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CAS TOPICS => Gunsmithing => Topic started by: Doug.38PR on April 13, 2019, 11:58:32 pm

Title: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Doug.38PR on April 13, 2019, 11:58:32 pm
I am trying to fit a new cylinder stop/bolt.

Forgive me if I misuse terms.  I am using a dremel with sandpaperroll very easy and very slowly, to round/smooth the underside of the right hook that it completely clears the swivel bump that it rides on and is released from when the hammer drops so that it can fully reset.   

I am also carefully trying to round the bolt?s sharp edges to match the old broken one using my caliper as a go by until there is non play or movement in the cylinder notches. 

I am being extremely slow and careful.  (Meaning every slight touch I make I follow with reassembling the innards of the gun and seeing how they cycle)

Am I doing this correctly?
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Coffinmaker on April 14, 2019, 11:00:07 am

No.
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: 45 Dragoon on April 14, 2019, 11:27:29 am
    What Coffinmaker said!

  That is called the bolt pickup surface. It's where the hammer cam (not swivel) resides when the hammer is at rest. When the hammer is cycled, the cam forces the left (not right) arm ( some call it a leg or tine) to move up which lowers the bolt head. Too much clearance at that surface can allow the cylinder to remain locked as the hand tries to rotate the cyl. ( this is more true for single fingered hands, two fingered hand actions are more forgiving).

  Also, I wouldn't "round" sharp edges to match the old, broken, worn out bolt. You'll likely end up with a brand new, worn out bolt.  The bolt head sides need to remain parallel , the tall side edge (leading edge) can be broken (just to keep from scraping the cyl.) and the short side (trailing edge) can be broken as well.

  Bolt timing can be done after checking that full cock and cyl. lockup happen simultaneously. This is a function of hand length. If it was correct before, then it's ok but if it needs correcting,  now is the time to fix it. Otherwise, you'll have an out of time S.A. with a new bolt.

   This is just very basic setup notes and as "simple" as S.A.'s are, there is quite a lot to setting one up correctly. Correctly can lead to a lifetime of service. Getting one to "function" will eventually need it again.
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Doug.38PR on April 14, 2019, 01:25:31 pm
    What Coffinmaker said!

  That is called the bolt pickup surface. It's where the hammer cam (not swivel) resides when the hammer is at rest. When the hammer is cycled, the cam forces the left (not right) arm ( some call it a leg or tine) to move up which lowers the bolt head. Too much clearance at that surface can allow the cylinder to remain locked as the hand tries to rotate the cyl. ( this is more true for single fingered hands, two fingered hand actions are more forgiving).

  Also, I wouldn't "round" sharp edges to match the old, broken, worn out bolt. You'll likely end up with a brand new, worn out bolt.  The bolt head sides need to remain parallel , the tall side edge (leading edge) can be broken (just to keep from scraping the cyl.) and the short side (trailing edge) can be broken as well.

  Bolt timing can be done after checking that full cock and cyl. lockup happen simultaneously. This is a function of hand length. If it was correct before, then it's ok but if it needs correcting,  now is the time to fix it. Otherwise, you'll have an out of time S.A. with a new bolt.

   This is just very basic setup notes and as "simple" as S.A.'s are, there is quite a lot to setting one up correctly. Correctly can lead to a lifetime of service. Getting one to "function" will eventually need it again.

Ok. I?ll stop for now before I ruin the bolt.

The bolt head on the old one is fine.  It didn?t wear out.  It was the arms that broke.  That?s why I was using the bolt as a go by.

But anyway, when I work the action with the new bolt as it is now, when tge hammer is let back down, the arm doesn?t quite clear the cam and this it cannot lift and lower the bolt when you try to cock it again.  If the hammer drops, the vibration usually causes it to snap back into place clearing the cam, but that is obviously not correct.  I thought l, apparently wrong, that the underside of the arm needed to be taken down or polished a little but not so much that it causes the bolt to not lower before rotation begins.
The hand/paw is fine.  It is still timed with the gun.  It is the new cylinder stop that is the problem.

Sounds like I may need to get Jerry K?s Colt Single Action Revolvers shop manual
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Coffinmaker on April 14, 2019, 02:30:53 pm

Sounds like I may need to get Jerry K?s Colt Single Action Revolvers shop manual

May?? 

YES
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Crow Choker on April 14, 2019, 04:55:47 pm
What Dragoon and Coffin said!!! Get a JK book and put down the Dremel Tool. For what you need to do with fitting the bolt needs to be done with files and/or stones and/or various grits of paper. Dremel's have their place, not in fitting your bolt. A lot can be done with nothing but a file, using various grades if you have them and/or how much pressure you put on the metal when filing. Stones and abrasive paper for touch up when/where needed. Dremel's can take to much off when not needed, learned that 45 years ago with my first one and have seen and heard a lot done by others.
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: 45 Dragoon on April 14, 2019, 04:56:24 pm
^^^ this fer sure!

Mike
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Doug.38PR on April 14, 2019, 06:03:34 pm
I just ordered the book.

 An SCV reenactor i know told me to use a dremel.  I tried using a basic file 15 year ago the first time and felt like I was using a hammer to drive a screw into a pair of glasses.  Ended up just making a mess.  The dremel with a light sandpaper roll felt very gentle and could carefully be done.
So what kind of stones do I need?  (Something else to go buy)
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Major 2 on April 15, 2019, 12:31:59 pm
"An SCV reenactor i know told me to use a Dremel"

That's like asking a proctologist to pratice brain surgury ...just the WRONG tools.

The cloest a Dremel should get to a gun, is the next county away !

CERAMIC STONE FILE SETS @  https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/stones/gunsmith-s-premium-ceramic-stone-file-set-prod797.aspx

Or you can find a Ceramic stone set at Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Ceramic-File-Set-Pouch/dp/B0002IXQLK/ref=sr_1_2?hvadid=3527312888&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=c&hvqmt=p&keywords=gunsmith+stones&qid=1555349381&s=gateway&sr=8-2




Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Bibbyman on April 15, 2019, 02:34:00 pm
I've fitted a couple over the years.  I can't remember doing more than a little honing.  Hone a little .  Check. Hone a little more.  Check.  It would be real easy to take off too much and there is no reasonable way to put it back on.

Here is another training source.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1014212675/american-gunsmithing-institute-agi-technical-manual-and-armorers-course-video-colt-single-action-revolvers-dvd

Rather pricey.   Maybe one on eBay?

The only way I can see a Dremel tool could be used is with a polishing wheel.  Even then it's better to use stones to keep surfaces flat.
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Doug.38PR on April 15, 2019, 05:41:25 pm
"An SCV reenactor i know told me to use a Dremel"

That's like asking a proctologist to pratice brain surgury ...just the WRONG tools.

The cloest a Dremel should get to a gun, is the next county away !

CERAMIC STONE FILE SETS @  https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/stones/gunsmith-s-premium-ceramic-stone-file-set-prod797.aspx

Or you can find a Ceramic stone set at Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Ceramic-File-Set-Pouch/dp/B0002IXQLK/ref=sr_1_2?hvadid=3527312888&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=c&hvqmt=p&keywords=gunsmith+stones&qid=1555349381&s=gateway&sr=8-2

Just ordered a $20 triangular stone.  Thank you.  I can't see any reason I shouldn't be able to figure this out.  I get tired of having to send guns to a gunsmith halfway across the planet or take it to town to a local smith for 2 months.
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Doug.38PR on April 15, 2019, 05:42:49 pm
I've fitted a couple over the years.  I can't remember doing more than a little honing.  Hone a little .  Check. Hone a little more.  Check.  It would be real easy to take off too much and there is no reasonable way to put it back on.

Here is another training source.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1014212675/american-gunsmithing-institute-agi-technical-manual-and-armorers-course-video-colt-single-action-revolvers-dvd

Rather pricey.   Maybe one on eBay?

The only way I can see a Dremel tool could be used is with a polishing wheel.  Even then it's better to use stones to keep surfaces flat.

I do have a polishing wheel with it.  I want to do this myself without sending it to gunsmiths.  This old single action pistols have parts that break all the time.  While some are drop in, other's like the bolt require more attention.
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Coffinmaker on April 15, 2019, 08:28:25 pm

Well Doug ...... Let me be Frank.

Some of us went to school.  Then we spent several YEARS learning how to do what we do.  We also spent several THOUSANDS of dollars on dedicated tools.  Also to learn which tool work for the types of work that we do.

You then expect us to impart all those years of knowledge, experience and SKILLS to you in just a few paragraphs ??  Really ??
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: 45 Dragoon on April 15, 2019, 08:38:44 pm
   Well Doug, your the one asking "how to"  and the ones that do the "how to" probably wouldn't mind helping so much if you didn't feel the need to express how "simple" the action is and that you should be able to figure it out (as I said, you're the one asking .  .  .  .   it's a thinker )!!  I can understand wanting to "know how"  but your "bedside manner" is  well .  .  .  . 
  The only "drop in" parts are the hammer and trigger, everything else is "slave" to the "program" those two parts present. As far as parts that " break all the time" , there are "things" one can do to those parts to keep them from breaking. Not to mention, spring tension is paramount to parts life and how to dress those. Polishing surfaces is fine but knowing "how" without rounding over critical edges that "un-do" everything you wanted "to do" is counter productive.  Dressing the bolt head to track into the locking notch is important for preventing cylinder throw-by as is bolt head configuration. The shape of the hand (and length of) is important (and the difference between a 6 shot and 5 shot cyl setup!). Is that hammer cam OK? Is it too tall? Is the bolt arm sliding off the side of the cam? (Is it supposed to?) Does it need thinning? Why?   How do you keep it from breaking? 
   I say all this just to say as simple as 4 parts and some springs can seem .  .  .  .  it ain't really .  .  .  . it mostly depends on what you want to end up with!

  As a caveat, I was taught NOT to use stones. Learn to use files and then a dremel .  .  . 

Mike

Hmmmm .  .  .  .  is there an echo?! Lol!!!!  (Ya beat me Mr. Coffin !)
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Doug.38PR on April 15, 2019, 11:24:50 pm
Well Doug ...... Let me be Frank.

Some of us went to school.  Then we spent several YEARS learning how to do what we do.  We also spent several THOUSANDS of dollars on dedicated tools.  Also to learn which tool work for the types of work that we do.

You then expect us to impart all those years of knowledge, experience and SKILLS to you in just a few paragraphs ??  Really ??

I?m not expecting nor planning to be told how to make a Python.  I?m just looking to do fixes on relatively fundamental things.

What is the purpose of this forum room than to seek help solving problems?

I?m not meaning to offend or belittle.  I guess what I?m trying to say is:   I don?t mind paying a mechanic to change my oil or tire (things that frequently have have to be done) , but if I have to send my car off and wait six months...I?d rather just do it myself. (Which you can do if you have the fundamentals)
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Doug.38PR on April 15, 2019, 11:47:52 pm
   Well Doug, your the one asking "how to"  and the ones that do the "how to" probably wouldn't mind helping so much if you didn't feel the need to express how "simple" the action is and that you should be able to figure it out (as I said, you're the one asking .  .  .  .   it's a thinker )!!  I can understand wanting to "know how"  but your "bedside manner" is  well .  .  .  . 
  The only "drop in" parts are the hammer and trigger, everything else is "slave" to the "program" those two parts present. As far as parts that " break all the time" , there are "things" one can do to those parts to keep them from breaking. Not to mention, spring tension is paramount to parts life and how to dress those. Polishing surfaces is fine but knowing "how" without rounding over critical edges that "un-do" everything you wanted "to do" is counter productive.  Dressing the bolt head to track into the locking notch is important for preventing cylinder throw-by as is bolt head configuration. The shape of the hand (and length of) is important (and the difference between a 6 shot and 5 shot cyl setup!). Is that hammer cam OK? Is it too tall? Is the bolt arm sliding off the side of the cam? (Is it supposed to?) Does it need thinning? Why?   How do you keep it from breaking? 
   I say all this just to say as simple as 4 parts and some springs can seem .  .  .  .  it ain't really .  .  .  . it mostly depends on what you want to end up with!

  As a caveat, I was taught NOT to use stones. Learn to use files and then a dremel .  .  . 

Mike

Hmmmm .  .  .  .  is there an echo?! Lol!!!!  (Ya beat me Mr. Coffin !)


I am not intending to offend or belittle y?all?s work or skills (if that were the case, I wouldn?t be here)

This would be about the third or fourth bolt I?ve had in the gun for 18 years.  I?ve been told the bolt (the arms) just break relatively quick (like the hand spring or the bolt spring or even the main spring). I had a smith in Houston touch up the action and give it a good cleaning about 12 years ago.

Either I?ve been taking it to bad gunsmiths in the Houston area over the years that don?t know what they are doing or talking about regarding SA revolvers (and I won?t say that?s not possible) or the above statement is true.

I enjoy shooting, reloading and even tinkering with my guns.  When something breaks, I get damn tired of having to run out, spend time finding a gunsmith or sending it half the planet away just to fix a little_________ and have the gun gone for six months.

Bolt springs, main springs and hand springs on SA and DA colt type guns are relatively simple to deal with and require little, if any, modification.  I?ve successfully dealt with all for years. 

If fitting a bolt/cylinder stop is something relatively simple (compared to, say, a SW DA or, God forbid, a Colt DA) that a man can do at home on his own time, with a little patience, I?d rather learn how.   

Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Major 2 on April 16, 2019, 06:12:27 am

  GUN on the work bench ....
 A DREMEL TOOL on your work bench?  Your gun ? any gun ?

Farewell and adieu to you, fair Spanish ladies. Farewell and adieu, you ladies of Spain. For we've received orders for to sail back to Boston. And so nevermore shall we see you again.

with do homage to Capt. Quint  "Jaws" 1975
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Coffinmaker on April 16, 2019, 10:53:29 am

"The Open Range" has been a "Read Only" site for several years.  On the site resides a tutorial by Larsen E. Pettifogger for the set up of "Open Top" type guns to include Pietta.

Add that tutorial to your new Kuhnhausen book.  Read both.  ALOT!!
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: RRio on April 16, 2019, 02:56:20 pm
"The Open Range" has been a "Read Only" site for several years.  On the site resides a tutorial by Larsen E. Pettifogger for the set up of "Open Top" type guns to include Pietta.

Add that tutorial to your new Kuhnhausen book.  Read both.  ALOT!!
 
Two Thumbs Up ++++++++
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Crow Choker on April 16, 2019, 03:06:02 pm
Geez guys, ya could have used a little more friendly talk with the OP . Talk like that drives CAS site members away from the forum. Always found a little 'finesse' goes a long ways. JMO and experience.

 Yep-Pettifogger's info is top shelf. It can also be found on the Darkside site on this forum under the Dark Arts approximately half way down titled "Tuning the Cap and Ball for Competition'. It is Pettifoggers Open Range info posted by Noz.
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Bibbyman on April 16, 2019, 06:47:04 pm
The cylinder bolt looks to be a simple part.  But it interacts with the timing of everything else.  I've spent hours going step by step getting a bolt fitted.  If I had more experience,  this process wouldn't take so long because I could more quickly identify areas that needed adjustment and how much.  Most of the fitting and testing require the gun being assembled and taken apart again.  It's not the kind of project you can walk someone through on a forum.
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Doug.38PR on April 16, 2019, 10:21:36 pm
"The Open Range" has been a "Read Only" site for several years.  On the site resides a tutorial by Larsen E. Pettifogger for the set up of "Open Top" type guns to include Pietta.

Add that tutorial to your new Kuhnhausen book.  Read both.  ALOT!!

Started looking it over earlier.  Very interesting read and just what I need, thank you.
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Doug.38PR on April 16, 2019, 10:31:44 pm
The cylinder bolt looks to be a simple part.  But it interacts with the timing of everything else.  I've spent hours going step by step getting a bolt fitted.  If I had more experience,  this process wouldn't take so long because I could more quickly identify areas that needed adjustment and how much.  Most of the fitting and testing require the gun being assembled and taken apart again.  It's not the kind of project you can walk someone through on a forum.

I know!  You?re sitting there with the grips off, working the action wrapping your mind around everything going on.  It?s not as complicated as a double action Colt, but it is still a bit of concentration and care.
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Cliff Fendley on April 16, 2019, 11:47:46 pm
So many people poo poo on dremels but they certainly have their place. Those that do damage with one just don't know what they are doing or are careless and are probably not using a variable speed with the right attachments.

You can do justs as much damage with the wrong file or stone and a dremel will do in a couple seconds with the right polishing wheel and compound that you can do in several minutes with stones or polishing clothes.

I don't know how many tubs of elbow grease dremels have saved me knifemaking and from that experience of filing and polishing with them yes I don't hesitate to use one on a gun part under the right circumstance.

I have all kinds of special fixtures made for polishing surfaces when knifemaking that work perfect for certain gunsmithing applications.

The trick knifemakers today know but apparently no gunsmiths know is to use foot controlled switches. Never lay the part against or remove the part from a moving wheel or cutting tool, you fixture everything up or have it held snug at the right angle and braced before touching the power and then you touch the power on and off. This way the abrasives only touch at the appropriate angle and the right area of the part. Touch and measure, touch and measure, just like using a file or stone except when using a machine you don't have to take several strokes and then accidently take one mislick messing up the whole few before that.

No different than the equation of which is more accurate, taking a few thousands off of a machined surface using a flat file or a mill or surface grinder? I think we know which is more accurate. Speaking of that, yes I even have surface grinders retrofitted to use grinding wheels and belts.
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: greyhawk on April 17, 2019, 01:27:23 am
So many people poo poo on dremels but they certainly have their place. Those that do damage with one just don't know what they are doing or are careless and are probably not using a variable speed with the right attachments.

You can do justs as much damage with the wrong file or stone and a dremel will do in a couple seconds with the right polishing wheel and compound that you can do in several minutes with stones or polishing clothes.

I don't know how many tubs of elbow grease dremels have saved me knifemaking and from that experience of filing and polishing with them yes I don't hesitate to use one on a gun part under the right circumstance.

I have all kinds of special fixtures made for polishing surfaces when knifemaking that work perfect for certain gunsmithing applications.

The trick knifemakers today know but apparently no gunsmiths know is to use foot controlled switches. Never lay the part against or remove the part from a moving wheel or cutting tool, you fixture everything up or have it held snug at the right angle and braced before touching the power and then you touch the power on and off. This way the abrasives only touch at the appropriate angle and the right area of the part. Touch and measure, touch and measure, just like using a file or stone except when using a machine you don't have to take several strokes and then accidently take one mislick messing up the whole few before that.

No different than the equation of which is more accurate, taking a few thousands off of a machined surface using a flat file or a mill or surface grinder? I think we know which is more accurate. Speaking of that, yes I even have surface grinders retrofitted to use grinding wheels and belts.

Cliff
You got my attention 
(I use a Dremel a lot - just try to not admit it in the presence of Coffin Maker type people) 
How do I set up the foot control - bearing in mind I am cheep and would envisage using something like a cast off sewing machine controller - do we vary the feed in power and the Dremel takes that allright? I agree that most of the damage seems to occur approaching and leaving the work and as well we (or I do) tend to run the machine too slow a lot of the time because of the delay time in switching on and off. Have been using the cable drive extension shaft on mine recently - shoulda done a lot more of that too .
cheers
Greyhawk
 
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Major 2 on April 17, 2019, 05:20:39 am
So many people poo poo on dremels but they certainly have their place. Those that do damage with one just don't know what they are doing or are careless and are probably not using a variable speed with the right attachments.  Precisely why THOSE that don't know should avoid them....

You can do justs as much damage with the wrong file or stone and a dremel will do in a couple seconds with the right polishing wheel and compound that you can do in several minutes with stones or polishing clothes.
Exactly, THOSE that don't know can screw up FASTER


I don't know how many tubs of elbow grease dremels have saved me knifemaking and from that experience of filing and polishing with them yes I don't hesitate to use one on a gun part under the right circumstance.
Correct, I have Dremels , have used them for 50 years, with an entire Dremel attachment cabinet of all kinds of special fixtures made for polishing, cutting , milling , sanding , grinding ETC  and a foot peddle 

I have all kinds of special fixtures made for polishing surfaces when knifemaking that work perfect for certain gunsmithing applications.

The trick knifemakers today know but apparently no gunsmiths know is to use foot controlled switches. Never lay the part against or remove the part from a moving wheel or cutting tool, you fixture everything up or have it held snug at the right angle and braced before touching the power and then you touch the power on and off. This way the abrasives only touch at the appropriate angle and the right area of the part. Touch and measure, touch and measure, just like using a file or stone except when using a machine you don't have to take several strokes and then accidently take one mislick messing up the whole few before that.
No question you Sir are fine knifemaker, not to mention leather artisan , and perhaps accomplished Gun mechanic, something the OP may not be    

No different than the equation of which is more accurate, taking a few thousands off of a machined surface using a flat file or a mill or surface grinder? I think we know which is more accurate. Speaking of that, yes I even have surface grinders retrofitted to use grinding wheels and belts.

HENCE ...my warning , not poo pooing Dremel tools ! , rather Suggesting it is the FASTER way to screw up.
Not the fastest, that is reserved for the thought that " those who don't know what they are doing and proceed to use the Dremel anyway....


Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: greyhawk on April 17, 2019, 08:27:08 am
HENCE ...my warning , not poo pooing Dremel tools ! , rather Suggesting it is the FASTER way to screw up.
Not the fastest, that is reserved for the thought that " those who don't know what they are doing and proceed to use the Dremel anyway....

Major
I'll go along with all of that ......trying to put metal back on where ya shouldna took it off from (with a Dremel, file or whatever else) ... is a huge problem .

Just in from my workshop - finished (I think) a major rebuild on a little Erma Wagonmaster 22- came recently from my Dad (who is almost 95 and starting to fail)  he assured me it worked ok --- cleaned and oiled and it was lookin a bit wonky - first test fire it functioned ok but didnt feel solid and wasnt feeding from the magazine - three days ago I took it out for another go and she spat one in my face - rim split - smoke out the top of the action - guess who didnt have his earmuffs on?

ok so fix it or trash it !!!!!! Pa has had this apart recently and lost the little spring and plunger that holds the cartridge elevator in place - that was the feed problem fixed - the back end of this gun was just wore out - and not locking up properly - I decided to rebuild it by boring out the locking bolt pin holes and bushing them in the alloy frame ane also bush the hole in the bolt - I set the bolt up in the mill and proceeded to enlarge the pin hole with an 8 mm end mill - it cut like butter till I got about two thirds the way through then all progress halted - I pulled the end mill out of the collet and it was blunt as .... serves me right for buying those cheap Chinese tools I thought!   I ground the cutter back sharp with a little grinding wheel on my dremel and give it another go - same again it burred the tool blunt - and look down the hole and theres that shiny finish on the steel and you know this aint going well at all - the only way I could get that done and salvage the part was to use a chain saw grinding stone on my Dremel and grind the hard patch out of that hole - I must have hit a little patch of something really hard cuz it was cutting really nice, I had coolant on, didnt change the feed pressure, it just stopped cutting all at once - the piece I was working is decent steel but it cuts fine with a good file.
When I bushed the locking bolt pin I offset it to move the  locking bolt forward in the action to take the slack out of it all - then had to slowly fit the locking bolt into its notch in the main bolt - maybe twenty times I had this gun apart over the whole refinish and ifn ya not prepared to do that however many times it takes - then give the thing to someone else to fix !!!!!
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Coffinmaker on April 17, 2019, 09:57:02 am

Well ..... Hi Cliff,

I wish that you should go back and re-read your first paragraph.  Then, you may be able to imagine what came walking through my door.  At least once a day.  For years.

You might also want to take a quick gander at your 5th Paragraph.  I personally can't believe just how full yourself and how full of crap you are.

Do be so kind as to have a nice day.  Or not.
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Cliff Fendley on April 17, 2019, 10:23:19 pm
Well ..... Hi Cliff,

I wish that you should go back and re-read your first paragraph.  Then, you may be able to imagine what came walking through my door.  At least once a day.  For years.

You might also want to take a quick gander at your 5th Paragraph.  I personally can't believe just how full yourself and how full of crap you are.

Do be so kind as to have a nice day.  Or not.

Oh, sorry to have struck such a nerve. LOL

I was merely pointing out how, ALMOST, every gunsmith poo poos use of dremels (I hear the internet jargon all the time) from even being in their shop and never heard of one using cutoff switches that every knifemaker or jeweler I know automatically uses. Since I know literally hundreds of custom knifemakers and many jewelers and a good number of gunsmiths and been in literally dozens of shops and seen their equipment and speak from experience if that makes me full of crap then so be it. Not sure how you took such offense to that since it seems to be fact. The fact you got such offended makes me realize you never used remote switches or have polishing machines set up that way so there is more evidence of proof.

And I was not putting you are any gunsmith down for doing things the old fashion way, I was just pointing out that in other sectors just as accurate grinding and polishing is done on parts using machines and was pointing out the safe accurate way they are applied. Sorry you took such offense to facts.

Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Cliff Fendley on April 17, 2019, 10:28:28 pm
HENCE ...my warning , not poo pooing Dremel tools ! , rather Suggesting it is the FASTER way to screw up.
Not the fastest, that is reserved for the thought that " those who don't know what they are doing and proceed to use the Dremel anyway....

No machines can be a quicker way of screwing up something or a more accurate way of doing certain operations. Which is determined by the user and where and what tool is used for various operations.

Would I use a dremel for fitting a bolt as in the OP? No, but they do have their place.
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Cliff Fendley on April 17, 2019, 11:05:26 pm
Cliff
You got my attention 
(I use a Dremel a lot - just try to not admit it in the presence of Coffin Maker type people) 
How do I set up the foot control - bearing in mind I am cheep and would envisage using something like a cast off sewing machine controller - do we vary the feed in power and the Dremel takes that allright? I agree that most of the damage seems to occur approaching and leaving the work and as well we (or I do) tend to run the machine too slow a lot of the time because of the delay time in switching on and off. Have been using the cable drive extension shaft on mine recently - shoulda done a lot more of that too .
cheers
Greyhawk

They sell the foot switch with the cord just for that. You just plug it in and plug the machine into it like plugging christmas lights or the same way the float switch works on submersible pumps. I have never used a rheostat one or if they even make them, I always have the speed of the machine set and bump the pedal. It just disconnects one leg same as flipping the on off switch on the machine or a wall switch. My brother even uses one when grinding and stuffing sausage on the grinder to make it a one man operation and not touching switches with your hands.

Knifemaking and jeweler supply places carry them or you can even pick up a cheapy at Harbor Freight.
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: greyhawk on April 18, 2019, 09:28:01 am
They sell the foot switch with the cord just for that. You just plug it in and plug the machine into it like plugging christmas lights or the same way the float switch works on submersible pumps. I have never used a rheostat one or if they even make them, I always have the speed of the machine set and bump the pedal. It just disconnects one leg same as flipping the on off switch on the machine or a wall switch. My brother even uses one when grinding and stuffing sausage on the grinder to make it a one man operation and not touching switches with your hands.

Knifemaking and jeweler supply places carry them or you can even pick up a cheapy at Harbor Freight.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Coffinmaker on April 18, 2019, 05:42:43 pm

Well heck.  Ignorance is certainly bliss.  It would appear there is a certain misunderstanding of "Facts" and "Proof."  Alternative facts and alternative proof are of no benefit to anyone.

Every Gunsmith I have ever known has a Dremel.  Most use a remote head and foot switch.  WE don't Poo Poo Dremel tools.  We Poo Poo the amateurs whom use them without any knowledge of what to grind on where.  Or how for that matter.

Machines don't mess things up.  The people who operate the machines with no knowledge or training use machines to screw things up.  Some presumptions presented of Proofs are no more than an expression of stupidity.

So, please be so kind, the next time you jump up on YOUR soapbox, make sure first to peek in and count the machine tools we use.  Perhaps we should count the cost of my Mill agains your entire operation??  The Lathe??  4 different stand alone polishing machines.  3 different bench top strip sanders, Blueing and Plating Tanks, oh, and let us not forget the flexi shaft Dremel that I run with a knee switch (foot switch mounted sideways).

Since the entire argument is actually caused by unskilled operators, I would suggest we quit throwing clods at each other and get back to sharing toys and playing nice.  ::)
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Cliff Fendley on April 18, 2019, 07:44:07 pm
Perhaps we should count the cost of my Mill agains your entire operation??  The Lathe??  4 different stand alone polishing machines.  3 different bench top strip sanders, Blueing and Plating Tanks, oh, and let us not forget the flexi shaft Dremel that I run with a knee switch (foot switch mounted sideways).


Sure! love seeing other setups and ideas. You want to compare Bridgeports first or just jump right on to the CNC mills?

Honestly my CNC is nothing to brag about, it's an old Lagun that a genius friend of mine rebuilt and updated to more modern software nearly 25 years ago, still run G-Code on everything and some of the programs are still on floppy disc but hey it works and that's what matters. I honestly use my Bridgeport, Jet, or old Deckel pantograph mills mostly for vertical milling. For my limited gunsmithing milling needs the old Atlas horizontal mill usually fits the bill for milling sights, cutting slots etc. I only work on my own guns so my setup is not for guns anyway, I just use what I have that works.

Oh and I agree, you can't have too many belt sanders. This is my main grinding room where most of the dirty work is done consists of five Baders and an old Boyar Schultz I converted to use belts. I don't use stone grinders much, just out in the welding shop for ugly work.
(https://oi45.photobucket.com/albums/f67/30WCF/DSCN1457.jpg) (https://s45.photobucket.com/user/30WCF/media/DSCN1457.jpg.html)

I built this platen attachment for this old Spacesaver. Has a ceramic strip with various rests to hold and clamp things or use freehand.
(https://oi45.photobucket.com/albums/f67/30WCF/DSCN1456.jpg) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/30WCF/media/DSCN1456.jpg.html)

(https://oi45.photobucket.com/albums/f67/30WCF/DSCN1458.jpg) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/30WCF/media/DSCN1458.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
Post by: Crow Choker on April 19, 2019, 10:40:14 pm
Wall !!!!!!!!---I'll come to the defense of some of ya and agree with the posts of others. As  I stated in my first post reference Dremels, "They have their place", ie for doing some tasks. I've used one since around 1972/3-on my second one at present, one of the newer ones with adjustable speed and all kinds of 'do-dads' to make them eiaser to use vs just hanging onto the unit. 'BUT'-they "ain't" the holy grail to being a gunsmith or doing the tasks a gunsmith needs to do, weather a pro, amateur, or whatever. I've read things over the years, mostly hype advertising by Dremel or some outfit 'hawking them' showing some guy with a big smile or concentrated look working over some type of firearm with a caption saying "This could be you". Some guys have the idea that all you need to slick up a firearm or transform a old clunker into a family heirloom with nothing but a Dremel in hand. Like I advised, they have their place for certain functions in working on a firearm, but in the delicate and needed areas where areas need a true flat surface, arc, or whatever, you'll never do it with a hand held electric tool having some grinding, polishing, or any other assesory on it. Doesn't matter if you have  some foot or knee controller. Just won't get a true surface. Needed are files, stones, and/or fine grit cloth. Not stepping on anybody's toes or abilities. I'm not as good of a gunsmith as some, but better than others, just the way it is. Not bragging or applauding about my own talents, have been working on firearms of various kinds for around 50 years (add another 5 to that if you want to include tearing all of my Dad's stuff apart before that to see how they worked). I've seen and read what a Dremel can do to a firearm in the dark realm of "better to be forgotten".  Just saying a Dremel doesn't make you a Ralph Walker any more buying a Fender Stratocaster makes you a Eric Clapton. Been there, done that in both area's.  ;D