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CAS TOPICS => NCOWS => Topic started by: Gomezy3k on October 08, 2019, 06:53:21 pm

Title: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Gomezy3k on October 08, 2019, 06:53:21 pm
Life member 153
In the years I have been getting The Shootist I noticed something.  Where are the young shooters?  It looks like most of the members are getting as old as I am (68) or close to it.  In the last issue of The Shootist I only saw 4 or 5 young people.  We need to figure out a way to bring in more young people to shooting.  I am not sure how to go about it so figured maybe others can come up with some ideas.  Since I am the only NCOWS member here in Vegas (that I know of) I shoot with the SASS group and they are pretty much in the same boat.  I don't recall any young shooters in any of their posse's either.

Anyway just thought I would throw in my 2 cents and see what everyone comes up with.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 08, 2019, 09:30:36 pm

Well .... Actually .... Nah, no help here.  I'm not an NCOWS member (almost, once) but just thought I'd offer that NCOWS and CAS are inna same boat.  Too few newbies.  Kids aren't running around the neighborhoods playing Cowboys and Indians anymore.  Sad.

PS:  Forgot to add (almost), the newbies we have in SASS are really winning real regular.  Youth is totally wasted on the young.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Major 2 on October 09, 2019, 12:14:13 am
Reality has or lack of it has settled in

anyone beyond our Baby Boomer Generation & Generation X  are exposed to electronic games & gadgetry,

Unless Xennials 
Millennials
Generation Y, Gen Next - iGens Generation and Gen Z go with a HIP Granddad  (US) The hobby is lost in 10 - 15  years 20 tops

Gloomy yes.... a few sparks exist a hand full of youths will attend....



Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Pitspitr on October 10, 2019, 01:04:49 pm
Kids aren't running around the neighborhoods playing Cowboys and Indians anymore.  Sad.
Well, if you think about it, how much fun would it really be playing "bovine persons of indiscriminate sex and native americans"?
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Major 2 on October 10, 2019, 01:19:30 pm
"bovine persons of indiscriminate sex and native americans"?  indigenous persons  ?
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Pitspitr on October 10, 2019, 01:40:43 pm
Yep, exactly! Besides, can you really imagine the fuss you'd have if the neighbors saw you chasing a kid in mocasins with a feather on his head with your finger, or God forbid, a pink or purple toy gun pointed at him or her or xi  :o
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Major 2 on October 10, 2019, 02:31:54 pm
they suspend kids today in schools for pointing a finger even if they don't say bang

Then there is case where a 9 year old bit his peanut butter sandwich in the shape of a gun and was expelled ?. EXPELLED for a fricking sandwich shape   :o


Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: River City John on October 10, 2019, 02:37:31 pm
Then again, I recall indiscriminate sex as still a thing among youth . . .
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Pitspitr on October 10, 2019, 02:47:37 pm
Well there is that  ;)

Maybe "undetermined" was the word I should have used?
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: bowiemaker on January 23, 2020, 12:03:32 am
One of the hottest video games in the last couple of years is Red Dead Redemption which has a lot kids playing old west scenarios and has got their attention. There are even some airsoft fields with western towns playing a more real-time version of the game. However, these days if a kid said he wanted to go shoot real cowboys guns his mother would go nuts and the kid would get kicked out of school for mentioning it.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Tascosa Joe on January 23, 2020, 07:33:47 am
We have a few kids, that shoot with us (Berger Sharpshooters and the South Carolina bunch) from time to time.  They are the grand kids of several of the posse members.  Several of them are in there 20's and off to the military or college, which has slowed their participation.  A decent western has not been produced in years, i.e. one that you could take an 8 or 9 year old to see because of the language.  Movies and TV westerns is a big part of why we do this.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Books OToole on January 23, 2020, 10:45:08 am
Trap, I and Col. Diamond have become involved with the 4-H Western Heritage Program.  It is kinda like NCOWS for kids.  They shoot old west style arms, develop personas and learn how the old west really was.  I would encourage posses to look into this program.  We have 3 or 4 4-H WHPs going in Kansas and 2 or three in Missouri.  They are also in California & Montana.

If you are interested in getting one started in your region, I would encourage you to contact Trap.  He started in in Kansas and has mentored others.

Books
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Jeremiah Jones on January 23, 2020, 10:59:16 am
We have priced, ISPC'ed and tuned guns to the point that we discourage young'ns.  Remember 30 years ago: stages shooting from a wagon, stages shooting from a saddle on a barrel, If the Duke would have carried/used/worn it, it is good to go, life size targets.  A lot of fun for F(funny) New Guys.

Now not so much:  need 4 guns (~$2,000), need them tuned (~$1,000), need ~$500 in clothes; then stand upright while shooting at lightning speed at steel targets you could hit by throwing your bullets.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: River City John on January 23, 2020, 11:48:56 am
Preaching to the choir, Jeremiah . . . ;D

RCJ
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Dave T on January 23, 2020, 12:00:38 pm
I would add that another problem is that history, particularly American history hasn't been taught in school for years. What passes for "history" in school is an indoctrination in political correctness.

Jeremiah's points, no knowledge of history, and the general anti-gun attitude from politicians and educators are all combining to kill off what was a lot of fun in the immediate aftermath of the first End of Trail match back in the 1980s when I first tried CAS.

In 1994 I started my own business and had to sell my 19th Century guns to fund it. When I was again in a financial position to get involved, I found it had turned into IPSC in boots. After watching a match in the early 2000s I decided not to get involved again. It had become kind of silly. Sad really.

Dave

Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: OklaTom on January 23, 2020, 01:43:25 pm
We have priced, ISPC'ed and tuned guns to the point that we discourage young'ns.  Remember 30 years ago: stages shooting from a wagon, stages shooting from a saddle on a barrel, If the Duke would have carried/used/worn it, it is good to go, life size targets.  A lot of fun for F(funny) New Guys.

Now not so much:  need 4 guns (~$2,000), need them tuned (~$1,000), need ~$500 in clothes; then stand upright while shooting at lightning speed at steel targets you could hit by throwing your bullets.

This sounds more like SASS than NCOWS. 4 guns are not required in NCOWS, though if chosen as the class, all four can be used. We do not permit short stroking, so that expensive "tuning" goes away.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Abilene on January 23, 2020, 02:43:13 pm
You can still get started in SASS for about what you could have 20 years ago.  But yes, that is still expensive.  Going "IPSC" with modifications and such is a personal choice, not a requirement.  Fortunately, I can still play their game my way.  The most expensive parts I've had to buy have been a few springs.  Being single, I can spend my money on what I want, but have chosen to spend it on more and different guns.  I'm even getting a little faster, breaking 30 seconds regularly  :) .  I still enjoy watching the fast guys, they have fun with their short-stroked Rugers and gamy-looking leather.  The nit-picking-details of the ever-growing rulebook can get a little tedious, but it tends not to bother me since I don't push the envelope.  Anyway, that's SASS.  Lowered participation in NCOWS and SASS I think are both due to the primary audience, us, getting old.  Other reasons, sure, but growing up with westerns really ingrained it into our psyche.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Cliff Fendley on January 23, 2020, 03:00:08 pm
We have priced, ISPC'ed and tuned guns to the point that we discourage young'ns.  Remember 30 years ago: stages shooting from a wagon, stages shooting from a saddle on a barrel, If the Duke would have carried/used/worn it, it is good to go, life size targets.  A lot of fun for F(funny) New Guys.

Now not so much:  need 4 guns (~$2,000), need them tuned (~$1,000), need ~$500 in clothes; then stand upright while shooting at lightning speed at steel targets you could hit by throwing your bullets.

As OK Tom mentioned, you are not describing NCOWS at all which I feel needs to be mentioned again since we are on the NCOWS page and I don't want people to be discouraged by your post.

Maybe half of our shooters shoot more than two guns, none of the short stroke race tuning is allowed, you can get into a basic outfit for really no more than a person would pay for a set of modern everyday clothes.

However I do agree this is the perception many get which may discourage a lot of potential new members which once again I would stress this is not required to play the game and have fun. In fact the ones having the most fun are probably the ones not playing the race game.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Jeremiah Jones on January 24, 2020, 04:01:45 am
Regarding my earlier comments.  I did misstate the number of guns required for NCOWS. I stand by my comments regarding ?Tuning?.  This is philosophical, but to me, tuning is more than short stroke kits.  If you disassemble a gun that works fine to replace springs, hone any hint of a burr, hone the chambers of a shotgun to make shucking shells easier, etc. you are tuning.  There is nothing wrong with this, I have tuned my guns.  But it is another step between a FNG and old hands.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: OklaTom on January 24, 2020, 07:36:19 am
Regarding my earlier comments.  I did misstate the number of guns required for NCOWS. I stand by my comments regarding ?Tuning?.  This is philosophical, but to me, tuning is more than short stroke kits.  If you disassemble a gun that works fine to replace springs, hone any hint of a burr, hone the chambers of a shotgun to make shucking shells easier, etc. you are tuning.  There is nothing wrong with this, I have tuned my guns.  But it is another step between a FNG and old hands.

Point taken. However, the cost of this type of tuning won?t approach that $1000, unless one takes their firearms to the wrong person to do the work. If one can do this for themself, cost is around $30 to $50 per gun, which includes some extra for the cost of stones. If one does not have the know how to do it, then my advice is to check out pricing and reputation carefully from several places before spending the money. Sometimes, it will cost more because you?re buying a name. The new person should comparison shop. A good example is a Pietta made revolver needs no tuning out of the box, and is usually a few dollars less than a Uberti made revolver. Buying a rifle or, if you want to go 4-gun, a shotgun, the same comparison shopping needs to be done.

All that being said, NCOWS matches tend to be less of a race anyway, by virtue of their rules against any modifications beyond springs and some polishing.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Books OToole on January 24, 2020, 09:59:08 am
It is not cheap.  However other than ammo, the stuff lasts forever.

I created a 1890 Gambler character for last years National Match.

Hat
  borrowed
Shirt
  Made by my wife in 2005
Tie
  River Junction Trading Co. $ 15
Vest
  Second hand  $ 20
Coat
   Thrift store $ 5 (modified by me)
Pants
   Hamilton Dry Goods  $ 20
Boots
   Thrift store  $ 20
Original Smith & Wesson DA .38
   Gun Show $ 250
Dave Scot Shoulder Holster - $ 75
Uberti 1866 Winchester - $ 900

I believe that the total comes to $ 1305.  Pro-rated over 10; its not that expensive.

Books
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Cliff Fendley on January 24, 2020, 10:16:43 am
Regarding my earlier comments.  I did misstate the number of guns required for NCOWS. I stand by my comments regarding ?Tuning?.  This is philosophical, but to me, tuning is more than short stroke kits.  If you disassemble a gun that works fine to replace springs, hone any hint of a burr, hone the chambers of a shotgun to make shucking shells easier, etc. you are tuning.  There is nothing wrong with this, I have tuned my guns.  But it is another step between a FNG and old hands.

When I first started shooting NCOWS I ran an out of the box Cimarron 1873 and a Uberti cattleman I picked up at my local gun shop for a good price because they couldn't find any other buyer for the 44-40. I ran those two guns bone stock for two years and even came 4th one year in the open working cowboy class back then. That is saying a lot considering I'm slow as molasses on a cold winter day and no amount of action work will ever make me fast.

My point is that proves you don't need to do that action work you mention and now that I do action work to all of my guns I spend a total of about 30 dollars per gun and know quite a few gun plumbers that will do pretty much the same thing parts and all for 100 bucks. Far from the 1000 you mention and as I said above it's not necessary. Sure they may feel better and more importantly it's better for the gun but you mislead people saying they are going to have to spend that kind of money getting into the game.

I also started with an outfit from Hamilton Dry goods for 69 dollars which they still offer, put on a pair of my round toe work boots and reshaped an old hat. Good to go with my outfit for 69 dollars. I'm a long time leatherworker so obviously built my own gun rig but you can get into a custom holster and belt pretty reasonable depending on what a person wants, there are several makers that are NCOWS members that will help a fella out.

So yes I don't deny it's still an investment buying a couple guns and some accessories but please don't discourage potential new members by making it sound like they will have to take out a second mortgage to come out and have fun.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Dave T on January 24, 2020, 11:44:51 am
Some of the comments, my own included, that seem more directed toward SASS are in my opinion still relevant. Where do most of the NCOWS shooters come from but SASS clubs. If SASS folds its tent and goes home how long, as a stand alone entity, will NCOWS last?

I didn't hear about NCOWS until about a year after I had to give up CAS when I started my own business. Had I know about it I think I would have joined you guys and tried to find another way to finance my business other than selling my 19th Century firearms. I would probably have been the only NCOWS member in AZ at the time but I would have signed up because I have been a Western history student my entire adult life and then some.

The point about the younger generations not being taught history is, I wonder how many serious students of the settling of the West are out there among the 30 and under crowd. Apparently not many given the trends we are discussing.

YMMV,
Dave
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: OklaTom on January 24, 2020, 12:28:56 pm
Some of the comments, my own included, that seem more directed toward SASS are in my opinion still relevant. Where do most of the NCOWS shooters come from but SASS clubs. If SASS folds its tent and goes home how long, as a stand alone entity, will NCOWS last?

True, many of our members are people that leave SASS for something a bit more historical, without the arms race. But many more have never been associated with SASS. NCOWS has been a stand alone organization since it was founded in 1994. Rules have evolved some over time, but one thing has been constant - so called race guns are not permitted. Yes, you can, if you like, slick the action up a bit. Even change out the springs for lighter weight. But that is about it. Enough has been said about the outfit and how inexpensive it can be. But, should SASS fold its tent (an unlikely situations, since speed shooting draws a lot of people to it, be it Western, 3-Gun, IPSC, or any of the other tacticool styles), NCOWS will still be there, as long as there are folks interested in the historical aspect.

Back to the purpose of this thread, we do need to get more young people interested and participating. The general membership is aging. Without new, younger people coming in, NCOWS would head the way of the dinosaur as we get old and begin to reach end of life. But the same could be said about SASS - its membership is also aging. It has a larger base of members than NCOWS, and as I mentioned, the highly competitive speed shooting has its draw for certain people. Having served for years as the National Secretary for NCOWS, I am quite familiar with the demographics of new members. Many join for the magazine (it is much nicer than a newsletter). Many join just because they agree with our principles. Many never even join a shooting posse. And many come in as seniors (over 60) as a new hobby. Then again, many younger people join, even with their families. Lately, I have processed new memberships for grandchildren of long term members. I think we will hang in there.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: River City John on January 24, 2020, 12:35:05 pm
One thing to point out as mentioned, copious amounts of "field-tested" gear, clothing and firearms are readily available because individuals are always upgrading, recycling due to weight change, or just thinning out their closet or gun safe.
Most clubs have regular table sales of member's used stuff, and the prices are at a bargain. 

Add to this, every club would grant generous allowance while a newbie assembles their kit. They'll even loan stuff to get you started.
It's not like we stand back to see if someone new has the strength and endurance, the wherewithal, to scramble up over the rim of the canyon to join us. Hell, we're reaching a helping hand over the edge or throwing down ropes to help you make it. We all want new converts to the sport.


RCJ
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Johnny McCrae on January 25, 2020, 09:09:46 am
Quote
All that being said, NCOWS matches tend to be less of a race anyway, by virtue of their rules against any modifications beyond springs and some polishing.
This may a bit off topic but I'd to add this to Oklahoma Tom's fine comments. At the 2016 NCOWS Midwest Regionals Red Lodge Rambler shot one 1858 Remington Revolver in a two pistol class and loaded an extra cylinder on the clock. Beartooth Billy shot a clean match using four Firearms that were all over one hundred years old. Those Gentlemen were fun to watch.

For my Grandson who has shot NCOWS and SASS matches with me, I bought him a pair of $10.00 black jeans from Walmart. I removed one of the back pockets and belt loops then installed suspender buttons.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Coffinmaker on January 26, 2020, 04:51:46 pm

First a CAVEAT:  I'm not an NCOWS member.  I have however, been playing in the SASS game for well over 20 years and was, for most of 20 years a CAS Gunsmith (I retired).  I have always felt the technology race was somehow "wrong" even though I made a pile of money doing it.  SO:

The CAS games are suffering the same fate.  The days of Saturday matinees, Saturday morning reruns of old Westerns and Prime Time TV Western programs are long gone.  Those of us who grew up playing Cowboys and Indians throughout the neighborhood are now ..... some older.  We're just getting too old to play.  The young today are growing up on electronic screen games and Virtual Reality games.  No interest in what we do.

Because of the above, the CAS games we play, both SASS and NCOWS are slowly dying.  Kicking, screaming and clawing off the cliff, but dying none the less.  Not enough infusion of young folks that wish to do what we do.  It's an inexorable failing, something like the demise of the Glaciers.  And it's a crying shame.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: SgtRickHenry on January 27, 2020, 10:05:36 pm
 No Sir, it won?t ever be over! As long as we keep showing up and shooting matches, it will keep going. As long as there is one father, or one grandfather, bringing his kid to the matches and teaching her or him to shoot, it will not be over.  I know this because that?s me doing just that.

With all due respect, we must not let ourselves get discouraged when participation seems to slow down. We need to have faith and each of do our best to keep it going. Maybe we will have a small turnout sometimes, but at other times we will have more attendees. The idea is that if you believe in this and if you enjoy it then let?s keep working at it, and at recruiting new members.

Frankly, I have personally enjoyed more quality family time at our matches and other NCOWS events than nearly anything else we do, and my kids feel likewise. Please consider coming to a match and please consider joining NCOWS. You don?t have to shoot fast to have fun shooting, but if you like to shoot fast, some our folks will happily give you a run for your money.

As always, I remain,

Yr. obt. svt.,

Sgt. Henry, Marshal
SC Old West Shootists
(An NCOWS posse)
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: 1961MJS on March 30, 2020, 02:56:20 pm
Hi,

I shoot at both Oklahoma City Gun Club and Tri-City Gun Club.  Many of the youngin's are shooting a similar course of fire to SASS, but using Glocks and pistol caliber carbines of some sort.  I'm also amazed at the number of shooters in High Power.  I never got into it because the (then) closest high power range was 2 hours away. 

Just another $0.02.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: Major 2 on March 30, 2020, 04:51:37 pm
never to old or to infirmed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB7iz1HTh9U

Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: ira scott on March 31, 2020, 08:11:45 pm
I hope there wasn't anything downrange for a long ways. Looked pretty irresponsible to me to not have someone competent spotting Grandma. I am glad they got her involved, but you have to be safe.

My .02,  Mike
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: medic15al on May 29, 2020, 06:36:38 pm
There is an NCOWS posse near me, but my problem is expense of clothing, leather, and long guns.

I really want to join. Clothing for me may be difficult due to size and I am retired medically so pension is..... weak.

I have the handguns, and reloading set up and have been eyeing this for a bit.
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: River City John on May 29, 2020, 06:43:35 pm
If size you mean 2XL shirts, vests and pants in 42+", let me know. I'll donate some quality "field-tested" duds.

RCJ
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: medic15al on May 29, 2020, 06:47:42 pm
I appreciate it River City John!

But I'm meaning 4 or 5x depending on maker..... :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

Hey...2 years ago I wore 8x.... :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
Title: Re: We need new blood to keep NCOWS going
Post by: River City John on May 29, 2020, 07:13:40 pm
Good for you, medic15al!

Like many, my closet is a testimonial to weight fluctuation. I likely have 3XL in shirts and vests, and up to 50"-52" in pants. Offer still stands seeing as you are slimming down. Maybe we'll meet somewhere in the middle soon . . .
So let me know.

Are you handy with needle and thread? I may still have the odd pattern good for all sizes, and some bolts of fabric I'll never get to. Plus, if you check out the second-hand clothing shops, there are lots of clothing begging alterations that will be good for period look.
There have been several articles in The Shootist about altering modern clothing to look period. I don't have them bookmarked, but one was making a sack coat.

Here's Marlan Ingram's excellent article on creating the look.
http://ncows.com/library/pdf/CreatingTheOutfit.pdf

Our Secretary, I believe, was working with someone who was putting all past articles, with index, in The Shootist online for reference. Perhaps someone can chime in on whether this has been done.

RCJ