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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: Major 2 on July 08, 2017, 12:26:08 pm

Title: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Major 2 on July 08, 2017, 12:26:08 pm
research ...but I want ask a few questions about the Mosin Nagant

I have a Nagant Pistol & just acquired a Original S&W Russian

the 91/30 Mosin Nagant ....Hex receiver is correct for GAF ...yes ?

Is there a load, that will NOT turn a Shoulder into mush ? and still be good to shoot ?

Anything, on a Hex receiver gun that should not be legal GAF.

I ask because there is a very nice factory referb at my FFL ...may be a bit over priced

So....what are they going for ?   I believe it is a TULA  ( Star)  
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: pony express on July 08, 2017, 03:47:15 pm
M-2, the 91-30 with hex receiver is considered a replacement for the "Dragoon" model M-91, and is fine for GAF, as well as the original M-91 long rifle. For GAF match use, a proper size cast bullet with 10-12 grains of Trail Boss should work fine. I say proper size, because bore dimensions can vary some. I haven't worked much on jacketed loads for them(yet), but starting loads from the manuals should be ok. Also, look on the Hodgeon website for instructions for downloading H4895, they have done research on loading as low as 60% of max loads with it, and still performing well. But that's only H4895, NOT IMR4895.

Can't help on current prices, I've got 2 M-91 long rifles(Remington and New England Westinghouse) that were about $125 and 200,but that was yeaaaaarrrsss ago.
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Major 2 on July 08, 2017, 05:13:01 pm
Thanks PE

This a very clean refurb....looks new    I did notice the butt has a replace toe* , it has been mitered in ( not the reglued chunk )
straight butt joint ( no pun intended  :) ) then the stock refinished
I'm not sure what species wood the stock is,  has graining like yellow pine  ??? very prominent.

It's hang tag say's  $395**.  I think it will go for less

* EDIT   looks like this is common....I see the same repair ?  on many gun featured on UTube

**  looking on GB this a ballpark price ...
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Pitspitr on July 09, 2017, 09:16:51 am
Sounds like a good rifle. Hopefully Drydock will chime in as he and his son shoot Mosins a lot.
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Major 2 on July 09, 2017, 10:16:55 am
I hope so...


I think it is a Laminated stock.... differently a  TULA  ..I missed recording the date  ::)

Any reason the Laminated stock would preclude GAF use ?

Hex receiver

Interesting the grain aligns,  still there is that what appears to be a straight joint line ....

Shop is closed Sun. & Mon.  I'll have to look again
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on July 09, 2017, 11:35:49 am
That is how the stock came from the factory, the toe splice is common, it is a laminated stock. And that is a GAF legal rifle.  We use 12 grains of Trail Boss beneath the Lee 312-155 for a dandy GAF load.  40 grains IMR 4064 or 4166 under a 150 grain 311 spire point flat base works well for long range.

That is ballpark for a laminated stock 91/30.  Laminated is around +75-100 over a standard hardwood stock. Hex is +25. Bore condition determines a lot. If its a bright shiny bore its a decent deal as it stands.

Bayonets available at  https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/ltc-default.asp   Because you have to have a bayonet.  Right?
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on July 09, 2017, 12:07:22 pm
http://www.mosinnagant.net/

http://7.62x54r.net/

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/How-Users-Of-One-Rifle-See-Themselves-And-Others.jpg

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on July 10, 2017, 04:43:20 pm
Be happy to post how to load the Nagant revolver round if interested.  Quite easy really.
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Major 2 on July 10, 2017, 05:30:29 pm
Sure, like to read it

Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on July 10, 2017, 06:41:49 pm
I thought of this because I'm loading a box of these today.

Ennways:  Lee dies, PRVI brass.  The only special thing you need is a Winchester 25-35 sizing die.  I found a Lee one on Ebay.  BTW, Winchester is making a run of 25-35 94s for 2018.  Midway is stocking all these dies right now.  These dies will also size and load 32-20 cases in a conventional manner should you wish, but they work just fine making Gas Seal rounds with the addition of the 25-35 die.

Lee 311-100 mold.  I use this bullet for both the Nagant, and the Tokarev round.  Size to .309.  .310 or greater will not chamber.  But most any 308-314 lead pistol bullet will work if properly sized.  

These are steel dies, so you will need to lube the cases.

-Size and prime.

-I charge with 3 grains Alliant American Select.  This runs 921 fps out of my Nagants.  The cases drop out of the gun with a tap of the finger on the case mouth at the front of the cylinder.  DO NOT USE TRAIL BOSS!  Tempting, but the pressure curve of TB flares the case mouth, and you end up beating the cases out of the cylinder.  Faster powders like AS or Bullseye are a must.  I lube with beeswax/olive oil, or sometimes Liquid Alox. No leading with either.

-Seat the bullet with the nose flush with the case mouth.  The die provided will do this just fine, once properly adjusted.

-Now, you need to grind a tenth or so off the base of the 23-35 sizing die.  You are using the shoulder of the die to put a conical nose on the case mouth.  Not a whole lot, just enough to ensure reliable chambering when you cycle the action.  This gentle cone also greatly extends case life.

That's it.  I load these on a Lee 4 hole turret.
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Major 2 on July 11, 2017, 12:35:22 pm
Question arises...

PE wrote  ..."   proper size cast bullet with 10-12 grains of Trail Boss should work fine "


would a    .310  115 grain 32/20  on Mosin Nagant brass chamber ?

Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on July 11, 2017, 04:37:15 pm
It should.  If the magazine interrupter is working the Mosin action is not at all finicky about feeding. 

So you got it?
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Major 2 on July 11, 2017, 04:56:40 pm
Not yet..... they are closed Sun-Mon.,   I'm off Friday,  PTO 1st. chance I can go in,  armed with my new found research & help...

Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on July 11, 2017, 05:15:55 pm
Ah darnit, I figgered that's how you got the pictures!   ;D
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: pony express on July 11, 2017, 05:37:16 pm
The 32-20 bullet should work fine, but 10-12 gr Trailboss might exceed GAF velocities with the lighter bullet.
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Major 2 on July 11, 2017, 10:33:22 pm
OH ...

Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on July 11, 2017, 11:07:07 pm
I doubt it.  Going from 200 to 155 only netted me 80 fps or so.  Bet he'd still be well under 1500 fps  my 155s only run 1295. 
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: pony express on July 12, 2017, 04:46:45 pm
That's good to know, I don't have a chronograph, so I had no idea how fast my TB loads were actually going, beyond the fact that they were at least above the speed of sound.
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Major 2 on July 12, 2017, 07:12:44 pm
Dakota Ike suggested these

https://www.berrysmfg.com/item/bp-762x39-312-123gr-sp

Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on July 12, 2017, 07:31:32 pm
Well, you can't use them for GAF skirmish shooting, and you can't push them to Milspec velocities for long range either.

 I use these for jacketed bullet shooting in my Mosins and 303 guns: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/282179/speer-hot-cor-bullets-303-caliber-77mm-japanese-311-diameter-150-grain-spitzer-box-of-100

Most any .311-314 cast bullet will work for our Skirmish loads. https://missouribullet.com/

We do not allow jacketed or plated bullets on skirmish targets.  Only lead or lead with gas checks or powder coated.  Our long range targets are AR500, so full power jacketed loads may be used with them.

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=352&category=20&secondary=36&keywords=  this would be a good one and  easy on your shoulder.
 
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on July 12, 2017, 07:59:34 pm
https://www.midwayusa.com/s?targetLocation=%2F_%2FN-0%2B4294967208%3FNp%3D2%26Nr%3DAND%2528p_visible%253A1%252Ccustomertypeid%253A1%2529%26Nrpp%3D24%26Ns%3Dp_metric_sales_velocity%257C1%26Ntpc%3D1%26Ntpr%3D1

I wear one of these under my shirt these days.  Helps a lot!
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: pony express on July 12, 2017, 09:37:24 pm
M2,for our "long range", you could try working up a load with one of these:

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?targetLocation=%2F_%2FN-19785%2B4294940995%3FNp%3D2%26Nr%3DAND%2528p_visible%253A1%252Ccustomertypeid%253A1%2529%26Nrpp%3D24%26Ns%3Dp_metric_sales_velocity%257C1%26Ntpc%3D1%26Ntpr%3D1&userItemsPerPage=48

We only shoot to 300 yards, that's in 7.62X39 range, so a7.62X39 bullet at 23-2400fps should work, if they will shoot well from your particular rifle.
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Major 2 on July 13, 2017, 02:09:50 am
Well, you can't use them for GAF skirmish shooting, and you can't push them to Milspec velocities for long range either.

 I use these for jacketed bullet shooting in my Mosins and 303 guns: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/282179/speer-hot-cor-bullets-303-caliber-77mm-japanese-311-diameter-150-grain-spitzer-box-of-100

Most any .311-314 cast bullet will work for our Skirmish loads. https://missouribullet.com/

We do not allow jacketed or plated bullets on skirmish targets.  Only lead or lead with gas checks or powder coated.  Our long range targets are AR500, so full power jacketed loads may be used with them.

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=352&category=20&secondary=36&keywords=  this would be a good one and  easy on your shoulder.
 


Thanks...I'm  learning   

My reloading skills are in toddler stage,  one eye in the reloading manuals , one eye on the operation, and one eye toward KISS

Keep it Simple  ;) 

I'm Ok with BP , and I've embraced APP , .....  I have Trail Boss and I've have dabbled in Red Dot.... 

Slow,  fastidious , and careful .... I load a few at time.... 

Rotator cuff damage and Arthritis , tunes out any wish to shoot Milspec velocities .

What I need is (if I get the Mosin Nagant ) a mild recoil.... below legal 1500 FPS

I'm thinking 10 Grains TB , behind a .115- 123 grain   lead powder coated bullet.

 






Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on July 13, 2017, 09:12:23 am
The Trail boss loads are just what you want then.   In a full length rifle, even the 200 grain bullets kick like a .22.    If you have not yet, please read this:  https://web.archive.org/web/20080603022241/http://www.surplusrifle.com/articles2008/trailbosskiss/index.asp
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Major 2 on July 13, 2017, 09:28:29 am
Exactingly,  :) what I needed ...THANKKKKKK YOU !


I have a stash of these

32-20 Hi-Tek
.313 Diameter
120 Grain RNFP
Brinell 18
For Lever Guns
Hi-Tek 2-Extreme Coating
Price per box of 500
Price: $40.50
 
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Major 2 on July 14, 2017, 10:46:48 am
here is the skinny  ;D

HEX receiver 1934 date  mint & bright bore and no counter bore

A collector bought it in the box , 16 years ago never shot it , comes with bayonet, leather sling, oiler , tool , and leather ammo pouch.
I had it on hold, with $100 bill , had to go home to ye olde sock drawer stash for the balance.


Time & tide ... :-\

Owner showed up and took it off consignment ...decide to keep it , I guess
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on July 14, 2017, 05:37:12 pm
Well darn!   http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=Mosin+hex&BuyNowOnly=1&Sort=13&Tab=2
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on July 14, 2017, 05:43:30 pm
Was me, I'd get this one!  http://www.gunbroker.com/item/667802399
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: smoke on April 14, 2018, 11:29:45 am
Nice war time stock on that one.

FYI the original Mosins had a round receiver and flat rear sight.  The receiver was changed ot the hex due to ease of manufacturing.  You could always use it for GAF and claim it to be an early prototype. ;D  Although the early flat sight was different.
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on April 14, 2018, 01:06:09 pm
Do you have a source for that?  Everything I've seen and read says Hex recievers until 1933 or so, when they changed to round for ease of manufacture.  I've held a couple of 1892 dated rifles, both hex receiver.  It's a fascinating possibility.
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: smoke on April 14, 2018, 01:26:17 pm
I have read it on Gunboards in a number of different discussions.  I don't know if any production rifles were made with a round receiver pre-36.  36/37 is when the receivers were changed.  I think Tula transitioned in 36 and Izhevsk in 37 but I might have that backwards.

I will check my references on the earliest receivers being round and get back to you.
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on April 14, 2018, 02:22:57 pm
My son has my Lapin book on Mosins, I need to get that back!
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: pony express on April 14, 2018, 09:08:19 pm
That's backwards, Hex receivers were made up until the 1930's, then round was introduced. Round is easier to produce, just turn it on a lathe. Hex requires more machining.  All the Model 91s were hex, while the 91/30s were both hex and round. M-38s and M-44s, as well as Chinese T-53 were round.
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: smoke on April 14, 2018, 10:13:57 pm
That's backwards, Hex receivers were made up until the 1930's, then round was introduced. Round is easier to produce, just turn it on a lathe. Hex requires more machining.  All the Model 91s were hex, while the 91/30s were both hex and round. M-38s and M-44s, as well as Chinese T-53 were round.

Yes, production rifles pre 36/37 were hex.  Chatellerault made the first Mosins in France.  All of their production was hex. 

Russia contracted with Chatellerault because Russian was not yet up to producing the Mosin.  My vague recollection of the discussions was that the Imperial arsenals were not up to/did not have the machinery to mill it round precisely enough.  It was easier to mill a flat, rotate the receiver, mill a flat etc.   "shrug"  Best that I can remember. 

Things in the Mosin world change.  Maybe more info has come to light about the prototypes.  I do have the latest Russian book on the Mosin Nagant.  Of course I don't speak or read Russian so it will be a struggle to sort out.  Maybe the pics will help me figure it out.  I will check it tomorrow.

There are Russian built M38's and m44's built on older recycled hex receivers.
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: smoke on April 14, 2018, 10:28:25 pm
Found it.

2. Rifle M1891/30, later pattern

In the years 1936-37 the Soviets fell back on something, which the co-designers of the old three-line-rifle, Emile and Leon Nagant, used in their test-rifle of 1889; the round receiver. This is the most significant feature of the rifle Mosin-Nagant M91/30, second pattern. The other important feature is the simplified rear part of the cocking device. With introducing the round receiver the Soviets tried to save material and working time. The new rear part was significant smaller and completely rounded without steps.

http://www.mosinnagant.net/ussr/soviet-m9130.asp
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: Drydock on April 15, 2018, 09:24:36 am
Ah, the 1889 test rifle.  That makes sense, it would have been a hand made rifle with no tooling, thus a lathe turned and bored receiver,  but as only one or two were made, and they were not, in fact 1891s, it won't affect the rule: Hex receivers only.  But it does make a point: the round receivers were easier to machine, not the hex.

The 1889 was also probably a single shot!  Check out C&Rsenals new video on the M-N.
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on June 15, 2018, 06:50:34 pm
Took mine to the range today.  Shot about 3 inches at 100.  Set the sights for 400 which should be something close to 300 yards not more than about 4 to 7 inches high at 100 and 200 with Romanian Silver tip.  No wind zero left and right seems good.  May shoot it for the long range if the Krag is not working well when we try sighting in.
Title: Re: I'll be doing my own.... Mosin Nagant ?
Post by: smoke on June 15, 2018, 08:25:10 pm
Ah, the 1889 test rifle.  That makes sense, it would have been a hand made rifle with no tooling, thus a lathe turned and bored receiver,  but as only one or two were made, and they were not, in fact 1891s, it won't affect the rule: Hex receivers only.  But it does make a point: the round receivers were easier to machine, not the hex.

The 1889 was also probably a single shot!  Check out C&Rsenals new video on the M-N.

Sorry I missed this post.  Yes the trials rifle.  I do have the new Chumak book on Mosins but since I don't read Russian.... ::)