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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Colt SAA Clones => Topic started by: marko on June 09, 2016, 05:46:51 pm

Title: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: marko on June 09, 2016, 05:46:51 pm
A few months ago as i posted here i purchased a Uberti Flattop target 45c, i just purchased from VTI a 45acp cylinder and as you know it requires some fitting. I have never done this before and have concerns... do i sand both the bushing and the star measuring carefully as i go along? Or do i send it to VTI to be fitted for a flat fee of $250 pluse shipping both ways anther almost $!00 I need help please.

Marko
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Coffinmaker on June 09, 2016, 07:21:27 pm
Other than to polish the Burrs off the star, leave it alone.  The star establishes your head space.  Before messing at the star end, load
the cylinder with EMPTY cases and check the head space.  Optimum is .004 or .005.  Just set the cylinder with the cases in the chambers
into the recess at the back of the recoil shield and check head space with a feeler gauge.
Then install the Bushing and see if it will fit the window.  With a very flat surface and 350 Wet/Dry paper, carefully surface the Bushing
until it just slides into the window.  You don't and more than .002 End Shake (fore and aft movement).

Coffinmaker
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: marko on June 09, 2016, 07:53:26 pm
Coffin maker.

I got out my calipers and on the fitted 45c cylinder the bushing is 46.52 mm the cylinder to the top of one of the stars is 45.10mm the new unfitted 45ACP cylinder bushing measures 46.67 mm and the cylinder to the top of one of the stars measures 45.20MM. So DO NOT sand the star end at all? Only the bushing side?
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Coffinmaker on June 09, 2016, 08:36:44 pm
Your close enough at the star end.  Polish only.  Do your fitting from the bushing side.

Coffinmaker
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: marko on June 09, 2016, 08:58:36 pm
I will attempt to sand the bushing on Saturday ... i ordered feeler gauges and will have them Saturday , do i leave the bushing in the cylinder when sanding or remove? Thanks for your help.


Marko
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Coffinmaker on June 10, 2016, 10:32:43 am
I find it much easier to keep the whole thing square when surfacing if I keep it together.  Just the bushing is tough to control.  Remember
when you test fit to run a patch thru the bore of the Bushing first to get the crud out.

Coffinmaker
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Trailrider on June 10, 2016, 11:32:30 am
Are you intending to use both the .45LC cylinder and the .45ACP cylinder interchangeably?  If so, you should check to see if the new cylinder is indexing properly, i.e., the chambers are lining up with the bore. To do this you need a "reach rod", which is the diameter of the BORE of the cylinder and it should slide easily into each chamber.  If not, the star may need to be worked on, and that IMHO is a job for the gunsmith.  The problem is that, unlike fitting a single cylinder to the gun, you can't just work on the hand surfaces. You may need to work on the star contact points of both to get it right.  Once in a while you will find you don't need any work on the indexing. I once bought a new .44-40 cylinder for an original Colt's Frontier Six Shooter because the original throats in the original cylinder were way undersized, and I didn't want to ream them. Bought the new cylinder and just for laughs tried it without doing anything to it. Locked up like a bank vault! And as I had specified .427" throats, it shoots like almost no other Colt's I've ever seen!
Best of luck with your project!
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: marko on June 10, 2016, 01:19:28 pm
Just the 45acp after i hopefully fit it.
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: marko on June 10, 2016, 02:33:29 pm
Anyone know of a good single action smith located in NC?
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Cholla Hill Tirador on June 11, 2016, 08:54:25 am
 My first Colt-type SA was an older Uberti 44-40. I'd really wanted a 44 Special but the 44-40 was to cheap to pass up. So I ordered  44 Special cylinder from  VTI and slowly worked the north end of the cylinder Der bushing down until I could just slide the cyonder into the frame. Worked perfectly and the revolver is a tack driver.
 I used a piece of safety (laminated)  glass about 6" square for a flat surface. Started with 220 wet/dry and worked my way down to 400 grit.

 CHT
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: marko on June 15, 2016, 01:53:44 pm
Cholla


Did you have to work both ends with the sand paper? the bushing and the star.
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Cholla Hill Tirador on June 15, 2016, 03:38:08 pm
Cholla


Did you have to work both ends with the sand paper? the bushing and the star.

 I did not work the star or.ratchet end. I figure since the star determines headspace, I'd best leave it alone.

  CHT
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: marko on June 15, 2016, 04:37:40 pm
Cool thanks, will let you know.
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: marko on June 15, 2016, 09:28:04 pm
Ok i fitted the cylinder took my time 220 to 400 grit but i had to sand both the star and the bushing ... had to. fits nice but when i look at the gap between where the projectile will enter the barrel there is a small gap that i checked with a feeler gauge .008 or 0.20mm is that ok?
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Flint on June 22, 2016, 05:20:21 pm
First, check the headspace.  If it is right, don't touch the star.  If it is too long, shorten the star the correct amount.  Lastly, set the length of the gas ring/bushing.  Don't remove the headspace beyond spec to increase the cylinder gap, face the cylinder.  If it is the only cylinder, you can face the barrel extension, but you need to keep the cylinder gap correct for your primary cylinder, and adjust the other cylinders, not the gun.
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: mc1911 on March 08, 2017, 08:02:21 am
The bolt on my Cattleman was too thick to fully fit in the cylinder notches of a 45 acp cylinder from a ruger 45 flat top (midsize frame) Blackhawk.

The cylinder appeared to be the same size It went right in. I would not recommend any try something like this unless done by a real professional single action 'smith.

This has me wondering about relative strength of the two types of handguns and conversion possibilities 8if done by a skilled PROFFESIONAL.

Anything you try is at your own risk.
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Story on August 13, 2019, 09:57:49 am
For what it's worth, I recently acquired a .45ACP cylinder for my Cimarron .45LC Thunderer.

At first fit, it was too long to drop in. I checked it versus 1) the Thunderer's 45LC cylinder dimensions and 2) versus another P-frame Cimarron 45LC/45ACP combo's cylinders.  The new cylinder was identical, although the ratchet cuts seemed a bit shallow. *Shrug*

Taking a deep breath and a fine file (wider than the ratchet diameter), I stroked the back as perpendicular as I could - a dozen passes, rotating the cylinder 1/4 turn ever three passes so I didn't accidentally induce a cant.

First time, it fit! Still too snug. 
Second time, fit better - but still too snug
Third time, fit and performed as it should.

I've got a six second video as proof of life, but it's 11mb and I'm too lazy to post. Plus, you guys believe me - right?

Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Coffinmaker on August 14, 2019, 10:59:40 am

La De Da De Da ..... Here I are again.  Enjoying this exercise in Necromancy.  Re-Visiting old threads is often really fun. 

STORY:

Something I should add at this particular point in time.  The .45 ACP Cylinder fitted up, makes a marvelous platform for the Cowboy 45 Special case.  Especially now, that Starline carries the C45S case as a regular item in their lineup.  If a person is of a mind to their 45 with less recoil and muzzle flip, the C45S is superb for reduced loads (Atz what it was designed for).  It is also uniquely superb for reduced loads of BP or SUBs.  We do understand though, of you "really" reduce, filler will be needed to eliminate air space in the case.

The advantage, if there is any, is the elimination of the "jump" from the cartridge mouth to the cylinder throat.  I have no real proof the elimination of the jump really matters.  I have gotten superb accuracy with the C45S case in "normal" 45 Colt chambers.  Virtually the same result in a 45 ACP cylinder.  No measurable difference.  It is just the inescapable Gunplumber in me that "thinks" the throats extending back to the case mouth in an ACP cylinder is better.  Also understanding, being able to run 45 ACP cases in a revolver is a plus.  I have a ton of 45 ACP cases from my bullseye days just filling up boxes.  Of course it's also fun to watch folks look atcha askance as you thumb a pile of ACP cartridges into a Cowboy Sixgun.  Fun stuff that.
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Story on August 14, 2019, 02:02:04 pm
Thanks for weighing in, Coffinmaker - as always, your posts are an education.

I'm a cheapskate (the driving force behind having 45ACP options) and a Philistine (understanding the nuances of the 45 Special but not appreciating them, because cheapskate).

As for Thread Necromancy, normally I only summon such under the full moon but I was impatient. At least I did the ritual dance properly naked and counter-clockwise this time.

Klaatu barada nikto to you & yours.
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Story on September 28, 2019, 02:33:24 am
Delayed Range report - the cylinder functions as it should, the little steel pie plates fell with satisfactory regularity.
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Professor Marvel on September 28, 2019, 02:44:46 am
Delayed Range report - the cylinder functions as it should, the little steel pie plates fell with satisfactory regularity.

Ah My Good Adam

No spitting of lead?
No cranky cases cases not coming out?
no excessive barrel cylinder gap causing ouchies?

inquiring minds are a terrible thing to waste!

prof marvel
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Coffinmaker on September 29, 2019, 04:51:29 pm

Well ... HI Perfesser   ;D

I'm not Adam G (No!  Really I'm not .. Honest) but I thought I'd share ........  I installed many 45 ACP cylinders in Single Actions.  It is a fairly straight forward and simple change.  Mostly Uberti SAs but I also did the change to several USFA guns, including a pair of my own.  The most popular guns for the change were Cimarron Thunderer with 3 1/2 inch barrels and USFA guns of the same barrel length. 

In no case did I encounter lead spitting.  No cranky cases and when the fitting is done correctly, no excessive barrel/cylinder gap.  Not only was the benefit of being able to use 45 ACP cases (a gazillion of those exist) but the chamber was absolutely perfect for the Cowboy 45 Special cases.  Eliminating the "jump" from case mouth to cylinder throat.  A bit of a caveat .... I have not encountered ANY accuracy problems in ANY .45 Colt chambered guns when stoked with C45S.  So .... in my feeble mind, the addition of a 45 ACP chambered cylinder was strictly a win win change.
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Professor Marvel on September 29, 2019, 05:29:38 pm
Ah My Dear Coffin

I agree with you entirely! I have been collecting trash bits and pieces for more than several Lustrum now  ( Lusti? Lustium?)
and have been playing swapsie with gay abandon.

Since the introduction of CNC and the result of true interchangeable partsy bits, it has been a dream.
Older stuff prior to that... more of a nightmare.

I had hoped Adam might re-appear.

Oh, yeah I will have to order out some .45 Cowboy brass before it's gone.

yhs
prof bits and pieces
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Coffinmaker on October 07, 2019, 08:32:13 pm
Ah Yes my Grande Perfesser .......


The availability of the Cowboy 45 Special case is a boone to Mankind.  Er .. Personkind.  Er .. Shootingkind.  Um .. Well .. everybody whom pursues nice light manageable loads for revolvers (Or certain rifles) chambered for 45 Colt.

Starline, always the manufacturer, wisely chose to take distributing and marketing into their own hands when the last entrepreneur failed at establishing a successful enterprise.  The Creator of the cartridge found the marketing end to be somewhat stressful.  Ergo, several subsequent marketing entities attempted to fill the Void unsuccessfully.  It would appear this fine little niche cartridge finally has a secure future (I would hope).  Bourne as it twer to fill a small niche in primarily the CAS shooting world the C45S is really quite useful.  Originally described by the Creator as a "Curious Little Cartridge."  It's a whole lot more than a "Curious Little Cartridge."
Title: Re: Fitting 45ACP into Uberti Cattleman need help please.
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 08, 2019, 01:34:17 am
Ah Yes my Grande Perfesser .......


The availability of the Cowboy 45 Special case is a boone to Mankind.  Er .. Personkind.  Er .. Shootingkind.  Um .. Well .. everybody whom pursues nice light manageable loads for revolvers (Or certain rifles) chambered for 45 Colt.

Starline, always the manufacturer, wisely chose to take distributing and marketing into their own hands when the last entrepreneur failed at establishing a successful enterprise.  The Creator of the cartridge found the marketing end to be somewhat stressful.  Ergo, several subsequent marketing entities attempted to fill the Void unsuccessfully.  It would appear this fine little niche cartridge finally has a secure future (I would hope).  Bourne as it twer to fill a small niche in primarily the CAS shooting world the C45S is really quite useful.  Originally described by the Creator as a "Curious Little Cartridge."  It's a whole lot more than a "Curious Little Cartridge."

If the "bullet jump" in a .45 Colt cylinder does not affect accuracy, I will be all over .45 Cowboy Special for smokeless loads!
I am not concerned about "light loads", rather It will allow me to safely run smokeless Unique powder in the 7-9 grain range
for my conversions  without worries of the dreaded "oopsy" double charge.

It also replicates the old .45 Webley cartridges almost perfectly.

yhs
Prof Marvel