muskets and such.  When the "cartridge" revolution began, the "Big Guns" intended for "Big Game" launched the same size projectiles, just contained in the front of "Cartridges"

The actual death knell of the "Bore" designation waz heralded by the introduction of Cordite and the introduction of "Nitro Express" cartridges as it tizzy's.  Cordite also heralded the introduction of bunches of "new" calibers that were in all actuality "Sub Bore" in diameter which made designations much more di-Fucult.  Like 600 Nitro Express being called "Sub Bore 60 Percent Nitry Espresso".  Way too complex.

SO:

Ah, am I "Boring" anybody yet??  Lemmie work onnit fer a minute.  Be right back > > > > >
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: greyhawk on October 13, 2020, 04:16:56 PM
:)  Le Grande Perfesser   ;)

YES!!  ah  NO!!  ah  Sort of maybe.  Not necessarily "Cartridges" per say, but more specifically, SMOKELESS cartridges.  The terminology of "Bore" designation by those of a sporting bent, in primarily Grosist Brittannia, introduced in double guns (started in shotguns of course) loaded primarily from the front, as it twer.  The earliest Double Rafles er Rifles being carryovers from smooth bore front stuffed muskets and such.  When the "cartridge" revolution began, the "Big Guns" intended for "Big Game" launched the same size projectiles, just contained in the front of "Cartridges"

The actual death knell of the "Bore" designation waz heralded by the introduction of Cordite and the introduction of "Nitro Express" cartridges as it tizzy's.  Cordite also heralded the introduction of bunches of "new" calibers that were in all actuality "Sub Bore" in diameter which made designations much more di-Fucult.  Like 600 Nitro Express being called "Sub Bore 60 Percent Nitry Espresso".  Way too complex.

SO:

Ah, am I "Boring" anybody yet??  Lemmie work onnit fer a minute.  Be right back > > > > >

Spluttering our way to page four ......
was always "gauge"  for smoothbores in my time but I can remember some old dudes - granpa's vintage - would say stuff like "take the twelve bore ya might see a duck"........
If ya seen a duck ya better shoot it cuz fresh duck for dinner was a major advance over rabbit or salted beef
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Bunk Stagnerg on October 15, 2020, 04:52:15 PM
Gentlemen Please,
Enough is enough.
I apologize for starting this whole thing.
Please I beg of you make this post the
LAST ONE 
Prof. Marvel please shut this thing down.
Respectfully
Bunk
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Abilene on October 15, 2020, 08:14:48 PM
But...but...
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Dave T on October 15, 2020, 09:59:04 PM
Gee whiz Bunk. I was just starten' to have fun about page 2!

Dave
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Bunk Stagnerg on October 15, 2020, 10:31:29 PM
THIS IS EMBARRASSING !!!
I may have to name my name to Long Bunk Stagner.
What about the many disguises of the .38
Can we hash them out some?
Hummmmm?
I ain't gonna sign this except for my initials
This is all
BS
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Abilene on October 15, 2020, 11:07:03 PM
How's about this, Bunk?
Which is correct, Bunk Stagnerg or Bunk Stagner?  Just because the former has been in use for quite some time (due to a fat finger when registering, I understand, hehe), does that make it acceptable or correct?  Compared to Colt vs Long Colt, it is exactly the same, except for being completely different.   :D
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: greyhawk on October 16, 2020, 05:01:24 AM
THIS IS EMBARRASSING !!!
I may have to name my name to Long Bunk Stagner.
What about the many disguises of the .38
Can we hash them out some?
Hummmmm?
I ain't gonna sign this except for my initials
This is all
BS

Bunk --- dont quit now weez nearly there page four is just a couple steps away -we might hit ya up fer a prize fer the feller makes the post that does it ...................
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 16, 2020, 08:39:35 AM

 :)  Holy Moly  ;)

Zounds!!  We Beez THERE!!  According to my Lap Warmer (confuser), Greyhawk wins the Kupie Doll for taking us to 4, yessiree Bobb folks, that's FOUR pages!!!!  Four pages of absolutely fascinating content.  More life lessons than Gerry Fallwell.  Holy Smoke.

Perhaps with just a tad more dissection, we can get to Five??  Oh Hopefullness.  Such boundless knowledge cannot be suppressed.  CONTRIBUTE I say.

Hide and Watch 

Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Bunk Stagnerg on October 16, 2020, 11:41:24 AM
about nothing gadzooks!
OK lets go for 5 about nothing
as usual
BS
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: DeaconKC on October 16, 2020, 10:19:45 PM
We definitely need to thank Bunk Slobberer for giving us such an in depth discussion forum! Why just having Coffinmaker drive me to shoving my little finger in the old pencil sharpener to keep up has been worth the price of admission. ;D
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 17, 2020, 04:13:44 AM
Ah My Dear Bunk ---

I fear I cannot kill the thread, it has a life of it's own!

I cogitated upon the subject, and mused out loud, wearopun where upon I could have sworn the thread
grew sad eyes and looked at me like one of those big-eyed sad puppy paintings.

Either that or that the lack of sleep is getting to me... like the time I drove 26 hours straight and saw giant bunnies leaping over the road...

yhs
prof tired
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Major 2 on October 17, 2020, 05:59:48 AM
Ah My Dear Bunk ---

I fear I cannot kill the thread, it has a life of it's own!

I cogitated upon the subject, and mused out loud, wearopun where upon I could have sworn the thread
grew sad eyes and looked at me like one of those big-eyed sad puppy paintings.

Either that or that the lack of sleep is getting to me... like the time I drove 26 hours straight and saw giant bunnies leaping over the road...

yhs
prof tired

Pooka

"P O O K A - Pooka - from old Celtic mythology - a fairy spirit in animal form - always very large. The Pooka appears here and there - now and then - to this one and that one - a benign but mischievous creature - very fond of rum pots, crackpots, and how are you, Professor Marvel ?" "
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Crow Choker on October 17, 2020, 07:46:14 AM
OK, since the difference in terminology in what is proper to use be it 45 Colt or 45 Long Colt has been hashed over, some feel the thread should be locked, some not, I'll take the road of "high-jacking" a thread with this:

Can any of ya 'splain' to me if ya ever heard the term (and use) in 'splainin' what a known object, thing, part of, physical and /or geometrical location, anything that is known to you, but ya don't have the word to properly identify it. I'm talkin' bout the word/term, "Hoot-i-ki" or "Houd-i-ki". Could be spelled 'Houda-ki to, the 'ki' rhymes with sky. It ain't in the cyber-space of words no matter how ya spell it. In my little space of this earth where I live and grew up, if a person while splainin' things, if he (not to many she's) didn't have or want to 'splain' what they were referencing to used the term.

For directions- "Ya go down the road to where that 'Houd-i-ki" is and take a left". Parts-"I don't know where this"'Houd-i-ki' goes or how it fits". For physical parts of the landscape- "I went over that 'Houd-i-ki' on the north side of the crick and got a shot at that big ten pointer". All kinds of possibilities.

Several years ago I was 'splainin' to my full time Army son-in-law about a location east of my residence where a old bridge was taken out several years before and a section of road was built south of it going around the section of creek/crick to avoid buiding a new bridge. When I was a heavy equipment operator, I worked on the project. Loved that job. Mile down the road-could leave at 0655 and be at work by 7 bells! Anyway was telling the son-in-law about the old bridge that was taken out how the original road curved in and around the heavily tree lined timbered area. Always shaded, darker than normal  through there, all us locals called it "Sleepy Hollow"! Anyway, son-law asked me where was that and I advised him "Down the road east where that 'Houd-i-ki' is"! He looked at me and asked "What is a houd-i-ki"? So I 'splained' to him and he laughed and shook his head saying he had never heard that before. Course' he grew up 100 miles east of me. I told him next time he has his troops out (he's a 1st Sgt) or 'splainin' something to his CO about something to use the term. He advised he 'd have to think about that.

Anyway, food for a thought this early Saturday morning-felt like postin something and thought of this. Gotta go outside now and pick up that 'houd-i-ki' the wind blew over in my yard last night!  :o ::) ;D Sure miss that Sleepy Hollow drive through---didn't like the fact that the county didn't replace the old bridge and built that 'Houd-i-ki' around it!!! :'(
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Major 2 on October 17, 2020, 08:28:08 AM
Houd-i-ki   ?   nope  ... 'round it might be called a  doohickey

given rise to ...
 gizmo, thingamabob, thingamajig,, whatchamacallit, whatsis, widget, doodad, doojigger, gimmick
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Crow Choker on October 17, 2020, 08:58:41 AM
Houd-i-ki   ?   nope  ... 'round it might be called a  doohickey

given rise to ...
 gizmo, thingamabob, thingamajig,, whatchamacallit, whatsis, widget, doodad, doojigger, gimmick

All legitimate and accepted terms!!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 17, 2020, 09:09:19 AM

 >:(  Ah Fitzwilly  :(

It's Saturday Morning.  Saturdays Suck (unless I'm shooting somewhere).  All the Kings Horses and all the Kings Boys and Girls are loose from their respective Cubicles.  RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!  The CUBICLEITES are LOOSE.  Clogging up everything.  My weekend runs from Monday thru Friday.  You see, I are Retarded . . . er . . Retired.  Yep, that's it retired.  Really long weekends now.  Except for Saturday and Sunday.  Cubilcleites ya know.

Now, what does this have to do with the OP you might ask.  Absolutely nothing says I.  ZERO, Zip, Nada, Not-a-Thing.  It's Saturday and I'm not shooting.  At means I are bored and am a nuisance.

Hide and Watch.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Bunk Stagnerg on October 17, 2020, 03:56:26 PM
would a discussion on the evils of certain substitutes, especially one that start with a "P" or one that is 111 past the sign of Satan?
Going for 6
Bunk 
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Abilene on October 17, 2020, 04:05:01 PM
Houd-i-ki   ?   nope  ... 'round it might be called a  doohickey

given rise to ...
 gizmo, thingamabob, thingamajig,, whatchamacallit, whatsis, widget, doodad, doojigger, gimmick

Don't forget dillybopper.  :) 
Crow, I never heard of houd i ki
Maybe it was started by somebody who with dyslexia trying to say doohickey?????
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 17, 2020, 05:25:26 PM
Pooka

"P O O K A - Pooka - from old Celtic mythology - a fairy spirit in animal form - always very large. The Pooka appears here and there - now and then - to this one and that one - a benign but mischievous creature - very fond of rum pots, crackpots, and how are you, Professor Marvel ?" "


Why, thank you Harvey,   It is always nice to hear from you :-) ... I hope you are well also...




Since Bunk ... or somebody... brought up "Other Cartrdiges" , particularly the numerous .38's
I thought I would throw oiut my entire list of "older" cartrdiges which both provide some
historical stuff on whichto base the "Long Colt" nomenclature, and which also add to the confusion... or fun...


.22 Short
.22 Long
.22 Long Rifle

.32 S&W
.32 S&W Long (.32 Colt New Police)

.32 Colt [inside-lubricated .32 Long Colt variant]

.32 Short Colt
.32 Long Colt
.320 Revolver (.320 European, .320 Bulldog, .320 Webley)

.38 Short Colt
.38 Long Colt
.38 Special

.38 S&W
.38 Colt New Police
.380 Rim
.38 S&W Corto
.380-200 British Service
.380 Revolver Long [Webley pattern from 1860s]

.41 Short Colt
.41 Long Colt
.41 Long Colt smokeless


.45 Mars Short
.45 Mars Long

.455 Webley (.455 Webley Revolver Mark 1)
.455 Webley (.455 Webley Revolver Mark 2)
.45 Schofield (.45 Smith & Wesson/S&W Schofield)
.45 Colt Government (.45 Colt Short)
.45 Colt (.45 Long Colt)
.450 Adams (.450 Boxer, .450 Revolver, .450 Short/Corto)
.455 Webley (.455 Revolver, .455 Colt)

Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Major 2 on October 17, 2020, 05:36:28 PM
Always loved the movie...
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Bunk Stagnerg on October 17, 2020, 06:45:06 PM
What about the .45 very short Colt, the .45 CAS Adirondack Jack's contribution to hand gunnery?
Major I think you left that one out.
Carrying on the nonsense.
Bunk
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Major 2 on October 17, 2020, 09:13:56 PM
 ;D  that is the good Professor's list  ...
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Bunk Stagnerg on October 17, 2020, 09:43:26 PM
sorry Major,  was so blinded by the brilliance of this discussion I got distracted.
But shiny things  distract me no offense intended Professor.
And Deacon I do not slobber...drool a bit at a Dairy Queen Blizzard  perhaps but not slobber.
BS
.
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 18, 2020, 03:28:42 PM
My Good Major -

I too enjoyed the movie immensely.. until (back in my youth, before the interwebs) I had time to do a serious library search
on Pookahs and found that they were actually a "less than friendly" entity that were said to lure children and other "innocents" to their death,
usually via falls into chasms in fields and whatnot.... rather like the "tommyknockers" in mines.... altho some maintain that "tommyknockers"
are actually trying to warn miners that danger is imminent...

My Dear Bunk -
I did actually, deliberately, without malice, but with forethought leave out the .45 CB or .45 Short Colt as it is a more modernisch device,
and I was after the more  archaic cartridges ( and I fauled the spelling bee again, in my above list) .

In the list was the extreme oddball, the .45 Mars - apparently Webly was experimenting with ugly autos

https://www.militaryimages.net/media/webley-mars-45.29295/full

the wiki article is so amusing I must provide some snips:

snip--------------------
The Mars Automatic Pistol, also sometimes known as the Webley-Mars, was a semi-automatic pistol developed in 1900 by the Englishman Hugh Gabbet-Fairfax and distributed by the Mars Automatic Pistol Syndicate Ltd. of Birmingham. It was manufactured first by Webley & Scott and later by small gunmakers in Birmingham and London. Manufacture ceased in 1907.

The Mars Automatic Pistol is noted for being available in a variety of 8.5 mm, 9 mm and .45 calibres. These were all bottlenecked cartridges with a large charge of powder, making the .45 version the most powerful handgun in the world for a time....

The Mars Automatic Pistol was rejected by the British War Office .... because of the unacceptably large recoil, considerable muzzle flash, and mechanical complexity.

The captain in charge of tests of the Mars at the Naval Gunnery School in 1902 observed, "No one who fired once with the pistol wished to shoot it again".

Shooting the Mars pistol was described as "singularly unpleasant and alarming".
endsnip--------------------

.45 Mars Long Specs:
220 gr  FMJ bullet  at     1,200 ft/s  producing    700 ft⋅lbf

"Ballistics are similar to the .45 Winchester Magnum. "
but no -
.45 Winchester Magnum Specs
230 gr (15 g) JHP at    1,600 ft/s  producing   1,307 ft⋅lbf


thus, we can see it would actually be closer to

the .45 Super
200 gr (13 g) JHP    1200 fps     639 ft⋅lb
230 gr (15 g) FMJ    1100 fps            618 ft⋅lb

or the .451 Detonics Magnum
200 gr (13 g) JHP    1281 fps     729 ft⋅lb



yhs
prof can't spell
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 19, 2020, 09:23:30 AM


 :)  My Good Perfesser   ;)

I find your bringing up of the Mars Automatic Pistol to be curiously refreshing.  Until today, I was unaware of the actual existence of the Webley-Mars in the lexicon of pistolness.  Actually quite interesting.  It also sounds (reads) as such the recoil was some robust as it twer.  Such as I (Wimpasarus) would probably find it somewhat uncomfortable to play with (shoot).

I do not however, find phault with one for Phauling a meir Spelling Bee.  I find mine own spelling to be atrocious enough my spel czech is unable to find a suitable substitute.  Sally Fourth and All.

Hide and Watch
Title: Re: which is correct - .45 Colt or a .45 Long Colt?
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 19, 2020, 04:39:39 PM

 :)  My Good Perfesser   ;)

I find your bringing up of the Mars Automatic Pistol to be curiously refreshing.  Until today, I was unaware of the actual existence of the Webley-Mars in the lexicon of pistolness.  Actually quite interesting.  It also sounds (reads) as such the recoil was some robust as it twer.  Such as I (Wimpasarus) would probably find it somewhat uncomfortable to play with (shoot).

I do not however, find phault with one for Phauling a meir Spelling Bee.  I find mine own spelling to be atrocious enough my spel czech is unable to find a suitable substitute.  Sally Fourth and All.

Hide and Watch

Ahhhh ... perhaps my issue is that I have a Spelling Lithuanian?

falling down the rabbit hole of strange and dead cartyridges can lead to some wierd crap... which can be Great Fun!
The PLethora of strange semi-auto's being invented at the turn of the century is a marvelous topic all by itself!

I once had an encyclopedia of obsolete cartridges .... many were strange European inventions.

That is not even counting the crazy wildcat cartridges.

I was interested in, but never pursued , the .38/45 Clerke , a .45 ACP necked down to take .38 bullets
that was introduced in Guns & Ammo in 1963...

with a  130 gr @ 1,245 ft/s with 445 ft⋅lbf  it was on par with the .38 super 130 FMJ @ 1,215 ft/s  with 426 ft⋅lbf
but the .38 super was already there, readily available, and worked fine atnd had a really burning load of
115 Gr  @ 1,395 ft/s

then came the 9mm Win Mag, the .451 Det, the .45 Win Mag,all the other .45 Magnums :-(  ... 
the 10mm, and the .357 SIG and I got overhwlemed by too many choices  bored and went back to
"old stuff" that did not hurt to shoot. And the Tin Cans, Bowling Pins, and paper/cardboard  targets did not care one wit
what I missed them with!

Now look what you've done, you've made me end my sentance in a propostion!

yhs
prof mangled