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CAS TOPICS => The Powder Room - CAS reloading => Topic started by: Coffinmaker on June 12, 2018, 04:40:04 pm

Title: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Coffinmaker on June 12, 2018, 04:40:04 pm

Here we go again Boys and Girls.  Just perusing the latest Guns of The Old West.  Our marvelous chief scribe as shown ignorance in his obviously learned presentation.  In his story about the 1871/72 Open Top, he proclaims "In 1873, Colt added the .45 Long Colt to the Peacemaker's chamberings." 

I again submit for your consideration, another scribe (the was a previous one) ignorantly proclaiming the .45 "Long" Colt cartridge.  There never was, Never has been a .45 Long Colt.  The Cartridge is, was, always will be "45 Colt."  PERIOD. 

Not that I'm at all anal about this issue.  Oh, and chamberings is not a proper work either.  So There!!
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Dave T on June 12, 2018, 08:58:43 pm
I agree but I've had so many people argue with me about it over the years I've given up. Let them wallow in their ignorance! (smile)

Dave
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Sagebrush Burns on June 12, 2018, 10:01:10 pm
As long as we're picking it apart:  the Peacemaker was introduced in 1873 chambered in the 45 Colt cartridge.  It was not "added".
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Chance on June 13, 2018, 01:40:28 am
It's one of my pet hates too, but last time I looked at the Colt website they were advertising the SAA in ".45LC" calibre.  ???

Chance
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Major 2 on June 13, 2018, 07:09:46 am
It's one of those "disambiguation's" , that has morphed itself to become acceptable mainstream slang .

It allowed for the uniformed to differentiate between  45 Colt  & 45 ACP and less degree 45 Schofield. 

Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Coffinmaker on June 13, 2018, 10:09:43 am

Same Ignoramus also wrote the Uberti Open Top was chambered in 44-40    :o   Last I checked, Neither Colt in the original guns, nor Uberti in the reproduction EVER chambered in 44-40.  Annoying when they get it SO wrong.  However:

Life is Short .... Eat Desert First   8)
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on June 13, 2018, 10:11:57 am
I thought that the first prototype/s of the '73 SAA was/were made in the existing army pistol round, the .44 Colt/Martin? It was almost immediately changed to .45 as the Army had just decided to seek commonality of ammunition based on .45 caliber.

P.S: Correction! The first PROTOTYPES for the 1872 tests were in .44 American. .45 Colt was specified for adoption.
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Professor Marvel on June 13, 2018, 02:11:23 pm
It's one of those "disambiguation's" , that has morphed itself to become acceptable mainstream slang .

It allowed for the uniformed to differentiate between  45 Colt  & 45 ACP and less degree 45 Schofield. 



Could it be, that it is like the difference between
Pig
And
Long Pig?

Yhs
Prof politically incorrect and sometimes grotesque Marvel
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Mogorilla on June 14, 2018, 11:39:01 am
Hmmm Long pig with a side of soylent green.   Tasty
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Major 2 on June 14, 2018, 04:25:24 pm
Did you forget... what soylent green turned out to be ?

as I recall it was filet of Edward G. Robinson   :o
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Roscoe on June 15, 2018, 09:48:20 am
Gun makers have also decided that "pistol" is as opposed to "revolver", i.e. that a revolver is not a pistol. That is a practical distinction, whereas the word "long" in Long Colt adds nothing.
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: FriscoCounty on June 16, 2018, 10:56:21 am
It's one of those "disambiguation's" , that has morphed itself to become acceptable mainstream slang .

It allowed for the uniformed to differentiate between  45 Colt  & 45 ACP and less degree 45 Schofield. 



References to .45 Long Colt appeared before the introduction of the .45 ACP.  The term was sporadically used by quartermasters in the late 1870s and early 1880s to differentiate between full length Colt .45 cartridges and the dual use .45 Colt/Schofield cartridge until stocks of the full length cartridge were used up. 

The Franklin Arsenal initially produced full length .45 Colt cartridges loaded with a 250gr bullet and 30gr of BP.  It stopped manufacturing them in August 1874.  Beginning in early 1875 it began issuing the "Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45".  This was a compromise cartridge that would chamber in both the Colt M1873 and the S&W #3 (Schofield).  It has an OL 0.19" shorter than the Colt, with a smaller rim than the .45 Schofield cartridge, and was loaded with a 203gr RNFP bullet and 28gr BP. 
 
The "Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45" was originally a Berdan primed cartridge. In 1882 it was converted to Boxer priming and was superseded in 1887 by the M1887 ball cartridge (also a dual use cartridge). 

Of note, the Colt .45 cartridge used in the M1873 field trials used a load of 40gr BP behind a 255 gr bullet.

Colt's Revolver .45 cartridge:
(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c13cd363a55f7249760fc89ccbb1ede0)

Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45
(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-81b955a4199328edd0e81d6ff8972677)

Ref:

Hackley, Woodin and Scranton, “History of Modern U. S. Military Small Arms Ammunition” Volume 1

McChristian, "THe U.S. Army in the West, 1870-1880 Uniforms, Weapons, and Equipment"

http://www.oldammo.com/november14.htm (http://www.oldammo.com/november14.htm)
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: major on June 16, 2018, 06:56:03 pm
Frisco
Are thoes copper cartridges rime fire or center fire?
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Coffinmaker on June 17, 2018, 11:53:00 am

Sir Charles, the "PROTOTYPES for the 1872" should read for the "1873".  Me Thinks  ::)
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: FriscoCounty on July 02, 2018, 09:32:51 am
Frisco
Are thoes copper cartridges rime fire or center fire?

Center-fire, probably Benet primed.  Early cartridges were Benet primed, it was then switched to Berdan, and then, finally, to Boxer.  Also, the original cartridges were copper, not brass.    

Benet cartridges were internally primed:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Benet_Primer.jpg)

(http://www.oldammo.com/50_45Carb.JPG)
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: FriscoCounty on July 02, 2018, 09:38:26 am
Sir Charles, the "PROTOTYPES for the 1872" should read for the "1873".  Me Thinks  ::)

The tests were in 1872.  In fact, Colt's first offering was the 1872 open top.  The Army came back and required a top strap.
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on July 02, 2018, 11:54:41 am
Not being "Murikan" I don't claim to be an authority, but I've seen references to tests in 1872 and 1873. By the 1873 tests, the .45 in the SAA was tested.
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: greenjoytj on August 11, 2018, 07:40:02 am
Gun makers have also decided that "pistol" is as opposed to "revolver", i.e. that a revolver is not a pistol. That is a practical distinction, whereas the word "long" in Long Colt adds nothing.

Wrong, The “L” does add something.  It adds LENGHT to help differentiate one a .45” cartridge from another, that may or may not fit your revolver.   
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Roscoe on August 13, 2018, 12:35:51 pm
Wrong, The “L” does add something.  It adds LENGHT to help differentiate one a .45” cartridge from another, that may or may not fit your revolver.   
Tell that to Coffinmaker. the OP. I think you cite the same misinformation that he is trying to address.
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Coffinmaker on August 13, 2018, 01:54:10 pm

greenjoytj,

To quote greenjoytj .... "WRONG"   There is no "Length" to differentiate (2 dollar wurd).  .45 Colt is just that.  .45 Colt.  PERIOD.  Any and ALL "other" 45 caliber cartridges have their own individual name.  To illustrate ... ACP,  45 Auto Rim, .45 Government, .45 Schofield, Cowboy 45 Special.  There are no 45 Colt Short Cartridges.  There are no 45 Colt Long Cartridges.  There are only 45 Colt.  PERIOD.

Gonna poke yer finger in someone's eye .... best make sure yer right first.
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Reverend P. Babcock Chase on August 13, 2018, 03:06:45 pm
Thank you, Coffinmaker. You are absolutely right, but I fear that few will heed the wisdom of your explanation.

Reverend Chase
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Abilene on August 13, 2018, 04:09:33 pm
How about .38 Long Colt ???   :D
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Professor Marvel on August 13, 2018, 06:05:45 pm
How about .38 Long Colt ???   :D

Ah My Dear Abilene you are a card!

yhs
prof mumbles
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Grapeshot on February 12, 2019, 09:14:10 pm
Could it be, that it is like the difference between
Pig
And
Long Pig?

Yhs
Prof politically incorrect and sometimes grotesque Marvel


Pig: Four legged omnivore known to eat everything in its way, including dead mammals, including their own offspring.  Long Pig:  Term used by cannibals to describe humans used for their food. a.k.a. Long Pork.  (Humans, the other White Meat)
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Jeremiah Jones on February 13, 2019, 09:00:39 am
Coffinmaker, this is the west.  When the legend becomes reality, you print the legend.
.45 Long Colt, it is!
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Arizona Trooper on February 13, 2019, 04:49:34 pm
Well, if you want to get picky on 'Pistol' vs. 'Revolver'..... Back when the distinction got started, a Pistol was an 1842 Aston/Johnson muzzleloading handgun, or an M-1836 flinter, or another of that sort. A Revolver was a Colt M-1851.   
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Trailrider on February 13, 2019, 05:27:05 pm
In point of fact there WERE cartridges advertised as ".45 Long Colt", in the late 19th or early 20th Centuries.  While I can't locate the photos of the boxes, I have seen them.  IIRC, this came about when the double-action swingout cylinders came about.  The original rims on the .45 Colt's were too narrow to catch the star ejector, and the ammo companies enlarged them, and began advertising them as ".45 Long Colt".  There "never was" a cartridge called ".45 Schofield" either. The correct term was ".45 Revolver Ball".  It was intended to fit either the Colt's Single Action Army revolver or the Schofield. The terms ".45 Long Colt" and ".45 Schofield" are modern-day appelations intended to avoid confusion. The term "pistol" is now generally used to describe a semi-automatic handgun. In the Old Days, the term for a gun with a revolving cylinder was "revolving pistol".  Likewise, when it comes to terminology to describe different variations of a basic gun, we use modern terms like, "Second generation Colt".  But, I doubt that Colt's uses that term. Likewise, I doubt Winchester has officially differentiated between a "Pre-64 Model 70 and "Post-64" rifles.  Just modern conveniences.

Now, you may flame when you are ready, folks!  ;)
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Bunk on February 13, 2019, 06:08:32 pm
Trail Rider is correct about those of button head .45 Colt cases. They are almost rimless. I found a box full of those old cases, and the only way I could load them is to either set up my old Pacafic "C" press that I use  years ago ot my Ideal Tong tool because they will not work in a modern "more rimmed" shell holder. I lookd at a lot of them and they are not marked "Long Colt". I found a box of brand new unfired cases and they were marked ".45 Colt" on the original Winchester factory box.
That "long Colt" thing just drives crazy(er) and any so called gun writer should know better.
At leeast IMHO
Bunk
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Abilene on February 13, 2019, 06:39:55 pm
At least the caliber markings on the guns all say 45 Colt, at least that I have noticed.
Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: Coffinmaker on February 14, 2019, 11:18:11 am

Unfortunately ...... There is often a WIDE disconnect between the advertising staff and the engineering staff.  There is also an awful lot of PARROT(ing) that goes on.  Sort of a "If so and so says it .. it must be true" sort of thing.  Some nationally known Scribe says something totally out of the blue and BANG is repeated around the world as gospel.  Even if their comment contains not one second of research.

An Ex is a has-been and a Spert is merely a drip under pressure.

After all, Elmer Kieth blew up several guns before giving birth to the 44 Manglem.

Title: Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
Post by: DeaconKC on May 23, 2019, 01:25:51 pm
Coffinmaker, I really enjoyed your explanation, thanks. Several of our arms and ammunition makers should share some blame as well for horrible naming conventions. Like the .44s, not since the .44 Russian have we had true .44s, they are .43s. And my beloved .38WCF, should be the .40WCF [and wouldn't that .40-40 name have sounded nice]. And lest we forget the brain bleeds caused by clip vs. magazine. Or how the first Walkers were referred to as horse pistols?

I think I need to switch to Decaf...