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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Winchester Model 1873 => Topic started by: Doug.38PR on February 07, 2019, 10:36:01 AM

Title: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Doug.38PR on February 07, 2019, 10:36:01 AM
The .44-40 and .30 Carbine  are two of the most underrated and even laughed at cartridges.   Yet at one time they were both very popular among firearms users.  With the advent of ARs and Magnum calibers, most peoppe don’t even know these cartridges or the guns that shoot them even exist.

But, taken for what they are, they are actually excellent rounds that are still quite effective.  The .30 Carbine is basically a .357 Magnum shot out of a rifle with a fast 110 gr ball bullet.  More powerful than submachine guns and more compact than a full rifle or even modern AR/M4 carbine

The .44-40 lever action carbine is basically shooting the power of  a .44 Magnum handgun with the accuracy and capacity of a lever action rifle with very little recoil.   Such rounds have put down quite a few deer over the last century and a half.  More than any other game round save the .30-30, so we are told.   

In terms of power, these rounds make noticable dents in plate targets designed to withstand up to .44 Magnum handguns.  The .30 Carbine almost stretches right through.

And the beauty of it is, the recoil on both of these is less than the AR15 out of guns that are far more compact



Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Trailrider on February 07, 2019, 10:14:01 PM
There is no question that the .44-40 can be loaded hotter than most current factory ammo...IF the rifle or pistol is strong enough. The Winchester M1892 and its modern counterparts (Rossi, Miroku) and the Old Model Ruger Vaqueros fall in this category. That is NOT to say it is the equal of the .44 Magnum at the top end.  However, the .44-40 has accounted for a lot of game, and has served as a self-defense round, as well.  As a hunting load, I would restrict both the .44-40 and .44 Magnum to game under 150-200 yds, with proper bullet placement.  For Cowboy Action Shooting, I load both cartridges to 950 ft/sec (NOT the same powder charges!) from a 7-1/2" barrel OM Ruger.  With a 213 gr. lead bullet, the .44 Magnum actually requires LESS powder to reach the same velocities due to the smaller case capacity of the magnum brass! I've seen the Maggie give the coup de gras to a Shiras moose, which had been downed but not out from a .300 Weatherby Magnum rifle!

I would certainly take any of the .44's over the .30 Carbine. Some Korean War veteran Marines I've talked to over the years stated, that while the Carbine could certainly kill, when compared to the .30-06, against winter-clothed enemy, it definitely lacked stopping power! The Marines got rid of the M-1 and M-2 Carbines after Korea due to unreliability in ultra-cold weather. Your mileage may vary, of course.
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Cholla Hill Tirador on February 08, 2019, 09:48:28 AM
The .44-40 and .30 Carbine  are two of the most underrated and even laughed at cartridges.   Yet at one time they were both very popular among firearms users.  With the advent of ARs and Magnum calibers, most peoppe don’t even know these cartridges or the guns that shoot them even exist.

But, taken for what they are, they are actually excellent rounds that are still quite effective.  The .30 Carbine is basically a .357 Magnum shot out of a rifle with a fast 110 gr ball bullet.  More powerful than submachine guns and more compact than a full rifle or even modern AR/M4 carbine

The .44-40 lever action carbine is basically shooting the power of  a .44 Magnum handgun with the accuracy and capacity of a lever action rifle with very little recoil.   Such rounds have put down quite a few deer over the last century and a half.  More than any other game round save the .30-30, so we are told.   

In terms of power, these rounds make noticable dents in plate targets designed to withstand up to .44 Magnum handguns.  The .30 Carbine almost stretches right through.

And the beauty of it is, the recoil on both of these is less than the AR15 out of guns that are far more compact


  Pretty much spot-on. The 30 Carbine and the 32-20 are quite similar when the latter is loaded pst blackpowder ballistics. And yes the 44-40 from a rifle is quite similar to a .44 Magnum from a revolver. Yes, the 44-40 can be loaded to be more powerful, but for most of us there's really no need. Since I switched over a few years ago.to revolvers for hunting, I've found that more power really isn't necessary. In my experience .44 and .45 caliber bullets striking game at 900-950 fps tend to "make the trip" and whistle on across the pasture for parts unknown, so.what's the point in heavier loads?

  Cartridges such as those mentioned never really needed more power, rather they needed better bullets. The pointy bullets originally loaded in the 30 Carbine, 44-40, 45 Colt et al, don't do much in flesh. Bullets with nice wide Flat points do better.

   Elme Keith's SIXGUNS is a great read on this subject as he had vast experience shooting animals with every caliber imaginable

  CHT
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: scrubby2009 on February 08, 2019, 11:35:51 PM
Are we going to discuss the present-day tactical usefulness of the old rounds? Or just as they relate to the overlooked tools originally designed for them? I'd happily trust my '73 in any common game or predators encountered in the Sierras where I live, and for a tactical choice, it seems perfectly fine. 12+1 of 1000 to 1100fps 200gr projectiles that can be dumped in a few seconds, an action/magazine that can be very quickly "topped up" in a prolonged debate, and as it's been pointed out, RNFP bullets (in soft lead) have pretty decent stopping/deforming characteristics. I couldn't speak to any autoloading/detachable mag type weapons or the calibers associated with them.
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: David Battersby on February 09, 2019, 08:38:10 AM
 I shoot a lot of Lever Action Silhouette with a Uberti 1873 in 44WCF.  Using black powder most of the time.  Using standard pressure smokeless and black powder it does quite well.    I was told by a few fellow shooters when I started that the 44WCF was marginal at best and I would never knock down the 200 meter rams.  Hogwash!!
 I do occasionally "ding" a 200 meter ram. Usually if a ram doesn't fall it is because of the hit on the edge of the target with less than half of a bullet. (a rare talent I have developed ::) ) Yes there are times when a good hit on a 200 meter ram fails to knock it over. The same is also true for folks using 35 Remington, 38-55 , 30-30 and yes even 45-70.   So I don't feel under gunned.
 Then there was the day at a big competition when two shooters were dinging 200 meter rams with a 30-30 loaded with heavy bullets and a case full of Varget.  My 44WCF was knocking over those same rams with every hit.  Again, soft lead bullets and Swiss 2F.
 How powerful is the 44WCF (44-40)?   For me impressively powerful.
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Cholla Hill Tirador on February 09, 2019, 10:46:12 AM
I shoot a lot of Lever Action Silhouette with a Uberti 1873 in 44WCF.  Using black powder most of the time.  Using standard pressure smokeless and black powder it does quite well.    I was told by a few fellow shooters when I started that the 44WCF was marginal at best and I would never knock down the 200 meter rams.  Hogwash!!
 I do occasionally "ding" a 200 meter ram. Usually if a ram doesn't fall it is because of the hit on the edge of the target with less than half of a bullet. (a rare talent I have developed ::) ) Yes there are times when a good hit on a 200 meter ram fails to knock it over. The same is also true for folks using 35 Remington, 38-55 , 30-30 and yes even 45-70.   So I don't feel under gunned.
 Then there was the day at a big competition when two shooters were dinging 200 meter rams with a 30-30 loaded with heavy bullets and a case full of Varget.  My 44WCF was knocking over those same rams with every hit.  Again, soft lead bullets and Swiss 2F.
 How powerful is the 44WCF (44-40)?   For me impressively powerful.

   I've never shot steel rams, so much of what I say can be considered....well..."communicating from my rectal orifice".

  David do you know the velocity of your load?

  In my 1866 Sporting Rifle I shoot a compressed charge of Swiss 3Fg under this 220 gr. cast FP-

 (http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/N_O_E__Bullet_Moulds_454-241-RF_PB_AC3_Cust_zpsgz7fcym4.jpg) (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/N_O_E__Bullet_Moulds_454-241-RF_PB_AC3_Cust_zpsgz7fcym4.jpg.html)

  MV is right at 1300 fps. I've shot it out to a little over 300 yds. and was surprised at the accuracy.

  CHT

 
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Coffinmaker on February 09, 2019, 11:39:41 AM


While I don't have photographs or any drawings, I do have an educated opinion. 

Some Lustrum ago when I was still casting bullets AND hunting game ...... I found the perfect (MY Opine) .45 game bullet.  A 265Gr Keith Type Semi Wad Cutter.  I never had anything I hit with it ... get back up.  Ever.  Also superbly accurate.

Since the original Subject line was "How Powerful ... etc" yet began with a declaration rather than actual questions, I can also further Opine ...... at the effective ranges the cartridge (44-40) was designed for .. "ENOUGH"
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Cholla Hill Tirador on February 09, 2019, 12:03:05 PM

While I don't have photographs or any drawings, I do have an educated opinion. 

Some Lustrum ago when I was still casting bullets AND hunting game ...... I found the perfect (MY Opine) .45 game bullet.  A 265Gr Keith Type Semi Wad Cutter.  I never had anything I hit with it ... get back up.  Ever.  Also superbly accurate.

Since the original Subject line was "How Powerful ... etc" yet began with a declaration rather than actual questions, I can also further Opine ...... at the effective ranges the cartridge (44-40) was designed for .. "ENOUGH"

  I completely concur with Coffinmaker and have eaten a few hundred pounds of venison felled by .44 caliber SWC's at relatively sedate velocities. The problem with them in this caliber is it's difficult to make them work in the length-challenged actions of '66's and '73's.

  I've often wondered if large flat nose knock steel over more readily than bullets with the small, almost pointy bullets that were originally loaded in the 44-40.

 CHT
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: David Battersby on February 09, 2019, 01:18:41 PM
   

  David do you know the velocity of your load?

  CHT  Cast in 30-1 alloy my Lyman 427098 copy from Accurate molds is about 215 grains in weight.  #6.5 grains of Swiss 2F launch it right at 1300fps like your load.    The same boolit with NRA 50/50 lube and a hefty charge of Reloader 7 put the muzzle velocity up to 1360fps.  Not a lot of difference.  The Swiss load is more accurate but some times on a humid, misty still day shooting black powder is not a good idea. The smoke just hangs, and hangs, and hangs.......
  You don't need to know anything about the 200 meter steel rams. I was just giving my first hand experience and was relating to other cartridges known to be more powerful .    Hehehe.
  I can only guess that in part the soft bullets have a long dwell time on the target. At the "sedate" velocity they don't disintegrate but expand and drive from stem to stern.   
  On a side note I worked up a load with a card wad filler and 25 grains of Swiss 1.5F . It is not as accurate as the load listed above beyond 100 meters, but.....   When the closest targets (chickens) would stick into the backstop like a tomahawk thrown by the Jolly Green Giant or "fly" over the 40 meter backstop and knock over someone's 50 meter pig .... Well, just maybe I didn't need that much cartridge. Never broke or cratered a chicken, but I got some dirty looks from range officers and target setters. ;D

 

 

 

 
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Bryan Austin on March 25, 2019, 08:36:43 PM
Hello guys!!

The 44-40 is certainly under rated and has been neutered since WWII....and again in the 1960's.

John Kort made a video several years ago of him shooting (scoped) Javlina's at 300 meters, knocking them down every time...using black powder loads and an original style bullet. https://youtu.be/rbxvlQUkQfU (https://youtu.be/rbxvlQUkQfU)

In 1875, Doc Pardee made 20 consecutive shots @ 100 yards inside a 4" circle without wiping between shots....1,300fps advertised.

I replicated that load (scoped) using smokeless powder Reloder 7 with a few different bullets...even the 240gr @ 1,300fps safe for the 73'.

I have tested and shot nearly 3,000 high velocity high pressure loads replicating Winchester's 1903-1946 High Velocity loads that were used in the Winchester 92' @ 1,600fps

I have also tested Swiss FFG black powder loads in original unheadstamped 1880's semi-balloonhead cases and achieved 14,000psi leading me to believe that early cartridges were certainly much more powerful than today's SAAMI MAP loads. Goex FFFG resulted in 12,500psi and those same loads in modern Starline brass only made it to 10,500psi.

I have published my results of 83 different tests (can be downloaded) using a custom 20" MGM barrel and the PressuretraceII strain gauge system. USE AT OWN RISK of course: https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire/pressure-testing (https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire/pressure-testing)

I have tons of information on the "44 Center Fire" web site: https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire (https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire)

If a shooter will learn the history of the 44WCF, it's capabilities and limitations, he can master the rascal!! I haven't yet, but I am getting there. Still blind as a bat but I am having tons of fun.

Also many youtube videos, crude but functional! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYun1sOP_i62Xg05tbtGVsA/videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYun1sOP_i62Xg05tbtGVsA/videos)

Recently I have been trying to revert back to open sights and shooting at 265 yard targets!

In this particular video, ignore I incorrectly spelled word "Warriors", I used the Winchester 73' with 6.4gr of Trail Boss to bombard the 265 yard targets as well as my revolver and High Velocity (1,600fps loads) using my Marlin 1894CB

https://youtu.be/Y0rpQsSVUH8 (https://youtu.be/Y0rpQsSVUH8)

Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Cliff Fendley on March 26, 2019, 11:39:15 AM
John once told me he was using his Marlin when making that 300 video. It's pretty impressive I think.
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Bryan Austin on March 26, 2019, 11:50:09 AM
John once told me he was using his Marlin when making that 300 video. It's pretty impressive I think.

That is correct, he also used a scope. I took my scope off of my Marlin but I will put it back on. I can hit 265 yard targets using open sights, both Marlin Buckohorn/Ladder and 73' Buckhorn sites...but it is not fun. I can not see where I am hitting so I have to use a spotting scope with a video recording. After each shot I stop the recording to see where the shot placement was so I can make corrections if needed. John had a heavy influence in my learning. Basically he confirmed what I did know or at least what I thought I knew.....LOL   I miss not being able to ask him questions.
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Slamfire on March 27, 2019, 02:31:42 PM
 Having read lots of your post & articles,, you are doing a fine job filling in for " HIM " John would be proud.

  Coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Bryan Austin on March 27, 2019, 03:41:24 PM
Having read lots of your post & articles,, you are doing a fine job filling in for " HIM " John would be proud.

  Coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

Thanks Hoot!!!
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: greyhawk on March 27, 2019, 04:44:10 PM
Thanks Hoot!!!

Bryan
I scrounged up a handful of old Dominion semi balloon head 44/40 cases - going to do a chrono test in the next couple weeks - lets see if your 100FPS velocity increase shows up - thats had me intrigued since you posted it a while back. Will post numbers and test method when I giterdone.
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Bryan Austin on March 27, 2019, 05:17:55 PM
Bryan
I scrounged up a handful of old Dominion semi balloon head 44/40 cases - going to do a chrono test in the next couple weeks - lets see if your 100FPS velocity increase shows up - thats had me intrigued since you posted it a while back. Will post numbers and test method when I giterdone.

Different brass can produce different velocities and pressures. Below is what I had...

40gr by weight of Goex FFFG with .18"-.20" compression pending balloon size/volume...usually .21 with modern brass (no balloonhead).

  Modern SL Brass - 1,235psi @ 8,305psi
  REM-UMC - 1,248fps @ 10,037psi
  WRA's - 1,272fps @ 11,001psi
  1880's Unheadstamped - 1,356fps @ 12,648psi
  Mixed Headstamps and primer sizes - 1,276fps @ 12,755psi

40gr by weight of Swiss FFG with .18"-.20" compression pending balloon size/volume...usually .21 with modern brass (no balloonhead).

  1880's Unheadstamped - 1,373fps @ 14,285psi

Simply guessing that since Dominion is rather young compared to the unheadstamped brass, my guess would be that your velocity will be around 1,250fps from at least a 24" barrel with a good chamber and .429 bore.

However, I can not wait to see your results....there is a good reason why I do not gamble...LOL!!!!!!

I forgot to add that all of those are from a 20" tight chamber MGM barrel. My Marlin 1894CB 24" seems to stay close to those velocities.
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Bryan Austin on March 27, 2019, 05:44:37 PM
Looking back at my old 2010 data....

Revolver, all modern brass.
Grains by Weight with compression

Mav Dutch 200gr Big Lube

Swiss FFG 40gr @ 960fps
Swiss FFG 38gr @ 935fps

Goex FFFG 40gr @ 916fps
Goex FFFG 38gr @ 900fps
Goex FFFG 32gr @ 813fps


FWIW!!

6.4gr Trail Boss 24" barrel @ 925fps
6.4gr Trail Boss 5.5" barrel @ 820fps




Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Bryan Austin on March 27, 2019, 05:47:05 PM
Another FWIW!

40gr/w of Swiss FFG, as above, in my original Marlin 1889 gave 1,365fps
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Cliff Fendley on March 27, 2019, 10:30:00 PM
That is correct, he also used a scope. I took my scope off of my Marlin but I will put it back on. I can hit 265 yard targets using open sights, both Marlin Buckohorn/Ladder and 73' Buckhorn sites...but it is not fun. I can not see where I am hitting so I have to use a spotting scope with a video recording. After each shot I stop the recording to see where the shot placement was so I can make corrections if needed. John had a heavy influence in my learning. Basically he confirmed what I did know or at least what I thought I knew.....LOL   I miss not being able to ask him questions.

Bryan, what would the twist be on that marlin 44-40? 1-36? I think John told me but can't remember.
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Bryan Austin on March 28, 2019, 06:14:09 AM
Bryan, what would the twist be on that marlin 44-40? 1-36? I think John told me but can't remember.

I think so. I think they are all 1:36. I know my MGM barrel is 1:20 :-)
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Cliff Fendley on March 28, 2019, 09:42:26 PM
Just curious because I've been able to get tighter groups at longer distances with the older 1:36 twist barrels on the Ubertis or with original Winchesters. I've never owned a Marlin 44-40 but it appears they are great shooters.
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Bryan Austin on March 28, 2019, 09:45:36 PM
Just curious because I've been able to get tighter groups at longer distances with the older 1:36 twist barrels on the Ubertis or with original Winchesters. I've never owned a Marlin 44-40 but it appears they are great shooters.

You bet, My Marlin 1894CB is awesome, just wonder when I will burn out the barrel!!!
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: scrubby2009 on March 31, 2019, 11:32:27 AM
Another FWIW!

40gr/w of Swiss FFG, as above, in my original Marlin 1889 gave 1,365fps
Bryan, your detailed posts and gathering of minutiae regarding reloads and powder traits/performance always interest me. I also have a M1889 in 38WCF w/a 28" barrel. I can safely assume similar performance with the 180gr RNFP? Using Winchester 300 primers, and Goex FFFg in Starline brass.
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Cholla Hill Tirador on March 31, 2019, 11:37:17 AM
Bryan, your detailed posts and gathering of minutiae regarding reloads and powder traits/performance always interest me. I also have a M1889 in 38WCF w/a 28" barrel. I can safely assume similar performance with the 180gr RNFP? Using Winchester 300 primers, and Goex FFFg in Starline brass.

  I can help you with that, if I may.

 I have a pair of '73 Winchesters, one 1886 and one 1888, both 38-40. Starline brass, Winchester LPP, and as much Swiss 3Fg as I could get under a 192 gr. bullet cast from an RCBS 40-180-FN mould yielded 1400 +/- fps from both rifles.

 CHT
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Bryan Austin on March 31, 2019, 12:28:45 PM
  I can help you with that, if I may.

 I have a pair of '73 Winchesters, one 1886 and one 1888, both 38-40. Starline brass, Winchester LPP, and as much Swiss 3Fg as I could get under a 192 gr. bullet cast from an RCBS 40-180 mould yielded 1400 +/- fps from both rifles.

 CHT

Thanks because I am standing here sitting beside myself not knowing what to do!!!!! LOL!
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: greyhawk on March 31, 2019, 10:07:41 PM
Looking back at my old 2010 data....

Revolver, all modern brass.
Grains by Weight with compression

Mav Dutch 200gr Big Lube

Swiss FFG 40gr @ 960fps
Swiss FFG 38gr @ 935fps


Bryan  test results Dominion semi balloon head  vs RP modern cases
found there is very little difference in case capacity here maybe half a grain
Used 39 grains of my homemade powder - a coarse-ish FFFg grade - 200grain RCBS boolit (Not the Cowboy mold) Large Rifle primers in both cases
five shots of each fired alternately over my RCBS chrony
Fouler shot first then go for it, fouler clocked 1081 and I think I messed up it was likely a smokeless .
Dominion               Remington Peters
1277                              1251
1263                              1252
1281                              1263
1271                              1279
1274                              1259
av 1273 ES 18              av 1260 ES 28

I was thinking maybe the cone shape bottom of the Dominion shells may have given better/ more consistent ignition (was looking at that almost +100fps and solid increase in pressure you got) dont know that +13fps average and ten points less ES really says much with this small number of shots. No big deal going on here I think!   


Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Bryan Austin on April 01, 2019, 11:04:23 AM
Greyhawk, thanks for that report.

Although I do not have any Dominion cases, I do know that some of my later Western and WRA solid-head, semi-balloonhead cases have a smaller "balloon pocket" design than the real early cases. These later cases give me near identical results as modern brass.

1,250fps is consistent with early reported velocities. It has been said though that early smokeless increased velocities 50fps @ 1,300fps. It has also been said that early velocimeters...or whatever they were called back then, were not as accurate as later equipment. Thus, 1,300fps may be consistent for both black and smokeless.

Don't have a clue about home made black powder but it looks like you are the boss with those consistent velocities!!!!!!!

NICE!
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Bryan Austin on April 01, 2019, 11:07:36 AM
Shot these this morning. He is a recap from another forum...

I never thought in a million years I would even be attempting to shoot at long distances with the 44-40. One reason is that I never had the opportunity, lacking a range long enough. Another reason is that I just didn't think I could do it...not that I can now!

After I got deeply involved in the history of the cartridge, it's myths and legends, so I decided to give it a shot with smokeless powders. I did well with a scope so it was time to try the open sights with both the Marlin flip up sight and the Winchester 73' Buckhorn sight.

Since I can't see where I hit unless the target moves or I stop recording and review each shot...I decided to just shoot ten shot group barrages and just see where they grouped. Sometimes, as in the last video, the flip up sight began to bump up one notch after each shot or so. Gotta keep it tight I guess.

I also decided to fill the mag tube with ten rather than one at a time as I had been doing.

I again decided to try different bullets and sizes. I figured I'd start off with ACME's 44-40 .427 that went very well. I would like to try a barrage of these later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndcpdnUSmFc

Then on to ACME's 44 Magnum .431 resized to .429, not much difference but could be a tad more accurate. Don't forget this is me shooting and I am using open sights....a bit to be desired!! The flip up sight bumped up from the recoil after the forth shot I think it was. I did see some dirt splatter so I aimed a bit lower not knowing what had happened until after I watched the video.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-nAQiNvFhM

I also tried some 431, resized to .429 powder coated bullets as well as some 431 resized to .429 44 Magnum 240gr SWC powder coated. Both did well but those two need to be revisited. The 240gr SWC did better than expected for a 1/36 twist.

Fell free to give opinions about bullet sizes, bullet hardness, powder coating, twist rate...and even my poor marksmanship!!
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Oregon Bill on April 01, 2019, 11:18:16 AM
I'd sure as heck hate to be hanging out 265 yards away from you thinking "He can't touch me with that little old .44WCF way out here ..."

 :D
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Bryan Austin on April 01, 2019, 12:01:42 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmYug0g1s2I
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: greyhawk on April 01, 2019, 04:56:37 PM
Greyhawk, thanks for that report.

Although I do not have any Dominion cases, I do know that some of my later Western and WRA solid-head, semi-balloonhead cases have a smaller "balloon pocket" design than the real early cases. These later cases give me near identical results as modern brass.

1,250fps is consistent with early reported velocities. It has been said though that early smokeless increased velocities 50fps @ 1,300fps. It has also been said that early velocimeters...or whatever they were called back then, were not as accurate as later equipment. Thus, 1,300fps may be consistent for both black and smokeless.

Don't have a clue about home made black powder but it looks like you are the boss with those consistent velocities!!!!!!!

NICE!

Bryan
A little bit more care in loading and an overpowder wad I think I could shrink the spread some in those 44/40 loads - getting single digit ES in my 45/75 and 45/70 loads - using a 45 thou HDPE wad in those.
 I shot a lot of blackpowder without an overpowder wad (stubborn I guess - thought it was a waste of good powder space) but the further I go the more convinced I get that a decent wad is a crucial part of an accurate blackpowder round - less so in smaller cases for sure - but then we tend to expect less from the "pistol calibre" guns too (and we shouldnt) .

Further to my test I fired a fouler at the start and another of the same loads at the end of the string - I think they were smokeless loads - 1012 and 1081 FPS - they were 225 grain CBE boolits (big wide flat point) both went sideways through the target at 125 yards - my rifle will not shoot that heavier boolit accurately at longer distances - thats a big part of Why I dont like Wano powder - I lose about 150 fps velocity with Wano in the 44/40 vs GoEx or my stuff (the GoEx is 25 yrs old stuff and 5FA ungraphited grade - it was about 5% to 10% quicker than their FFFg back then) 
Rifle is an early (1975 or so) Uberti 1866 - the model with the 73 style trigger block/ lever safety
Title: Re: How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)
Post by: Bryan Austin on April 01, 2019, 05:14:17 PM
Great update....thanks for that information!