Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Uberti, Pietta and other SAA Clones => Topic started by: Dave T on January 28, 2019, 05:06:56 PM
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Leaving out the Ruger Vaquero (when uglier guns are built, Ruger will build them) which of the "safety" mechanisms the various makers have come up with for carrying a chambered round under the hammer, is the most dependable, reliable, and trouble free? Inquiring minds want to know (smile).
Dave
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Actually, "SAFETY MECHANISMS" Leaves out some possibilities. There are, however a couple. Uberti came up with a real neat mechanical, Whereby lowering the hammer to the "safety notch" pushed a spring loaded pin that extended a hammer block into a recess in the frame that effectively prevented the hammer from contacting the firing pin. It was not real popular because it was visible on the hammer and some folks told real exception as it wasn't "Authentic." Who cares. It actually worked.
Next up is the Two Position Base Pin. Simply an overly long base pin, with TWO recesses to place the Base Pin completely through the frame stopping the forward travel of the Hammer. Simple. Effective. However, If you Happen to run the Pin all the way into it's "safety" position, and your Significant Other steps to the line to shoot a stage .............. Don't plan on a hot meal (for about a week).
Next up is the Transfer Bar. Not limited to Ruger. Both Uberti and Pietta have built SAA replicas with transfer bars. Very effective. May well break at the worst possible time (Murphy's Law).
For mechanicals, Bout it although I may have missed something
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There is the new Uberti safety which is inside the hammer and nothing shows outside. The firing pin stays retracted in the hammer and cannot reach the cartridge primer unless the trigger is pulled which then causes the firing pin to extend further out in order to strike a cartridge primer. As soon as the trigger is released the spring loaded firing pin again retracts into the hammer enough that it cannot touch the cartridge primer.
I just bought my first single action revolver the has this type safety so will see how well it works when I take it to the range.
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Lou,
I will look forward to hearing about your new gun's range day.
Coffin,
The extra long cylinder pin is just too cumbersome to use when drawing the gun to shoot it. I was asking about the various firing pin blocks and which one is most reliable. I've head complaints about the new Uberti system and don't know much about any of the others.
A Ruger would be the easiest solution but I haven't yet got past how ugly they are. (lol)
Dave
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I take exception to calling the Rugers "ugly". They are fine pistols, and work well. After decades, I finally added a new style 44 Blackhawk to my meager arsonal, the gun I learned to shoot with. So far, I have no issues with their safety setup. I do, however, have to get used to having no half cock on the hammer again.
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Dave,
Well ..... Heck. You did ask about the "Safety" mechanisms (plural) without restricting to the hammer and you didn't specify you wanted to be able to use the gun "in a hurry" ::) Since Uberti dropped the old "in hammer" hammer block and went to the two position Base Pin, most of us (gunplumbers) just whack off the last 3/32 of the pin, dress it and shove 'er in ..... then just load 5.
I'm retired now for several years, so I'm not working on the new(er) SAs with STUPID firing pins, but I have heard the new idea works just fine, so long as you don't want to go fast. Were it mine, I stick that firing pin permanently FULL FORWARD and forget about it. While it (the stupid firing pin) is a marvel of engineering and execution, it's STUPID as hell (my Opine)
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Capt,
I wasn't trying to offend anyone. Rugers are safe, well made, dependable revolvers. I just don't personally like the looks of the Vaquero. They tried to make it look like a SAA, but missed.
Coffin,
You are correct. I didn't specify what kind of safety I was asking about. I'll try to do better next time. (smile0
Dave
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You could have one extra cylinder locking notch cut between chambers on your cylinder and use that as a safety notch...(Something Colt should have done back in the 1870s)
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Hi Willy,
Aummmmm, Colt DID put safety notches between cylinders on early cartridge conversions. Then Colt discontinued the 12 stop cylinder for safety reasons. Didn't work so Bueno.
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Dave Coffinmaker pretty much covered them all. I personally detest transfer bars primarily because of what they do to the trigger, that is it forces the trigger to sit out toward the center of the trigger guard. That and Ruger chooses to put a silver trigger in a blue revolver thereby giving a Baikal-esque look. I've always said of Ruger's- They're built like tanks, they look like tanks, and they feel like tanks. I own three Ruger's, so I have the right to my opinion on the matter. ;)
My personal favorite is the pivoting hammer block which Uberti used until the advent of the retracting firing pin (RFP). It is actuated when the hammer is pulled back to the first notch. In my opinion it's very unobtrusive, and although I've yet to drop a revolver and test it, I'm sure it's quite effective.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Single%20Actions/Frisco%20hammer%202_zpsvae71ilf.jpg) (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Single%20Actions/Frisco%20hammer%202_zpsvae71ilf.jpg.html)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Single%20Actions/Frisco%20hammer-%20rear_zps1ltg3rnh.jpg) (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Single%20Actions/Frisco%20hammer-%20rear_zps1ltg3rnh.jpg.html)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Single%20Actions/Ubertihammer-red_zps1aea1869.jpg) (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Single%20Actions/Ubertihammer-red_zps1aea1869.jpg.html)
I still say the standard safety notch is more effective than given credit. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: For more than a century and a half hunters, soldiers and shooters in general have galivanted about the woods, plains and battlefields carrying all manner of rifles and shotguns with caps on the nipples/rounds chambered and their hammers pulled back to the safety notch. Stop and think for a minute how many long guns utilize the half cock safety; all manner of muzzle loaders, the Henry, 1866, 1873, 1876, 1886, 1892, 1894, the Colt Lightning, '97 Winchester and many more. Yet for some reason many of the same people consider it fool-hardy to do the same with a revolver.
I've heard every excuse imaginable as to why it's OK with an 8 lb. long gun, but not a 2 1/2 lb. revolver. I think my favorite is that the safety notches on the hammers of long guns are "stronger". A couple of weeks ago I was perusing eBay and Gunbroker looking for a new hammer for an old '94 Winchester. I kid you not, there were TWO '94 Winchester hammers with broken safety notches on Gunbroker.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Single%20Actions/Broken%2094%20Winchester%20sear-1_zpsxet2vd6o.jpg) (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Single%20Actions/Broken%2094%20Winchester%20sear-1_zpsxet2vd6o.jpg.html)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Single%20Actions/Broken%2094%20Winchester%20sear_zpspvulsh05.jpg) (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Single%20Actions/Broken%2094%20Winchester%20sear_zpspvulsh05.jpg.html)
The most effective safety lies squarely between your ears. I've always felt that when carrying a revolver, a fella should always have in the back of his mind where it is relative to ones activity. Last week I was sorting through some cattle, climbing in and out of the lot, in and out of the loading chute, loading calves, etc. As always a Uberti SA was on my hip and as always, where that revolver was never left my mind.
Cholla
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CHT,
Thanks for the informative and illustrative (smile) post. I was thinking about this in terms of a truck gun or even an occasional carry gun (concealed carry permit holder). My USFAs are just too expensive for this so I was going to look at the Italian offerings and the idea of actually carrying 6 instead of my normal 5 rounds came to mind. Since I can't realistically try the various solutions different makers have come up with I thought I would just ask.
I agree with your "tank" comments about Rugers. At one time I had a good collection of Old Model Flat-tops. They were always deemed "unsafe" with 6 rounds loaded, as are all modern copies of the Colt lock work.
Your comments about the original safety notch make sense but I've been told since I started this single action revolver business in the late 1960s that loading six is dangerous, stupid, foolish, and in some circles flat out forbidden (SASS would be an example). Noit sure I'm ready to break with all that tradition and habit. But...thanks again for your comments and pictures.
Dave
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Dave you should certainly do that which is most comfortable to you. But remember we were told that eating chocolate caused acne, a certain amount of bullet "energy" is required to kill an animal, and that self-gratification would cause blindness (Now what'd I do with my glasses..... ;D).
CHT
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The so-called "safety" notches are intended to prevent the gun from firing should the hammer inadvertently slip off the sear! They were never intended as a carry position! The idea may seem like a good one for that purpose, but that wasn't the intent of the original designers. As you can see by the photo, these are very thin, and subject to break if the gun is dropped on the hammer spur! The "five beans in the wheel" concept probably was okay in the days when people were more knowledgeable about guns, but Ruger found out the hard way that wasn't the case anymore, which is why they came up with the transfer bar design. They even offered a conversion for the old Flat Top's, which they would install for free. In actuality, the conversion transfer bar was a little different from the later ones that we see today. I haven't seen all that many broken transfer bars over the years. So far as a 'truck gun" or CCW is concerned, I would NOT use any single action revolver unless it was absolutely necessary! There are better choices in DA revolvers or semi-auto pistols. Just sayin'...
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Hi Willy,
Aummmmm, Colt DID put safety notches between cylinders on early cartridge conversions. Then Colt discontinued the 12 stop cylinder for safety reasons. Didn't work so Bueno.
Whoa,,,hold on there..Ya can't just leave me hanging out here,,,
WHY???.Wouldn't they work?
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The so-called "safety" notches are intended to prevent the gun from firing should the hammer inadvertently slip off the sear! They were never intended as a carry position! The idea may seem like a good one for that purpose, but that wasn't the intent of the original designers. As you can see by the photo, these are very thin, and subject to break if the gun is dropped on the hammer spur! The "five beans in the wheel" concept probably was okay in the days when people were more knowledgeable about guns, but Ruger found out the hard way that wasn't the case anymore, which is why they came up with the transfer bar design. They even offered a conversion for the old Flat Top's, which they would install for free. In actuality, the conversion transfer bar was a little different from the later ones that we see today. I haven't seen all that many broken transfer bars over the years. So far as a 'truck gun" or CCW is concerned, I would NOT use any single action revolver unless it was absolutely necessary! There are better choices in DA revolvers or semi-auto pistols. Just sayin'...
Of course they were intended as carry positions, why else would they be there?? The current Colt Single Action Army Manual refers to the first "click", repeatedly, as the "safety notch" and "safety position". The Uberti manual for their single actions refer to the first click as "Basic Safety", "At Rest" and "Transport Position".
Did you read with the post with the photos of the hammers? The hammers are out of rifles, rifles that most consider safe to carry with a round chambered and the hammer in the safety notch. Although I have no empirical data, my bet is that the broken safety notches we see on SA revolvers are not from being dropped, but from the trigger being pulled while the sear is in the safety notch. Going back to the current Colt Single Action Army Manual, on page 19 they warn of this stating that excessive trigger force can break the safety notch.
As far as your recommendation for "better" choices for defense, I take firm issue with your assertion. I get that for most shooters, SA revolvers are nothing more than novelties. However there are those of us who have fired SA's to the extent that they are merely extensions of our arms. I have some fine semi-autos and DA revolvers and shoot them regularly, but don't even come close to shooting them with the same efficiency or accuracy as I do my SA's.
NOW....we've strayed from the OP's question, which was answered a bit ago.
CHT
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I read somewhere that when Sam Colt and Sam Walker were developing the 1847 Walker it was said that the benefit of a trigger guard(as oppsed to the Paterson which had no trigger guard) was that now it could be safely carried with the hammer cocked.
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I agree with CHT, while there are other options, a good SA is fine for carry. It shows the person has conviction, and won't waste shots like the "spray and pray" people of today. Not to mention, when you do go click, a hog leg is a better bludgeon than a plastic pistol any day.
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My original question was about which of the Italian makers has the better "Safety Hammer". Not sure I ever got a clear answer to that but the responses were informative none the less.
As to carrying a single action revolver, or having one in my truck for emergencies, I've always been fascinated to here the arguments against, then those same people will turn around and admit to carrying a J-frame S&W with only 5 rounds on board. I guarantee you I can shoot one of my single actions better than I can a Chief's special and I'm pretty sure the 45 Colt round is more effective in stopping a fight than the 38 Special.
CHT, I think you may be on to something in saying the broken trigger sears we've all seen pictured are more likely from Joe Funk, the cowboy wanna-be, pulling hard on the trigger when the gun was cocked to the first notch. And I don't think the hammer has enough inertia to fire a round from there. So Joe probably didn't shoot himself or anyone else...thank goodness.
Dave
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Hey Dave,
I agree with others here that the hammer block safety is my favorite of the Italian offerings. My El Patron Comp had that safety and I felt very comfortable with it. I say that because I just got my first "retracting" firing pin which seems to be a "sound" system that will allow a "safe to carry" fully loaded S.A. with hammer fully down. I've read that some of the comp.crowd have had ftf's and light primer strikes (caused by early trigger release during rapid fire). This, I think, can be remedied with an accelerated hammer while still reducing the hammer draw to "normal" Comp. strength main spring tension. Hopefully, the hammer will outrun the early trigger release. I guess we will see . . .
Mike
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Mike,
I'm too old and busted up to compete any more so early release of the trigger shouldn't be a problem for me (smile).
It's probably time to get my hands on a couple of these Italian single actions with the various safeties so I can see and feel what they are like up close and personal.
Thanks to all for the feed back,
Dave
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OK. Going Back to my original post, citing almost ALL of the know SA safeties in the universe, but now knowing it should be narrowed down to "Hammer Safeties" ..... Which means we have to skip the two position base pin (frame safety) and the transfer bar (frame safety) and arrive at my favorite of them ALL.
I'm right in line with CHT for a Hammer safety. The hammer block that was "activated" by the pin in the Uberti Safety Cock Notch is perhaps the most ...... favored. There were/are those that Poo Poo'd it because it was "Un-Colt" but it was very effective for the nabob whom wanted to pack a 6 Gun with "6-up."
I actually wish they still made them.
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OK. Going Back to my original post, citing almost ALL of the know SA safeties in the universe, but now knowing it should be narrowed down to "Hammer Safeties" ..... Which means we have to skip the two position base pin (frame safety) and the transfer bar (frame safety) and arrive at my favorite of them ALL.
I'm right in line with CHT for a Hammer safety. The hammer block that was "activated" by the pin in the Uberti Safety Cock Notch is perhaps the most ...... favored. There were/are those that Poo Poo'd it because it was "Un-Colt" but it was very effective for the nabob whom wanted to pack a 6 Gun with "6-up."
I actually wish they still made them.
Yup. A couple o' months ago a fella on the wire had two used ones for sale. I snatched them up post haste.
CHT
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My Uberti Flattop has the hammer block. I'd rather have a no-safety hammer but if I had to choose between hammer block and retractable firing pin I'd take the hammer block. The hammer block still has 4 clicks and more importantly the trigger sits in the normal spot. The RFP has 3 clicks and the trigger sits too far forward when at rest. Unless Uberti thought the hammer block was not safe I don't know why they even invented the new RFP? Maybe they just think the forward resting trigger is less noticeable than the hammer block? You only see the hammer block when the gun is cocked and you only notice the forward trigger when the hammer is not cocked, six of one half dozen the other.
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<snip> Unless Uberti thought the hammer block was not safe I don't know why they even invented the new RFP? Maybe they just think the forward resting trigger is less noticeable than the hammer block? <snip>
They went with the RFP for the same reason Ruger went with the transfer bar. These safeties are automatic and they remove the factor of human error, and therefore the manufacturers liability. The hammer block is a fine safety device, BUT it requires the operator of the revolver to pull the hammer back to the safety notch. The transfer bar and RFP remove the human factor. In other words, shooters can load six and no longer need bother with situational awareness. Our entire society is moving in this direction and someday with cars that brake for us, let us know when were drifting into the adjacent lane, etc.
Even in the microcosm of shooting and handloading, our world is filling up with things that remove danger for us. For example, Trail Boss and Tin Star- We no longer have to be cautious when loading because you can't double charge with this powder. Gadgets that let us know when our the powder hopper or primer feed on our progressive press is low so we don't have to pay attention anymore. Cars that automatically brake for us and warn us when we're crossing into another lane. Humans are being dumbed down at an alarming rate.
CHT
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Trigger position at rest with the rfp is necessary because with the trigger at the rear position would have the firing pin in the forward position. The firing pin position is totally controlled by the trigger position.
Mike
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The transfer bar and RFP remove the human factor. In other words, shooters can load six and no longer need bother with situational awareness. Our entire society is moving in this direction and someday with cars that brake for us, let us know when were drifting into the adjacent lane, etc.
Even in the microcosm of shooting and handloading, our world is filling up with things that remove danger for us. For example, Trail Boss and Tin Star- We no longer have to be cautious when loading because you can't double charge with this powder. Gadgets that let us know when our the powder hopper or primer feed on our progressive press is low so we don't have to pay attention anymore. Cars that automatically brake for us and warn us when we're crossing into another lane. Humans are being dumbed down at an alarming rate.
CHT
My Dear CHT -
I believe you have summed up the situation in a nutshell.
What The Great Unwashed ( and the corporate lawyers) don't get are the resulting unintended consequences!
like
- people who freeze to death in a perfectly insulated house because " the heat didn't come on"
and they "didn't know" that a dozen plumber candles in soup cans could heat up a 12x14 room
- people who never bother to put up a larder with a weeks worth of canned food and several gallons of water and starve during
a natural disaster becasue "the store is always right there"
- and now self driving cars that will make Artificial Intelligence decisions of which bystanders ( or occupants) will die in an untenable siuation , ie:
the car knows it can't brake to avoid the jacknifed semi, so what will it choose ?
+ go left, head-on into oncoming traffic killing 2 vehicles worth of occupants
+ go right taking out a minivan full of a family, and possibly the car's occupants
+ go straight into the semi, killing the car's occupants
The lawyers are lining up to go nuts over that coming situation, and are already litigating several deaths caused by self-driving cars....
And the only thing they care about is "who takes the blame" !
I myself got lucky and recently snagged an old Sauer & Son single action with a perfectly nice "carry five" system. I got it dirt cheap
at the LGS because nobody knew WTF a "Herter's 44" was lol . I am perfectly happy with it 'cuz for my purposes most of the time if I can't do it with five I am in trouble anyway, and if I absolutely need 6 , a correct functioning safety notch with a hammer thong is perfectly good in my mind.
yhs
prof marvel
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They went with the RFP for the same reason Ruger went with the transfer bar. These safeties are automatic and they remove the factor of human error, and therefore the manufacturers liability. The hammer block is a fine safety device, BUT it requires the operator of the revolver to pull the hammer back to the safety notch. The transfer bar and RFP remove the human factor. In other words, shooters can load six and no longer need bother with situational awareness. Our entire society is moving in this direction and someday with cars that brake for us, let us know when were drifting into the adjacent lane, etc.
Even in the microcosm of shooting and handloading, our world is filling up with things that remove danger for us. For example, Trail Boss and Tin Star- We no longer have to be cautious when loading because you can't double charge with this powder. Gadgets that let us know when our the powder hopper or primer feed on our progressive press is low so we don't have to pay attention anymore. Cars that automatically brake for us and warn us when we're crossing into another lane. Humans are being dumbed down at an alarming rate.
CHT
CHT,
You have struck the nail upon the flat part.
Dave
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Yepper!! PLUS ONE to CHT. The Legislators are bound and determined to Legislate us to "DEATH."
If there are BAD decisions and choices to be made .... I prefer to make my own .. thank you very much.
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Lou,
I will look forward to hearing about your new gun's range day.
Coffin,
The extra long cylinder pin is just too cumbersome to use when drawing the gun to shoot it. I was asking about the various firing pin blocks and which one is most reliable. I've head complaints about the new Uberti system and don't know much about any of the others.
A Ruger would be the easiest solution but I haven't yet got past how ugly they are. (lol)
Dave
I've been using Ubertis since 1974, and just bought a new one with the new safety system. It performs flawlessly and tunes out very well. I recommend the new Ubertis.
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Well ,,just to add to this safety thread,,,I just cut an extra locking notch in my Uberti EL PATRON,,,because I use it for hunting .
And havin an extra round never hurts.
I cut it opposite of the ser# on the cylinder so all I have to do is let the hammer down when the ser# is under the top strap.
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Well ,,just to add to this safety thread,,,I just cut an extra locking notch in my Uberti EL PATRON,,,because I use it for hunting .
And havin an extra round never hurts.
I cut it opposite of the ser# on the cylinder so all I have to do is let the hammer down when the ser# is under the top strap.
Interesting discussion
I am not a pistolero but I do own a ruger and two make believe colt capgunz (one of which has the safety pins on the cylinder)
The ruger transfer bar system works but also means I cant get a decent trigger on it for slow work.
Safety pins or an extra locking notch would seem to me to be the best answer (or one of em)
Anything like the dual notch base pin that needs to be dislodged before we can shoot would seem to me to run counter to the point of the excercise ------ If ya gonna need six - its a fair assumption ya might want the first one quick and easy ? - going to bat with an empty under the hammer and five ready to roll might be a better plan? (than anything that slows down or fumbles that first shot)
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Interesting discussion
I am not a pistolero but I do own a ruger and two make believe colt capgunz (one of which has the safety pins on the cylinder)
The ruger transfer bar system works but also means I cant get a decent trigger on it for slow work.
Safety pins or an extra locking notch would seem to me to be the best answer (or one of em)
Anything like the dual notch base pin that needs to be dislodged before we can shoot would seem to me to run counter to the point of the excercise ------ If ya gonna need six - its a fair assumption ya might want the first one quick and easy ? - going to bat with an empty under the hammer and five ready to roll might be a better plan? (than anything that slows down or fumbles that first shot)
The notch I cut was a locking notch on the cylinder,,,not the cylinder pin...The hammer rests between chambers..To put the gun into action is nothing more than cocking the gun.
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Willy, that sounds like a workable solution.
As for the two position base pin, that was for import requirements, as the cartridge guns must have some sort of safety. So Pietta and Uberti both use the two position base pin. Even the OT's and conversions have that fold-out blocking arm in the hammer.
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The notch I cut was a locking notch on the cylinder,,,not the cylinder pin...The hammer rests between chambers..To put the gun into action is nothing more than cocking the gun.
Yeah I got that - similar principle to the safety pins on a capgun - hammer down and safe but shes ready to go!
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"IT"
"IT" is ready to go. "IT" I have never been able to attach a gender designation to a cold, unfeeling brainless lump of metal and wood.
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"IT"
"IT" is ready to go. "IT" I have never been able to attach a gender designation to a cold, unfeeling brainless lump of metal and wood.
my mate Jack said .. we are two similar peoples separated by (how we use) a common language.
she gets attached (or used to be) to a lot of unfeeling brainless lumps of metal and other stuff downunder......
In parts of your country I hear it is now very uncool to attach the same gender designation to appropriately shaped and configured (but equally brainless and unfeeling) lumps of living, breathing human. ????
aussie males hav recently been branded as uncouth, misogynistic critters...... gotta do our best to keep that alive too
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my mate Jack said .. we are two similar peoples separated by (how we use) a common language.
she gets attached (or used to be) to a lot of unfeeling brainless lumps of metal and other stuff downunder......
In parts of your country I hear it is now very uncool to attach the same gender designation to appropriately shaped and configured (but equally brainless and unfeeling) lumps of living, breathing human. ????
aussie males hav recently been branded as uncouth, misogynistic critters...... gotta do our best to keep that alive too
Don't feel bad Amigo , sometimes I cant even understand what them Yankee's are saying . LOL ,,,,DT
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I dunno know!!! I grew up and a lot of fellow shooters use the term "How does she shoot"-"She's not shootin right"-Gotta get her out"!! I'm a guitar player and here in the upper Midwest runnin a furnace to battle the cold robs the inside air of humidity. I have thing-ee's I either put in the guitar case or as in the case with acoustic's, ya put it in the sound hole that ya add water to at intervals that helps keep the moisture at an acceptable level. Just don't want that wood to dry out, can even crack if gets to dry. Anyway when my wife hears me say "I'm gonna water my girls" or "She needs to be watered"- the Mrs.knows what I'm gonna do. Humid summers, ya can leave em in and they absorb excess moisture. My Dad spent five years on the same ship (40-45, WW2) and he always called the ship "Her"!. Just sayin.
Regards to loadin five or six, when I'm shootin by myself or with some friends, at a private range, or my own, or walkin along a river shootin targets of opportunity, I always load six, it's a six shooter.
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Yup. I guess I don't truly understand the Conundrum about loading 6. If you can't get it done with 5, perhaps you should have brought a SHOTGUN??
I'M with Choker. If I'm just out rolling cans, shooting up plastic krap in a slough, Potting the odd feral cat, I load 6 and carry the thing in my hand on Half-Cock. It is, after all, a "six shooter" right??
The five shot R & D conversion cylinders are equipped with an extra set of notches to lock the cylinder between chambers. Done mostly to appease SASS rules, but works equally well for sporting guns. As mentioned, at one time, Colt did the same thing. As long as you have the cylinder in the fixture and have the Jig set up .... Why not?? It's a fine idea.
But and however, I keep coming back to getting it done with 5. Oh, and someone mentioned how slow it is to pull a 6 gun with two position base pin and get it into action quickly. NOT. That's one of the reasons one chops and dresses the that two position base pin to make it a one position base pin.
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Yup. I guess I don't truly understand the Conundrum about loading 6. If you can't get it done with 5, perhaps you should have brought a SHOTGUN??
Ditto ;)
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Just to put this back on track, the original question was:
Leaving out the Ruger Vaquero (when uglier guns are built, Ruger will build them) which of the "safety" mechanisms the various makers have come up with for carrying a chambered round under the hammer, is the most dependable, reliable, and trouble free?
There was no implication that it "couldn't get done with 5". I prefer carrying 5 rounds in the small collection of USFA single actions I own.
I was simply curious about the various safety gadgets the Italian makers have come up with and which one in the collective experience of the members here was the most reliable. This was all prompted by reading of the new Uberti system that has caused problems for some.
Dave
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The whole "if you can't get it done with _____rounds..." argument is silly. When hunting, it's rare I ever need more than one round to do the job, for that matter it's rare to even have the opportunity for more than one shot when hunting with a revolver. But that doesn't mean I only carry one round.
CHT
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The whole "if you can't get it done with _____rounds..." argument is silly. When hunting, it's rare I ever need more than one round to do the job, for that matter it's rare to even have the opportunity for more than one shot when hunting with a revolver. But that doesn't mean I only carry one round.
CHT
I agree - I dont remember going out in the field with a partly filled magazine very often - always felt like the right thing to do was fill it.
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Well .... Heck Dave,
You're right. You started this thread with a fairly simple and straight forward question. Simple really. Then, we took off and complicated the heck out of it.
HARRUMPFF!!
Here it is. It's been and long and miserable winter. Most of us are suffering severe CABIN FEVER. We haven't had much to discuss as the forums have been ...... DEAD ..... Then your Question comes along and those of us with near terminal boredom have something to discuss. For the most part, our key points and power points are ..... nonsense. As, CHT is right. I just to hunt with a Contender. One shot. All I ever needed. Due to a really hilarious accident, I even took down an 8 point bull elk with a Ruger Blakchawk .45 ..... one shot.
In summation, due to extreme boredom, we have taken your simple question out to two pages and counting. I mean, actually, I pretty much answered you OP in my First Answer. Not good enough. We needed something to do. SO: TAG!!! You're IT!!
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I really like willy's idea of adding another bolt notch to the cylinder!
as long as you have space to put the firing pin between cartridges.
add a hammer thong to the holster and your all set.
It's been and long and miserable winter. Most of us are suffering severe CABIN FEVER.
and avalanches.
pf mvl
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I still have a nagging problem with loading 6 - even with revolvers with "foolproof" safety systems. That is, so many of these revolvers with safety systems have been modified to remove this function. I was at a gunshow and a table had a pair of Rugers that had been "slicked up" to play CAS. The transfer bars had been removed. I asked the table guy about them and he knew nothing. He was selling them on consignment for a widow. I pointed out that the transfer bars had been removed. So? So. What about the D.S. that buys these and thinks he can safely carry 6? Now I get the uneasy feeling about the new Uberti retracting firing pin safety. It can easaly be defeated and it doesn't show. It looks like a 4 click Colt action but now it's definitely not safe and there is no transfer bar missing to give you a clue.
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I still have a nagging problem with loading 6 - even with revolvers with "foolproof" safety systems. That is, so many of these revolvers with safety systems have been modified to remove this function. I was at a gunshow and a table had a pair of Rugers that had been "slicked up" to play CAS. The transfer bars had been removed. I asked the table guy about them and he knew nothing. He was selling them on consignment for a widow. I pointed out that the transfer bars had been removed. So? So. What about the D.S. that buys these and thinks he can safely carry 6? Now I get the uneasy feeling about the new Uberti retracting firing pin safety. It can easaly be defeated and it doesn't show. It looks like a 4 click Colt action but now it's definitely not safe and there is no transfer bar missing to give you a clue.
Took the transfer bar outta my single six 22 in an effort to get a decent trigger pull on it .........shootin at pistol club can only load five - but the dang thing is unwieldy to work with and trigger didnt improve much so its goin back in - would not recommend that course of action on a Ruger (this one is OLD). Might be I sell it !
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A CAVIAT (or two): I don't like Rugers. I didn't like Rugers when I was still in business. I digress. There was a school of thought at one time .... one should do away with the Xfir Bar and add a Half Cock. This was done to provide a "catch" to prevent the speed burners in CAS from missing full cock and having to go "round the world" to pick up the unfired round. It worked ....... sorta.
First time I saw one of those guns I like'd to crapped my drawers. It (the half cock) wasn't a Half Cock Notch, it was a half cock LEDGE just like the full cock ledge. Were one loading away and spinning the cylinder to check for hight primers (very popular and flashy thing) and touched the trigger the hammer would fall (remember?? No Xfir Bar) and folks really thought that was OK.
I don't actually know how the Ruger mechanics are doing the deed this days (I haven't looked) and I don't much care (Remember?? I don't like Rugers) as I'm not really interested. No place to put the Caps.
So .... as above, and in partial response to Bibbyman, it is all too true any mechanical "system" devised by any overpaid engineers, can be defeated by determined individuals. Also, mechanical systems are also prone to failure. Murphy's Law ..... remember!!! Any in designed in mechanical safety requires one should use it. The Mechanically devised safety I like best is either a 10 stop 5 shot R & D type conversion cylinder or a 12 stop Colt pattern cylinder. Either must be mechanically engaged. Without design mechanical intervention, hammer down on empty chamber is the biz.
We must however, remain ever vigilant. It is a known factor, there is absolutely NO mechanical safety system, ever devised my man, that cannot be defeated by a determined IDIOT. so there.
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I still have a nagging problem with loading 6 - even with revolvers with "foolproof" safety systems. That is, so many of these revolvers with safety systems have been modified to remove this function. I was at a gunshow and a table had a pair of Rugers that had been "slicked up" to play CAS. The transfer bars had been removed. I asked the table guy about them and he knew nothing. He was selling them on consignment for a widow. I pointed out that the transfer bars had been removed. So? So. What about the D.S. that buys these and thinks he can safely carry 6? Now I get the uneasy feeling about the new Uberti retracting firing pin safety. It can easaly be defeated and it doesn't show. It looks like a 4 click Colt action but now it's definitely not safe and there is no transfer bar missing to give you a clue.
I can definitely see this new Uberti system getting someone hurt because the way it's made I can just see it gumming up inside the hammer and not letting the firing pin retract. Generally when others fail the guns just don't fire but this new design is an accident waiting to happen.
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I can definitely see this new Uberti system getting someone hurt because the way it's made I can just see it gumming up inside the hammer and not letting the firing pin retract. Generally when others fail the guns just don't fire but this new design is an accident waiting to happen.
Cliff hit the nail on the flat part. This is why I asked about this in the first place. Uberti's new "safety" doesn't look all that safe to me.
Just sayin',
Dave
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A CAVIAT (or two): I don't like Rugers. I didn't like Rugers when I was still in business. I digress. There was a school of thought at one time .... one should do away with the Xfir Bar and add a Half Cock. This was done to provide a "catch" to prevent the speed burners in CAS from missing full cock and having to go "round the world" to pick up the unfired round. It worked ....... sorta.
First time I saw one of those guns I like'd to crapped my drawers. It (the half cock) wasn't a Half Cock Notch, it was a half cock LEDGE just like the full cock ledge. Were one loading away and spinning the cylinder to check for hight primers (very popular and flashy thing) and touched the trigger the hammer would fall (remember?? No Xfir Bar) and folks really thought that was OK.
I don't actually know how the Ruger mechanics are doing the deed this days (I haven't looked) and I don't much care (Remember?? I don't like Rugers) as I'm not really interested. No place to put the Caps.
So .... as above, and in partial response to Bibbyman, it is all too true any mechanical "system" devised by any overpaid engineers, can be defeated by determined individuals. Also, mechanical systems are also prone to failure. Murphy's Law ..... remember!!! Any in designed in mechanical safety requires one should use it. The Mechanically devised safety I like best is either a 10 stop 5 shot R & D type conversion cylinder or a 12 stop Colt pattern cylinder. Either must be mechanically engaged. Without design mechanical intervention, hammer down on empty chamber is the biz.
We must however, remain ever vigilant. It is a known factor, there is absolutely NO mechanical safety system, ever devised my man, that cannot be defeated by a determined IDIOT. so there.
BRAVO! ;D
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Someday, just an experiment, take 6 fired (empty) cartridge cases and fit them into your shooter. Carefully lower the hammer (one having a firing pin, just like the old days) and rest the firing pin between two cartridge rims. Works in a pinch for "must load six" situations and for those diminutive "5-shooters" kept in the top drawer. Use primed, but empty cases if you feel need to try some drop testing.
Slim
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;D Hi Slim ;D
How are ya?? Winter has arrived in the Great North East. It Sux.
Absolutely. When I was of a mind to carry and play with Suppository Shooters, my common method for carrying "6 up" was to simply lower the hammer with the firing pin between two case rims. It works a treat. Correctly timed, the gun will come right into battery when cocked. I don't consider it a safety hazard. With the firing pin between rims, you may, if desired, wail on the hammer with a Ball Peen or Drop Test it all you want. You'll just ruin a perfectly good hammer/firing pin.
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Hello CM,
Midwest has chilled a might (too much & too fast). I'm looking forward to an early spring...January 1st works for me ;D