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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: G.W. Strong on November 15, 2011, 06:05:13 pm

Title: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 15, 2011, 06:05:13 pm
I shot at my first muster in October and had a great time. I pulled my uniform together out of a civil war uniform I own. I want to spend this year improving the authenticity of my kit. I have a four button coat. What is the difference between these and the 5 button coats of the Indian wars period? I think a circa 1880-1885 Cavalry trooper impression seems reasonable for me. I realize the uniforms changed quite a bit over time but I cannot spot the differences. For that time frame what clothing items should I focus on? I have Civil War era union blue trousers and a 4 button blouse. Can they be tailored to work or do I need to start from scratch? I realize I will eventually need to purchase an appropriate blouse, trousers and a hat but I might be able to spread it across a year or two if I prioritize what is most neaded.

Where would you recommend I purchase from if I need to buy?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Old Top on November 15, 2011, 06:16:31 pm
Hopalong Strong,

The uniforms of the period did change but there was so much made for the civil war the sack coat and trousers would be worn for the garrison or field, only real differance would be the shirt which was a blue pull over.  Look as some of the pictures of the time with the soldiers in the field or on garrison duty, very rarely do they wear the sack coat mostly the shirt white suspenders and the skyblue pants.  This did not change very siginifenty untill 1898.  Looking at your uniform in the picture with your post, the changes I would make would be the belt and holsters, for cav the proper weapon would be the colt or the schofield.  You can find most of what you need at Corrico Leather and Coon Creek traders.

Old Top
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 15, 2011, 06:19:14 pm
I have the blue pull over shirt. you can see it peeking out from the top of my coat.

If I go looking for a cavalry hat, who makes a good one?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 15, 2011, 06:55:56 pm
Coon Creek Old West has most everything you need.  The 4 button sack was issue to 1872, and worn up until 1880 or so, so thats fine.  THe sky blue trousers did are fine clear up to 1902.  THe regulations for the pants stripe changed in 1872.  Everything narrowed 1/2"  IE corporals now wore a 1/2" stripe, sgts a 1" stripe, officers 1 1/2".  Something to be aware of.

www.cooncreekoldwest.com   


Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Pitspitr on November 15, 2011, 07:41:06 pm
Your civil war trousers will do quite nicely up until the mid '80's the only real difference being the quality of the cloth after that the pocket openings changed. The grey wool flannel shirt changed a couple times between the civil war and the time the blue shirt became standard issue in the 1890's. The shirt was considered underwear and not seen in polite company until fashion changed in the 1890's (think of the acceptance of the bra as outerwear after Madonna made it popular in the 1980's) There was a more or less expirimental model during 1876, but most shirts were grey. The 5 button blouse was more fitted than the 4 button sack coat and usuallly lined while the sack coat were mostly unlined. The thing that can help you in your change over is the fact that civil war equipage was used even after new regulations were published until the material on hand was expended. I would suggest reading The US Army in the West 1870-1880 by Douglas McChristian or Army Blue by John P. Langellier. Of course your uniform will be like anything else; a question of your finances versus the availabllity of qood quality reproductions and your desire to do a quality persona. If you attend the Dept. of Missouri or Grand Musternext year I can show you most of the items you are wondering about.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 15, 2011, 08:24:45 pm
Another good supplier is

www.quartermastershop.com   

Pricey, but high quality.  Mostly though, I like their site, because it shows all the uniforms, how they look in relation to each other.

Another nod for John P. Langellier.  Great reference material.  You can find a lot of his and other books on ebay.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Trailrider on November 15, 2011, 10:26:38 pm
One other thing to be considered is whether you are portraying a garrison troop or one in the field.  Troops, including officers wore about anything they had available for operations in the field. That included elements of civilian clothing, including hats, coats, trowsers (sic for spelling).  According to Lt. John Bourke, Gen. Crook's aide-de-camp, on the Big Horn & Yellowston Expedition of 1876, "We looked more like a pack of brigands than a military organization."  Everybody saved their "good" uniforms for garrison duty.  Gen. Crook didn't even wear a uniform. He had a canvas hunting suit and a pith helmet...no insignia at all. There are photos of Third Cavalry officers and men, wearing 1872 jackets, Civil War sack coats, buckskin jackets.  Headgear included kepis, bummer's caps, civilian straw hats purchased at a sutller's store. 

Even holsters, belts, etc., were not necessarily issued regulation gear! A lot of CW gear including Pattern 1863 full flap holsters continued to be used until the 1881 Patterns began to be issued, and maybe after that.  Some of those had the flaps cut to a rounded 3/4 style. A bunch of 1872 Pattern holsters were issued with a Hoffman swivel, which proved very problematic, dumping pistols with the holsters on the ground! Company commanders had their saddlers modify them. Some company commanders in the Southwest even designed their own open-top holsters and issued them to their troops.

In other words, you just need enough to identify yourself as a trooper or officer to "citizens" (as civilians were called in those days). 
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 16, 2011, 10:00:35 pm
What I am understanding from all this is I am not too far off and can continue with my current kit until I aquire better gear.

I will make the black hat my first purchase.

If the 4 button coat was still in use would chevrons be added? I'm sure the yellow piping at the collar and cuffs would not have been added but chevrons seem like something that were added by the troopers themselves as they advanced in rank.

I think a 1874 5 button coat will be next.

I have to tailor the trousers because they are too baggy to wear with the cavalry boots. While I am tailoring them I may add rank stripes.


Is there any reason (etiquite) I cannot portray a sergeant? I was thinking of a sadalry sergent since I am a bootmaker and leatherworker in real life. Not as a career , just as a sideline.  I plan on making some cavalry boots and other items available in the future.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: pony express on November 16, 2011, 10:06:52 pm
You can portray any rank you like, no need to start off as a private in GAF. I've been a private so far....maybe I'll spend a few bucks and "promote" myself before next year.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on November 16, 2011, 10:52:28 pm
put on enough stripes too look like a zebra if you like.
Rank above elbow
Service stripes on forearm
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Pitspitr on November 17, 2011, 05:08:02 am
If the 4 button coat was still in use would chevrons be added?
By Regulation or by practice?
Post CW Regulation didn't allow chevrons on the blouse until March 20 1876, but it was done cmmonly anyway. And no, they didn't add piping to a 4-button sack coat that I'm aware of.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Niederlander on November 17, 2011, 06:10:43 am
"Is there any reason (etiquite) I cannot portray a sergeant? I was thinking of a sadalry sergent since I am a bootmaker and leatherworker in real life. Not as a career , just as a sideline.  I plan on making some cavalry boots and other items available in the future."


No problem there.  I was a Lieutenant in real life, but I portray a Captain now because I'm just TOO OLD to be a Lieutenant anymore!
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on November 17, 2011, 08:35:10 am
Was a captain portray a captain, back in the day there were plenty of antique captains so have not promoted myself.  Were I to would have to have the plexiglas installed
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 17, 2011, 02:18:12 pm
I figured a senior NCO like a Sergeant would be good since I am to old to portray a convincing private.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: St. George on November 17, 2011, 02:37:35 pm
Not true...

During the Indian Wars, promotions were few and far between in the old 'Indian Fighting Army'.

It wasn't uncommon to see 30-year Privates at all, and rank often came about when senior men retired or died.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 17, 2011, 02:57:26 pm
Not true...

During the Indian Wars, promotions were few and far between in the old 'Indian Fighting Army'.

It wasn't uncommon to see 30-year Privates at all, and rank often came about when senior men retired or died.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

How about nearly 50 year old privates!
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: St. George on November 17, 2011, 04:22:20 pm
As I said - common for the time.

A number of men 'found a home' in the Army and didn't require much beyond food, clothing and shelter, and with regular duties to be performed, they were effectively institutionalized.

Until the Army adopted the 'up or out' policy regarding promotion in the 1970's, 'career Corporals' were still around after Vietnam, until the whole military shrank its numbers.

There's always a place for a guy who is happy doing the less-heroic stuff, so they'd do basic maintenance and clean-up as well as help where needed, and in any large organization, that's appreciated.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Curley Cole on November 17, 2011, 05:48:26 pm
(http://sdough.smugmug.com/Art/SheBang-2010/shebang29/1083301683_GewzU-M.jpg)

Here are me and Old Top shooting the military/victorian SheBang match last year at 5Dogs. As by his Alias you can tell he is a sarge. (really waz for about 30 years, but a different uniform.

show us pix as you pull stuff together.

also here is Top with his blouse:

(http://sdough.smugmug.com/Art/Just-For-Fun/top6/220375041_roZRG-M.jpg)

curley
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 17, 2011, 07:50:44 pm
Here is another pic of my makeshift uniform.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Bow View Haymaker on November 17, 2011, 07:52:10 pm
As far as hats goes, I think that was as much an individual thing as any other part of the uniform, at least while in the field.  The ones in your picture would probably work fine .  I just took a 20 yr old Baily that originaly had a "modern" shape and reformed it into a shape that looked more historic and added hat cords and thats it.  It's light grey in color with some honest age to it.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Evelyn Canarvon on November 17, 2011, 11:06:27 pm
 ::)  Not so easy for some of us!   :-*
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on November 17, 2011, 11:31:01 pm
Everybody notice the color of old tops stripes and the stripes on the pants, damn few of us grunts out there in the sea of yellow and red
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: pony express on November 18, 2011, 12:00:46 am
Everybody notice the color of old tops stripes and the stripes on the pants, damn few of us grunts out there in the sea of yellow and red

That's what I've noticed. Well, I only have full length infantry rifles, and pull on boots don't like my feet anymore......so infantry it is for me! You may notice  also, when you go to a muster, there's not usually enough enlisted men around to keep all the officers you see there out of trouble.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Curley Cole on November 18, 2011, 02:18:15 am
(http://sdough.smugmug.com/Art/SheBang-2010/shebang61/1083307159_8B3Au-M.jpg)

Here is the gun Old Top usually totes around...the one in the pix they stuck in his hands to be in a Veterans Day color guard...he was really proud that day.

enjoy the pix
curley
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 18, 2011, 09:39:14 am
I have another question. In the Time Life old west series book on the soldiers I have had since I was a kid there are some period plates of uniforms. One of the figures is an artilleryman wearing a white pith helmet. It is described as disliked by the soldiers.

When was the british style pith helmet issued? Was it only issued in white or was it also issued in khaki? The Brits issued both as various points and I recall reading we ordered them from Great Britian for issue to our troops but I could be wrong on that. 

The reason I ask it I just bought a 1884 brown/khaki artillery uniform from Drydock and I wondered if it might be apropriate to wear this uniform with a pith helmet.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: pony express on November 18, 2011, 10:09:14 am
Check out the 2011 Grand Muster pics, you will see Cowtown Scout wearing one of the pith helmets in Khaki(and it's an origianal one at that, I have heard).
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 18, 2011, 10:32:27 am
Very useful site:

http://www.history.army.mil/html/museums/uniforms/survey_uwa.pdf
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 18, 2011, 10:38:12 am
And for the helmets:

http://www.nyc-techwriters.com/militaria/american_helmets1.htm
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Curley Cole on November 18, 2011, 02:54:40 pm
(http://sdough.smugmug.com/Art/Just-For-Fun/top11/242056287_swLK6-M.jpg)

we always like tryin on hats


curley
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Cowtown Scout on November 18, 2011, 09:19:01 pm
Check out the 2011 Grand Muster pics, you will see Cowtown Scout wearing one of the pith helmets in Khaki(and it's an origianal one at that, I have heard).

Indeed it is an original.  Printed inside the sweat band is:
Wm. H. Horstmann Co.
Philadelphia
Contract Aug 6, 1898

It appears to have been white but was Tea Stained for wear in the field.  Super light weight.
Scout 8) 8)
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 18, 2011, 10:41:25 pm
So then I guess I have to pair my rifles with my clothing.

With the clothing I wear in my pics I could shoot one of my 50/70 rifles, either my  m1870 Allin Conversion Trapdoor or my 1871 Springfield Rollingblock. For field uniform use I could use it with my 45/70 trapdoor rifle or carbine though I should probably be looking at an 1880s or 90s uniform to be truly correct.

I also have a krag that I love to shoot.

With a 1884 brown/khaki artillery uniform a pith helmet what rifle would I choose? I'm sure either the 45/70s would be good. How about the Krag?

Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on November 18, 2011, 11:04:14 pm
Late 80s and 90s.  Mid to late 90s when the khaki colored uniform came in helmet went to Khaki
http://www.nyc-techwriters.com/militaria/american_helmets1.htm

Grapeshot and Drydock know alot about them
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 18, 2011, 11:16:39 pm
How late was the 1884 brown/khaki uniform worn?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 18, 2011, 11:17:21 pm
By the way, I should say thanks for all the helpful information.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Old Top on November 19, 2011, 12:30:04 am
Hopalong.

I beleive that it was in one form or another untill 1902 when the next uniform regulations came out.

Old Top
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 19, 2011, 07:40:14 am
The 1884 was worn from 1884 clear to 1908 or so,  was seen in the apache campaigns of the southwest, as well as Cuba, and the Phillipines.  I've got Edison newsreels of troops in Tampa and Daquerie, wearing 1884s.  Most of the regulars, as well as the 1st USV (Rough Riders) were wearing them at the San Juan heights.  The first 1898 Kahki's did not reach the troops until the 2nd week of July.  So you could use most any .45-70 trapdoor, and any of the Krags, with the 1884.

In his picture up there, Cowtown scout is wearing the Officer modified version of the 1884.  To the left here, I have on the 1898 Kahki.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on November 19, 2011, 04:15:28 pm
Last year Scout and I were on the color guard for the opening ceremony, He in his 84 Cav and I wore my 84 Inf, we had a sailor and a couple of cav and arty guys.  Spect now days that is what ya call a joint operation.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 20, 2011, 05:21:25 pm
with the later canvas leggings, what sort of shoe was worn? Are there good sites or books for information about military footwear of the second half of the 19th cenury? I have made shoes and boots for years. That feels like good winter projects in the making.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 20, 2011, 05:36:23 pm
From 1885 to 1902 the standard army shoe was a black, leather soled ankle boot, 4-6 eyelets and 3 hooks.  Minor variations from different manufacturers.  The Leggings give you a great deal of flexibility, most any black leather healed shoe or boot will work.  My favorite is my old USN Boondockers..
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: pony express on November 20, 2011, 05:49:24 pm
Here's the only place I know of that makes the correct shoe.

http://www.civilwarboots.com/war_boots.asp

Unfortunately for me, he only lists up to 11 1/2, with no EE width.

Missouri Boot and Shoe used to make them, but some antique piece of equipment he needed to make them broke, or wore out, and apparently there's not enough demand for them to replace it.

I've just been wearing some cheap black oxford type shoes from Wal Mart. Hardest part seems to be finding something with a heel properly shaped so you don't end up walking on the leather leggihg strap, and wear it out.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 20, 2011, 06:31:26 pm
Since I am 10 1/2 EEEE I have had to learn to make my own period correct footwear for any reenacting I have done. I will try my hand at these.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 20, 2011, 06:34:41 pm
Can anyone provide me with clear photos of their shoes of this style?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on November 20, 2011, 09:15:01 pm
These from US Hist website good enough?

http://www.ushist.com/indian-wars_uniforms_us_iw_f.shtml
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Niederlander on November 20, 2011, 09:52:45 pm
You guys might try Eureka Arsenal.  He carries brown prison shoes in most sizes, and it's easy to dye them black.  They look really good.  If you want a black ankle-high boot with a cap toe, search Stacy Adams Madison Boot on e-Bay.  They make a really good barracks-type shoe.  Hope that helps.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: pony express on November 20, 2011, 09:59:52 pm
These from US Hist website good enough?

http://www.ushist.com/indian-wars_uniforms_us_iw_f.shtml

I have never heard any good things about ordering from them. Haven't tried it myself, but they seem to get bad reviews online.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Pitspitr on November 21, 2011, 06:10:12 am
I have never heard any good things about ordering from them. Haven't tried it myself, but they seem to get bad reviews online.
+1

Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on November 21, 2011, 10:25:46 am
I have never heard any good things about ordering from them. Haven't tried it myself, but they seem to get bad reviews online.

I have not ordered anything from them either.  Simply gave link to provide pics of period shoes.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 21, 2011, 12:17:34 pm
I found some nice pictures online of a pair of surviving originals. I think I can make these. They are similar in many ways to Federal Brogans. It will take a few months but I will post pictures when I have finished them.



In the meantime I have questions about hats.  (Yes, I am full of questions!) The hat I am wearing in my pitcutre has a bound edge and the brim looks too wide to be a regulation hat. I was planning on trimming it to 3 1/2 inches and using steam and hat stiffener to give it a more military shape. I will add the wool hat cord I just ordered form Coon Creek yesterday. Does that sound like a good idea?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 21, 2011, 05:32:22 pm
Well, the narrower brim would be correct, but the color would still be wrong.  Should be a light brown/tan color.  (what the army considered "Drab" back then)  Maybe just pin up the front and call it "F" troop!   ;D
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 21, 2011, 06:19:30 pm
Alright then, I will leave it alone and just let it be what it is, a cowboy hat.

I have a black one on order from Coon creek. I will order a drab one as well.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 21, 2011, 06:35:07 pm
You gotta be careful 'round here, we're real good at spendin' your money fer ya!   :o ::) ;D
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 21, 2011, 06:45:24 pm
I'm pretty good at that myself.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 21, 2011, 06:52:35 pm
I got my 1884 brown/drab uniform today form Col. DryDock, and I wanted to know what shirt would be worn under the blouse?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 21, 2011, 07:02:16 pm
THe blue pullover.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 21, 2011, 07:23:43 pm
Excellent. Something I already own. That is a nice change of pace.  :D
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 21, 2011, 08:17:35 pm
Here is what I have now:

Body:
Civil war union infantry private’s trousers and sack coat

1884 artillery Sergeant  khaki coat and trousers

1884 artillery Sergeant blue sack coat (on its way)

Blue pullover shirt


Head:
Tan Hat in pictures

Black campaign hat (on order)

Federal Kepi

British Pith helmet. I think I may be able to adjust the covering to make it US style.


Feet:
I have a pair of leggings on order

I have artillery/cavalry boots.

I have federal rough out brogans.

Belts:
Civil war belt and US Buckle (Oval)

Indian Wars Belt and US Buckle (Rectangle)

Mills belt for 45/70

Mills belt for 12 gauge

Civil war style suspenders.



Now the question is how to mix and match the pieces to put a uniform or two together out of what I have. Any suggestions
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: pony express on November 21, 2011, 08:55:11 pm
Looks like you've got the basics covered.Your brogans will work with the leggins just fine, unless you get involved with some serious stitch counters. You could add stripes to the CW trousers to go with the blue jacket you ordered. I'm not sure when the black campaign hat gave way to the drab one(I usually consult Drydock on these date things), but the Kepi will work up to 1895, when they changed the style quite a bit. Just change to the later style insignia(if Artillery changed, I don't know cause I'm infantry) I think your helmet would be goot for a later time frame also.

I have not ordered anything from them either.  Simply gave link to provide pics of period shoes.


Sorry, I guess I missed that, they do have allot there that you can use for research, even though they're not the best to order from
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on November 21, 2011, 09:36:59 pm
At some point I will get a Company Grade Frock Coat CW and will need proper 6th Inf Captains Epaulettes.  Thinking about getting the disks and bars from us hist as they are the only place I have seen them.  Know of others?

Last year just in time for Winter Range Uniform Contest got a pair of dark blue company grade trousers from Milk Creek.  Really nice quality wool and constructions.
Darn near impossible to get a response from them for E-mail questions.  Was very helpful on phone

Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Pitspitr on November 22, 2011, 07:48:28 am
I'm amazed at how quick they (Coon Creek) are. I placed an order for a holster Late Thursday/early Friday and it was waiting for me in my mailbox yesterday when I got home from the football game. (State Champs! Wooo Hooo!)
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 22, 2011, 07:22:25 pm
I'm not sure when the black campaign hat gave way to the drab one(I usually consult Drydock on these date things)

OK, that begs the question, when did the hat change and when did the black one stop being used?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on November 23, 2011, 09:51:06 am
Could spill coffee on the grey hat and maybe it would become drab or jus claim you are john wayne.  He wore a lot of grey hats (silver belly?)
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 23, 2011, 01:21:23 pm
The campaign hat changed from black to brown drab in 1882/3.  Senior officers could still wear a black campaign hat if they so chose, but rarely did. 
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 23, 2011, 02:15:48 pm
How long was that next drab hat worn for?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 23, 2011, 02:36:34 pm
With minor variations, until 1942.  The big change was in 1911, when the "Montana Peak" crease was made mandatory.  Prior to that, there was no real "regulation" crease, though most commanders preferred the fore and aft fedora style crease.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 23, 2011, 02:50:38 pm
Do are you saying the montana peak hat of WWI vintage and the fore and aft crease hat that charged up San Juan hill are the same hats with different creases? That is fascinating!

Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: St. George on November 23, 2011, 04:34:45 pm
The M1889 Campaign Hat was worn with a fore-and-aft crease from it's date of issuance, until the advent of the Great War.

The 'snowflake' ventilation holes changed to 'eyelet'  in 1911, the popular style of the 'Montana Peak' was adopted service-wide, and that hat became known as the 'Service Hat/Campaign Hat' - issued to all soldiers and Marines until mid-WWII, when it was discontinued as an item of general issue.

That hat - with color variations - would be seen on Drill Instructors and Rifle Team shooters and still serves in that capacity today.

It saw little if no overseas service during the Great War and WWII - due in large part to the fact that it was virtually un-packable in dufflebags/barracks bags - the European-style 'Overseas Cap' was universal after the first American contingent of the AEF set foot in France in 1917 - but it was worn by those who were already stationed in the Far East.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 24, 2011, 02:10:37 pm
Is the coon creek hat the correct color?  I ordered their black one because I figured black is black. It will tell me how their sizes run. If it fits and I like the look of its quality I will order the drab one.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 24, 2011, 02:17:30 pm
Its correct insofar as any light brown is correct.  The hats were sourced from many different contractors back then, and each had its own shade of brown "Drab".  Same with the "Sky blue" trousers.  The later Kahki uniforms also varied slightly from different contractors.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 24, 2011, 10:44:04 pm
Can someone elaborate on the ventelation holes? I hear about the 'snowflake' ventilation holes being changed to 'eyelet' and I'm in the dark. Were there others? When were the forms in use?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: St. George on November 24, 2011, 11:19:53 pm
M1889 Campaign Hats

WAR DEPARTMENT,
Quartermaster General’s Office

Specifications for Fur Campaign Hats.

Mixture.—To be composed of fur in the following proportions and kinds, for twenty-four (24) dozen hats: Fifteen (15) pounds Y. C. Ex. Ex. coney; thirty (30) pounds Y. C. No. 1 coney; sixteen (16) pounds W. C. No. 1 coney; twelve (12) pounds W. C. mottled coney; five (5) pounds W. C. hare’s bellies; ten pounds blown nutria; ten (10) pounds American rabbit.

Weight.—Hat bodies to be weighed, four and three-fourths (4 ¾ ounces heavy.

Shape.—Block to be five and three-fourths (5 ¾ inches deep to center of tip.

Brim.—To be two and three-fourths (2 ¾ inches wide in front and rear, and three (3) inches at sides; and to have three rows of stitching on edge.

Color.—To be drab, shade of standard sample.

Trimmings.—To be trimmed with eight-ligne union band, same quality and style as on hat, to be sewed on by hand. Sweat to be an imported lined leather, two and one-forth (2 ¼ inches wide, sewed to the reed by zigzag stitch. Each side of hat to have an opening for ventilation consisting of small punched holes of size, and arranged in design, as on standard sample hat; the center of design to be about three and one-quarter (3 ¼ inches from brim.
The hats to be doe-finished, as per sample.
To be packed three hats in each band-box.

Adopted February 8 1889, in lieu of specifications of December 14, 1883, which are hereby canceled.

S. B. HOLABIRD,
Quartermaster General, U. S. A.

As stated above - the 'snowflake' ventilation holes were in the original M1889 Campaign Hat.

They'd stay like that - with minor variations - until 1911, when the enamelled eyelet was installed, and the 'Montana Peak' became the official shape of the Campaign Hat.

They're punched-through holes in the shape of a snowflake - allowing the hat to breathe for the wearer.

Color-wise, the M1889 and M1911 Campaign Hats were closer to a 'Doeskin' color, when new - darkening over the period of issue to a very Dark Brown, after WWII.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!



Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 24, 2011, 11:56:32 pm
I woudl love to see a picture of this snowflake hole. My mind makes it more elaborate than it probably was
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: St. George on November 25, 2011, 12:15:45 am
It's pretty elaborate.

Looks just like a multi-pointed snowflake made of small punched holes.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 25, 2011, 04:56:41 am
(http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=40687.0;attach=37632;image)

Hopalong, are you shooting an original M1884 Carbine??
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 25, 2011, 05:02:15 am

Could spill coffee on the grey hat and maybe it would become drab or jus claim you are john wayne.  He wore a lot of grey hats (silver belly?)

Funny you should mention that!
For what it's worth, General Leonard Wood's (of Rough Riders fame) slouch hat.

Interesting, isn't it?

 ;)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/willysmb44/SpanAmHat.jpg)
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 25, 2011, 09:13:49 am
Hopalong, are you shooting an original M1884 Carbine??

Yes I am. It is a 1882 Starred caribine from the New York State Militia. It belonged to a friend's Great Grandfather. He took it to Cuba and brought it home after he mustered out after the turn of the century. I think he went to the philippines as well with it but I cannot confirm that at present. It shoots well especially considering its bore condition is not pristine by any stretch of the imagination. I shot a clean match with it though.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: chain blue on November 25, 2011, 08:08:51 pm
Does an officere got to have strips on their trousers.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: pony express on November 25, 2011, 09:20:09 pm
It depends on the exact uniform and year, I think. As far as I know, all the uniforms had stripes untill they came out with the 1899 khaki.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 25, 2011, 09:36:21 pm
can anyone provide me wiht a picture of the snowflake pattern vent?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 25, 2011, 10:06:32 pm
http://www.cowanauctions.com/peek-in-warehouse/item.aspx?ItemId=93937
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: JimBob on November 25, 2011, 10:08:27 pm
I woudl love to see a picture of this snowflake hole. My mind makes it more elaborate than it probably was


http://www.gatling-gun.com/M1902Model1902CampaignHatStarVent.htm
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 25, 2011, 11:01:57 pm
those were very helpful. Was the star pattern regulation? if so when?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: JimBob on November 25, 2011, 11:32:32 pm
those were very helpful. Was the star pattern regulation? if so when?


The 1889 and 1897 Quartermaster specifications "Each side of hat to have an opening for ventilation consisting of small punched holes of size,and arranged in design,as on standard sample hat;the center of design to be about three and one-quarter inches from the brim." Adopted Feb.8,1889

I note some differences in the stars regarding number of holes,but have never really noticed any other pattern but the star one.The previous specification dates from Dec.14,1883.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: liten on November 25, 2011, 11:58:36 pm
 hopalong to your nearest hat maker  they will show a snowflake vent
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: pony express on November 26, 2011, 12:22:26 am
Before the "snowflake" vent, there was also one that had a small round brass screen for a vent. I have seen the screens for sale somewhere, but I can't remember where it was I saw them now.....
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 26, 2011, 07:06:32 am
Yes I am. It is a 1882 Starred caribine from the New York State Militia. It belonged to a friend's Great Grandfather. He took it to Cuba and brought it home after he mustered out after the turn of the century. I think he went to the philippines as well with it but I cannot confirm that at present. It shoots well especially considering its bore condition is not pristine by any stretch of the imagination. I shot a clean match with it though.

That's great Hopalong, I like a gun with history and 1/2 the fun for me is seeing the antique iron come alive on the firing line!

What kind of handgun are you using? Thought about trying a break open Smith&Wesson? Much faster when it comes to a reload.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 26, 2011, 08:05:11 am

That's great Hopalong, I like a gun with history and 1/2 the fun for me is seeing the antique iron come alive on the firing line!

What kind of handgun are you using? Thought about trying a break open Smith&Wesson? Much faster when it comes to a reload.

Right now I am using my Ruger Vaquero in 45LC.


I agree about shooting historical iron. It is so much fun! I will not own a rifle I would not shoot. I have many old rifles and virtually all of them are military and virtually all of them are pre-1950. I particularly like Victorian military rifles and have quite a few interesting ones. Here is a list of a few of my my early (pre 1910) military rifles.

Schützengewehr M1858, Bavarian-1860
Enfield P1853 3-Band Rifled Musket, British-1860
Springfield Rifle Musket Model 1864, American-1863
Enfield Snider MK II*, British-1864
Springfield Trapdoor Model 1870, American-1870
Springfield Remington Rolling Block Model 1871, American-1872
Martini Henry Mk I, British-1874
Martini Henry Mk II, British-1877
Mauser Infanteriegewehr M1871, German-1877
Martini Henry Francotte Rifle, British (Nepal)-1878
Mauser Infanteriegewehr M1871/84,   German-1886
Springfield Trapdoor Model 1874, American-1887
Springfield Trapdoor Carbine Model 1883, American-1889
Infanteriegewehr 1888 Commission Rifle, German-1890
Infanteriegewehr 1888/05 Commission Rifle, German-1890
Mauser M1891 Cavalry Carbine, Argentinian-1899
Repetierstutzen M95/30, Austrian-1900
Krag Model 1898, American- 1902
Mauser Gewehr 1898, German-1905

Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: chain blue on November 26, 2011, 08:46:58 am
I called Quartermaster and they said no a lot of officers did not have strips on field uniforms. That said how wide a strip would say, a first lieutenant have.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: pony express on November 26, 2011, 09:27:27 am
Chain Blue- You're using the same information source I am, Quartemaster's website. They only list 1-1/2" stripes for officers, I believe all officer stripes are the same, regardless of rank. Maybe generals are different, I don't know.

Hopalong....I'm jealous of that list of rifles you have! There's quite a few of them that will work in GAF, pretty much everything but the muzzle loaders and the GEW98. A '71 or '71/84 Mauser Is on my list of "someday I'm gonna get one" list.
There's LOTS of uniform possibilities to go with them, since all the different states had different ones.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Grapeshot on November 26, 2011, 10:04:52 am
(http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m53/Grapeshot_2006/P1010274.jpg)

Officers had a little more leway in uniforms than enlisted.  Trouser stripes for all but staff officers were one and a half inch in branch colors from 1872 to 1919 in the BLUE SERVICE Dress uniforms and the Full Dress Uniforms.  They were also employed in the canvass and Kahki Uniforms until the late 1898 kahki field uniform was fielded late in the Span Am war.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 26, 2011, 10:34:21 am
Hopalong....I'm jealous of that list of rifles you have! There's quite a few of them that will work in GAF, pretty much everything but the muzzle loaders and the GEW98. A '71 or '71/84 Mauser Is on my list of "someday I'm gonna get one" list.
There's LOTS of uniform possibilities to go with them, since all the different states had different ones.

If you ever want to trade for one let me know. I have only one 71 but I have multiple 71/84s. All are shooters.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 27, 2011, 02:39:52 pm
OK, here is another question, in the IW and SAW period  (probably different answers depending on the period) what sword (if any) would be carried by an artillery sergeant? Would it be a regular campaign item or only for dress wear?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 27, 2011, 06:31:10 pm
A mounted (Light/field) artillery sgt. would be authorized to carry the M1840 Light artilery sabre.  By the IWs largly considered a ceremonial/dress item.  Retained in regulations until WW2, and still carried by some ceremonial units to this day.

http://www.arms2armor.com/Swords/1840lart.htm
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 27, 2011, 08:31:56 pm
So I don't need a sword then. That is good news.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 28, 2011, 12:33:18 pm
Next question... What is the proper belt and buckle for an artillery sergeant through the IW and SAW periods? I'm sure it changes over time but I'm not sure when and what.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 28, 2011, 08:18:19 pm
For waist belts,iIn 1874 the oval US of the CW period changed to a rectangular US buckle for all ranks.  This was used until 1904 or so. The Eagle and wreath 1851 NCO buckle continued to be seen clear up to 1900, though not as a regular issue item.  Officers liked them a lot for field use with an enlisted belt, as the officer designated leather of the time tended to be fancy and fragile.  Note the Lt. Colonels belt to your left . . .

Amunition belts were tongue and loop until the issue of the Mills belt, which initialy came with an "H" US plate.  Later Mills belts came with a simple "C" closure.  Check under "Ammo and Waist belts" here :

www.trapdoors.com



                    
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 28, 2011, 08:45:25 pm
Good, I have an oval and a rectangle US buckle for my leather belts and H plates on my Mills belts. All have the US logo. Portraying an NCO do I need the eagle buckle?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 28, 2011, 08:52:10 pm
Nope, all enlisted used the rectangular US buckle after 1874.   Those that had the 1851 often wore them, but the regulations only specified the US buckle.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Pitspitr on November 29, 2011, 06:25:53 am
And they're available. S&S is one source as is, I believe, Dixie Gun works.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 29, 2011, 12:44:33 pm
I got by black campaign hat from Coon Creek yesterday. I was surprised that it had a round crown and a dead flat brim. That got me thinking. That was probably the way they were issued and the soldiers formed their hats themselves. Is this correct?

If so, what shape should a campaign hat have?

Also from a proactical standpoint. The interior of the sat is lined in "satin" with a clear plastic inner liner near the top of the crown. Obviously they hats did not roiginaly have a plastic crown liner in period. How about the satin? It woudl seem to me that the plastic woudl cause the head to be very hot and the satin might even restrict breathing and ventilation as well. Should the crown have any ventilation?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on November 29, 2011, 05:19:46 pm
As you say, thats how they were issued.  SHape it any way you want.  You might want to go thru our Historical pictures thread and see what was done.

The issue hats were unlined.  Plenty of hats were private purchased by troops, and they might very well have had lining.  The initial issue had a spinner type vent called a "Bracher" vent I believe, but this was dropped quickly. Most in the field had no ventilation that can be seen.  A black hat with no ventilation is prefectly appropriate for the mid 1870s to mid 1880s.

The Burgess M1876 posted on another thread has examples of the short lived "Bracher" vent.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on November 29, 2011, 05:26:55 pm
Still can't decide if I want to clue embroidered rifles to the front of mine to cover the 76 -80 period.  If I go CW then the 6th Inf Horn would be proper.  From most photos I see there was no branch insignia on the IW hats.  I seem to be compleled to balance out all the sabers and cannon I see on hats.  If I am going to wear shoulder boards on a blue shirt might as well go totally hollywood and put the rifles on the hat and be done with it.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 29, 2011, 07:19:37 pm
While I am looking at pictures of hats I want to ask about suspenders. Can anyone provide me with a picture of period correct suspenders? I have a pair of white canvas civil war suspenders with an X back and black leather tabs. They look like the pair below.  How are these?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411%2BxAHZQ-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Pitspitr on November 30, 2011, 06:21:02 am
Those are actually probably a later period than the civil war, when most just had button adjustments and no leather tabs.

There wasn't a regulation  that I can find for braces until the late '80s
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on November 30, 2011, 08:15:02 am
Can you let me know what those regs you did find said about braces?


So would these look appropriate for the IW and SAW period.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on December 01, 2011, 05:27:19 pm
One more question... solid pewter buttons vs stamped tin buttons. I see them both on repros. when were each used?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: FTrooper on December 02, 2011, 04:55:28 pm
Another source for pre-1872 epaulet insignia is Legendary Arms.  They also carry the full dress epaulets and the post-8172 shoulder knots.

http://www.legendaryarms.com/comofemcir.html


As for the "darb" campaign hats, this is always a fun topic and often VERY overlooked.  So without getting out the big book of hats (we are remodeling and getting to some bookshelves ain't as easy as I'd like since that is the "temporary storage room").  Here is a basic rundown.

Pre-1872  The black hardee hat beat and bent any way you want it.  Sometimes the top is "telescoped" to make a lower crown.  We also see alot of civilian private purchase hats.

1872 black hat is the one with an almost diamond shaped brim and folds up like a chapeau bra.  These are flimsy and shoddy and fall apart or loose shape when wet.  Army attempts to cut the brims down and stitch them to make them cap their shape.  It fails and the soldiers won't take them.  They end up issued to prisoners. (pictures exist of them still worn by some troopers as late as 1881)

The 1876 is a black hat is supposed to have a folded brim and a "propeller" or "Bracher vent", but they can also be found with a simple metal vent.  Hat cord and insignia are sometimes seen on this hat.

1883-This hat does not have the folded edge, but the reinforced stitching.  There is a screen vent about the size of a dine on each side.  They were made in drab and black.  Senior officers (Generals) were supposed to wear black.  A little know order gave the company commanders the choice of black or drab for their troop/company, but the whole company had to wear the same color.  By this time the lighter color had proven its worth (alot of private purchase white and light grey hats are known on the 1870's) and I have never seen a picture of a trooper or company in the black hats.  Hat cords and insignia are not seen on this hat.

1889-The screen vent is replaced with the the "snowflake punch".  This hat is the one worn during the Spanish American War.  Hat cords are still not worn, but the M1896 cap insignia is.  Originally in front and then on the left side as crop badges are placed on them during the Span-Am War.

1899-The screen vent returns but is now 1" big.  There are also "experimental" tropical versions with a corrugated papier-mache band between the hat and sweatband to help airflow.  The hat cord returns (with the acorns as opposed to tassels) and the M1896 insignia is back to the front (some had it stenciled in black ink like we see on canteens and haversacks).  You also see a trend towards just the regimental numbers and company letters in brass on the front.

1902-The folded brim is back and the "star punched" vent is introduced. we also see the chinstrap/stampede cord added.  Insignia is now the cord with bronze regimental numbers and company letters and no branch insignia (except for certain units like coast artillery and engineers).

All of the above hats are supposed to be flat brimmed and creased for and aft "like a fedora" (what movie is THAT from?)  However, even in the 1880's we see them with flat tops and even with the brims folded in front and/or back (not unlike F-Troop, I think it more a matter of poor storage than fashion)...in the 1890's the popular civilian "Montana peak" starts to show up and is quite common by the Span-AM war.

1911-The hat is now a darker drab (almost brown) than before, stitched brim not folded, four metal grommets (front, back, sides), chinstrap, Montana peak, and the only insignia is the cords.

1921-The hat is even a little darker (with a more greenish tent), the stitching is eliminated and the crown is lower and rounder (still has the four "Montana" dents).  This is the hat still worn by Army and Marine Drill Instructors.  Again, only the hat cord is authorized until the post WW2 era. (except marines who do wear the globe/eagle/anchor).

Again, this is off the top of my head (yes I know ALOT of unimportant information) and there could be an error or two.

Chris Fischer
F-Troop
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: FTrooper on December 02, 2011, 05:03:59 pm
Suspenders-

The proper ones would be the M1883 (first regulation issue) and no one makes them (yet)...They are very rare and rarely even show up in books!  I MAY be working with a guy to repro them, but it is still probably a year off at this time.

Hoaplong:  You might want to invest in one or both of these books:

http://www.amazon.com/U-S-Army-Uniforms-Equipment-1889/dp/0803295529/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1322866723&sr=8-3

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130441274829?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

I will admit that a good 90% of each book is the same material.  If you are more interested in Span-Am period I can not recommend the second one (1897) enough.  If you want to cover the mid to late 1880's to Span-Am, the you are going to want the 1889.

Chris Fischer
F-Troop
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on December 02, 2011, 06:35:15 pm
Thanks for the responses. They were most helpful.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: liten on December 03, 2011, 10:09:42 pm
the first of the drab hats had the folded brim
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on December 05, 2011, 10:26:32 pm
What exactly is a folded brim?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on December 06, 2011, 08:08:33 am
Edge of hat brim folded back on itself and stiched down to re-enforce or stiffen brim

You still see it on some hats produced today
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on December 06, 2011, 08:49:55 am
do you have a picture of a reproduction or original that woudl help me wrap my mind around this?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: St. George on December 06, 2011, 08:51:10 am
Look for a picture of the WWI Campaign Hat - it's most visible there.

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Pitspitr on December 06, 2011, 10:36:25 am
What exactly is a folded brim?
It almost looks like the hem on your blue jeans
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: FTrooper on December 06, 2011, 01:40:39 pm
HOPALONG, Go the the thread about the High Quality M1876 hat.  You can definitely see it there.

Liten is correct, the first 1000 drab hats in 1883 were made with the folded brim (there we really just supposed to be drab 1876 hats).  When the official regs were published in 1884, the folded brim was deleted in favor of the stitching.

This is a superb book on headgear of the post Civil War military with alot of great pictures.  But it is a bit pricey.  Mine is in storage until we are done remodeling...so I can't double check my facts right now.

http://www.amazon.com/Hats-Off-Head-Dress-1872-1912/dp/0764309560/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323200330&sr=1-2

Chris Fischer
F-Troop
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: liten on December 06, 2011, 08:29:53 pm
its not a easy job folding the brim over either, and geting the stitching correct ???
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on December 06, 2011, 09:03:56 pm
I would imagine it is quite tough and takes a professional touch.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on December 06, 2011, 10:08:45 pm
wow! That is not at all what I imagined. The fold is very wide!
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on December 07, 2011, 09:23:00 am
its not a easy job folding the brim over either, and geting the stitching correct ???

They probably used a folding fixture on the machines that sewed them
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Charles Isaac on December 07, 2011, 10:53:20 am
Right now I am using my Ruger Vaquero in 45LC.


I agree about shooting historical iron. It is so much fun! I will not own a rifle I would not shoot. I have many old rifles and virtually all of them are military and virtually all of them are pre-1950. I particularly like Victorian military rifles and have quite a few interesting ones. Here is a list of a few of my my early (pre 1910) military rifles.

Schützengewehr M1858, Bavarian-1860
Enfield P1853 3-Band Rifled Musket, British-1860
Springfield Rifle Musket Model 1864, American-1863
Enfield Snider MK II*, British-1864
Springfield Trapdoor Model 1870, American-1870
Springfield Remington Rolling Block Model 1871, American-1872
Martini Henry Mk I, British-1874
Martini Henry Mk II, British-1877
Mauser Infanteriegewehr M1871, German-1877
Martini Henry Francotte Rifle, British (Nepal)-1878
Mauser Infanteriegewehr M1871/84,   German-1886
Springfield Trapdoor Model 1874, American-1887
Springfield Trapdoor Carbine Model 1883, American-1889
Infanteriegewehr 1888 Commission Rifle, German-1890
Infanteriegewehr 1888/05 Commission Rifle, German-1890
Mauser M1891 Cavalry Carbine, Argentinian-1899
Repetierstutzen M95/30, Austrian-1900
Krag Model 1898, American- 1902
Mauser Gewehr 1898, German-1905



Quite the array of weapons there,--very impressive Sir.

For all the trouble you're going to with the uniform, I felt it was my duty to mention the Smith & Wesson. The Trapdoor is fine going up against any other single shot, but you will be hosed, really badly, on time when it comes down to going up against any of the good break open, simultaneous ejecting revolvers with your Ruger or an SAA etc.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on December 07, 2011, 11:15:49 am
Quite the array of weapons there,--very impressive Sir.

For all the trouble you're going to with the uniform, I felt it was my duty to mention the Smith & Wesson. The Trapdoor is fine going up against any other single shot, but you will be hosed, really badly, on time when it comes down to going up against any of the good break open, simultaneous ejecting revolvers with your Ruger or an SAA etc.

Who makes a good one and where can I find one at a reasonable price?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: FTrooper on December 07, 2011, 11:43:33 am
I have to agree with Charles on that.  Years ago a couple guys I know were having a hard time with the US Army's use of the M1870 Remington Rolling Block Single Shot Pistol in the age of the six-gun.  Yes it was a more powerful cartridge and such, but it just didn't seem to make since.  So they decided to do a bunch of side by side tests of a Remington RB pistol and a Colt SAA.

The most amazing and eye opening test was the 12 shots speed shooting (shots had to be somewhat aimed and no "fanning").  As can be expected the SAA made out with a fast lead, but after 6 they had to eject 6 rounds while manually indexing the cylinder and the load 6 more in while indexing the cylinder.  In that time the RB caught up and started to lap the SAA...end the end they pretty much ended at the same time! 

Chris Fischer
F-Troop
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on December 10, 2011, 11:53:13 am
Quite the array of weapons there,--very impressive Sir.

For all the trouble you're going to with the uniform, I felt it was my duty to mention the Smith & Wesson. The Trapdoor is fine going up against any other single shot, but you will be hosed, really badly, on time when it comes down to going up against any of the good break open, simultaneous ejecting revolvers with your Ruger or an SAA etc.

Schofield secured. I shoudl have it in a few weeks. Thanks for the advice.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on December 10, 2011, 10:27:04 pm
Buddy of mine shot the match today with his twin schofields today..  Says they work really well.  His worked good, had some one tune them up and now they work really good.  Sad to say, I neglected to ask him to try them out.  A another buddy was going to shoot them, but some how he disappeared for a while in the mean time Buddy 1 put them away in the vehicle - oh well maybe next time.

They look interesting, treat them kindly even though they look pretty rugged they are not Super Black hawks.  Moderate loads and they should serve you well for a long time.  Save the hot loads for Rugers.  Probably telling you something you already know.

Whey you get to the range please give us a report.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on December 23, 2011, 08:18:32 pm
Schofield secured. I shoudl have it in a few weeks. Thanks for the advice.

The deal fell through. I am back in the market.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on December 25, 2011, 12:42:15 am
Santa (my son &gf) brought me a khaki pith helmet.  Has the brit cover but what the heck may still wear it with the 84  canvas uniform
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on December 26, 2011, 02:01:53 pm
Santa (my son &gf) brought me a khaki pith helmet.  Has the brittle cover but what the heck may still wear it with the 84wire canvas uniform

I have not received my pith helmet yet. I will have to look into the order.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 01, 2012, 03:31:56 pm
Alright. It is a new year and I have new questions.

I have decided to first concentrate on a mid 1880s or early 1890s period impression (perhaps the Geronimo campaign) since I like shooting my carbine and I have the 1884 Artilleryman uniform.

I need a drab hat. I have heard several companies in this thread that sell them but I don't knwo which one is appropriate for me.
Coon Creek seems to be about the bottom end of cost and Dirty Billy seems to be at the high end. I will not purchase one from him dirty billy because I believe in customer service and people who have a reputation of being rude to their customers will not get my business.  Now I am left with multiple other options. Which one should I choose?

Next for field gear. I would like recommendations for model and for a source from which to purchase the items.

I have the mills belt and a Model 1874 belt. What esle should I have? Haversak? Canteen? Knife? What else?
I assume th eknife woudl be the model 1880 knife. Is this correct? Where could one find one?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Trailrider on January 01, 2012, 03:54:50 pm
Not sure how much the redlegs were out in the field in the 1880's, but generally field "uniforms" were pretty loosey-goosey, and a matter of comfort and expediency.  There are numerous photos of troops wearing civilian holster and belts, and several company commanders had their own holsters designed, fabricated and issued.  Capt. Fechet, G Co., 8th Cav, designed one and Sgt. Wm. Miller fabricated such a holster which could be used with the Mills belts by means of a skirt that was held to the body of the holster by a narrow strap and buckle. It was open-top, butt-rear.  Of course, this was a cavalry outfit. Not sure where artillery troops figured, but they might have been in charge of a mountain howitzer or somesuch.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 01, 2012, 04:37:04 pm
I forgot, I also have an 1881 pattern holster and a civil war cap box which I believer were still in use for loose revolver rounds.

I understand that Cavalry were the ones that went after Geronimo but artillery is the uniform I have and I am sure there sere some artillerymen doing garrsion duty somewhere in the southwest at the time.  If people have suggesions of where artillery would have been used in the late 80s or early 90s I would welcome the info. According to this photo there were redlegs in the field at the Wounded Knee massacre. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/ppmsc/02500/02562r.jpg;  Perhaps that would be appropriate to portray.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Charles Isaac on January 01, 2012, 07:50:18 pm
The deal fell through. I am back in the market.

I can only recommend original guns-I know little about repros, but hey, the repro Schofield I looked at seemed like a pretty well made gun. Would seem out of place to me with those original long guns you have though.

 The No. 3s and Russians in good shooting condition show up on the auction sites for around a grand, give or take a few hundred. Sometimes an American sells fairly low too. It would be wild to see an original 1800's big bore Smith come alive on the line!
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 01, 2012, 08:00:11 pm
I agree. I need an orginal but I have not found one yet. I will be on the lookout. If I find it I will shoot it. In the mean time I have a Ruger Vaquero in 45 colt. It will due until I find what I really want to shoot.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Pitspitr on January 01, 2012, 08:37:43 pm
Next for field gear. I would like recommendations for model and for a source from which to purchase the items.
 What esle should I have? Haversak? Canteen? Knife? What else?

How serious to you want to be?

You might want to check the clothing thread in the GAF Regulations child board. http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,33884.0.html (http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,33884.0.html)
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Grapeshot on January 02, 2012, 09:06:20 am
I forgot, I also have an 1881 pattern holster and a civil war cap box which I believer were still in use for loose revolver rounds.

I understand that Cavalry were the ones that went after Geronimo but artillery is the uniform I have and I am sure there sere some artillerymen doing garrsion duty somewhere in the southwest at the time.  If people have suggesions of where artillery would have been used in the late 80s or early 90s I would welcome the info. According to this photo there were redlegs in the field at the Wounded Knee massacre. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/ppmsc/02500/02562r.jpg;  Perhaps that would be appropriate to portray.

Up until the late 1880's Field Artillery had been cut down to a very few regiments.  In fact, Congress authorized the Army to disband several regiments of artillery and convert the troops to CAVALRY to chase the indiginous Native Americans.   Most of the Artillery Regiments left were at Fort Leavenworth or Fort Sill.  Coast Artillery, However was still a strongly populated force, but garrisoned in seacoast towns where most of the Artillerymen came from the surrounding area. 

Anytime you see US Army personnel handling cannons they are usually muzzleloaders.  We did not get into large caliber, 3.2 inch breech loading Rifles, until sometime after 1885.  Most of the guns you would see were of the Breech Loading Hotchkiss 1.65 inch pack or mountain howitzer types as used by troops during the Nez Perz War and at Wounded Knee.  The practice at the time was to train cavalrymen or infantrymen on how to service and shoot those guns because of the lack of TRAINED Artillery Crews during the Indian Wars.

I remember seeing a ploto of Artillery Troops being drilled on a 12 pound Napoleon down in Texas some time in 1885 because they were all wearing the White Duck Uniforms and White Sun Helmets pattern of 1881.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Niederlander on January 02, 2012, 09:09:46 am
Keep in mind, too, that whatever uniform you want to do didn't have to be indigenous to the frontier west.  We portray Victorian military forces from around the world.  If you want to do Coast Artillery, by all means do that!
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on January 03, 2012, 12:06:51 am
Liten up!  Plenty of us don't know what we wanna be or are actually different folks in different eras.  I sometimes wear an 1858 infantry officers uniform, some times an 1870's or 80s Infantry uniform, some times Dress like I am ready to go up San Juan Hill.

Proudly wore my 1884 Canvas Fatigue Infantry Uniform Standing Next to Cowtown Scout in his 84 Canvas Cav Uniform, 2 Days later came in 3rd with the 58 inf uniform finishing behind CTS in his 1898 Engineer LTC or Maj Uniform.

Given the time it took to get promoted prior to the civil war, to be a Captain I would have had to been in the mexican american war, would have been way to old to go up san Juan hill some 50 years later without a scooter or walker at the very least.

We are all afterall really playing dressup, cowboys and indians and wanna be or usta was soldiers.

Heck if Strong can come up with Seal or Walrus skin parka, muc lucs and snowshoes let him be that alaska eskimo scout.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Pitspitr on January 03, 2012, 05:54:41 am
Heck if Strong can come up with Seal or Walrus skin parka, muc lucs and snowshoes let him be that alaska eskimo scout.

A good friend of mine was a Captain, commanding a company of eskimo scouts.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Niederlander on January 03, 2012, 07:44:38 am
I don't know if we can carry enough water to keep Strong going in July if he does the Eskimo thing!
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 03, 2012, 08:58:23 am
Liten is right, I don't know what I want to be. As I stated earlier, I have many rifles and would like to have appropriate kit to work with several different ones. Eventually I will find the one that feels right and I like the best. As of now I have two fairly complete uniforms. I have a Civil War private's uniform and the 1884 Canvas fatigues. I figured I would complete the Canvas uniform and develop a kit that works for that. Since it was pre-owned it is artillery. I like making things go boom and have built and fired many medieval artillery pieces. Artillery is very interesting to me so I don't mind the red stripes at all. Now I need to find a place and time when the 1884 uniform would be in use and build a kit around that.

Since I have no seal skins I need to find a hat. I would like to stay on the shallow side of $100 if possible for a drab hat. Is this possible? If so from whom?

I will learn and I will change and I will strive for authenticity. But for now I am just starting in this endeavor. I could use more suggestions.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Pitspitr on January 03, 2012, 10:00:46 am
If you're looking for a cheap hat to get you started the M237 from hatcrafters might get you started.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Niederlander on January 03, 2012, 11:10:28 am
Talk to Jim Kanne at Eureka Arsenal and he should be able to set you up with a hat.  I think his is the 1889.  I've seen one, and I thought he did a nice job.  There are people on here with WAY more knowledge about hats than I have, though.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: St. George on January 03, 2012, 11:49:02 am
Eureka Arsenal does make a nice Model 1889.

The idea of first deciding on what you're portraying, and then concentrating on that alone, will save you quite a bit of money during your initial outfitting.

Following that - remember that the Army had a most generous 'wear-out period', so you can add later-issued articles of equipment and clothing slowly, and still be well within Army Regulations of the times.

During the period, the only ones outfitted with the newest gear would've been those serving on the East Coast, or at higher-level units where new things would be shipped.

The field units weren't getting anything brand-new.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 03, 2012, 12:37:07 pm
OK, I talked to Jim at Eureka and they make a M1883 hat which should be good for me. I am ordering that now.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Pitspitr on January 03, 2012, 01:30:27 pm
Good Choice!
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 03, 2012, 01:34:33 pm
Next Question...
I assume the knife is need would be the model 1880 knife. Is this correct? Where could one find one?

Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: St. George on January 03, 2012, 01:56:06 pm
No idea - all mine are original.

You 'could' opt for an Indian-made sheath with a carbon steel butcher knife, though - those were very common.

Good Luck!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: liten on January 03, 2012, 04:30:35 pm
 hopalong i hope yr not to fussy about crown heights  his hats are well made ,but im sure hes a bit confused what the crown heights should,  be !   i got my first hat from him ,and i sent it back because the height problem ,  i
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Niederlander on January 03, 2012, 04:41:52 pm
Mr. Kanne knows full well what the height should be.  The problem, as well as I can remember him explaining it to me (it's been awhile), is that the hat bodies available for him to use don't contain enough material for him to get them exactly right, at least in the larger sizes.  Another issue is that most of us are considerably larger than people were then, and thus the proportions on reproduction uniform items are often off just a bit if you stick strictly to the letter of the regulations.  I'm always amazed at how SMALL a lot of original uniform items are, and when you look at the measurements of the larger sizes the Quartermaster carried, a lot of high school freshmen wouldn't fit them now.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: liten on January 03, 2012, 05:24:47 pm
well its up to hopalong, if wants a not enuf material hat  thats up to him,  ,   and if you want to chase geronimo , yr better off on horseback, join the 6th cavalry
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 03, 2012, 10:36:52 pm
Can anyone judge the qualiy of the repro knife?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Trailrider on January 03, 2012, 10:38:19 pm
There was a practice during the Indian Wars period when an officer could transfer to another post...if he could find an officer of equal rank who wanted to switch with him.  If a coast artillery officer was bored and wanted some adventure "out West" perhaps he could have found another officer, say in Arizona, who was tired of chasing Geronimo, and wanted a change of scene...  With the availability of uniforms being what they were (not), the arty type might have elected to wear his old uniform in the field.

You know, in point of fact, I probably should have been a redleg myself, as I "matriculated" as a targeting officer on some loooong range "morters" back in the '60's. (Just aimed them and made sure they were ready for the capsule drivers if ever needed. Thank God they haven't been so far...!) But studying a bunch of IW period history got me dressed up with a cavalryman's stripes and shoulder straps.  Then, because I felt I'd been a captain long enough (since '68), and because of my leather work and experiments with ammunition, I was breveted major of Ordnance and now brevet Lt. Col. of same.  So you see, you can make whatever you want work!  :)
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 05, 2012, 09:03:18 am
I have a question about pant leg stripes. I have seen surviving originals with the non-side seam pockets (levi pocket style) and the seam stripes end at the bottom of the pocket and cover the seam. Where do the stipes end on the side seam pocket pants?
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 05, 2012, 01:15:29 pm
I think I answered my own question. The stripes continue up to the waistband but go behind the pocket slit.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Grapeshot on January 06, 2012, 04:07:49 am
Can anyone judge the qualiy of the repro knife?

Depends on where you get it.  You are looking for a belt knife?  You might want to check Bud-K or Kennesaw Knifes and find one that approximates the style you want.  Failing that, try What Price Glory's website.  IIRC they were advertising 19th Century Issue knifes with Scaboards.  I do not remember seeing Artillery Troops with any issue knives, Sabers, which they used for hacking down brush, but I haven't run into any pictures uf them using anything like the Bolo Knives that you see in the early 20th Century equipment.

If someone else out there knows more about this feel free to sound off.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on January 06, 2012, 06:27:53 pm
http://www.history.army.mil/html/museums/uniforms/survey.html


Its a useful download.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 06, 2012, 07:54:36 pm
Thanks for that.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: 1961MJS on February 06, 2014, 11:29:40 pm
No idea - all mine are original.

You 'could' opt for an Indian-made sheath with a carbon steel butcher knife, though - those were very common.

Good Luck!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

Hi

Sorry about being Frankenstein again, but I dislike having six threads about similar things.

I have a few 7 inch Green River butcher knife blades, what sort of Indian style sheath would be used with a Fair Weather Christian Belt (.45 LC)? 

THanks

Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Pitspitr on February 07, 2014, 05:07:09 am
Wow, after going back and re-reading the early parts of this thread I can hardly believe how far your kit has come in just 2 years GW!

Mike I'll see what I can dig up.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Bat 2919 on February 07, 2014, 12:08:49 pm
I have a question.  I know this Span Am suspender project has been going on for some time now.  I would love to get my hands on a pair of them.  What's the status of that project?

I'm working from the other side of the time line.  I've got my Wild Bunch (Punitive Expedition) kit fleshed out pretty well but now I'm trying to morph what I already own into something pre 1900 that I can wear at Pitsptr's June Grand Muster / Zoot Shooters shindig.

When I was young and dumb I found myself working for my Uncle Sam in the enlisted ranks.  I've developed a reputation in SASS as a natty dresser and the only way I have any chance of keeping up that standard would be in an officer’s uniform.  I've Brevetted myself at one time or another from Captain (I'm way too old to be a shave tail but a crusty old O - 3 exiled to the 9th Cav. works very well) all the way up to Bird Colonel.  I've got some stars somewhere, who knows I may even make it to Brigadier before I'm done.

One thing to remember is that what is worn in garrison is as different as night and day from what’s worn in the field.  I'm sure that’s every bit as true now as it was in the 1800's.   There are two dynamics I learned.  First, no one in the field wants to stand out as a high value target, second, in the field expedient environment comfort and practicality trump uniform regulations every time.

Expect officers and ranking NCO's to attempt to wear uniforms that don't make them look too much different from the EM's and an obvious target.  No one can see the difference in the size of the stripe on someone's trousers from a distance but Officers are and were famous for wearing enlisted hats it the field.  Along that same line saluting in the field is all but unknown unless of course you don't like your CO.

Comfort is always king in the field as well.  That heavy wool blouse couldn't have been very comfortable to wear.  I'd be willing to bet that the when someone finally wrote down the regulations allowing NCO’s to wear stripes on their shirt sleeves or officers to wear rank insignia on their shirt collars in the late 1890’s it was something that had been the practice for some time and they were simply authorizing something they knew worked.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: G.W. Strong on February 09, 2014, 01:46:55 pm
Wow, after going back and re-reading the early parts of this thread I can hardly believe how far your kit has come in just 2 years GW!

Mike I'll see what I can dig up.


Thanks for the kind words.
I have never been one for half measures.

I've done quite a bit of work this year. I should be well kitted out with largely new uniforms and gear this year. And i have also been working on a new expansion era uniform for 2014 and an entirely different one for 2015.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: 1961MJS on February 14, 2014, 03:28:26 pm
Hi

I ordered:

Plains Indian Knife Sheaths: Materials, Design & Construction
Kozlov, Alex

from Amazon.com.  I hope to get a bit of a clue what style sheath to build from it.  I didn't find anything but Issue stuff in the Cavalry books, and no mention in either Seiber or Kelley's biographies.

Thanks
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: 1961MJS on February 17, 2018, 01:32:14 pm
Hi

I have an 1874 Cavalry Sharps in .45-70 and a .30-40 Krag Carbine.  I'm currently working up loads for the Krag.  i HAD a load for the Sharps but its in IMR-30331.  No sense in competing with bolt guns if I don't have to.  I have a decent post Civil War fatigue uniform. I also have most of the 1884 fatigue uniform, but not enough to go out in public yet (no pants).  I have the shirt, leggings, hat, cartridge belt, and shoes, but no pants or coat yet.   I have decent eating utensils for both setups and even a canteen for each.  

My current questions concerns my lack of anything to kill the bayonet dummy with.  I spent quite a bit of time over the past years putting handles on store bought blades and making sheaths for them.  I did that back at my parent's and have since sold their house.  Obviously the bayonet dummy can't be allowed to live.  I did a tittle searching and found a website called the Kult of Athena and they sell knives you dirty old men.  They have a decent 1860 Light Cavalry blade, a Rifleman's knife circa 1849, and a D-Guard Bowie knife that all look decently made.  

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=500618&name=1860+Light+Cavalry+Union+Saber (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=500618&name=1860+Light+Cavalry+Union+Saber)

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AH3170&name=A22+Rifleman%27s+Knife (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AH3170&name=A22+Rifleman%27s+Knife)

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=400928&name=D%2DGuard+Bowie+Knife (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=400928&name=D%2DGuard+Bowie+Knife)

I'm leaning on carrying "Dad's" Old Rifleman's knife or the D-Guard Bowie that I picked up during the March to the Sea primarily because even though D''artagnan was about the coolest guy ever, the sword is dang near 4 foot long and the sword belt is another $100 to $250 depending on how good I go.  No one makes the 1907 Bolo anymore, just the WW1 version dang it.  I rally hate to blow $300 plus just for one dummy, do I REALLY need the sword?  Heck I could get both the knives just for the Sword price.

COMMENTS

Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: Drydock on February 17, 2018, 05:14:28 pm
Post war, most sabres were left in the depot, and most cavalrymen carried a knife of some sort.  This resulted in a number of official knife projects during the 1880s.  I really like the Rifleman's Knife myself.

Most of us who do have swords wear them with the dress uniform.  I keep a knife on my belt for bayonet dummies when using my carbines in skirmish runs.
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: 1961MJS on February 17, 2018, 10:54:27 pm
Thanks Drydock

For now, I ordered the Rifleman's Knife.  Since we're doing the Philippine Insurrection this year, someone might want one of these Barongs. 

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=TFW030&name=Moro+Barong+ (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=TFW030&name=Moro+Barong+)

They have a picture of one in the Osprey "The Spanish-American War and Philippine Insurrection" by Alexandro Quesada.

Later
Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: 1961MJS on February 23, 2018, 09:58:44 pm
Hi

I received a nice BIG package from Palantine Illinois today containing an 1849 Ames Rifleman's Knife and an 1880 Hunting Knife / 1892 Entrenchment Knife (depends on what year it was made).  These are from Windlass and are sort of poorly made, but I paid under $100 total and most other places charge substantially more for these two.  Poorly made sounds like I'm not happy.  These are built like a titanium outhouse.  Heavy as hell and built to last, but these are NOT custom show knives.  They are both HUGE by the way.  Neither are sharpened, but a few months of working with the Lanzky Sharpener should work that out.  The Ames Dagger is 13 inches long instead of the 12 inches it's supposed to be.

Later


Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: 1961MJS on February 23, 2018, 10:49:25 pm
Hi

Here are some pictures of what is labeled as an Entrenching Knife by the Kult of Athena (Windlass).  This is a stoutly built knife and will be useful, but is not too correct.  The 8.5 inch blade is 11 inches and I'm sure the grip is too long also.  Its heavy and thick.  I plan on sharpening it with more of a chopping angle on the edge.  Only one side of the blade can be sharpened.  That's not what it looked like in the pictures though.  I'll work on my own sheath and see what I end up with.

Later

Title: Re: uniform questions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on March 06, 2018, 07:35:06 pm
Having a long barreled Krag with bayonet lug I don't need a knife as I have the bayonet for the Krag, works well on 03 springfield and M-1 Garrand as well.  The 16 inch bayonet for the 03 vs the 10 for the Krag was to give equal reach given the shorter barrel of the 03.