Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Uberti, Pietta and other SAA Clones => Topic started by: Rowdy Fulcher on February 21, 2015, 01:08:37 PM
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Howdy
I have been thinking about a 4 3/4 44wcf . Who has one , and do you like it ? Have you had any trouble with yours ? They are fine looking guns .
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Rowdy,
Too bad we do not live near each other in the same state. One of us buy the used pair of Uberti 44wcf's over on SASS classifed and the other buy the second one.
I want a Uberti 4 3/4" - 44wcf to create a 44spec/russian/colt, combo. I cannot find one here in my area at all and the SASS used one's are the only ones at a semi - reasonable price. Still high, too me, for used with brass TG/BS., but with the long wait for new.....
I looked into the Pietta Frontier new but they do not offer a replacement cylinder in 44spec and their general cylinder prices are $200. To expensive to buy one and have it chambered.
I am still waiting to see if Cabella has the Pietta 44Mag on sale again, I will go for it and change the 1860 BS/TG to an 1851. If this become my first and only option, I will forego the 44wcf. Then maybe someday fork-over another $200 for the 44wcf pietta replacement cylinder.
Uberti is my preferred. As a comparison, I have passed on a Ruger 44spec flattop for $399 sitting in a LGS for the last 3 months, if that helps define my desire for colt clones.
PS I read a lot of reviews and comments on the wires about the Pietta 44 mag and general guns before attempting to buy the one at Cabella's in Jan. No one really had a complaint about them. I think Bottom Dealing Mike (Mike Beliveau) states that Pietta or the Great Western II is his preferred clone.
BRS
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Well, Rowdy, that's the gun I have. I wrote about it under your previous thread on the Uberti version (MP522).
CC Griff
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CCG
Thank you , Today I have a pp522 . I picked it up today . I plan on shooting a few rounds this weekend . The only thing I don't like is the screw that holds the cylinder in . It sticks out like a sore pe$ker , if you know what I mean . I like the screws that fits flush like the colts . I will be posting pictures in a few days . So far I like it , and the trigger pull is better than my Uberti . The sights are as you pictured v notch rear and a non tapered front sight .
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Check the box it came in. I believe they're shipped with a replacement screw for the cylinder pin. If not, they're easily replaced. I also trimmed off the end of my cylinder pin so that it sits deeply like the originals. (It was easy to trim to length, round, polish and cold blue.)
I'm glad you like it. I'm looking forward to photos and a range report!
CC Griff
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CCG
I looked in the box twice and no screw . I will call Cimarron . I was really pleased with the trigger pull .
Black River Smith
Good luck on you project . What state do you call home , Missouri ???
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Sorry, Rowdy. When I bought mine from Oklahoma Tom, he switched the screw before he shipped it to my FFL. I had heard that they sometimes hide in the boxes.
I like mine too. I don't have much experience with other Colt-type revolvers to compare it to, but I'm impressed with how well mine looks and works.
CC Griff
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Rowdy,
Glad you got the one you liked. I saw your other 'Christmas wish list' post, where you wanted another 'old' Model P. I also checked on these and the wait or timeframe was just too long for me, too. That is why I started to look at the 4 3/4" Pietta. I also really prefer a steel BS/TG on anything I get from here on.
Yes, home is Missouri.
Have fun with this one and hope to see one of your youtube vidoe's about it, sometime.
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I don't know about the Pietta but with the Uberti's I have seen them come with both screws in the box and sometimes just the one. The ugly screw even though doesn't look right is kind of handy at shoots when shooting black powder because you can take it out real quick without a screwdriver.
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The very first Pietta BP-frame single actions that Cimarron received a couple years ago had only the ugly protruding base pin screw, but they did start making a flush-fit slotted screw. Cimarron should be able to send you one, unless they are out of stock at the moment.
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^^^ This is why I use the larger thumbscrew in my Cimarron and Uberti. I shoot BP and at the range it is handy to pull apart to sprtz some Ballistol on the works to keep it loose.
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Howdy
I have sent Cimarron a email asking for a flush fitting screw . I did get a chance to shoot yesterday , fired 10 rounds . Plan on shooting this Saturday , will let you know how it shoots then .
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How did she shoot, Rowdy?
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Howdy
Got a email from Cimarron , the flush cylinder screw is on it's way . As for how it shoots well I hit a few tin cans at the range . Plan on putting it on paper when the weather is BETTER .
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Nice! You'll enjoy it.
CC Griff
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Howdy
I have my 73 and my pp 522 , this may be my pair for next Deer season . Also the empty cartridge is the one that killed my 10 pointer last season . ( 2014 )
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Howdy
Here are a couple , hope you enjoy .
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Rowdy,
Why did you finally choose the Pietta over the Model P or Uberti?
The V rear sight; the immediate availability over the Uberti wait; to experience the other brand.....
BRS
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Howdy
BRS I had talked with several people and they said they had no problem with the Pietta . So I rolled the dice and took the chance . So far I am happy with it . Today I shot it , and it did ok . It shot low and a little to the left . But until it gets warmer I can't give a fair analyses . But as of now I like it and think it's a KEEPER .
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Howdy
I received the cylinder pin screw from Cimarron yesterday . Plan on installing it , will take a picture and post .
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Howdy
Here is pictures of the flush fitting cylinder pin .
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Looks good, Rowdy. Are you going to trim back the cylinder base pin too? I'm also waiting for one of your world-famous shooting videos!
CC Griff
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CCG
Yes I plan on trimming the cylinder pin down . As for a Video , maybe when the snow melts and it warms up . I have a rig ordered from El Paso Saddlery . Looking forward to going out and shooting .I think it will make a good vintage hunting handgun .
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Howdy
After work I grabbed my pistol and ammo and went shooting . I shot about a half of box of Black Hills ammo . I shot a few rounds on paper , still shoots low and left . Then I shot a few cans . The temp was about 59 degree's and the SUN was shinning , great afternoon .
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Sounds like a good day. Next time you shoot the gun, try shooting with your left hand and see if it still shoots low-left. That can help to determine if it is the gun or the shooter ;)
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Howdy
Got a chance to shoot today . I shot 2 groups of 5 rounds each . This was at 12 yards . The first group was the lower left group ,then I used a little Kentucky windage .
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Howdy
My rig from El Paso came in today . It will be an Excellent choice for the vintage hunter .
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Howdy
The John Wayne rig from EP saddlery is a excellent rig for the Pietta pp522 . Plan on shooting tomorrow , so far I am real pleased with the Pistol . The Vintage hunter will want to add this to his collection .
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Howdy
This weekend was great . I found the perfect targets to shoot . I found almost a case of Beer on the roadside . The sun had faded the cans so they had been there awhile . So I loaded them up and went shooting . Now when you hit a can and it blows up , well that's just fun to watch . Now them Bud's didn't stand a chance against a 44wcf .
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Defending yourself from an attack of the "Budweiser Gang". Nice!
Actually cans are still my favorite target.
Cc Griff
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CCG
I was a lucky man , those Budweiser boys didn't have a chance . The Pietta has really impressed me . I have shot about 200 rounds through it so far . I like the Bullseye ejector that is on the old models . I will go as far to say I like it better than my Uberti . The grips just have that feel , they just fit my hand perfectly .
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Very nice setup there Rowdy.
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BRS
Thank you , I am real pleased with the Pietta . And the El Paso rig is superb rig . It has 24 bullet loops that are centered . This works great while hunting I wear the buckle to the rear and the bullet loops in front .
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Howdy
Here is another pic.
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Rowdy... I know you mentioned it but I cant find it.. Are the sights the wide notch or the razor thin/narrow V type?
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Medic
The rear sight is the V notch . The front sight is not tapered it's a straight wall , and it's not a fat width like the smoke wagon for example . I will try to get a picture of the sights .
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Thank you, sir!
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Nice write up, thanks. Few thing better in life that popping cans or doing the can-can dance on a sand bank with a six gun :-)
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Pictures of the sights on my Pietta appear in this thread (post #10): http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,54046.0.html (http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,54046.0.html)
CC Griff
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CCG
Thanks for posting the links to the pictures . I had forgotten about them . I plan on going shooting this afternoon . Plan on popping a few beer cans . The other week I loved shooting the full cans of Beer , that was fun .
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Rowdy, CCG I really do thank you two fine gentlemen for your help!
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I loved shooting the full cans of Beer , that was fun .
The best use for cans of Budweiser, in my opinion ;).
CC Griff
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Howdy
When I started looking for a 4 3/4 44wcf old model I wanted a Uberti . But , I could get my hands on the Pietta and it has worked GREAT . I plan on shooting black powder loads this weekend .I need to have enough time to clean between different loads .
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Howdy
Between work and life didn't get to shoot over the weekend . I have a few black powder loads that I want to try . When Deer season arrives this fall I plan on having this 44wcf ready too . My 73 rifle proved that old cartridge is as deadly today as it was in1873 .Today gun writers want to sell the newest greatest not the old favorites . Here is a couple of my favorites .
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Fine looking combination.
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Howdy
Finally got a chance to shoot the black powder ammo . This was ammo from Powder Inc. that was for Vintage Hunting . This ammo was HOT to say the least . I shot 15 rounds on paper and about 15 rounds at cans and bottles . The first couple round brought out the fling monster then I settled down .
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Howdy
Plan on having the Pietta with me this Deer season . I can't wait .
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Howdy
Got the day off , so I went shooting . I fired about 50 rounds of black hills ammo . Still HAPPY with the Pietta . The Pietta and the El Paso Saddlery John Wayne rig are a Excellent combo . I have shot smokeless and black powder and plan on shooting some BP subs . I have plans for a black powder Ground Hog hunt . But that will be after Turkey season goes out .
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I'm glad you're enjoying it. I like mine too.
CC Griff
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CCG
The Pietta has been great . I plan on shooting the Triple 7 loads in it . I have shot smokeless , Black Powder and plan on shooting the BP sub next . Won't do any shooting today my Daughter is getting married , this is a Special day .
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You may find the T7 a little hot in the revolver, unless you are loading a filler over the T7 reduced amount. For a sub I find that APP is the best , and more accurate.
Just my opinion you understand, others may vary.
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Lefty
Thanks for the input . The APP is a milder load and fun to shoot . I have loaded my Vintage Hunting round using the 777 and it worked great in my 73 Winchester/Uberti . Now I only use this load for Hunting only . That round chronographs at 1300 fps out of my Winchester . And yes it is a handful from a revolver .But the 44wcf in 1873 had a velocity of 1325 fps in the rifle .
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Howdy
Today I was able to trim the cylinder pin down . And it looks a whole lot better . What about it now .
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That's more like it. Looks good!
CC Griff
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Howdy
Today I was able to trim the cylinder pin down . And it looks a whole lot better . What about it now .
I like the shorter cylinder pin. Did the same thing to my Cimarron Frontier in 45. I really love the
old model frames.
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Howdy
Here is a picture with my 76 .
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Howdy
Got big plans of ground hog hunting this weekend . Hope to have a little success between shires .
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Howdy
I am working on a plinking load , have came up with a good load . 6.8 grains of Unique with a Winchester LP Primer Starline Brass and a .430 diameter Meister 200 grain bullet . I shot 10 rounds of this load after work . Plan on trying them on a bench Saturday .
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Hey Rowdy,
Plinking load. Allow me to suggest ....... a 430 Round Ball, Crimped at the equator sitting on top of APP 2f. You'll be amazed.
Coffinmaker
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Hi Rowdy,
Forgot. I do that sometimes ..........
Same Same, 430 Round Ball, Crimp at the Equator, Tightgroup 4.5 (work your way up), I like a Mag primer (Federal) for small powder charges. This one's really gonna recoil. 'Bout like a 22 ;>}
Coffinmaker
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Coffinmaker
Thanks for the input . Have plans for shooting today . Will post the results .
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Howdy
I tried a couple different loads with WLP Primers and CCI magnum pistol primers . The load with the magnum primers gave the best group . My old faithful WLP let me down . The group was not to shabby .
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Howdy
Got a chance to try another load . I am trying a load of Trail Boss with the Meister .430 200 grain bullet . This pistol is a shooter .
5 shots at 11 yards .
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Howdy
Today I decided to drop a Wolfe main spring in . The factory main spring had a trigger pull of 3.5 lbs the Wolfe main spring has a trigger pull of 2.2 . After installing I tried it , with WLP primers no problem . Next I tried with CCI primers no problem either . And yes it made a noticeable improvement .It had a pretty good trigger out of the box , but it has a better trigger now .
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Howdy
After work I loaded my lawn mower and went to our hunting cabin and mowed . My son came along and after mowing we did a little shooting . I sat the targets out and we started shooting . I was hitting targets out to 20 yards . The Pietta is a shooter even my son liked shooting it , but when your ringing steel that's a good thing .
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Sounds like a real nice revolver Rowdy. Keep shooting and ringing those gongs! Live the dream. ;D
I've had an MP4 for years from Cimarron in 44 WCF and I absolutely love it (except for the narrow front sight blade). Trigger releases at 3.5 lbs consistently as is / out of the box. I also have a Ruger Vaquero with Wolfe springs that breaks cleanly at 2.25, so I know what you mean about really nice trigger pull.
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj275/brassmagnet/1876%20etc/P060615_1713_zpsarkpnliq.jpg) (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/brassmagnet/media/1876%20etc/P060615_1713_zpsarkpnliq.jpg.html)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj275/brassmagnet/1876%20etc/IMGP0748_zpsdrglcqg8.jpg) (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/brassmagnet/media/1876%20etc/IMGP0748_zpsdrglcqg8.jpg.html)
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Dirty Brass
Nice looking pistols . Thanks for sharing , I love looking at pictures . I decided to get my Pietta to shoot to POA . So I ran my pistol over to a gun smith and he fixed it right up . And I have 10 shots on this target .
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Howdy
I used to think the Pietta was a second class pistol compared to a Uberti . Not now , this pistol is a first class pistol .
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Howdy
A few of my favorite things .
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Howdy
Got a chance to shoot a few rounds .
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Howdy
Got to go shooting over the weekend . I can't think of a better way to spend your fourth of July , than out shooting . I shot Black Hills ammo that printed nice small groups at 15 yards . I loaded ammo with Unique and Trail Boss and they both performed well . I use Starline brass and have had no problems with my reloads . Now for my Vintage Hunting load I have had Great success with Triple 7 . In the future I would like to work with Ole Ensyford from Goex I have heard good things about it .
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I just ordered a consecutive numbered pair of these from Cimarron. ;D
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Daniel
Congratulations on your order . I hope you enjoy yours , as much as I have enjoyed mine .
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I got them last night. I have the same model in 7 1/2" already as my main sass guns, so my expectations were high as those guns were great out of the box. The 4 3/4" guns are even slicker straight out of the box.
Attached is a pic of them. For some unknown reason one had a flush cylinder pin screw and the other had a thumb screw type. One is marked on the barrel Frontier 44wcf and the other is marked Single Action 44/40. I would have preferred them both to say Frontier 44wcf like my long barrels, but it's not a deal breaker. Since they are consecutive, I must have hit right between a model change? How was yours marked Rowdy?
DD
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Daniel
My pistol is marked Frontier 44 wcf . I don't know WHY they would change that ???
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Daniel,
Go back thru the box your gun with the "thumb Screw" came in. There should be a proper flush screw stuck in the steyro some where.
Then, pull the cylinder pins and cut off the last 3/32 of an inch and dress the end. Then get some new Main Springs. I like "Lee's Gunsmithing Gunfighter" springs (Brownells). The Lee's kit includes a wire T/B spring. Skip that. The Pietta T/B spring is superior.
While I was a practicing artisan of the Gunsmithing Trade, I tried to make a point. The guns currently being Made by Pietta are the best
value for dollar in the CAS world. In no way second class. Have fun with em. Oh, I've retired. Permanently unemployed ;D
Coffinmaker
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Howdy
I contacted Cimarron about the flush fitting screw because my pistol only had the UGLY big one . They sent it out , and I had it in a couple days . I am really pleased with my pistol it has made an excellent addition to my Vintage Hunting gear .
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Next suggestion/recommendation to those who have Black Powder frames with the little front facing, flush fitting, neat little screw.
Dress the end of the screw so it just clears the cylinder base pin. If the screw end actually contacts the base pin, the screw will never
be quite "tight" wand will be constantly backing out. If it falls out, into the weeds, or the gravel, or in the creek, well, you get the idea.
The cylinder base pin should turn as should the cylinder bushing (if your gun has the removable bushing). I also recommend a drop
(a small drop) of either purple or blue LocTite on the screw threads. Torque will not solve the problem of gun screws that shoot lose.
LocTite will.
Coffinmaker
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OOPS!!
I forgot. When an SA is broken down for a thorough cleaning, or if the screws just start shooting lose, LocTite. Just torquing down of the screws will just burr the screw heads and strip out the threads.
The other BIGGEST PROBLEM screw, retains the the ejector rod assembly to the barrel. Once this little gem starts shooting loose, you cannot apply enough torque to keep it in the gun. You will either strip the threads off the screw (bad joss) :o or strip the threads OUT of the barrel. >:( (Worse than just bad joss). Don't fight that little screw. Put a drop of either purple or blue LocTite on it.
Coffinmaker
PS: Or, watch your ejector assembly follow the bullet down range ;D
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I know, the knurled head base pin screw is not correct for the BP frames. And the flush head is. However I use the knurled screw.
Now here is why; I can retain that screw from self removal and possible lose. I use a small rubber washer under the knurled head. I get the rubber washer at the local Ace hardware in the plumbing dept. when the knurled head is screwed down, a slight pressure is re-applied to the screw. And the screw is held in by the spring tension of the rubber washer.
No Loctite is necessary.
Works for me.
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Gents,
Thanks for all the replies! I phoned Cimarron and they sent me the flush screw. It's awaiting me putting it in.
Another question, is there a set of screw drivers specifically for colts and clones? I have some gunsmith tips that I use, but they are not a perfect fit like I would prefer.
Thanks!
Dan
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Gents,
Thanks for all the replies! I phoned Cimarron and they sent me the flush screw. It's awaiting me putting it in.
Another question, is there a set of screw drivers specifically for colts and clones? I have some gunsmith tips that I use, but they are not a perfect fit like I would prefer.
Thanks!
Dan
Yep; I use the Colt set of Screwdrivers by Grace USA
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My prior life was as a CAS gunsmith. I used Brownells screwdrivers. I found the closest driver tips I could find to the actual screw size and then further ground them to a perfect fit. the reason I did this, was Uberti, Ruger, USFA, ASM, etc all have sightly different thickness of screw slots. Plus, If I twist one (frequently) or snapped one off (once in a while), just called Brownells and got a new one (free replacement).
If you go the Brownells route, the longer, magnetic handle will drive you knutz. Skip it. Go with the non-magnetic, short handle. I think Brownells calls it an LE handle. I never broke one of those.
I'm currently doing my world famous impression of a Couch Patada so I'm not near the shop to give you the specific driver numbers.
Coffinmaker
PS: If your not doing a lot of work or really abusing em, the Grace USA drivers are really nice.
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Howdy
The Pietta pp 522 is an excellent choice for cas or Vintage Hunting . I am very happy with mine .
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Howdy
Got a chance to go shooting with my son in law . Had a good time and he now has a different opinion about those old cowboy guns .We were shooting at about 10 yards and that ole 44wcf was eating the center out of the targets .
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Howdy
Has anyone used the oven cleaner spray to strip there grips ? All I want to do is remove the shinny lacquer shine .
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Oh Goody,
A question for my "Other" other life. Almost anything you use as a "stripper" will effect not only the Lacquer Shine part, but the underlying
stains and finishes as well.
The Shiny Lacquer part is actually Varnish. If and agent will cut the Varnish, it will also cut the underlying stain.
I didn't answer your question. I don't know. Never tried it. But. Personally, I wouldn't. Best way, is with a good Stripper (Lowes, Home Depot, Ace, Craft store) and thoroughly remove the old finish(s) down to bare wood. Retain with a color you like. Re-coat with a nice
Satin or Flat Varnish. Or, almost any good stock finish. For overall protection of the wood, a Varnish is your best bet.
Coffinmaker
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Coffinmaker
Thanks , just wanting to remove the slick shiny varnish .
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I have heard of people rubbing the grips with a scotchbrite pad to dull the finish. I haven't done it and don't know if it would leave scratches.
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Rowdy,
I believe I know the answer to my following question, because you stated you are using a 0.430 bullet but here goes.
Does this new Pietta have a bore of 0.427 or 0.429?
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BRS
I slugged my barrel and it slugged out a .4285 . I have shot .429 and .430 and they shot and chambered with no problem . BUT I'm using new brass and not resizing the new cases . I was at my hunting cabin yesterday mowing grass , afterwards I broke out my pistol and was hitting targets at 20 + yards . This pistol is a good shooter , will be packing it in hunting season hope for a chance to take a coyote or deer with it .
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Howdy
A picture is worth a thousand words . ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Oh sure ::) Bragging on "minute of paper plate" now are we!! Humpf. :o Nice. Very NICE ;D
Coffinmaker
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Coffinmaker
I have had a Great time working with the Pietta . The 44wcf has become one of my favorite rounds . Plan on taking it out tomorrow and doing a little shooting .
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Coffinmaker
Thanks , just wanting to remove the slick shiny varnish .
Hey There Rowdy!
..I use of 4-aught steel wool...but, go slow & gentle, or you'll eat down to bare wood.
Slim
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Oh Goody,
A question for my "Other" other life. Almost anything you use as a "stripper" will effect not only the Lacquer Shine part, but the underlying
stains and finishes as well.
The Shiny Lacquer part is actually Varnish. If and agent will cut the Varnish, it will also cut the underlying stain.
I didn't answer your question. I don't know. Never tried it. But. Personally, I wouldn't. Best way, is with a good Stripper (Lowes, Home Depot, Ace, Craft store) and thoroughly remove the old finish(s) down to bare wood. Retain with a color you like. Re-coat with a nice
Satin or Flat Varnish. Or, almost any good stock finish. For overall protection of the wood, a Varnish is your best bet.
Coffinmaker
Plus two on a proper stripper ...
I like the water soluble brands ( here is one I use http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip-18-oz-Stripper-ESR72/100135467 )
Your Pietta will have European Walnut grips , this slight lighter the American Black walnut and will normally have straighter grain .
here are two examples of grips that have been striped and re finished
1. USPFA/Uberti
2. L & R of a Uberti one piece
Both were striped to the wood, the finish is Skidmore's ( Their Leather & wood cream is the same product )
You may find the Pietta wood lighter or not , but should you ...Brown leather dye is my trick ( thin with alcohol to the color hue you like ) when dry rub in Skidmores
If you want more instruction PM me
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Works for old grips as well
here is a set of Vintage wood H&R grips as purchased on E bay for $8
The OEM Grips for the gun were Black plastic & cracked, they were swapped for the rare to find OEM Wood panels.
1. before > kinda rough and the varnish heavily warn
2. 3 o'clock > stripped , lightly sanded and smoothed , leather dye (3 to 1 Alcohol & Brown) and Skidmore's .. as installed
Lastly
My Pietta C&B conversion
Stripped & dyed & Skidmore's did I mention I like Skidmore's as a the top coat ? :)
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Rowdy,
After looking these 7 months I have determined that you have the best revolver for authentic features. I wanted to create a 1st gen smokeless NM for 'my Colt'. The only brand on St Louis shelves is Uberti. IMO Uberti's have changed too many features that made them tops, for me. Now maybe the Cim Old Model P has stayed true to authenticity but the Cim New Model P did not. The Cim New Model P and the standard Uberti differ only by the lack or presence of the hammer safety and visibility of proof marks. There may be other issues that are not evident to me but......
My issues with them are they both have laser checkering on the hammer, they both have a square rear sight and the ejector housing is 1/8" shorter than the barrel (barrel 4 3/4 and housing is 4 5/8).
I could not buy the $350 Cabella Pietta 44MAG during the August sale, again. So, I seriously looked at the Pietta 44MAG that Cheaper than Dirt was listing, but passed because of the transfer bar and higher price. It appears that Pietta has improved its' quality and features while Uberti has gone to Production Savings features.
You should definitely be happy with your Pietta Old Model for vintage hunting this season. Good luck too.
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Howdy
Plan on stripping those shinny grips . Would like to make this happen over the weekend .Also plan on shooting my pistol and rifle in preparing for Deer season . I want to thank everyone for the information on how to .
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Howdy
Went shooting over the weekend . As usual the 44wcf shot GREAT . I have worked on my grips and they are looking real good . Will post pictures when I finish it . I love the feel of the grips as they fit my hand perfectly . All I want is to give the appearance of a old 1 st generation .
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Rowdy........ ::)
Just leave it out inna garden over the Winter ????? ;D
Coffinmaker
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Coffinmaker
After Deer season it will have a little wear and tear on it . Especially if mother nature is being nasty . If it's pouring down rain I wear my slicker trying to stay dry . . Dang I'm ready for Deer season . Can't wait ,plus I have almost run out of Venison .
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Howdy
I won this wooden box at a shoot several years ago . Think it goes with the pistol .
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Ummmmmmm............. Yum
NICE
Coffinmaker
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Coffinmaker
A nice wooden box lined with bear skin and a box of 44wcf ammo . Plan on shooting this weekend need all the practice I can get . Deer season is getting close .
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Howdy
The weather was chilly so I helped with a yard sale . This weekend was the Highway 60 yard sale . If I had of been selling Hot coffee and Hot chocolate would of made a fortune .
Plan on shooting and working around the cabin this weekend , I want to be ready for Deer season .
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Check the box it came in. I believe they're shipped with a replacement screw for the cylinder pin. If not, they're easily replaced. I also trimmed off the end of my cylinder pin so that it sits deeply like the originals. (It was easy to trim to length, round, polish and cold blue.)
I'm glad you like it. I'm looking forward to photos and a range report!
CC Griff
Question on this - from the photos it looks like they ship with a knurled screw which is to make it easier to remove vs a slotted screw? Additionally what would be the more correct screw this?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/968707/uberti-base-pin-screw-1873-cattleman-revolver-carbine-buckhorn
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Yes, the guns ship with that funky knurled screw. The reason the guns ship with the funky knurled screw is because the cylinder base pin
is a two position base pin, so it can be utilized as a "safety" for the all important BATFE "drop" test for importation. Uberti, in the past has also shipped the correct base pin screw in the same box. Stuck in a chunk of the styrofoam.
NO. The screw you picture is for the later cross frame spring loaded base pin stop. Refer to the "exploded drawing" on VTI gun parts
site. It is a wonky little screw. After you remove the last 3/32 or so from the back end of the base pin, dress and polish it, you will
have a more "Colt" cylinder base pin and not need that funky knurled screw.
Coffinmaker
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I will check VTI thanks.
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Howdy
Got a chance to go shooting over the weekend . The Pietta is a good shooter . I was shooting steel targets out to 25 yards .
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Howdy
Here are a few Vintage Hunting weapons .Hope to use them in a few weeks .
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Howdy
The 44wcf is a excellent cartridge . I have been hunting with it for a few years , it has done a excellent job . That's what started my interest in the pp522 . I enjoy carrying a handgun while hunting and wanted to carry the same caliber in pistol and rifle . I am pleased that the pp522 does that . I am wanting to find a good load with a jhp to use as a carry load and also as a occasional hunting load . Here is a picture of a Buck I killed with my 73 rifle using my Vintage Hunting Ammo .
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Howdy
Today is a RAINY day . Found a picture from back in June . Was working with different loads , always looking for the Perfect load .
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Howdy
Has anyone loaded any jhp for there pistol ? I shot a few Winchesters factory loads and it had a GIANT group .I pulled the bullet and it was a .426 jhp .
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Howdy
I hope Santa brings everyone a 44wcf in the barrel length of your choice . MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone .
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Howdy!! Ima hankerin' real hard on a 38-40 Cimarron like yours. Trying to talk myself into ordering it.. Maybe Santa can help. :)
Black powder only for me, of course. Olde Eynsford is my choice.
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Med
Hope Santa brings you a 38-40 . I am still shooting and enjoying my 44wcf . Would really love to take a Coyote with it . BUT it is really hard to get a coyote that close , but I have done it before .
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Howdy
Has anyone loaded any jhp for their Pietta's . And if you did what size bullet did you use .
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Jacketed bullets are so archaic, plus I hate to taint the bores of my revolvers with copper ;)
So far I've stayed with Keith style, non-HP SWC's, but have cast and shot quite a few HP's:
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Cast%20bullets/429421LgHPTest_zps4901098f.jpg) (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Cast%20bullets/429421LgHPTest_zps4901098f.jpg.html)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Cast%20bullets/429421PentaHPWatertest-reduced4_zpsa341339b.jpg) (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Cast%20bullets/429421PentaHPWatertest-reduced4_zpsa341339b.jpg.html)
Wasn't trying to emulate flesh, but was curious as to how well the bullets would expand and penetrate. I found it interesting that the bullet with the small HP lost its nose and the pieces but penetrated quite deep. Conversely, the bullet with the penta-style HP cavity penetrated not as deep, but had the pieces of the nose that stayed in the water jug, similar top the performance I've experienced with Nosler Partitions.
Some of the moulds are available with as many as four different HP pins so using certain alloys and styles of HP's, one can practically mould bullets that will expand however they choose.
Even if a fella doesn't cast, some of the commercial casters are now making HP bullets available.
CHT
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Howdy
Glad to hear the hollow point ammo is working for you . Nice pictures by the way . As for the JHP ammo I was wanting that for when I want to carry concealed . I have looked at the Hornady XTP ammo in a 200 grain bullet . I have shot a few in my 73 just to see how they would perform . I resized them to a .427 . Might give them a try this weekend in my Pietta . They gave a nice group at 50 yards from my 73 .
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Howdy
Got a chance to go shooting today . The weather was WINDY and I was working with a triple 7 load . This is the same load I use in my Rifle . It aint no wienie load .Hope to work with Old E in bp to work out another Vintage hunting load .
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Merry Christmas everyone
Hope Santa brings every Good Boy and Girl a 44wcf .
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Thanks Rowdy!! And a Merry Christmas to everyone here.
I'll settle for some more .44 Cap Guns to whittle on ;D
Coffinmaker
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Howdy
I tried a different load today in my pistol . I used Hornady xtp bullet resized to .427 and a healthy load of Unique . At 12 yards it's deadly . I didn't take any pictures it was pouring down rain . This was the load that shot a real good group in my rifle at 50 yards .
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Howdy
Looks like 2015 is about over . Want to wish everyone a Happy New Year . Hope 2016 will be a Great year . Hope everyone gets a chance to break in the New Years right by going out and Shooting or Hunting , Heck do both .
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Howdy
Hope everyone had a Happy New Years . I welcomed the new year with a day of shooting . I shoot the Hornady XTP 200 grain bullets that I resized to.427 with a good healthy load of Unique . I even shoot a few lead bullets loaded with Unique too . My camera went missing and I finally found it exactly where I placed it , you know where I wouldn't loose it ?
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Curious, why did you resize the bullets? I didn't read through all the posts but I assume you're shooting a new production revolver whose groove diameter will be in the .429" - .430" range.
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Cholla
The Hornady xtp is a jacketed bullet .
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Howdy
Weather is pretty crappy outside . So I decided to take a few pictures of my Vintage Hunting stuff .
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Howdy
I have shot smokeless , black powder substitute . Now it's time to start working with black powder . I have Olde Eynsford 2f and 3f to work with . Looking forward to working up these loads .
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Rowdy, 36 grains 3f Old E under 43-215C accurate bullet will get you around 1340fps in the 24 inch barrel. Should get the job done on deer. The 2f is a bit slower cant remember exact but I think it was under 1300.
Swiss powder gets about 20fps faster than Old E. For the money difference I like the Old E although they have started raising the prices since it was first released.
I'm not sure what the velocity will be in the short barrel but it will be a firecracker of a load for sure in that revolver.
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Cliff
Was the olde E as clean as the Swiss ? Looking forward to trying the old E in my Pistol and my Rifle .
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Rowdy, It may not be quite as clean as Swiss but it's darn close. It's really good powder. Your gonna like it ;D
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Hi Rowdy!!! I load 40 grns of FFFG (3F) Olde Eynsford under a 250 grn bullet. Here are some chronos if it helps from SAA clones.
The guns used are a Pietta (Heritage Big Bore) 4 3/4in, Cimarron Old Model P 5 1/2in, and a Uberti Old Model P 7 1/2in.
The load is 40 grns of FFFG (3F) Olde Eynsford under a 250grn PRS Big Lube bullet. All loads fired 10 feet from chrono.
4 3/4 Bbl Pietta:
1. 925
2. 903
3. 927
4. 923
5.934
Average 922.4
Cimarron 5 1/2 Bbl :
1. 1004
2. 967
3. 1048
4. 1070
5. 1047
Average 1027.2
Uberti 7 1/2 Bbl:
1. 1028
2. 1049
3. 1018
4. 1026
5. 1010
Average 1026.2
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Medic
Thanks for the info . you was hard at work burning up powder . I bet you had a good time shooting .Today I got my Shootist magazine and the article was in it on the pp522 .
Cliff Thanks for the good words about the Olde E . I am really hoping this works as good as I think it will .
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Enjoyed your review of the Pietta 44 Frontier Six Shooter in the winter issue of the NCOWS Shootist. On close inspection of the premier article photo I hope you haven't lost the base pin screw. The photo shows it nearly falling from the frame or possibly cross-threaded. Neither a good thing. Hope to see you in early March at the National Convention.
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Johnson
Thank you about the article . As for the base pin screw I still have it and it's not cross threaded either ? Must be a optical illusion . I shoot it on a regular bases . I have got my hands on a couple pounds on Olde Enysford powder and when the snow is gone plan on shooting it . As for the Convention sorry but not this year . Might see you at the National Shoot .
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Howdy
Got a chance to go shooting with my son in law today . We shot targets out to 25 yards . Had a great time , we even set clay birds out and shot them at about 12 yards .
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Howdy
I have loaded up 50 rounds using the Olde E . I have 25 rounds with 2f and 25 with 3f . Want to shoot over the chronie and see what kind of group they produce . Also want to see how clean it shoots .
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Howdy
Finally got a chance to go shoot . The BP loads were THUMPERS and that was the 2f . I hit 5 for 5 at 25 yards . Then shot a few clay birds on a stick at about 12 yards . I had the smoke a rolling and the old E looks good , so far .
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Howdy
The Pietta will be loaded with old E BP and carried during Deer season .
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Howdy back.
I just read your reports from the beginning.
I'm sure glad your Pietta lives up to your expectations. Purty little gun too. ;D
I'm an old fan of the .44WCF cartridge too, both with black and smokeless. Only mine are Uberti made.
I also think you've been having way too much fun with your shooting irons. ;D
Carry on!
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ST
Yes I have had a great time working with the 44wcf . Lately I have been working with a 87 shotgun preparing for Turkey season . I love to Turkey hunt , and Turkey is Excellent eating .
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Howdy
I did a little trading and came up with a Traditions 44wcf . Have only shot it once and it did ok BUT I prefer the Cimarron .
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Congrats on the trade. Both are Pietta's, correct. Are there many differences? What are they, in general?
Is this a new Traditions or older? Main question is, does it have a transfer bar or firing pin?
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Spent Tuesday evening fitting new grips to my PP522s. One set is Colt and one is Cimarron. ;D
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Close up view. Top is Colt, bottom is Cimarron.
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Dan
Excellent pictures . How do they shoot , or should I say which shoots the best ;D ;D ;D ;D
BRS
The traditions has the transfer bar which means it like a Ruger , have shot it and at 25 yards I can hit a 12 inch plate .I shot a few rounds of black powder through it . Actually that was a mistake grabbed the wrong box of ammo .
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Daniel Dodge,
Who's grips did you use on the P522's? Colt's -- Triple K -- some other
I am glad the grips worked on your gripframes. I tried Tri K on Cim Uberti's and they did not work.
Nice looking pairs of revolvers there.
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BRS et al,
I bought those grips from Dixie Gun Works. I did not install them for a long time because I did not have a way to secure them and keep them from slipping on the frame. I finally figured out I could epoxy some wood on the inside of the grip to keep if from shifting on the frame. I cut up a clothespin and used that. I also marked the grips where they overhung the frame and sanded them down to fit better. The only thing that I did not like is the grips are just a hair too short and the bottom of the frame hangs out about a 16th of an inch.
Here is a close up of where the frame sticks out a hair.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/kost/IMG_0899_zpsztyweclg.jpg)
Here are pics of the inside of the grips.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a252/kost/IMG_0902_zpsx9k1of8h.jpg)
Here are the links for the grips and grip screw set.
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=4676&osCsid=hv998kclbkjncngq6svl38i6p1
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=6117&osCsid=hv998kclbkjncngq6svl38i6p1
They are not a perfect fit as the Colt's but they are pretty decent. They are actually a little thinner in the hand and feel good for me. The only shooting I've done with them is at a SASS match and they work great for that. The Pietta's actually came with lighter action the then the Colts. I put better springs in the Colts and now they are very similar in my hands. I shot the colts in one match, but I don't think I want to use them all the time.
Hope this helps,
DD
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DD
Thanks for posting the pictures . The grips look real good . I like a thin grip on my pistols .
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Daniel,
Thanks for the detailed pictures and info. They really look nice and it is hard telling that differential unless up close.
Nice job and clever idea.
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Howdy
Here is a picture of my pp522 and a El Paso John Wayne rig .
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Nice holster, I have one just like it. Only it is a Cross-Draw, Left-hand. It fits my Cimarron Artillery model 45C very nice.
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Lefty
Thanks , You just can't beat a El Paso rig . Over the years they have always delivered a Quality product .
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Rowdy:
Did you refinish the grips on that revolver?
CC Griff
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Lefty
Thanks , You just can't beat a El Paso rig . Over the years they have always delivered a Quality product .
I have the Galco Duke holsters , no longer made. I bought the set in the early 1990's. They were made here in Phoenix, I bought them at the Galco factory store.
This set is my rig for my Colt Custom Shop 44/44-40 dual cylinder set, 4 3/4" blued, CCH.
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CCG
All I did with the grips was several coats of rubbing alcohol . Just used a Tee shirt and wiped and wiped and it came out good .
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Thanks. It does look good. I may do that myself.
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Howdy
Got a chance to go shooting after work . Today I shot the Hornady XTP bullets over a good load of unique powder . I had a nice group at 20 yards . Hope to catch the Ground Hogs out feeding in the beans tomorrow , if I do he's had a BAD DAY.
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Howdy
These are the XTP loads for the 44wcf .
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Howdy
Finally got the drop on a couple ground hogs . The 44wcf did an excellent job . Plan on carrying it in Deer season . Might use it on a doe if she gets to close .
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Howdy Rowdy,
Got a question.
Do you eat them ground hogs? Or you just shoot as pest control?
I ear they are quit edible. But I wouldn't know. We don't have them in my neck of the woods across the big Atlantic pond.
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ST
Yes you can eat them , and the young ones are pretty tasty . These critters are bad around live stock , they dig holes for dens to live in . And cattle and Horses step in the hole and break a leg . Hope this answers your question .
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When I was a kid and would bring in a young one my Grandmother would power boil them and fix them. I never considered them real tasty but they are edible. If you like squirrel or rabbit you would like them. Groundhogs eat the best of vegetables and grasses which is why you always have them in alfalfa and clover fields. Very hard on tractor and equipment axles when you run in a hole.
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Cliff
When I was a kid I was always out hunting . I would drag in all kinds of stuff for Mom to cook , and she was always a good sport and would cook for us . That was when kids were able to go out hunting and we hauled our guns to school and NO ONE got shoot ?
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Howdy
Well it's Deer season in Ky . I have carried my 44wcf and plan on using it , if I get a Doe close enough to shoot . I used my Buck tag opening day .The 73 Winnie in 44wcf does a GREAT JOB .
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Hello Rowdy
Been looking at buying one of these myself. I would like to know what the sights are like. Are they correct for the 1st generation style with the v notch rear and narrow front sight or are they the more modern type.
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See reply #10 on this thread for photos:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,54046.0.html (http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,54046.0.html)
CC Griff
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Thanks Griff
You answered my question
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Howdy
Has anyone been shooting lately . I am planning on shooting this afternoon . There weather lately has been Crappy . It's raining now but I figured I could shoot between showers .
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I shoot every chance I get, much to my wife's chagrin.
Lately has been cast bullets in the H&R Topper that Santa Claus brought me some 42 years ago.
I finally got my 1866 Sporting Rifle reassembled after refinishing the stock, so some 44-40 shooting will ensue shortly.
Finally I am going to get back into regular practice with my trusty .44 Special as soon as the days get a little longer.
CHT
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Hi Rowdy! Long time no post for me.
I've been quite a bit but have been playing with a new toy. Steyr SSG 69 PII .308 sniper with a NightForce scope that took me 3 years of scrimping my pesos for.
But I have been smoking up my Cimarron BP frame thumb buster as well. Black powder .45 Colt.
Being right here next to the CMP's new range in Talladega helps motivate me to go shooting. Nice covered bays and heated/cooled rest rooms on the line help with the weather in relation to that.
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Howdy
Spring is finally HERE so who's shooting ? I have spotted a few ground hogs and plan on using my 44wcf to terminate them . A 200 grain bullet and 35 grains of old E will do an Excellent job .
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Howdy
The 44wcf is still shooting good . Preparing for Deer season , I always carry a hand gun . And always like to carry the same caliber in rifle and pistol . Don't wont to stick a 45 colt in my 44wcf rifle .
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I hope you have a great season and stuff the freezer!
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Medic
Thanks , I like Steaks . I love Steak and Taters .
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Howdy
I grabbed my 44wcf and went out shooting . I had forgotten how good that pistol shot . I recently purchased a Star bm and have been playing with it . It's a Great shooter also . Single actions and 1911 are my favorites .
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Those Star BMs are fun ain't they? Haven't purchased one but have shot it recently.
And I need to get my Cimarron out. I haven't shot black powder .45Colts in a year!!! :o
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Medic
Your right the Star BM's are fun to shoot . They are small easy to conceal but big enough your hand fits it . And no I haven't shot no BP in a while . I have loaded unique and it shoots about the same poa as the BP . These aren't no wimpy loads , but they aint no magnum load either . Just trying to copy the original 44wcf loads .
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Howdy
I am getting geared up for Deer season . Went out shooting and the old 44wcf still shoots a good group . l would love to take a nice fat Doe with the pistol . Time will tell .
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I'm late to the party but a big fan of the 44 Special and the 44wcf. All it takes is a spare cylinder to do both. Have to say thought I am partial to the 44wcf over the 44 if you want a lighter bullet (some advantages to that at times.) Liked the first one (7.5") so much so much had to have on in each barrel length. Some of the best guns I own. All of them shoot exceptionally well. The 5.5" gun has to be one of the most accuate SAA guns I have ever shot. That includes a lot of high dollar guns...that don't shoot nearly as well as all three of the Cimarron's did out of the box.
Here is an early group out of the short 44wcf.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XH-foSolv-Y/W1zsFG8JOkI/AAAAAAAAudQ/D8_pMWfpnAodeS-uxMH2nLNjqk_3g2UvQCLcBGAs/s1600/DSC09312.JPG)
And a little later after I made a new set of grips. :)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rC8UeoYigL8/W3xZsJuvhGI/AAAAAAAAuzY/mN-tXgfzjdI4s8AQwync9AEX9ko4uFE7ACEwYBhgL/s1600/IMG_0039.JPG)
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Those grips look real nice Yahoody. Are they real ivory?
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Those grips look real nice. Are they real ivory?
Thanks. Nope not ivory. But I'd bet money dang few could ever tell they aren't. I can't and I have several pairs of real ivory. I made these up a month or so ago and have been real happy with them Including today when I chucked this gun into the gravel road I was shooting on. No harm to the grips or the glue seams which kinda shocked me. Not so good on the gun's finish however.. Frankly I expected the grips to be more fragile.
Here is a post making/impression the grip material...
https://www.coltforum.com/forums/single-action-army/342829-resin-ivory-s-grips-blanks.html#post2836011
I'd likely never shoot an animal at this range..65 yards with a 200gr, 44-40 but nice to know you could. 18" gong. I really like this gun. I like the price even more so when they shoot like this!
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6gT9GhWGoK0/W6mYfuaY80I/AAAAAAAAvKo/sspP63K283c7gS2xPpGuJnNVyOuNHdPWACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_0417_Moment.jpg)
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That resin-ivory is real nice stuff. Nice shooting too. At some point I think I am going to have to get a Uberti Bisley in .44-40 or .38-40 and/or a Uberti Model P in .32-20 and give them bone charcoal and resin-ivory treatment. The Bisley and the .32-20 are in my mind good choices for this because they are either hard to find or insanely expensive, or both, as USFA's or Colt's.
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Howdy
Deer season is almost here . I will be hunting with my 44wcf's . I use a Uberti rifle and carry my Cimarron Pietta . Here is a Buck I killed a few years back .
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Funny now when I think back on it. I was just a kid in '57 when the Model 29 and Blackhawk were first available as 44 mags. I saw the Ruger early on but it was a long time before I ever saw a 29 even though the hand gun I most often got to shoot was a S&W.
Now having the luxury of owning any hand gun available, I don't even own a 44 magnum these days. But I do shoot a lot of 44 Special and 44-40. Both cartridges in handguns primarily, but in lever guns as well. The 44 magnum versions of either are long gone. Never to be replaced.
I killed enough, punched enough paper and rang enough to know what a 44 mag 240gr or 300gr slug will do. But I sure don't turn up my nose at the 200gr lead bullets in a 44-40 these days or a 240gr SWC out of a short 44 Special either.
I'd rather use a SAA of shoot/hunt/carry of any make than a more modern S&W 29 or any Ruger that has been built since. I've carried all of three in the field enough to know the difference and their limitations.
I don't need the heavier bullets or guns Elmer Keith envisioned. I find it funny now looking back thinking all those "old men" so impressed with the 44 Magnum back in the late '50s. I'm older now than they were back in the day. They had a better set up in my mind then that could be had cheap....than most of us only dream about owning now. 1st Gen Colt's made after 1910, any barrel length and in 44-40 or 45 Colt. And ammo still available for them if you just asked. ( I know that having to ask for or order in special 38-40 ammo back then) If a 215gr bullet doing 1200fps from a 44-40 didn't do it for you, all it took was a case full of the holy black under a 255 grs of lead to get a 45 Colt up to 1000fps.
Not much that can be done with a hand gun that 255grs of lead doing 1000fps won't do. And not a lot of folks that want to shoot a steady diet of that load in a lwt weigh SAA.
Over 145 year old designs still as effective as ever. Nice to still see then get used.
44-40 carbine and a 45 Colt SAA. Still just as accurate, reliable and deadly as ever.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-so2KmcmFfsQ/WuyCjWmy2bI/AAAAAAAAtoM/npbaECMQYuUgRzavNXPt2wIxvbWsy_TmgCLcBGAs/s1600/DSC08941.JPG)
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Howdy
Well Deer season is over and I killed a nice Buck with my Winnie 73 rifle in 44wcf . But no Doe with my Pistol , maybe next year ?
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Nice, Rowdy. I have never hunted but I'd like to.
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Howdy
Just wondering if anyone carries a SSA while hunting ? And in what caliber do you prefer ? And what is your favorite caliber to shoot ?
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Rowdy:
I don't hunt but I do a lot of plinking in the woods with my rebored Marlin in 38-55 and I carry a 44 Special Uberti or Colt as a sidearm. The 38-55 is reloaded to about 1600fps and is a pleasure to shoot (it would make a good hunting load).
I have a Uberti carbine in 44 Special which I have not yet shot.
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Nice work on taking your buck with the '73, Rowdy.
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Howdy
The 38-55 is a real sweet heart to shoot . I had a Marlin Cowboy in 38-55 and after THEY opened the chamber up to accommodate a larger lead bullet it shoot Great . Hey Cowboy Guns will still take game today It's just everyone thinks they need a 300 magnum to kill a Deer .
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Howdy
Just wondering if anyone carries a SSA while hunting ? And in what caliber do you prefer ? And what is your favorite caliber to shoot ?
Well....I guess I'm backwards. SOMETIMES I carry a rifle while I'm hunting with a single action, but not always.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Spike_zpszvhvqxpo.jpg) (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/Spike_zpszvhvqxpo.jpg.html)
CHT
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LIKE!!
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Howdy
Congrats on your Deer .
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Howdy
Went shooting today . The 44wcf is a Great Shooter . I enjoy hitting targets , and this revolver is a tack driver .
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Howdy
Got my 44wcf out and shot a few rounds . Still shoots good . Maybe I can take a nice Doe with it this Deer season .
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Hey Rowdy!
Revolver or rifle in 44WCF for hunting?
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MED
When I hunt I carry my 73 winnie and my pistol in 44wcf . My plan for the pistol was for a close Doe . Both weapons are 44 wcf .
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Thanks Rowdy! If I am understanding it correctly in my state all cartridge calibers, Black powder or smokeless, MUST have an expanding soft or hollowpoint bullet for deer hunting.
Only actual loose powder muzzle loaders can use solid led projectiles, and must be minimum 40 caliber.