CAS City Forum Hall & CAS-L

CAS TOPICS => The Powder Room - CAS reloading => Topic started by: MikeM. on October 01, 2018, 12:40:00 pm

Title: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on October 01, 2018, 12:40:00 pm
Does anybody have one of the old Ideal loading tools in 44wcf with the bullet mold on it that they would sell? I am looking for one that is in nice shape because I want to do living history type demos with it.
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: pony express on October 02, 2018, 06:00:16 pm
Don't have one-they show up on E-bay regularly, although for 44-40 specifically you may have to search some.
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on October 03, 2018, 06:26:24 pm
Ok, I found a tool!! Now, can somebody tell me a good cowboy load that uses smokeless powder instead of black powder?? Please recommend powder , powder load, and bullet ...... Thanks!!!
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: scrubby2009 on October 04, 2018, 11:41:35 pm
Well, it's not "cowboy" per say, but my personal smokeless favorite is Alliant '2400' powder, 15.3grains or so, under a Bear Creek 200gr RNFP.
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Chance on October 05, 2018, 02:53:41 am
200gr RNFP backed by 8 grains of Unique.


Chance
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: scrubby2009 on October 05, 2018, 08:41:17 am
Saw this and thought of your original pst, you got something in this flavor?  https://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-IDEAL-RELOADING-TOOL-44-40-W-ORG-BOX-NICE-PART-OF-COLLECTION-6-OF-9/312254510482?hash=item48b3d1b592:g:BGYAAOSwa9BbtMB2
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: reno on October 06, 2018, 08:06:14 am
205 gr. lead RNFP  sizied .427 dia. SPG Lubed with 5.8 gr. Trail Boss.

Reno
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on October 07, 2018, 10:11:21 pm
Thanks guys!!
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on October 20, 2018, 11:38:53 am
What unique are you talking about? Red dot, green dot???
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 20, 2018, 01:38:10 pm

Aummmmm.  MikeM.,,,

Just what is your experience level reloading??  Unique is ..... Unique.  Red Dot and Green Dot are completely different powder formulations and do NOT NECESSARILY LOAD THE SAME.

Do you have a GOOD reloading MANUEL???  Sounds like you really need one.
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on October 20, 2018, 01:46:30 pm
Yes I know very little about it. I was just told that there was different types of Unique powder and I needed to find out which one to use. Didn’t mean to offend anyone by asking lol
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on October 20, 2018, 01:48:50 pm
Is there a manual for the weaker “cowboy” loads??
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on October 20, 2018, 03:16:17 pm
Just came from the gun shop and I see what you are saying, Unique is definitely its own animal........ learned something
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 20, 2018, 05:42:48 pm
My Good Mike -

DO NOT rely on anyone's "youtube" howto's.

if you follow youtube advice and hurt or kill yourself (or others) the youtubers
not only don't care, but will deny any responsiblity.

From your questions and comments, it is clear that BEFORE
you buy anything else, and BEFORE you try to load any rounds you should
buy a good reloading manual. I can highly recommend the Lyman and the Lee
manuals. Lyman and Lee include loads for cast lead bullets where many other manuals do not

https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-50th-Edition-Reloading-Manual/dp/B01N76GD2F
https://www.amazon.com/C-Kerman-Outdoor-Precision-Reloading/dp/B000N8OKAU

and please also look into the CAS City links below which are pinned in "The Powder Room"
foryour convenience.
    
Beginner's Guide to Reloading for CAS
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,55347.0.html

Reloading Resources - Link Guide
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,5589.0.html

I realize it is a lot of reading, but please read all the above topics and read
the guide parts of the manuals thoroughly. Loading cartridges is no place for
shortcuts or "easy". The manuals will help you learn about different powders, burn rates,
pressures, etc.

you do not want to have this:

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/blow-up.jpg)

(http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowup_images/blown_bisley.jpg)

yhs
prof marvel
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on October 20, 2018, 06:31:48 pm
Oh I will, I just wanted to see what other guys have had good results with.
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 20, 2018, 10:39:16 pm
Oh I will, I just wanted to see what other guys have had good results with.


Here you go, Mike -
click on the link and you will get a google search of the CAS City discussions for "44-40 loads"

Magic Link of 44-40 load discussion (https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=44-40+loads&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cascity.com%2Fforumhall%2F&as_occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=)

click away and enjoy

yhs
prof marvel
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Bunk on October 21, 2018, 09:11:39 am
I always tell any one interested in reloading is first get a good manual and read it as if your life depended on it because it does.
Information promulgated by Ol' Joe Bagadougnuts, unless he owns a complete ballistics lab with pressure guns and chronographs, is toilet paper and should be viewed as such.
I know what works for ME using smokes-somewhat-less powder and it is data taken from reputable loading manuals. I have been reloading for over 50 years but I still LOOK IT UP when trying a new bullet or powder combination.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 21, 2018, 09:32:40 am

That's why I asked.  THE very first step in reloading or loading is the BOOK.  Get the BOOK.  READ the BOOK.  Never accept as gospel the load information provided by "others."  Good chance they know less than you do.  Or, are actually stupid as they don't and haven't asked questions.

When you start playing these games, making your own ammunition, etc., Kindly remember your playing with EXPLOSIVES.  Things can get nasty really really quick.  In these games, there is no such thing as a stupid question so don't be afraid to ask.  Around here, we all try our best to help as much as we can.
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on October 21, 2018, 01:09:44 pm
Ok thanks guys
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 21, 2018, 03:56:59 pm

MikeM,

Remembering ... I Believe ... your comment about doing "living History" demonstrations, you should be aware, those "old" hand loading tools were intended for loading Black Powder.  Black Powder is very forgiving of errors.  For all practical purposes, you can't get enough 2 or 3f BP in a cartridge to blow up a SA revolver.  Smokeless on the other hand .... is very UNFORGIVING.  IF you screw up with Smokeless, I refer you to the photographs provided by the good Professor Marvel.

We often see You Boob "heroes" whom try to make a U-Boob featurette and it's obvious our "Hero" is clueless.  Before you get in front of and audience, I would suggest an amount of practice with your tools.  Say, around 500 or so rounds.  If you can't do it in your sleep in a dark room with someone screaming in your ear, your not really ready for "Prime Time."

Give some serious thought to planning for your plan.  The best plan only survives to the first shot.  Having a half loaded round ignite in front of a discerning audience will NOT enhance your image.
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 21, 2018, 04:45:26 pm
Ah yes, the "living history" part...


Before you get in front of and audience, I would suggest an amount of practice with your tools.  Say, around 500 or so rounds.  If you can't do it in your sleep in a dark room with someone screaming in your ear, your not really ready for "Prime Time."

Give some serious thought to planning for your plan.  The best plan only survives to the first shot.  Having a half loaded round ignite in front of a discerning audience will NOT enhance your image.

Coffin makes an excellent point.

Loading cartridges is not an activity in which anyone can afford to be distracted.

I cannot count the number of times that we read about a member "getting distracted" whilst reloading...
by a spouse, a pet, the phone, or just "going mechanical" whilst watching TV ....
then realizing they made a mistake....

many folks catch it at the moment or  close after... and have to dissassemble many rounds.
some folks don't catch it until a round goes ffffffuut ...   or "pip" instead of bang. at least those are not KABOOM moments!.

I have done living history blacksmithing, and have made many many mistakes whilst talking to visitors... just getting distracted.

I have made the mistake of talking to people when loading my Hawken On The Line at a rondesvous.... and dryballed it.
(dryball: to load a muzzleloading rifle without powder, leading to having to stop and get tools to pull the ball and patch)
it is soooooo easy to get distracted ....

then there is the further issue of having open containers of powder and primers "too close" to the public,
who may be  smoking,  or drinking or doing other stupid things (kids playing with fire, trying to deliberately mess things up "as a prank" ....       )

trust me on this one, as a demo blacksmith, I have had wierd crap done to me and my anvil, my tongs, my hammer and the fire in my forge . And I have had stupid people try to pick up "black hot" steel even after being told "it's hot" and not to touch anything.
I even had finished knife blade stolen off the bench. Turn your back and people do wierd sheisse .

Thus, if demonstrating loading, I might suggest that you consider

faking it.

just in front of people, just for demonstration.
old crappy demo brass ( I like to stain them black with cold blue for easy ID )
dead (or previously fired) primers
fake powder - fake BP would be great, just use a scoop to fill a case with "black powder" ....
slightly undersized bullets that can be easily pulled, and not crimped in.

one can have a box of "real" previously loaded rounds and at the same time (somewhere out of reach)
one could safely "reload" the same 15 demo rounds over and over and over ...
whilst lecturing the Great Unwashed on the topic without having to worrying about it.

one can then use a "bullet pulling hammer" to dissassemble everything afterward as needed.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/685703/rcbs-powr-pull-impact-bullet-puller-kit

yhs
prof marvel
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: greyhawk on October 21, 2018, 06:14:28 pm
Yes I know very little about it. I was just told that there was different types of Unique powder and I needed to find out which one to use. Didn’t mean to offend anyone by asking lol

Mike - you not offending anyone - we just worry about you blowin your head off - and if you doin living history demos without proper experience you just might (very likely) do hospital type damage to some bystander(s) as well - stick to your area od expertise (whatever it is)
be safe
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on October 21, 2018, 07:31:17 pm
I understand guys and will probably do triple 7 or pyrodex powder substitute . I’m not totally ignorant to guns and things that go boom. I am a 22 year Army Infantry veteran with multiple deployments so I have heard a lot of BIG booms and seen the aftermath of them too . Been gun collecting since I was 16 years old and understand the ins and outs but have just now gotten interested in reloading but only historical reloading for my 73 Winchester , which probably wouldn’t handle a hot loaded round anyway.
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Slamfire on October 21, 2018, 09:58:26 pm
 Hey Mike ,, it's just everyone is concerned by the questions you have asked ,, I know you have seen & fired a lot of " ready made rounds ." RELOADING , new game ( for lack of a better word ) ," concern is a form of respect and yes even love for our fellow reloader's " . Don't ever stop asking question's ,, it s added insurance. Do the folk's here ever get tired of answering ,,NO , or the pages would be blank. " stay the course ".

  smoke'm if y'a got'm ,, Hootmix .
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 22, 2018, 09:32:44 am

Hi again Mike,


Just for your edification, BOTH of your choices as substitute for BP SUCK!!  Pyrodex is a rusting Agent that just happens to Burn.  777 is about 15 - 20% MORE potent than real BP.  You would be better off using real BP than those two Subs.

I thank you and Applaud your service.  I'm a 26 Year Veteran.  Nothing you did on AD prepared you for reloading.  New Game.  New Book,  Think of it like training for a new MOS you've never done.  Take your time.
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Bunk on October 22, 2018, 01:48:56 pm
Mike,
Let me put in my two cents worth on reloading.
First and foremost get a good reloading manual and read all of it. I cut my reloading teeth on the Phil Sharp book A Complete Guide to Reloading which is unfortunately ot of print and the powders used are also long gone, but the how to and how it works and how it is made are still excellent information.
Lyman makes a good book because there is a lot of lead bullet information.
Sorry, but loading data from some one who is not equipped with a ballistic lab is worthless and possibly dangerous. Take those loads with a grain of salt and and check suggested loads with  a loading manual.
Good luck and have fun
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 22, 2018, 02:57:27 pm
I used to say Pyrodex and 777 were ok if sufficient cleaning was done.

I have changed my mind about 777 , and updated the sticky on the Powder room:

update:

hogden changed their site structure, the old links are no longer valid, and they have made it increasingly more difficult
to find the SDS sheets -
here is a new link for pyrodex

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-pyrodex-sds-new.pdf

and triple 7

2017:
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/triple-seven-sds-sheet-2017.pdf

snip---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Section 3:  Composition/information on ingregients
Component                       CAS-Number       Weight %
Charcoal                                16291-96-6      10%
Sodium Benzoate                    532-32-1       10%
Potassium Nitrate                 7757-79-1       30%
Potassium Perchlorate        7778-74-7       30%
Dicyaniamide                         461-58-5         10%
Dextrin                                     9004-53-9       10%

Note:  Other ingredients are trade secrets, but can be disclosed per 29CFR1910.1200(i)

Section 4:  First-aid measures
Ingestion:
* if vomiting occurs, turn patient on side to maintain open airway.  Do not induce vomiting.
   contact a Poison control center for advice on treatment, if unsure.
Eye Contact:
* flush eye with water for at least 15 minutes.

Section 5:  Fire-fighting measures
Extinguishing media:
* For unattended fire prevention, water can be used to disburse burning Triple Seven®.  Triple Seven® has
its own oxygen supply; flame smothering techniques are ineffective.  Water may be used on unburnt Triple
Seven® to retard further spread of fire.

Special Procedures:
* Triple Seven® is extremely flammable and may deflagrate.  Get away and evacuate the area.
Unusual Hazards:
* As with any pyrotechnic, if under confinement or piled in moderate quantities, Triple Seven® can explode.  
Toxic fumes, such as sulfur dioxide are emitted while burning.
Inhalation;
* remove patient from area to fresh air.
Skin Contact:
* wash the affected area with copius amounts of water.  Some persons may be sensitive to p
endsnip---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aug 2018:
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-pyrodex-sds-new.pdf

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-tripleseven-sds-new.pdf

-------
notice that in 2018 they changed the list to be deliberately vague -
 ie: both potassium nitrate and potassium perchlorate are listed as *15-40%  ...

*In accordance with paragraph (i) of the OSHA Hazard Communication Standard (29 CFR 1910.1200) ,
the specific chemical identity or exact wieght % has been withheld as a trade secret.
--------

Worse, they have deliberately left out  Dextrin and Dicyaniamide   in the latest triple 7 SDS "as a trade secret".
I call bull.
 they don't really have that  many competitors, and the "full disclosure" has been published since  before year 2000.

the 10% Dicyaniamide is an important ommission.
I myself am wondering what it does when burned.
I did my best with reading the chemistry tomes on
- Dicyaniamide
- Dicyandiamide
- Cyanoguanidine
- guanidine
- calcium cyanamide
and more
and came away more confused. Now I remember why I nearly failed chemistry
 

I am both intrigued and dismayed at the level of obfuscation.
Makes one wonder what they are trying to hide, and why.
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on October 23, 2018, 05:39:57 pm
Ok real black powder it will be then. I read that the Swiss powder is best, any truth to that??
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Bunk on October 23, 2018, 09:56:48 pm
Mike M
Swiss is good stuff, a bit pricey but high quality. If you can't get real black powder I would recommend American Pioneer Powder, Jim Shockeys Gold, or BlackMZ all being the same stuff. It is a completely different formulation that the "P" stuff and the residue is about like real black powder and easier to clean. Friend Coffinmaker got me on it and I like it and use it in my .44-40 and snubby percussion revolvers.  Presently on the bench are a bunch of primed empty 12gauge shells to be loaded with APP and we will see how that goes.
Unlike Black Powder it is compatible with petroleum lubes a handy side note.
Welcome to the dark side have fun make smoke.
Yr Obt' Svt'
Bunk
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 24, 2018, 12:17:05 am
Mike M
Swiss is good stuff, a bit pricey but high quality. If you can't get real black powder I would recommend American Pioneer Powder, Jim Shockeys Gold, or BlackMZ all being the same stuff. It is a completely different formulation that the "P" stuff and the residue is about like real black powder and easier to clean. Friend Coffinmaker got me on it and I like it and use it in my .44-40 and snubby percussion revolvers.  Presently on the bench are a bunch of primed empty 12gauge shells to be loaded with APP and we will see how that goes.
Unlike Black Powder it is compatible with petroleum lubes a handy side note.
Welcome to the dark side have fun make smoke.
Yr Obt' Svt'
Bunk

not only that but you can get BlackMZ at Sportsmans Warehouse for $10 a bottle!

yhs
prof marvel
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Bunk on October 24, 2018, 11:35:31 am
Prtof. Marvel,
Unfortunately the only Sportsman Warehouse near me folded up several years ago.
Coffinmaker urged me to try APP in what ever wrapper it uses and was well satisfied with it.
But I mostly deal with Powder Inc. (shameless plug) and a stay with real Gun Powder.
My shooting is slowing down due to old age and general debility but the range behind my house gets plenty of work out.
And yes I would as soon shoot stainless steel balls and clean with battery acid as use the "P" stuff.
From my brown shoe army days cleaning rifles after those chlorate primers gave me enough of that racket to last a lifetime.
Thank you Winchester for developing those "Staynless" primers and caps.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on October 27, 2018, 01:51:02 pm
Ok guys , I’m looking at die sets and am wondering if I need the regular RCBS 44-40 dies, RCBS Cowboy dies, or Hornady Cowboy dies??   Any opinions on this ??
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: scrubby2009 on October 29, 2018, 11:57:11 pm
I use the plain RCBS dies and a Lee crimp die when assembling smokeless loads. Trailboss and real Black get full cases, so I don't "extra step" with the crimp on those. All under Bear Creek moly-lubed castings.
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on November 03, 2018, 04:08:13 pm
Ok guys , I just wanted to do a follow up post on my progress. Turns out that 8gr of Unique and a 200gr .427 fnfp lead ACME bullet loaded in my Winchester 1882 loading tool is very accurate out of my Uberti/ Cimarron 1873 SRC!!!!
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on November 04, 2018, 01:17:07 pm
Filled the magazine tube on my rifle full and got some telescoping on a few rounds. Do you guys think it would help if I went to a .430 bullet??
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Coal Creek Griff on November 04, 2018, 04:33:40 pm
This is a common problem, generally related to neck sizing and crimp.  The solution is sometimes complicated, but it has been discussed in these pages before.  I don't believe that a larger bullet size will be the solution for you.

CC Griff
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: pony express on November 04, 2018, 06:47:58 pm
Does the bullet you are using have a crimp groove? And since you are using the vintage tool, how tight does the bullet fit into the case neck, and does it produce a good crimp?

Also, loading with Black Powder will prevent telescoping, since the bullet can't go down with the powder already under compression(which was probably how your loading tool was meant to be used)
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on November 04, 2018, 07:33:02 pm
I think it produced a pretty decent crimp since this only happened to a couple of rounds. The bullets go into the neck really easily and this is why I thought I would try the .430 ones and see if they are tighter. That makes sense on the black powder by the way.....I’m going to give that a try too. Thanks Guys
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: pony express on November 04, 2018, 09:34:20 pm
OK, , I've never used one of the vintage tools like you're using, so maybe I have it wrong....but, the way I understand them, they don't resize a case the way a modern die set does, where you first size the case down , then expand to just let the bullet seat. Don't they just basically seat  bullet, crimp, and resize all in one operation? It seems like, if that's the case, then you'll never really get the same neck tension as a modern set, but primarily depend on a strong crimp to hold everything together.


Maybe when using that tool, you'll have to visually check each one for a good crimp, and maybe try pushing the bullet against something, just to check.
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on November 04, 2018, 09:44:14 pm
Exactly, yes that’s what im thinking too. I plan to use modern dies most of the time but thought it would be neat to use this old tool a little too.
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on November 05, 2018, 06:56:12 am
need a couple of questions on black powder answered before I try to use it. First, is black powder measured by weight like my smokeless or by volume like my cap and ball gun?? Second, FF or FFF ?? Third, somebody recommend a load they have had good luck with (using a 200gr bullet),,,,,
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: Professor Marvel on November 05, 2018, 07:27:53 pm
need a couple of questions on black powder answered before I try to use it. First, is black powder measured by weight like my smokeless or by volume like my cap and ball gun??

by volume
One can buy a scoop. or make one from a cutdown cartridge case and a piece of heavy wire.
very historical, that.

measure as much as will fit under the bullet.

either FF or 3F your choice.

hope this helps
prf mvl
Title: Re: Looking for a Loading Tool
Post by: MikeM. on November 05, 2018, 08:09:58 pm
Couldn’t I use my powder measure for my cap and ball pistol or maybe even make a spout for my powder flask ??