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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: Grigori_Storri on November 25, 2010, 09:16:40 am

Title: military winchester rifle M-94?
Post by: Grigori_Storri on November 25, 2010, 09:16:40 am
Just got finished a copy of Blaine Pardoe's book "Lost Eagles" I read something interesting in the early days of military aviation in the United States sometime during the early years airial observation crews "Officers" who were only issued pistols were found they were out gunned by other planes and ground forces had purchased by mail order winchester rifles model 94

From what I know of these early days Aviation and Signal Intelligence were classified as staff level under the fourth infantry division seems to have been the first modern warfare division which also held the motorcyle corps. I do know it has been a standard over the years for officers to obtain and maintain their own uniforms and personal weapons.

Now I think it is funny that they picked the winchester mod 94 a hunting rifle maybe it was the price and availibility at the time. But these I found were from private purchase.

I also found that the Royal Flying Corps used the winchester mod 94 in military service during the early days of world war one.

Does anyone know of any other references of this or other civilian weapons finding thier way into military service?
Title: Re: military winchester rifle M-94?
Post by: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on November 25, 2010, 10:04:47 am
Canada purchased a number of M94 carbines during WWII for use by the Canadian Rangers, a reserve patrolling group that are still active.  The carbines were in a specific serial number range that shows as a gap in the publicly available data.  I have one but it was re-finished and re-stocked with Bishop wood. I have heard that some Marlin carbines were used, but I expect they were private purchase, if this were true.  Look at the Winchester references.

DOMINION manufactured boxcarloads of full jacket ammo for them.  It remained in their catalogue well into the 1960s.
Title: Re: military winchester rifle M-94?
Post by: JimBob on November 25, 2010, 12:46:58 pm
The Winchester M1907 saw usage with several of the Allied Powers during WW1.Winchester factory records show that the 1st Aero Squadron of the Signal Corps took delivery of 19 Model 1907 rifles and 9000 rounds of ammunition with delivery to Columbus,New Mexico during the Punitive Expedition.

The RFC also purchased a limited number to arm observers.The largest purchaser was France where many were converted to full auto and adapted for bayonets although I can find no record of actual usage other than some were used by observers in planes.

To add a little more to the subject,sometime back an article in The Gun Report on holsters made by the Phillippine Ordnance Depot had shown a POD marked holster for a Mauser C96 pistol.The POD among other things made accoutrements for private purchase by officers,so at least one of them armed himself with a "Broomhandle".
Title: Re: military winchester rifle M-94?
Post by: litl rooster on January 13, 2011, 05:47:51 pm
A friend of mine has a US marked 94 in his collection. His storey was that many of these were issued to civilian coast watchers during the Great War
Title: Re: military winchester rifle M-94?
Post by: Delmonico on January 13, 2011, 06:35:33 pm
DOMINION manufactured boxcarloads of full jacket ammo for them.  It remained in their catalogue well into the 1960s.

I had a box of that I sold a collector, now that explains it, was wonderin' what you guys up there were doing with FMJ 30-30.  You just didn't want to run afoul of the rules of war.

(BTW the US issued FMJ 22 Hornet rounds for their Cold War era survival guns, that way if you had to ditch after bombing Moscow with a thero-nuke device you were still following the rules of war if you defended yourself with it.)
Title: Re: military winchester rifle M-94?
Post by: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on January 13, 2011, 07:30:51 pm
As I recall the C.I.L. brochures, the FMJ's were not recommended for most hunting.  The rational for keeping them on the market, aside from salvaging their over-stock, was for trappers to delivery the coup-de-grace to their catch.
Title: Re: military winchester rifle M-94?
Post by: Delmonico on January 13, 2011, 07:45:01 pm
As I recall the C.I.L. brochures, the FMJ's were not recommended for most hunting.  The rational for keeping them on the market, aside from salvaging their over-stock, was for trappers to delivery the coup-de-grace to their catch.

The ones I had were 160gr round nose.  To be truthful if I had a grizzly running toward me and I had a 30-30 I would think those might give a fella a better chance.  If you missed the brain there sure would be a better chance of damaging someting beyond like bones or some vital plumbing.  At worst you might cure the hemmiroids that made him so crabby in the first place. 
Title: Re: military winchester rifle M-94?
Post by: Grapeshot on January 14, 2011, 09:02:04 am
Winchester also made a run of M1895's for the Imperial Russian Army in 7.62 X 54R.  I'm not sure if any were delivered, but I've read that they were the musket configuration and modified to accept a stripper clip to load.
Title: Re: military winchester rifle M-94?
Post by: St. George on January 14, 2011, 09:16:25 am
In the now-distant past, I've owned several 'US'-marked Winchester Model 1894's - all in .30-30 - all tied to the Federal Bureau of Prisons 'after' WWI.

They were purchased as 'Guard Guns' - not military-issue.

Home Guard soldiers - who replaced deployed National Guardsmen during WWI - carried personally-owned shotguns, and a few Trapdoors were issued by various states.

During the initial scramble of the early days of WWII - many, many commercial weapons found their way into military service, and those were off-the-shelf purchase.

These weapons were marked with Ordnance property marks and were usually handguns or shotguns - quickly overcome by military-issued weapons as war production increased and commercial production was limited.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!





Title: Re: military winchester rifle M-94?
Post by: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on January 14, 2011, 10:40:30 am
Winchester also made a run of M1895's for the Imperial Russian Army in 7.62 X 54R.  I'm not sure if any were delivered, but I've read that they were the musket configuration and modified to accept a stripper clip to load.

Almost a 1/4 million.  I have heard references to a find at the imperial carnage sight that some recovered bullets were attributed to a "winchester"
Title: Re: military winchester rifle M-94?
Post by: Buck Stinson on January 14, 2011, 11:18:29 am
Near the end of WW1, the US Government purchased approximately 1800 Winchester model 1894 saddle ring carbine, all in .30-30 caliber.  They were all stamped US with the ordnance bomb on the top of the receiver ring.  Today, collectors call these carbines "Spruce Guns".   To make a long story short, these carbines were issued to troups who were assigned to guard the Spruce forests and lumber mills of the Pacific Northwest.  Why, you ask?  Because Spruce was the primary wood used in building airplanes for combat over France.  I've owned two of these guns over the past 40 years.  I bought one in Sandpoint, Idaho in the late 60's and another one in Spokane, Washington about four years ago.  Anyone interested should be able to check the internet for an article about these Winchesters, written by Rick Hill (a member of the Winchester Arms Collectors Association).
Title: Re: military winchester rifle M-94?
Post by: Forty Rod on January 14, 2011, 01:22:36 pm
Winchester also made a run of M1895's for the Imperial Russian Army in 7.62 X 54R.  I'm not sure if any were delivered, but I've read that they were the musket configuration and modified to accept a stripper clip to load.

Over a quarter million (the number 294,000 comes to mind)were delivered to the Russians.  I was recently told that in the early years leading up to WWII most were melted down and the steel used to make newer rifles for the Soviet army.
Title: Re: military winchester rifle M-94?
Post by: JimBob on January 14, 2011, 04:29:52 pm
Over a quarter million (the number 294,000 comes to mind)were delivered to the Russians.  I was recently told that in the early years leading up to WWII most were melted down and the steel used to make newer rifles for the Soviet army.

Large numbers of these rifles ended up in the hands of the Finns after the 1918 Civil War.Additionally Russia also furnished these as aid to Republican Spanish forces during the Spanish Civil War.It is doubtfull many were left in Russia by the late 30s to melt.Most of the ones that turn up on the market are in well used condition.
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