CAS City Forum Hall & CAS-L

Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: Drydock on October 30, 2009, 08:26:32 pm

Title: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on October 30, 2009, 08:26:32 pm
One of my favorites,  Y'all come up with some now

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/i01000/i01539.jpg
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on October 31, 2009, 07:47:13 am
Great picture!  I love these old photos, and they are by far the best resource to figure out what was being worn and used at any given time.  Thanks for posting!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on October 31, 2009, 08:50:48 am
Sailors and Marines on ship with a rack of US Navy Rifles, Caliber .236, M1895

(http://www.users.fast.net/~kragmeister/win-lee/GunDeck.JPG)


Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pony Racer on October 31, 2009, 05:10:52 pm
OK you guys have wet my whistle, er bosun pipe.... I am just going to have to get some USRCM, USRCS pictures up!!!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on October 31, 2009, 08:45:13 pm
Note the 8" shell hole, private with Krag.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 01, 2009, 12:15:36 am
Marines in Peking China with .236 Lee Straight Pulls.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/US_Marines_in_China_1900_HD-SN-99-01986.jpg/780px-US_Marines_in_China_1900_HD-SN-99-01986.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 01, 2009, 04:09:09 pm
Phillipines, 1900
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 01, 2009, 08:12:56 pm
Inspection, dismounted cavalry.  Guy on end missing his leggings.  Officer might make me nervous where he's pointing that carbine.  Notice rank on shirts?  That began in the Phillipines.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 01, 2009, 08:42:18 pm
Marines in Hawaii with Krags in 1908.
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/i06000/i06100.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 01, 2009, 11:49:46 pm
OK ..... gotta jump in here with some British Empire flavour (.... note correct spelling .....   ;)  ) -

First one is probably my favorite (.... and those who have seen my field uniform and battle rifle at the past three Musters will understand why ....)  -  

Non-Commissioned Officers with Martini-Henry rifles, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada competition rifle team, 1889 .....
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Canadian%20military/qor1889b.jpg)

Private armed with Snider-Enfield rifle,  5th Royal Scots of Canada, circa 1883 -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Scottish/5thRoyalScotsofCanadaPrivate.jpg)

Now, a couple of photos of Canadians in South Africa (Boer War, 1899-1902). .....

Buglers, 2nd Battalion.Royal Canadian Regiment, armed with .303 Magazine Lee-Enfield rifle and .45 Colt Model 1878 Double Action revolvers -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/2RCR_buglers2.jpg)

Trooper. Lord Strathcona's Horse, armed with Magazine Lee-Enfield rifle and .45 Colt New Service revolver -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/LSHtrooper.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 01, 2009, 11:56:49 pm
Forgot this one - Troopers, Governor-General's Body Guard, on service during the 1885 North West Rebellion - note "NWMP and Militia Pattern" .45-75 Model 1876 Winchester rifles ......

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Governor-GeneralsBodyGuardAtentsqua.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 02, 2009, 08:59:51 am
Phillipine Scouts and Officer
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 02, 2009, 10:40:35 am
Patrol, 1899.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 02, 2009, 01:40:49 pm
Marines on ship with Krags
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h95000/h95652.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 02, 2009, 04:44:42 pm
A few photos for my American Comrades-in-Arms -

Private, 1st Regiment, Pennsylvania National Guard
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/Private1stRegimentPennsylvaniaNatio.jpg)

United States Cavalry Trooper in England - I believe this was taken in 1897 on the occasion of Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee, celebrating the 60th year of her reign.  That year there was a huge Military Review in London, for which all parts of the Empire, and many other nations, sent representative troops -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/USCavalrymanEngland_lowres.jpg)

Private, 5th Massachusetts Infantry -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/Private5thMassechusettsInfantry_low.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 02, 2009, 04:58:43 pm
Once again for my friends south of the Medicine Line ..... a few more images from the China Relief Expedition (Boxer Rebellion) -

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/Boxer_US_01_lowres.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/Boxer_US_02_lowres.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/Boxer_US_03_lowres.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/Boxer_US_05_lowres.jpg)

Although no firearms are in the photograph, I quite like the uniforms worn by these American servicemen ...... chaps look almost "Imperial", eh what?      (Identified as "Privates Jones and Chernecky, Tientsin) -

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/PrivateJonesAndCherneckyTientsin_lo.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 02, 2009, 06:19:37 pm
Shipmates posing armed.

The Marine has an M1884 Trapdoor. The Sailor is armed with either an M1851 or M1861 Colt, almost certainly converted to 38cf and carried in a Navy "skeleton" holster.
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h51000/h51049.jpg)



I like this picture Rattlesnake Jack posted. This Soldier has a right handed holster that looks much like a Navy or Marine M1889.

It may also be a prop owned by the photographer, but I have seen a photo of a Soldier in the field in Cuba with a right handed holster that looked like a Navy or Marine M1889.

Someone needs to go back in time and tell these people they are not being historically accurate.

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/Private5thMassechusettsInfantry_low.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 02, 2009, 07:15:08 pm
The sailor is a Bos'ns Mate, as you can tell by the whistle cord.  The holster is called a "frog".  In the famous photo of the "Rough Riders" atop Kettle hill,  TR himself is wearing a right hand draw full flap hoslter for his USN M1889.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 02, 2009, 08:13:12 pm
Thanks for the info Col. I had a brain fart on what the Navy called those holsters. That Bos'ns Mate looks like he could curse up a storm.

I have seen the picture of TR with his right hand holster, and another picture of an Army Soldier with one too. Just goes to show that what it says in the regulations is not the whole story as far as what men actually used in combat.

That's why I am kind of cynical when someone says something is not historically accurate "because the regulations say...........
Even TR did not always follow the regulations.

Here's one just for you Col!












(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h54000/h54211.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 02, 2009, 08:53:01 pm
Ah, thank you, now thats a Uniform I need!  What is it they're standing around?  Looks like the breech of a small cannon?  And note the shore party Ammo cassion just off to the right.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: River City John on November 02, 2009, 09:09:33 pm
Keeping with naval images.
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/RiverCityJohn/Shipboard.jpg)
Some Bo'sun's Mates and Officers.

(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/RiverCityJohn/AlbumMIlitaire-054.jpg)

And French seamen drilling, pre-WWI.

Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 02, 2009, 09:28:04 pm
I like this shot, only because I cannot imagine crossing the pacific at 5 knots in THAT!  (USS Monadnock, BM-3)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 02, 2009, 09:34:08 pm
It's a 3" howitzer. The most I have found out about it is that it is probably what is known as a Boat Howitzer, based on the Army's Mountain Howitzer, which was found to be unsuitable by the Navy so they made their own version.


(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h54000/h54211.jpg)
[/quote]
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 02, 2009, 11:06:07 pm
Here are a couple I missed in my files  ......

Cavalry Trooper -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/USCavalryTrooper.jpg)

Two Privates, 8th Corps, Manila -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/Two8thCorpsPrivatesManila-.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 02, 2009, 11:55:16 pm
Now for those of you who might want to consider a somewhat more exotic GAF persona, here is a veritable potpourri of late-Victorian-era soldiers of various nationalities, most of them stationed or deployed on their own frontiers --

French -

- 37th Regiment de Infantrie -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/37thRegimentdeInfantrie.jpg)

- Turco, Algeria
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/AlgerianTurco_2.jpg)

- 3rd Regiment Zouaves
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/3rdRegimentZouaves_2.jpg)

- 4th Regiment Tirailleurs,Tunisia -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/4thRegimentdeTirailleurs_Tunisia.jpg)

- Chausseur Afrique -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/ChasseurAfrique_2.jpg)


Italian -

- Bersaglieri -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/ItalianBersaglieri-715x1054.jpg)


Japanese -

Infantryman -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/JapaneseInfantryman.jpg)


Turkish -

Cavalryman -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/TurkishCavalryman-800x1177.jpg)


German -

Bavarian Infantryman -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/BavarianInfantryman1890s.jpg)

Schutztruppe, German South West Africa -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/FinkeSchutztruppef_rDeutschS_dwestA.jpg)

Mounted Schutztruppe, German South West Africa -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/MountedSchutztruppefurDeutschSudwes.jpg)

SeeBattalion (Marine) -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/GermanSeeBattalion-800x1170.jpg)

Schutztruppe, German South East Africa -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/SchutztruppeOstAfrika_b.jpg)

East Asia Brigade (Boxer Rebellion) -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/TwoPrivatesGermanEastAsiaBrigade.jpg)




Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pitspitr on November 03, 2009, 06:15:36 am

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/Private1stRegimentPennsylvaniaNatio.jpg)

Wasn't this guy at the muster?

Oh wait, If he had been the greatcoat would be buttoned up and he'd be wearing a fur cap. ;D
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 03, 2009, 10:40:10 am
Shipmates at the range. Good variety of uniform combination here.

(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/i01000/i01377.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Ol Gabe on November 04, 2009, 09:11:05 am
R.J.R.,
Thanks for sharing the pics. Curious about the Japanese Infantryman pic, it appears that he is wearing a wristwatch on his right arm or is that something else that looks like a wristwatch? Did the Japanese Army issue watches to the Infantry or is it possible it was his own purchased or gifted item?
Anyone have an idea when corrugated roofing came into use on Military bases as seen in the German Cavalryman pic?
Always thought the German headwear interesting with the right side flipped up on Germany Troops in Africa and the South Seas and the left side flipped up on Australia's Troopers hats, makes one wonder if one country did it to spite the other!
Best regards and keep the pics coming!
'Ol Gabe
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 04, 2009, 01:08:17 pm
Corrugated galvanized iron was invented in Britain in the 1820's, so it has been around for a long time.  It saw frequent use in frontier and colonial areas, and imagine that the German cavlaryman's photo was undoubtedly taken in German South West Africa - mind you, it could have been as late as WWI, I suppose, since Germany didn't lose control of its African colonies until then ....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrugated_galvanised_iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrugated_galvanised_iron)

I doubt that the wristwatch would have been an issued item - likely private purchase.  I noticed it, and thought: "My,  that chap is proud of his wristwatch!"    It looks to me like one of the early man's versions, which first appeared in the latter third or quarter of the 19th Century, and were often a wristband equipped with a cup or pocket to house a smallish pocketwatch - note the fairly prominent protrusion (likely the stem-wind) visible against the leather of the wrist band .......  (One of my many "wouldn't that be neat" projects sitting on the back burner is to  make such a wristband to hold  a suitable pocketwatch, and thus have a "period correct wristwatch" - at least for late 19th Century impressions, such as the Boer War.)
Link - ]The History and Evolution of the Wristwatch - http://www.qualitytyme.net/pages/rolex_articles/history_of_wristwatch.html (http://www.qualitytyme.net/pages/rolex_articles/history_of_wristwatch.html)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 04, 2009, 02:07:05 pm
Here are a number of other images from the Boxer Rebellion (many of them from stereo-views, you'll note) showing some of the various nationalities involved, besides British and American -

First, a mass review of the forces of the various allied nations, which was held right in the Forbidden City following the successful conclusion of the campaign -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/Foreign_armies_in_Beijing_during_Bo.jpg)

The First Chinese Regiment (a British-raised unit) ..... armed with .303 Martini-Enfield rifles -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/HM1stChineseRegtdetail.jpg)

Austrian Marines, manning a street barricade -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/Austrianmarines2.jpg)

French Zouaves, with piled Fusils Modèle 1886 (or  likely M86/93) i.e.  8mm Lebel rifles -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/French.jpg)

German troops .....  Not that familiar with Mausers - is it M88's they are carrying?
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/germaninfantry.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/Germantroops.jpg)

Japanese Marines (top) and sailors -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/BoxerJapaneseMarines.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/Japanese1.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/Japanese2.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/Japanese3.jpg)

Italian Mounted Infantry -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/ItalianMountedInfantry.jpg)

Russian -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/Russian.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/Russian2.jpg)

Here is an interesting "GAF-like" photo of Signalmen from various military contingents -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/Signalmen_BoxerRebellion-1.jpg)

Finally,  photos of two units which weren't specifically identified (or else I neglected to make proper note ....)  
Based on uniforms, kit, firearms ..... whatever ..... does anyone recognize them?
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/unknown1.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/unknown2.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 04, 2009, 08:42:45 pm
Cutlass Practice

Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Ol Gabe on November 05, 2009, 04:32:29 pm
R.J.R.,
Thanks again for posting pics from your collection, most interesting! Mayhaps you should make an 'educational and historical' publication of all your collection under the 'fair use' and 'safe harbor' concept for use only by GAF members as these are all surely way out of copyright? Ah, well, just a thought.     
Anyway, other observations...
The pic of the three Japanese Mil-folk standing next to a wall of longarms prompts a couple of comments. First off, it appears that these are all 'captured' items from the final conflict. As such, we see a long-tubed horn used by the Boxers to blare atonal sounds to frighten the locals and Legation Troops, it is seen leaning up against the stack of rifles in the lower right part of the wall with the bell on the ground, being a former player of horns it caught my attention right away and especially since I was already aware of the use of same in the Boxer Rebellion. We also see five long and oversized m/l's similar to the fabled '3 man guns' used by the Boxers. Today we would look at them and say they are similar to 'punt guns' but back then then they were made and used to shoot large roundballs, round stones, small chain or large uneven lead balls, as in canister shot of the day. It was a most impressive firearm and probably not very reliable if it took three men to carry, load and shoot it. As a young boy in a small country School in Iowa we went on 'field trips' to the biggest town around and toured museums and suchlike once a year. I recall going to the Grand Lodge of Iowa Masonic Library & Museum in Cedar Rapids, Iowa in the early 1960's and seeing one of the '3 man guns' on display in the public portion of the museum. It was a masive piece and larger than the ones shown in that pic but similar in design and length. It makes one wonder who on the 3-man crew would shoulder the firearm and touch it off! Volunteers? I don't think so!
Another firearm of interest is that seen in the pic of the three Italian Troopers, it appears to be a smaller Carbine on a sling that somehow goes over and under the cloak they wear, quite impressive. Are they wearing a dress uniform of sorts? The horses look much like the Chinese mounts we have seen in use in Mongolia, short and solid, perhaps that is all that was available to the Italians on arrival.
Best regards and keep the pics coming!
'Ol Gabe, thinking that in a former life I must have surely passed through there before someone was quoted as saying..."Damn the legations!"
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 05, 2009, 10:37:34 pm
Ol Gabe -

It certainly is interesting to see these images from a bygone day .....

The mounted Italian chaps appear to have M1891 Carcanos, in the Cavalry Carbine version introduced in 1893 with its folding bayonet .....

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/Italian_mounted_detail.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/M91Carcanocavalrycarbine_e.jpg)

The capes and headgear must be part of their regular field lit, I think.   A close look at their boots and trousers suggests that they certainly aren't wearing "dress" uniform -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/Italian_mounted_detail2.jpg)

Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 06, 2009, 12:08:11 pm
Practice at Ft. Sheridan
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 07, 2009, 06:50:16 pm


Pacified Moros with M1903 Springfields fitted with non-standard bolo bayonets.


(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/MorosWSpringfieldBolo-4-1-1-1.jpg?t=1257638439)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 07, 2009, 10:03:30 pm
Hanging out at the Barracks, Ft. Sheridan
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 08, 2009, 02:41:14 pm
Soldier with an M1873 trapdoor

(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/SpanAm4570-1.jpg?t=1257709467)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Texas Lawdog on November 08, 2009, 05:39:12 pm
 I would like to find bayonets for my Trapdoor rifle and my Krag.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pitspitr on November 08, 2009, 06:41:40 pm
Check E-bay. I got several M-1873 bayonets there
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 08, 2009, 08:02:10 pm
www.gunbroker.com       type "Trapdoor bayonet" in the search box


You can find Krag Bayonets there also.  Krag bayonets have really gotten crazy lately.  
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: pony express on November 08, 2009, 09:17:27 pm
How crazy? I'd like to get one for my Krag, but if it's too much maybe I'll have to fake it with a springfield bayonet. But even fro that, all I have is the bayonet itself, no scabbard or anything. Those bolo bayonets are pretty mean looking! But my trapdoor already has one, later model with the rod bayonet.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 08, 2009, 09:26:52 pm
Its not too bad, better prices seem to be found if you buy them seperatly. (Bayonet and Scabbard)  Gunbroker seems to have better prices than E-bay right now.  Gun shows and antique shops seem to have gone thru the roof.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pitspitr on November 08, 2009, 09:53:45 pm
I found some repro trapdoor bayonets one time and they weren't bad but you had to file the notches so that they'd fit. I wish I couuld remember where I got them.

Do you guys have any books of historic photo's that you'd recomend?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 09, 2009, 07:26:26 pm
I like to search out the original books. Bought a nice "coffee table" book about the Spanish American War. Printed in 1898 so there is no doubt as to the origin of the hundreds of huge photos. Brought it with me to the '09 Muster and a few people looked at it. $20 shipped on Ebay.

This photo was described as being a Sergeant in the Rough Riders. The holster is much like the right hand draw M1889 Naval Services holster. It is set up like a drop style Army holster, but at a straighter angle for right hand draw from the right side.  It's either a"field" modification of an '89 or a purpose built private purchase holster.

Definitely not regulation. Always glad to see people thinking outside the box

(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/fby-012l-1-1.jpg?t=1257814283)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 09, 2009, 08:07:30 pm
More pictures, lots of the Stereographics out there on the Internet.  Y'alls favorite president!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 09, 2009, 08:08:59 pm
Officers Call!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 09, 2009, 08:12:43 pm
Good look at some 1890s field kit
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Captain Barrett on November 09, 2009, 09:23:41 pm
Quote from: Charles Isaac
This photo was described as being a Sergeant in the Rough Riders. The holster is much like the right hand draw M1889 Naval Services holster. It is set up like a drop style Army holster, but at a straighter angle for right hand draw from the right side.  It's either a"field" modification of an '89 or a purpose built private purchase holster.
The sergeant in that picture is Frank Knox, later Secretary of War during World War II...
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 10, 2009, 09:22:02 am
Thanks for the ID Captain. Interesting how the Secretary of War back then had combat experience. I think that must be a disqualification nowadays.

Here's that favorite when it comes to Presidents. Teddy with a right hand holster that looks much like the Naval Services M1889. I have an original sitting here in front of me and that holster seems to have more belt loop in the back. It looks to be cut for a cross draw, unlike the one Sergeant Knox is pictured with. It seems the President may have canted it forward for a straighter profile either permanently modified or adjusted for the photo.

In that holster should be the once famous  but now largely forgotten M1889 Colts New Model Navy double action he carried that was salvaged by Navy Divers from the wreck of the Maine. And he got to keep it-how times have changed!
(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/Teddy-1.jpg?t=1257865277)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Texas Lawdog on November 10, 2009, 10:10:19 am
Great picture of Teddy.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: captmack on November 10, 2009, 10:51:58 am
Great pics Charles!!!!

Capt Mack
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Bull Schmitt on November 10, 2009, 11:00:13 am
Does anyone know if these pictures can be used on our web site without violating any copyrights?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 10, 2009, 02:14:15 pm
Thanks Texas Lawdog and Capt Mack.

I hope they don't "Come and git me" for postin these pictures Bull.

I shot one of these New Model Colts double action .38s at the '09 Muster, but it's one of those fancy Offy-Sir models. Ha Ha! Now what's a Private doin with an Officers Model? Somethins really wrong here!

Anyways,
Here's TR's pistol.
It's Been through a lot. Sunk with the Maine, then used in the Spanish American War by Teddy to shoot people, then stolen in the 30's, then found in the woods a few months later, stolen again in the 80's and recovered after ten years or so.

No wonder it's broken!

(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/1889TR.jpg?t=1257883299)

(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/1889TR2.jpg?t=1257883462)

Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 11, 2009, 07:41:03 pm
On the line in the Phillipines, Trapdoor volley!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 12, 2009, 10:55:41 am
Old Trooper with a '96 Carbine.

(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/roopKragCarb.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 12, 2009, 05:01:13 pm
I need one of these
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 12, 2009, 06:18:56 pm
Mine can, Just give the Solomon butcher Collection from NSHS credit.

OK, you guys expected some Butcher photos from me, Nebraska National Gurard cira 1904-1905:

Infantry:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/x1.jpg)

Artillary:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/xx3.jpg)

Musicians:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/xx4.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 12, 2009, 08:33:27 pm
Makes ya wonder what happened to those old 3" ordnance rifles (last produced in 1865!)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Mustang Gregg on November 12, 2009, 09:08:29 pm
Great pictures!!!!

I got some great photos from on & around Fort Riley, Camp Ogden, & Camp Forsythe, etc from the 1890's. 
I need to scan them & get them on digits & I will post them. 
One of them is now adorning the GAF site. 
It is the one of the troopers having rifle practice (towards the barracks, near Marshall Field) in 1898.

Mustang Gregg, SFC
Headed for Ft Flat Water
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pitspitr on November 13, 2009, 06:21:34 am
Makes ya wonder what happened to those old 3" ordnance rifles (last produced in 1865!)

I would just about bet that they became new cannons (or other military equipment) in about 1942.  :-\
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 13, 2009, 12:00:14 pm
German Sailor with an M1871/84 Mauser bolt action tube fed black powder repeater.
(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/GermanSailor.jpg?t=1258134969)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 13, 2009, 12:16:07 pm
German Marine around 1880 with an M1871 Mauser black powder single shot bolt action.

(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/GermanMarine-1.jpg?t=1258135942)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Cactus Rope on November 13, 2009, 03:29:21 pm
I need one of these

So you can make that 211 yd shot!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 13, 2009, 03:32:18 pm
I would just about bet that they became new cannons (or other military equipment) in about 1942.  :-\

Yep my mom's home town gave a large Parrot Gun to the cause, they do have a non-firing replica now, pointed at the lawyers office. ;D
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Rancid Roy on November 13, 2009, 05:28:09 pm
Great photos a real treat.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 13, 2009, 06:05:33 pm
Navy brings the BIG guns (13")
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on November 14, 2009, 08:32:46 am
Yep my mom's home town gave a large Parrot Gun to the cause, they do have a non-firing replica now, pointed at the lawyers office. ;D
Tecumseh had, if memory serves, a nine or ten inch Rodman gun that went into the scrap heap for World War 1.  They also now have a replica, but how cool would a real one be?!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 14, 2009, 09:20:44 am
Tecumseh had, if memory serves, a nine or ten inch Rodman gun that went into the scrap heap for World War 1.  They also now have a replica, but how cool would a real one be?!

Was a Parrot (sp) and went for WWII, the Sherman that sits there was given after the war to replace the cannon.  Used to play on that tank as a kid. ;)

You from down there, if so are you related to me?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 14, 2009, 10:37:08 am
OK a few more from Butcher and the Nebraska National Guard in 1904-05, BTW these were taken at Ft. Kearny after the buildings were gone and before it was a historical site.

Posting a new guard:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/zz2.jpg)

Three officers outside a tent:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/zz3.jpg)

The Commissary Dept:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/zz4.jpg)

And the cooks:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/zz5.jpg)

BTW these are crops from the full pictures, they had a lot of land and sky in them I didn't think we needed to look at.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on November 14, 2009, 12:23:07 pm
Was a Parrot (sp) and went for WWII, the Sherman that sits there was given after the war to replace the cannon.  Used to play on that tank as a kid. ;)

You from down there, if so are you related to me?
I stand corrected!  Obviously, memory didn't serve very well.  I think I got that information from the local paper, which has been notorious for years for getting information wrong.  I should have known!

I don't know if we're related.  What is your mom's maiden name?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 14, 2009, 12:52:54 pm
I stand corrected!  Obviously, memory didn't serve very well.  I think I got that information from the local paper, which has been notorious for years for getting information wrong.  I should have known!

I don't know if we're related.  What is your mom's maiden name?

Parrish and her Mom was a Hickey, good chance we could be. ;)  Related to half from the old families down there one way or the other. ;D  Also related of course to any Carman's down that way.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 14, 2009, 01:05:24 pm
Here is a real gem I came across .... a beautifully colorized photo of a French Grenadier Guardsman with a Chassepot rifle ....

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/French_Chassepot_color.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 14, 2009, 03:50:33 pm
OK, some bigger guns:

The USS Monitor and the dents caused by the CSS Virginia:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/aaa.jpg)

Powder Monkey on the USS New Hampshire:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/aaa1.jpg)

One from Ft Monroe:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/aaa2.jpg)

A gun being moved:
(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/aaa3.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 14, 2009, 05:31:26 pm
One from Arizona in the 1880's, not the rifles the soldiers are carrying:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/dfsa.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 14, 2009, 05:53:14 pm
Winchester-Hotchkiss I believe.  Bolt action, 2 piece stock.  Experimental issue in the Southwest. The Scout up top has a Trapdoor, the other scout looks like a Winchester 73.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 14, 2009, 08:09:07 pm
Beautiful Jack.  I wonder, in modern practice the Axe is a symbol of combat Pioneers, but I'm wondering if in his case, if that was the regiment that attacked the gates of the Chateau de Hougoumont at Waterloo.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 14, 2009, 08:16:22 pm
Buffalo Infantry with Trapdoors.  No two hats alike!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 14, 2009, 09:40:19 pm
..........attacked the gates of the Chateau de Hougoumont at Waterloo.

 And the ones that made it through the gates ( including the maniacal axe wielding former lumberjack, Lieutenant Legros) were cut down by the Coldstream Guards.

Colonel, you almost caused me get off track to the wrong era and post a pic of Legros and his men busting through the gate!

Coldstream Guards in the Boer War
(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/ColdstreamGuards.jpg?t=1258255723)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on November 15, 2009, 01:29:57 am
Parrish and her Mom was a Hickey, good chance we could be. ;)  Related to half from the old families down there one way or the other. ;D  Also related of course to any Carman's down that way.
Was she related to the people who owned Parrish grocery?  Were any of the Hickeys she's circus performers around 1900 or earlier?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 15, 2009, 10:17:07 am
Beautiful Jack.  I wonder, in modern practice the Axe is a symbol of combat Pioneers, but I'm wondering if in his case, if that was the regiment that attacked the gates of the Chateau de Hougoumont at Waterloo.

I wondered about the crossed axes as well .... the image (found on a French website) wasn't specifically identified, although I did save it under its original file name - "COUL_GRNDG" .....   I  wondered if he might be a member of a Pioneer Company of his Regiment, but he doesn't seem to be otherwise kitted out as a Pioneer, so thought the symbol might have some other significance.

I assume that he is from the Second Empire period - 1852-1870 - albeit fairly late, since the Chassepot rifle wasn't introduced until 1866/67.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 15, 2009, 10:52:29 am
Winchester-Hotchkiss I believe.  Bolt action, 2 piece stock.  Experimental issue in the Southwest. The Scout up top has a Trapdoor, the other scout looks like a Winchester 73.

I knew I couldn't fool you, neat picture though.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 15, 2009, 10:56:50 am
Well, the "crossed axes surmounted by a bomb" badge does seem to have signified a Pioneer. 
Here is another image I located under the file name "SAPEURS" -  note they have the same device on their sleeves .......

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/sapeurs1cropped.jpg)

(They are also armed with Chassepot rifles, by the way .....)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 15, 2009, 11:19:03 am
Found this image captioned "Khyber Rifles 1895".  Despite the late date, note that they are armed with .577 Snider-Enfield rifles .....
which is entirely in keeping with British policy, following the 1857 Bengal Mutiny, to equip native troops with obsolete firearms, at least
one design behind what was issued to British Regulars.  In this case, they are actually  two designs behind, since the British Army
had in 1888 adopted the Lee-Metford magazine rifle to supplant the Martini-Henry .....

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/Khyberrifles1895.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pitspitr on November 15, 2009, 01:06:23 pm
Winchester-Hotchkiss I believe.  Bolt action, 2 piece stock.  Experimental issue in the Southwest. The Scout up top has a Trapdoor, the other scout looks like a Winchester 73.
The receiver on the Winchester looks pretty long. Might it be a '76 or is it's length just an optical illusion?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 15, 2009, 01:09:56 pm
The receiver on the Winchester looks pretty long. Might it be a '76 or is it's length just an optical illusion?

Was my thought also.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pitspitr on November 15, 2009, 01:12:07 pm
OK a few more from Butcher and the Nebraska National Guard in 1904-05, BTW these were taken at Ft. Kearny after the buildings were gone and before it was a historical site.

Posting a new guard:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/zz2.jpg)

Three officers outside a tent:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/zz3.jpg)


Could someone more knowledgeable than me about post turn of the century US army uniforms please coment on these uniforms, especially the center man of the three officers outside a tent? The blouse looks like the M-1899 enlisted blouse. I'm thinking I'd like to go with the Nebraska National Guard for my Expansion Era Match uniform.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 15, 2009, 01:18:43 pm
Well, someone should know more, but like today they kinda got the bottom of the barrel from the supply system.  Although I have heard they were one of the first NG units to get Krags, but that has to do with the Lakota Reservations just over the border.

I've heard Minnisota used trapdoors till 1940.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 15, 2009, 03:13:21 pm
They all appear enlsted, or wearing an enlisted uniform.  The one in the center definatily is wearing the M1899 enlisted Kahki Uniform, as do most all in the previous pictures.  The outer two appear to be wearing wool, and could be the later M1912 wool drab uniform.  However, they both have roll collars, which the 1912 did NOT have, so i'm a bit puzzled.  They look like M1899s made up in drab wool. (which was what the M1912 really was, but with a standing military collar instead of the rolled collar on the enlisted version.)  They're all wearing the 1904 russet belts, and the sabre handles date later as well.  I'd put them around 1912/13 perhaps.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 15, 2009, 03:21:16 pm
They all appear enlsted, not Officer.  The one in the center definatily is wearing the M1899 enlisted Kahki Uniform, as do most in the previous pictures.  The outer two appear to be wearing wool, and could be the later M1912 wool drab uniform.

I was just going off the notes for it.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pitspitr on November 15, 2009, 04:34:05 pm
They all appear enlsted, or wearing an enlisted uniform.  The one in the center definatily is wearing the M1899 enlisted Kahki Uniform, as do most all in the previous pictures.  The outer two appear to be wearing wool, and could be the later M1912 wool drab uniform.  However, they both have roll collars, which the 1912 did NOT have, so i'm a bit puzzled.  They look like M1899s made up in drab wool. (which was what the M1912 really was, but with a standing military collar instead of the rolled collar on the enlisted version.)  They're all wearing the 1904 russet belts, and the sabre handles date later as well.  I'd put them around 1912/13 perhaps.
Span-Am and later is a bit outside of my expertise, but that's about what I thought.... Except for the fact that Solomon Butcher viewed his photography a document in history and was known for his meticulous notes. If he wrote that they were taken in 1905 and were officers, I'd take that as gospil. Could a National Guard unit have had uniform regulations that perscribed a US GI enlisted man's uniform for it's officers. I would think that would be extremely unpopular with the officers. ::) ???

What is the disk ahead of the crossed rifles? Which brings up another question. If they are indeed enlisted infantry (Crossed rifles) why would they have sabres?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 15, 2009, 04:47:34 pm
Jerry, I have found a couple pictures in the Butcher Collection that I might question a few things, but only a very few. 
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 15, 2009, 05:31:14 pm
I assumed they were enlisted cavalry.  But looking closer, those do not look like standard cavalry sabres.  The crossed appliance could be a crossed rifle and sabre, the device for Militia.  These could be Militia staff officers, at least 2 in custom uniforms.  That could explain the collars and the new issue belts.  Could the round device  be a Nebraska coat of arms?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Texas Lawdog on November 15, 2009, 06:46:48 pm
Drydock, That sounds like a research job for Delmonico!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 16, 2009, 02:03:15 pm
These two images were just listed on eBay -

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/3soldiers2.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/6soldiers2.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Leo Tanner on November 16, 2009, 03:26:55 pm
Good work RJ!  Those are both excellant photos.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Texas Lawdog on November 16, 2009, 05:50:11 pm
I hope to purchase bayonets for both my Trapdoor and Krag in the near future. Great pictures of the uniforms and rifles. Thanks, Rattlesnake Jack!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 16, 2009, 05:56:46 pm
Drydock, That sounds like a research job for Delmonico!

I think Mustang Greg needs this assignment. ;)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Texas Lawdog on November 16, 2009, 06:14:10 pm
Mustang Gregg might have better access to that info.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 16, 2009, 08:56:32 pm
Canadian Infantrymen during the 1885 North West Rebellion.  All rifles seen in these photos are .577 Snider-Enfields, with the exception of the Winchester held by the chap reclining, left front, in the second photograph.  That picture was taken at Medicine Hat (where I live) so the Infantryman would be members of the Company stationed here from the Halifax (Nova Scotia) Provisional Battalion, and the fellow with the Winchester is likely a Rocky Mountain Ranger ....

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/th_troopsenroute.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/?action=view&current=troopsenroute.jpg)  (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/th_MilitiaatMedicineHat.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/?action=view&current=MilitiaatMedicineHat.jpg)  (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/th_militia_camplife_2.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/?action=view&current=militia_camplife_2.jpg)  (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/th_MilitiaatWinnipeg.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/?action=view&current=MilitiaatWinnipeg.jpg) 
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/th_Militia_2.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/?action=view&current=Militia_2.jpg)  (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/th_militia_camplife_1.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/?action=view&current=militia_camplife_1.jpg)  (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/th_militia_camplife_3.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/?action=view&current=militia_camplife_3.jpg)  (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/th_militia_camplife_4.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/1885%20Rebellion/?action=view&current=militia_camplife_4.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Grapeshot on November 25, 2009, 04:58:34 pm
Makes ya wonder what happened to those old 3" ordnance rifles (last produced in 1865!)

A lot were converted to 3.2 inch breech loading cannons by re-boreing and re-rifling to 3.2 inch and installing a Krupp type sliding breech block.  Thyey were mounted on new steel cariages.

If you are artillery history buffs, 3.2 inchs is the bore size of our 81 mm mortars.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 29, 2009, 07:44:49 pm
Movin' pichers!

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/edhtml/edac.html#W
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on December 29, 2009, 09:06:02 pm
These are some guys that are the reason we went from the .38 New Army/Navy Revolver to reissued M1873 SAAs and a couple of other .45 Colt caliber revolvers, finally ending up with the M1911.

They aren't large men, but they are very tough and incredibly agile - more than a match for an above average Soldier or Marine in close combat. If they are fatally wounded, but still able to fight, they will still go to work with those razor sharp blades.

(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/2Moros.jpg?t=1262139787) 



So, what is this US Army Lieutenant in the Philippine Constabulary armed with?  (We all know you what it is, Col Drydock!)

Hey, that holster and belt isn't regulation! :P

(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/2dLtConstabulary.jpg?t=1262140829)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on January 04, 2010, 07:04:53 pm
Big, heavy servicable thing I'd say . . . Probably new . . .   ;)

You sure he's army?  That looks like an eagle/globe/anchor on his hat.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Leo Tanner on January 04, 2010, 10:18:53 pm
Marine Corps would explain the dour look on his face.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on January 11, 2010, 06:50:29 pm
On the line in the Phillipines
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on January 13, 2010, 06:19:44 pm


(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/2dLtConstabulary.jpg?t=1262140829)
Oh yeah, this guy is Philippine Constabulary, wearing their trademark non standard leather and armed with what the Constabulary considered he best jungle fighting pistol.

 If you were getting sent to the Philippines in the early 1900s and you were in the Philippine Constabulary, you got issued one of these. If regular Army and you could scrounge enough money for the new technology, you bought a New Service or one of these, otherwise, you bought an old SAA or-settled for the issue .38.

Well, it's former US Army Issue, but they get no love today. So, what is it? C'mon! Don't you people like silly question and answer quizzes?  ;D
(http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo5/TimmyV_2008/100_3919.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Texas Lawdog on January 13, 2010, 06:58:56 pm
I was lucky enough to buy one of those Constabluary revolvers in 38 long colt. It's a honey.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on January 13, 2010, 07:56:51 pm
Charles, I'd just about bet thats a New Service in that holster.  The reflection off the frame next to the hammer seems to have the longer sweep of the NS, with no divot for the loading gate.  Same with the gentle hump at the top of the grip.  The hammer spur seems too low as well.  IMHO . . . .  ???
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on January 18, 2010, 09:57:59 pm
At the end of this video is a nice shot of a squad doing a rapid fire demonstration with Trapdoor rifles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHicAr1-uZs&feature=related
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: pony express on January 19, 2010, 10:18:29 pm
My first thought was also the 1878, but when I compared it to some pictures, the hump on the grip looks wrong. Shape of the frame beside the hammer wrong too, Drydock could be right, maybe a New Service? On the other hand, it DOES look like a bird's head shape grip, unless it's just the camera angle and shadows that make it look that way.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on January 23, 2010, 11:42:55 am
My first thought was also the 1878, but when I compared it to some pictures, the hump on the grip looks wrong. Shape of the frame beside the hammer wrong too, Drydock could be right, maybe a New Service? On the other hand, it DOES look like a bird's head shape grip, unless it's just the camera angle and shadows that make it look that way.

This picture has always been controversial and I have seen all the points you and Col Drydock speak of!

There is no  hump in the middle of the slope from the rear sight notch to the top of the grip at the backstrap, but there is the shadow of what may be the cartridge guide that is milled into the right side of the frame that leads to the load gate on a 78 or 02.

The hump at the top of the back of the gripframe is small like a New Service, but the back of the grip looks very rounded like a 78 or 02.

The hammer spur seems too low, but, there seems to be a lot of distance to the top of the gripframe.

The gripframe looks too long, but appears to be a birdshead/round butt

Everything that points to it maybe being one model has a counterpoint, so I have to say that I can't really say for sure whether it is a New Service or an M1902.

One reason it is so hard to tell whether it is a New Service or an M1902 is that photos were frequently touched up with whatever the artists conception happened to be-kind of an archaic form of photoshop. I can not say what it is with absolute certainty The two Colt collectors I know of that own both New Services and M1902s say it is an M1902-but even that doesn't say for sure what was in that man's holster 100 years ago. One thing people agree on is that it is a big Colt double action revolver! :)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on January 23, 2010, 01:53:55 pm
I'm at work right no, but I've got some decent photo programs at home that may allow us to get a better look at it, although they might be a bit funny colored, like these two:

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/Delmonico_1885/Copyofaaa.jpg)

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/Delmonico_1885/untitled-1.jpg)

And the original:

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/Delmonico_1885/IMG_0185.jpg)

Not a late 1860's picture like Wison says in The Peacekeepers. ;)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Grapeshot on January 23, 2010, 03:56:30 pm
Makes ya wonder what happened to those old 3" ordnance rifles (last produced in 1865!)

A lot of the 3 inch rifles were bored out and re-rifled to 3.2 inch, and the rear of the barrels were cut off and a krupp style breech block installed.  They were also re-mounted in a steel carraige to better stand up to the newer powder being used as a propellant in the brass self contained cartridges.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Leo Tanner on January 23, 2010, 05:17:03 pm
Trying to figure out the vintage on this shot.  I'm sure you all can figger it out.

(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg133/leotanner/6soldiers2.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on January 23, 2010, 07:17:02 pm
Krags, 1895 forage caps, 5 button blouses with roll collar, The Krags appear to have the 1898/1902 ramp style sight.  Those stick out more than the flatter 1896 or 1901 ladder sights.  I'd say between 1899 and 1903
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Leo Tanner on January 23, 2010, 07:52:57 pm
Thank you Sir!  I had nothing but the picture it's self to go on.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Texas Lawdog on January 24, 2010, 01:25:44 am
Leo, These folks that post on this thread know their stuff on these military uniforms of the last 150 years or so.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on February 09, 2010, 08:38:29 pm
I like to search out the original books. Bought a nice "coffee table" book about the Spanish American War. Printed in 1898 so there is no doubt as to the origin of the hundreds of huge photos. Brought it with me to the '09 Muster and a few people looked at it. $20 shipped on Ebay.

This photo was described as being a Sergeant in the Rough Riders. The holster is much like the right hand draw M1889 Naval Services holster. It is set up like a drop style Army holster, but at a straighter angle for right hand draw from the right side.  It's either a"field" modification of an '89 or a purpose built private purchase holster.

Definitely not regulation. Always glad to see people thinking outside the box

(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/fby-012l-1-1.jpg?t=1257814283)
Hello!
     As I was looking at this picture it occurred to me the holster might be suspended from one of the brass wire holster hangers.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Texas Lawdog on February 10, 2010, 09:55:05 am
I think that was 20 dollars well spent, Ned.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 16, 2010, 12:20:44 pm
Just saved this period photo, and a couple of cropped details, from an eBay listing -

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/19thusvolunteers_lowres.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/19thusvolunteers_detail1_lowres.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/19thusvolunteers_detail2_lowres.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on April 03, 2010, 09:37:59 am
I just found this, says Virginia, April 1865, 12 pound Whitworth breechloader:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/02499r.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on April 03, 2010, 10:22:53 am
A fine piece from the United Kingdom.   
The American Civil War made a great deal of money for British arms manufacturers ....  ::)
(Which GAF event did you have in mind for this one, Del?   ;) )
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on April 03, 2010, 11:01:54 am
A fine piece from the United Kingdom.   
The American Civil War made a great deal of money for British arms manufacturers ....  ::)
(Which GAF event did you have in mind for this one, Del?   ;) )

We'lll take it to the 1904 St. Louis Expo and make puffed rice. ;D
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Texas Lawdog on April 03, 2010, 11:06:23 am
Rice Krispies! SNAP KRACKLE  POP!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on April 03, 2010, 02:26:45 pm
Couple of Dahlgens, Charleston Harbor, S.C. Rear Admiral John A. Dahlgren standing by a Dahlgren gun on deck of U.S.S. Pawnee.

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/02988r.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Sgt McGilicutty on April 03, 2010, 02:47:17 pm
Looks like a guy could shave using his reflection in that gun!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on April 29, 2010, 01:04:57 pm
Came across this stereoview for sale on ebay this morning, and thought it was an interesting image of SA War era rifles and kit.  Described as "1st Illinois" .....

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Americans/1stIllinois.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on April 29, 2010, 04:00:20 pm
Great shot!  SAW state unit in issue gear, dark blue shirt, baggy sky blue trousers, white infantry stripe, dark brown leggings, M1884 trapdoors with buffington sights, tan single row 50 round mills belt.  Note the only sign of rank on that Sgt. is the 1" leg stripe.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on April 29, 2010, 04:43:52 pm
Great shot!  SAW state unit in issue gear, dark blue shirt, baggy sky blue trousers, white infantry stripe, dark brown leggings, M1884 trapdoors with buffington sights, tan single row 50 round mills belt.  Note the only sign of rank on that Sgt. is the 1" leg stripe.

Well. to my untutored eye it just "looked good" ......
..... although I admit to resisting the urge to add "but then what do I know?" to my original comment to that effect ....   ;D
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on April 29, 2010, 06:27:10 pm
Well, no doubt they'd look better in Kilts, but we ain't that advanced yet . . .  :P ::) ;D
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Captain Barrett on April 30, 2010, 07:04:59 pm
Drydock,

Quote from: Drydock
Well, no doubt they'd look better in Kilts, but we ain't that advanced yet . . .  :P ::) ;D
My friend, I doubt you have the legs for a kilt. Least I doubt you have a good enough tan. You'd look like two pink knitting needles sticking out of the sewing basket... ;D :o
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on April 30, 2010, 08:40:05 pm
Oh, they would'nt look near that good . . .  :-X
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on May 06, 2010, 07:34:40 pm
OK slightly out of the period, but cool, cadets at Kearney Nebraska Highschool, cirea 1906-07  Picture 13540 in the Butcher Collection:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/13640v.jpg)

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/ca1.jpg)

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/ca2.jpg)

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/ca3.jpg)

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/ca4.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: pony express on May 07, 2010, 09:42:28 pm
Most of them seem pretty good a scowling for the camera!

I never thought about it before, but if(seems like a BIG IF) we had any younger shooters, then a cadet impression should work well for GAF. Lots of different uniforms to work with. Those in the pic don't look like they would be that difficult to make up, except maybe the caps.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 09, 2010, 08:43:13 pm
All those M1889 New Navys.  One handed and two handed holds
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on May 14, 2010, 05:09:52 pm
All those M1889 New Navys.  One handed and two handed holds
I have that one, but was saving it for the next time someone said they didn't shoot 2 handed "back then"-all just for fun, of course. ;)

I kid around sometimes and tell people I used a time machine and gave the Sailors some rum (Sailors will do just about anything for some good rum)  in exchange for them posing 2 handed with their new fangled trigger cocking Colts, then I made sure the photo ended up in The Library of Congress! Gets a good laugh from anyone that knows anything about Sailors and shares my strange sense of firearms humor.

Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on May 14, 2010, 05:27:26 pm
A good view of the USS Vesuvius and its three huge air powered dynamite guns-this would make for some fun range time!

http://www.hazegray.org/features/vesuvius/

(http://www.hazegray.org/features/vesuvius/vesu01.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 14, 2010, 05:39:10 pm
Rum?!   ;D
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on May 14, 2010, 08:26:12 pm
All those M1889 New Navys.  One handed and two handed holds

Note that the two-handed hold (.... strictly speaking, it is actually a wrist support grip, rather than a true two handed-hold .....) is only being employed by the sailors who are kneeling.  I'd wager it is a special stance for long range shooting.

All of the tars who are standing are utilizing an arm-almost-fully-extended one-hand hold .... just like the Good Lord intended!

 ;D
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 14, 2010, 08:52:43 pm
Some are wrist holds, some have the hand in what we'd consider a full modern cradle hold.  And take a close look at the 4th standing sailor from the left!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on May 14, 2010, 10:14:00 pm
......  And take a close look at the 4th standing sailor from the left!

Definitely missed that!  

(But then I'm an old, half-blind Canuck, eh?   :-\  )
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pitspitr on May 14, 2010, 10:43:31 pm
Definitely missed that!  

(But then I'm an old, half-blind Canuck, eh?   :-\  )
Eh!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 15, 2010, 03:43:46 am
Rum?  ???
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Frenchie on May 15, 2010, 09:38:26 am
Aye, rum! This is one of those things that transcend national pride and make all those who plough the waves into brothers. That's why I submit Pusser's Rum (http://www.pussers.com/) as the best.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on May 15, 2010, 09:53:00 am
Rum?  ???
Is rum only a Royal Navy tradition?   ???

It was issued daily (a pint, diluted 3:1) to British sailors for over 300 years, from the mid 1600's until 1970!  (The Royal Canadian Navy did not discontinue the daily rum issue until 1972 ...)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 15, 2010, 09:55:56 am
Ah, Nelsons blood!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on May 15, 2010, 10:02:05 am
Ah, Nelsons blood!

AYE!!!   ;D

Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: S. Quentin Quale, Esq. on May 15, 2010, 12:00:28 pm
The USN tradition of drinking aboard ship came to an end after the passage of the Volstead Act when then SECNAV Josephus Daniels ended the practice by Instruction.

I understand that from time to time there is a modern "beer call."  I've seen photos of the event aboard a Bird Farm visiting Diego Garcia.  I've heard of it happening during long deployments when the Captain orders a "rope yarn" and everybody over 18 gets one.

While I enjoy Pussers, I prefer Myers.   8)

I've also got a set of signal flags I bought from the Pusser's web site so I can signal "Splice the Mainbrace" when the spirit moves me!   8)

SQQ
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on May 15, 2010, 05:51:25 pm
We had a beer call after we left Somalia, since we hadn't had any liberty calls for about two and half months.  Every man aboard was allowed two beers.  (Budweiser, as I recall.)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 15, 2010, 09:35:46 pm
Just to ease things back on track here:
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 15, 2010, 09:37:50 pm
Not historical, but a favorite none the less:
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on May 15, 2010, 09:45:29 pm
Just to ease things back on track here:
Krags?!  Those are '03 Springfields.  Another fine weapon!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on May 15, 2010, 09:46:28 pm
Not historical, but a favorite none the less:
I have to see that scene on Youtube every so often.  Motivation!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 15, 2010, 10:57:34 pm
Oops!  Wrong picture, fixed it, thanks Ned.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pitspitr on May 16, 2010, 08:44:56 am
I have to see that scene on Youtube every so often.  Motivation!
Pardon my ignorance, but what should I search to find it on you tube or do you have a link?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on May 16, 2010, 11:49:26 am
Youtube The Wind and the Lion, Part 8.  Great scene!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 19, 2010, 09:16:52 pm
Here's another. 
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pitspitr on May 20, 2010, 05:55:08 am
I'm kind of surprised that a competitive rifle team woldn't be armed with the "latest & greatest"
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on May 20, 2010, 07:36:12 am
Not that surprising in that the Navy probably didn't have many '03's at that point.  Besides, the Krag was always known to be a VERY accurate rifle.  By the way, did you notice that Cornhusker in the front row???!!!!!!  Who'd have thought?!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 20, 2010, 09:47:42 am
Krags in the Hands of Navy, Marine and National Guard competitors regularly beat the Army 03 equipped team for some years,  Around 1910 it was outlawed at the interservice compitions, you had to field the 03.  Whatever its faults, it was a superbly accurate rifle.  The round itself was more ballisticaly consistant, and retained better crosswind performance at extended ranges than the early 150 grain 03 loading.  One of the reasons the 1927 match load went to a heavier bullet.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on May 20, 2010, 10:21:15 am
Now we know!  You know it had to be embarassing to think the "obsolete" Krag was more accurate than the new "high speed" '03.  It's interesting that the powers that be outlawed it for competition.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on May 20, 2010, 10:52:15 am
Actually, if the US practice was similar to that followed in the British Empire, the whole purpose of service rifle competitions was to compete with the current primary-issue service rifle.  So, after an "overlap period" (the duration of which may have been specified in the rules, or might have been  dictated by the point in time when the '03 reached a certain "issuance level" ) the '03 would have been the mandated rifle for use in such competitions.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on May 20, 2010, 02:03:14 pm
Good point, but I'll bet it had a lot to do with the older weapon outperforming the newer one.  It has changed over the years, though.  For years after the M14 was superseded by the M16, the older rifle was used by virtually all the service rifle teams because it was better for competition.  (That has changed at least to some extent due to teams learning to use the M16 effectively at extreme range.)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 20, 2010, 04:59:32 pm
There were no such rules in US regulations, really there still are not, thus M1903s were used by service teams well into the 70s, with M-14s currently still preferred to the M-16.  Seperate catagories were created just to get the 16 into service compitition.  The M-16 gained more ground when a Lower velocity heavy bullet round was developed . . . where have I seen this before . . .
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on May 20, 2010, 05:27:14 pm
Progress is a beautiful thing!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Grizzly Adams on May 20, 2010, 09:53:28 pm
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/grizzly3674/TT-3.jpg)

This image is pretty well know, and now you know the rest of the story! 

http://www.tendertale.com/ttp13.html
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Grizzly Adams on May 20, 2010, 10:05:10 pm
USS Texas crew with mascots! 1895

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/grizzly3674/USSTexascrewmenandmascots1895.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 21, 2010, 11:26:15 am
An interesting reinactment,  espicaily the Spanish weapons and uniforms   http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://fortdesoto.com/images/krag.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.fortdesoto.com/nov_weapons.php&h=354&w=437&sz=26&tbnid=JJEnV7j7LM-W8M:&tbnh=102&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3DKrag%2Bpictures&usg=__wijU3k3dBTzH2KDjk64WjYdOkDU=&ei=gbP2S7XFJ4v6NZD26L0I&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=7&ct=image&ved=0CCIQ9QEwBg
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 21, 2010, 12:02:02 pm
Here's a 1903 National Guard team with Trapdoors! 
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 21, 2010, 12:06:04 pm
A terrifying sight!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: pony express on May 21, 2010, 09:17:29 pm
The guy standing, far right appears to have a non-standard front sight on his trapdoor.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on May 21, 2010, 10:11:47 pm
Thats just the issue sight cover.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Grizzly Adams on May 25, 2010, 02:05:22 pm
USS New York gun crew.  1895

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/grizzly3674/USSNewYorkguncrew.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on June 08, 2010, 08:31:04 pm
Outstanding resolution in this photo of  Photo of Lieut. Stamford after the battle of Yang Sing.This is described as typical sleeping quarters of an officer in China during the Boxer Rebellion in 1900.

Strange, but does his saber look like a Marine Mamaluke?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/US_military_quarters_during_Boxer_Rebellion_HD-SN-99-01988.jpg/800px-US_military_quarters_during_Boxer_Rebellion_HD-SN-99-01988.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: River City John on June 09, 2010, 06:59:37 pm
Looks like a Chinese executioner's sword or similar. Not enough curve for the mamaluke-pattern to me.

RCJ
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Frenchie on June 11, 2010, 09:26:30 pm
Strange, but does his saber look like a Marine Mamaluke?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/US_military_quarters_during_Boxer_Rebellion_HD-SN-99-01988.jpg/800px-US_military_quarters_during_Boxer_Rebellion_HD-SN-99-01988.jpg)

A qualified Yes, if the light is hitting it just right to hide the rivets in the handle, and given the limitations of the resolution. For some reason my mouse's Magnify function isn't working right now.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on June 12, 2010, 07:49:18 pm
Who knows, it could even be a present from one of the Russians that was there, but I can't tell if it has the concave area on the pommel like the Russian swords.

(http://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=170665&sid=9517e64db9420b7541a5f4e9cd43cf02)


Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on June 12, 2010, 08:14:36 pm
Gear Check
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on June 14, 2010, 01:20:23 pm
Marines!

 ......with M1895 .236 Navy Rifles, ready for inspection.

(http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//post-156-1179025948.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: captmack on July 02, 2010, 11:05:07 am
Not a historic photo but Capt Mack, 10th Cavalry ready for action!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: captmack on August 11, 2010, 09:51:30 pm
A Gentleman from my hometown of Malakoff, TX.  He had to be one of the first black Commissioned Officers:

James W. Smothers, 1896-1975. During World War I, he served in the 366th Infantry and was commissioned a Second Lieutenant in 1918.

He went on to get his Doctorate in Education and opened a home and school for outcast black children from the Dallas area.  Operated the school on his own until Malakoff integrated in the late 60's.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on July 04, 2011, 08:14:36 pm
Great stuff here, back to the top!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on July 06, 2011, 12:42:26 pm
Just came across this rather interesting colorized postcard image of Boer War era Victorian Mounted Rifles (i.e from Victoria, Australia) listed on eBay.    They appear to be armed with Martini-Henry rifles and the yataghan-style sword bayonet .....

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/VictorianMountedRifles_BoerWar.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: pony express on July 06, 2011, 10:40:41 pm
Nice pic, RSJ- I think it wouldn't be hard to make up that outfit! Similar trousers to US Span-Am period, Kahiki jacket wouldn't be hard to "modify", Hat would not be too difficult, either.

Similar to a German tropical outfit I considered, but with easier headgear!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on July 10, 2011, 10:58:44 am
  Marines!

 Entering Santo Domingo-1916.

(http://www.corbisimages.com/images/F4279.jpg?size=67&uid=d25d396e-1c6f-4960-b5cb-3a04be78fdda)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Captain Barrett on July 19, 2011, 12:00:48 pm
(http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo17/artisanccw/DSCF0838.jpg)

I own this one. I am looking for a belt and bayonet for it...
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on July 19, 2011, 12:41:43 pm
All right, now I'm jealous!  Good luck on the belt.  If you can find drawings of it, S & S has some of the hardware, and maybe someone like J. Hunley can build one for you.  Hope you can get everything you need, and then come shoot with us!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Captain Barrett on July 19, 2011, 01:14:03 pm
Neiderlander,

I have MANY pics of the Lee Navy ammo belt. It is a cross between a Mills belt, but had pebbled leather covers for each pouch. I knew S&S has the suspender parts...
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on July 19, 2011, 04:25:45 pm
Mighty nice rifle, Captain!

On another note, I just noticed something in the colorized image of Victorian Mounted rifles, above .....  a unique but most appropriate  unit mascot, on the extreme left, center!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on July 19, 2011, 05:27:07 pm
According to the S & S catalog, they have the suspender hardware, the C-closure, and the bayonet hanger.  That should be a start.  If you need brass finials or anything like that, any decent machinist should be able to turn them out.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on July 26, 2011, 01:29:11 pm
What you might have to do is get one of the Blue 100 round Krag mills belts, then popp the seams on the loops and sew the bottoms to make the pouchs, then rivet the flaps.  Might get you in the ballpark.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on September 09, 2011, 07:29:05 pm
Found this one of some Boers.  Good referance for one of our campfire disscussions at the DOMM:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/irregulars/459px-Afrikaner_Commandos2.jpg)

Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on September 09, 2011, 08:44:56 pm
That one looks like you could get into this game pretty reasonably!  Mausers are plentiful and cheap.  Long Lees, on the other hand.....
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on September 09, 2011, 10:23:39 pm
..... Mausers are plentiful and cheap.  Long Lees, on the other hand .....
Yes, they are reserved for the "Elite"......    ;)
That is why those two chaps got to stand in front, while their Mauser-toting comrades were relegated to the rear! ;D
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: wildman1 on September 10, 2011, 03:51:31 am
Is that a Wallaby, mate? WM
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on September 12, 2011, 06:43:54 pm

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/irregulars/459px-Afrikaner_Commandos2.jpg)
Boers liked to do mods to their weapons, but that's the first time I've seen a turned down bolt handle on a full length Boer 7mm Mauser.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: JimBob on September 12, 2011, 08:15:16 pm
Boers liked to do mods to their weapons, but that's the first time I've seen a turned down bolt handle on a full length Boer 7mm Mauser.

That's not a modification done by the Boers.Those rifles fall into a particular serial number range of the M1896 Boer ordered Mausers and came from the factory with bent bolt handles.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on September 12, 2011, 10:54:23 pm
Here is some more I've found:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/irregulars/boer.jpg)

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/irregulars/boer_boers.jpg)

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/irregulars/ReadyForWarW.jpg)

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/irregulars/sl4.jpg)

Also German "Volunteers"

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/irregulars/bat-lad1.jpg)

And Jan Smuts with a Danish Krag:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/irregulars/smuts.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on October 24, 2011, 08:50:28 pm
Great Material, so BTT!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: US Scout on October 24, 2011, 09:08:18 pm
Love the Boer photos!  Favorite time period for me.

US Scout
Brig Gen, GAF
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Grizzly Adams on November 06, 2011, 12:27:40 pm
Is rum only a Royal Navy tradition?   ???

It was issued daily (a pint, diluted 3:1) to British sailors for over 300 years, from the mid 1600's until 1970!  (The Royal Canadian Navy did not discontinue the daily rum issue until 1972 ...)


The end of the rum ration in the Royal Navy is know as "Black Tot Day."  The US Navy ended the practice on 1 September, 1862.  History does not record what US Bluejackets called it! :)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 28, 2011, 06:24:58 pm
(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/No_2_Company_Bombay_Sappers_and_Miners_China_1900.jpg)


Soldiers of No 2 Field Company, Bombay Sappers and Miners on duty in China in 1900. The mule carries the tools required for field engineering tasks.


(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/Bombay_Sappers_Uniform.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 29, 2011, 05:30:43 pm
Outstanding resolution in this photo of  Photo of Lieut. Stamford after the battle of Yang Sing.This is described as typical sleeping quarters of an officer in China during the Boxer Rebellion in 1900.

Strange, but does his saber look like a Marine Mamaluke?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/US_military_quarters_during_Boxer_Rebellion_HD-SN-99-01988.jpg/800px-US_military_quarters_during_Boxer_Rebellion_HD-SN-99-01988.jpg)

I found a copy of this at about 6 meg, I haven't had time to work with it yet.  If I don't get to it in a few days someone send me a nasty-gram and remind me, I've got it down-loaded at home, it's in a TIF format and I need to crop and convert sections to JPEG to post.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Bull Schmitt on November 30, 2011, 10:28:48 am
If there are no objections I would like to add some of these photos to the GAF web site home page of random pictures that are displayed.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 30, 2011, 11:18:30 am
If there are no objections I would like to add some of these photos to the GAF web site home page of random pictures that are displayed.

I say go for it, I'd like to see them.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 30, 2011, 06:12:34 pm
Please do!  And mix in some Muster photo's as well!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on November 30, 2011, 07:21:24 pm
I found a copy of this at about 6 meg, I haven't had time to work with it yet.  If I don't get to it in a few days someone send me a nasty-gram and remind me, I've got it down-loaded at home, it's in a TIF format and I need to crop and convert sections to JPEG to post.

OK as promised:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/WX4Ffbm1.jpg)

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/myxD4nhI.jpg)

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/gcziC1pn.jpg)

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/fTDr46KC.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: pony express on November 30, 2011, 07:57:50 pm
I notice his campaign hat has the round screen vent, like the pre-1889 model.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on December 01, 2011, 08:57:58 am
There was a time period 1859-75 when the 1850 Foot Officers  sword was adopted for marine officers.  Not a popular decision and the marmaluk sword became standard again.

Wondering if the LT fiqured the 1850 foot was actually a better choice if really needed.  It certainly offers better hand protection.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pitspitr on December 01, 2011, 11:35:11 am
I notice his campaign hat has the round screen vent, like the pre-1889 model.
I don't know, it looks a lot bigger to me than the M-1876 plus it's screened.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Durango Flinthart on December 01, 2011, 11:48:34 am
 This Japanese Police Saber has a similar profile, but scabbard only single ring.
 
 http://therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_t099.html
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on December 01, 2011, 12:46:36 pm
I isolated the hat and worked on just it, I think this is as good as I can get it:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/myxD4nhI-1.jpg)

Hmm, didn't up-load as good, I'll see what I can do later, got to head to work.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on December 02, 2011, 10:41:28 am
OK let's see it this is better:

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/3Dn9XE0Y.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on December 02, 2011, 02:05:45 pm
F. Burgess used to sell those ventilator screens.  I don't know if anyone does now or not.  They looked fairly practical to me.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: pony express on December 03, 2011, 01:02:11 am
In another thread, FTrooper mentions a model 1899 campaign hat that changed from the snowflake vent, back to a screen vent, about 1" diameter. Maybe the marines used something similar? Or maybe as an officer, it is private purchased?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on December 03, 2011, 11:38:29 am
This Japanese Police Saber has a similar profile, but scabbard only single ring.
 
 http://therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_t099.html

On second look, brass down the back of hilt should have clued me in that it was not the 1850 FOS.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Hangtown Frye on December 04, 2011, 07:42:25 pm
The saddle being cleaned by the trooper in the background looks to be a private purchase Phillips saddle.  Interesting.

Cheers,

Gordon
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on December 04, 2011, 10:18:56 pm
I just noticed that Coon Creek has "hat vents" of some kind listed in their button section.  They don't have a picture.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on December 04, 2011, 11:20:33 pm
(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/Kalv1t9Y.jpg)

I  can't make out the label but I'm guessing the can is milk, the cup he is eating out of looks like some of that early heavy aluminum stuff.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on December 05, 2011, 07:52:00 am
I'm sure the food isn't as tasty as what you put together, Del!  Probably as good as a lot of what I remember eating in the field, though.  (Ground beef in barbecue sauce again!  Instant heartburn!)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: River City John on December 05, 2011, 10:19:55 am
F. Burgess used to sell those ventilator screens.  I don't know if anyone does now or not.  They looked fairly practical to me.

Every hardware store sells those round aereators for faucets. (Used to be a ready supply in every faucet for putting a screen in certain pipe bowls for smoking.) Couple with a large size brass grommet used in tentage or flags, and you could reproduce it fairly close I think. Although I'm not familiar with that exact type, and from the picture it may not be a brass frame circling the screen vent.

RCJ
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on January 16, 2012, 08:12:56 pm
BTT!  Hopalong, you might want to look at some of these!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on January 16, 2012, 08:28:03 pm
I've been in contact with Jim Kanne at Eureka Arsenal, and he offers pretty much all the period U.S. hats.  He also still offers the shoes, so he's got both ends covered!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: FTrooper on January 16, 2012, 09:21:48 pm
So Jim Kanne at Eureka Arsenal is still in business?  Does that mean his health and recovery are better or is he limiting it to hats and shoes?

Chris Fischer
F-Troop

BTW, the image taken in China above, that is a M1899 Campaign hat with the large vent.  A really good picture of one indeed!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on January 16, 2012, 09:22:40 pm
The picture I cropped it from was right around 6 meg.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pitspitr on January 17, 2012, 06:18:14 am
So Jim Kanne at Eureka Arsenal is still in business?  Does that mean his health and recovery are better or is he limiting it to hats and shoes?
I spoke with him a couple of months ago and he is indeed limiting his business to hats and shoes... and the way I understood he's limiting the shoes to what he has on hand.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on January 17, 2012, 06:51:16 am
So Jim Kanne at Eureka Arsenal is still in business?  Does that mean his health and recovery are better or is he limiting it to hats and shoes?

Chris Fischer
F-Troop

BTW, the image taken in China above, that is a M1899 Campaign hat with the large vent.  A really good picture of one indeed!
From what he told me, his health only allows him to do the hats, and he still has quite a few shoes.  I think some of the health issues involved carpal tunnel, and he can't really make the brass parts anymore.  I asked him to send pictures of the hats he does so we could post them here.  I think they look really good, but you would be a better judge of that.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 17, 2012, 10:42:06 am
BTT!  Hopalong, you might want to look at some of these!

I will do that right now.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 17, 2012, 10:56:36 am
I just went through the thread and saved a bunch of pics. Sadly there were not many redlegs in it and most were SAW and later but I was happy with what I got.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: FTrooper on January 17, 2012, 03:59:22 pm
Thanks guys,

I see he updated his page and is going into hats full time, and expanding his range.  Looks like a good source for M1876 and all variations of the drab hat are or will be available soon.  Knowing Jim, they will be GREAT hats!

Chris Fischer
F-Troop
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 17, 2012, 04:06:15 pm
Thanks guys,

I see he updated his page and is going into hats full time, and expanding his range.  Looks like a good source for M1876 and all variations of the drab hat are or will be available soon.  Knowing Jim, they will be GREAT hats!

Chris Fischer
F-Troop

I ordered an M1883 campaign hat from him last month. I look forward to getting it. I will let you all know how it comes out.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 20, 2012, 08:50:32 pm
I will provede feedback and pictures when I get it. I spoke with him on the phone on Wednesday and we are looking at lat Feb or early March.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on January 21, 2012, 06:47:00 am
i hope yr going to do more than that hopalong,  we want pics , nice big pic so i can disect for you ;D

we're still waiting for some pictures of you for us to see if you are for real or just an internet troll. 
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on January 22, 2012, 09:10:00 am
Well deleting the post don't remove the quote.  The question is still there with no answer.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Texas Lawdog on January 22, 2012, 09:23:31 am
+1
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on January 22, 2012, 09:30:42 am
I do think we do have the answer. ;)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 22, 2012, 12:47:46 pm
Why do  Liten's posts keep disappearing? I get notified of them in my email and by the time I sign on they are gone.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on January 22, 2012, 12:54:09 pm
Why do  Liten's posts keep disappearing? I get notified of them in my email and by the time I sign on they are gone.

This last one he deleted because once again I asked him to post pictures of him in the uniforms he claims to own.

I'd say I'm near 100% sure he hasn't done any bussiness with the companies he claims to have or even has any uniforms.  Seen too many folks over the years tell you all about the cool stuff they own and then can never produce it when asked. ;)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Texas Lawdog on January 22, 2012, 03:48:52 pm
Del, Maybe doesn't have the time to take all those pictures of his extensive collection.  Maybe when he retires, he will have enough spare time to do so. I  carry mine around in the bed of my GMC, locked up. It's sorta like Fibber McGee's closet.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on January 22, 2012, 04:18:46 pm
Why do  Liten's posts keep disappearing? I get notified of them in my email and by the time I sign on they are gone.
To be honest, you're not missing much.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 22, 2012, 05:29:53 pm
I think I may be missing something. I get notification of things like

Quote
ohhh big yawn ,  you do no what yr going get is cowboy hat a  and that your going  shape  your selve

and

Quote
i hope yr going to post a some pic of this hat hopalong,   cause i cant wait to disect it , and for yr sake i hope there s a big inprovement to the hat i got from him 2 years back

and

Quote
no  yr all wrong thats  a  british 13th infanrty uniform, of the crimeon war


and

Quote
well thats all very nice mr trail rider , but we are all trying to get hopalong sorted, can we stick to the subject thanks



and my personal favorite
Quote
i dont think he no,s what he wants to be!  next week itll be a indain scout ::)

I  am saddened by the disappearance of his quotes I had planned on printing them out and using them the next time I run out of sandpaper.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on January 22, 2012, 07:17:44 pm
We get his kind on the dog forums also, they have all kinds of knowledge or so they claim but we never see pictures of their dogs. 

It must be sad to have nothing better to do than be an internet troll, but it's not my problem.  Funny not all folks in New Zealand are like him, I know some from the dog forums and they are nice people. 
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 22, 2012, 07:29:15 pm
Whenever he goes silent briefly, am hopeful that he has gone off to learn the English language and some minimal writing skills, but alas ...... 

 ::)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on January 22, 2012, 07:30:37 pm
Jack, my theory is that he's reloading his bong, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pitspitr on January 22, 2012, 08:43:45 pm
Ok, so as moderator I suppose I should mention that if we don't have anything nice to say...............Sand paper :o (snicker).... writing skills :-X (snicker)...Bong ;D (snicker)...Uh what was I saying?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on January 22, 2012, 09:01:44 pm
Okay, I'll be nice.....or at least not say anything!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 22, 2012, 09:13:10 pm
Yeah ... but he started it, Dad!   ;D
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 22, 2012, 10:26:48 pm
I will hold my tongue. (firmly in my cheek)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: River City John on January 23, 2012, 10:46:58 am
Liten up, people!
 ;D
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on January 23, 2012, 11:01:30 am
Historic Photos with GAF weapons in 'em, dangit!   ::)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: G.W. Strong on January 23, 2012, 11:23:29 am
I will try to get us back on track a bit. Here are some pics of GAF period British rifles.

Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 23, 2012, 05:51:43 pm
OK, OK .... Colonel! 

Here are a few 1870 studio shots of Riflemen of the 3rd Battalion of Canadian Militia, the Victoria Rifles (Montreal) which display their full marching order and Snider-Enfield rifles quite nicely:

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Canadian%20military/RiflemanWHolmes3rdVictoriaRiflesMontreal1870-1.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Canadian%20military/riflemanjacques3rdvictoriariflesmontreal1870-1.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Canadian%20military/riflemancsims3rdvictoriariflesmontreal1870.jpg)

(Although liten will undoubtedly be able to find fault with the authenticity of their arms and kit ......   ;) )
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on January 24, 2012, 05:42:00 am
Great pictures Jack!  The third one concerns me a little bit, as that young soldier seems a bit "happy"!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 24, 2012, 11:15:41 am
Probably just pleased that it is a studio session with a fake "snow scene" backdrop .... and that he isn't actually outside without a greatcoat!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on January 24, 2012, 02:16:09 pm
The third one concerns me a little bit, as that young soldier seems a bit "happy"!
He seems to really like that Snider. Great photos Rattlesnake!

Nice guns Hopalong.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on January 24, 2012, 04:17:38 pm
Thinking anyone wearing the shako and pom pom would look a little "Happy"
That and about $365 to Dirty Billy made me choose the 1881 helmet to wear with my dress 72 Frock Coat.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Hangtown Frye on January 24, 2012, 11:39:15 pm
Interesting, I wasn't aware that the Queen's forces had ever issued a painted haversack!  I had been under the impression that they were all "natural" or white in colour, rather than the black-painted (a la "US" Civil War) style.  Pretty neat to see that in a photo.  Thanks for posting it.

Cheers!

Gordon
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Grizzly Adams on January 24, 2012, 11:42:26 pm
Here's a picture of a USN landing party from the USS South Carolina (BB26) during the 1914, occupation of Vera Cruz, Mexico.  Notice the "coffee dyed" hats, and US Marine uniform items (?) sported by the these Bluejackets.

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/grizzly3674/LandingpartyUSSSouthCarolinaBB-26.jpg)

It was a great time to an American!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Grizzly Adams on January 24, 2012, 11:53:14 pm
Here's another (for the photographer) shot of USN Bluejackets at Vera Cruz, Mexico.  Notice these sailors are wearing the undress white uniform, but they have dyed the white uniform with coffee to effect a bit of camo.  This landing party is off of the USS Michigan.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/grizzly3674/LandingpartyVeraCruzMexico1914.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 25, 2012, 12:48:09 am
Interesting, I wasn't aware that the Queen's forces had ever issued a painted haversack!  I had been under the impression that they were all "natural" or white in colour ......

The 3rd Battalion were a "Rifles" unit which, from the time of the Napoleonic Wars at least, were issued with black kit to go with their rifle green (or even black/near black) uniforms, rather than the white/off-white coloration of the equipments of the red-coated Regular Infantry..... it was one of the distinctions of being "elite" units.

Circa 1812 -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Rifles%20Regiments/RiflesEquipment1812_small.jpg)

Circa 1855 (left) and 1870 (right) -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Rifles%20Regiments/CdnMilitiaRifles_sm.jpg)

Circa 1880 -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Rifles%20Regiments/60thRifles_small.jpg)

Another distinction was the issue of "sword bayonets" to Riflemen rather than the usual triangular-bladed socket bayonets issued to Regular Infantry - noticeable in the above plates.  That distinction is perpetuated to this day in British Commonwealth Rifles units in the command "fix swords" ..... instead of the usual "fix bayonets" ..... even though such units are now issued with exactly the same rifle and bayonet as any other unit!

(Indeed, after the adoption by Britain of the Pattern 1853 Enfield Rifle Musket, "Rifles" units soon lost the distinction of being the only troops issued with rifles rather than smoothbore muskets ..... but that certainly didn't stop them from jealously guarding their various other distinctions!)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on January 25, 2012, 05:28:33 am
Good information as always, Jack!  Grizzly, your photos remind me that I'd love to see someone do a Navy impression.  We have lots of soldiers, some Marines, but no sailors, and they were ALWAYS included in landing parties!  It would be cool to see.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on January 25, 2012, 07:27:19 am
I'd love to see someone do a Navy impression. 

I agree. The US Army is VERY popular in the GAF and I would also like to see more representation from the Maritime Services!

Did River City John stop shooting as a post Civil War Tar Jack? He was great to watch engaging targets with his cartridge conversion Navy revolver and rolling block carbine!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Grizzly Adams on January 25, 2012, 09:26:20 am
I do both a ACW US Navy impression and a SAW impression.  Here's a shot of my Union Navy uniform.  I was shooting a Plainsman event at EOT, so the pistol rig is NOT correct for this impression. :-[

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/grizzly3674/CWFrontiersman.jpg)

The Civil War uniform items are available from only one or two sources.  Spanish American War or pre-WWI uniforms items are pretty much unobtainable, unless custom made.  Actual period uniforms are extremely rare and fragile.  While WWII and WWI uniforms appear, at first glance to be the same, they are very different, and are not appropriate for period impressions.

I had a local tailor make me a SAW uniform.  I wil try to get some pics of it up on another thread. :)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on January 25, 2012, 11:45:03 am
Here's a picture of a USN landing party from the USS South Carolina (BB26) during the 1914, occupation of Vera Cruz, Mexico.  Notice the "coffee dyed" hats, and US Marine uniform items (?) sported by the these Bluejackets.

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/grizzly3674/LandingpartyUSSSouthCarolinaBB-26.jpg)

It was a great time to an American!

Guy reclining on the right could pass for Jake Holman on the San Paublo
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on January 26, 2012, 05:36:44 am
Grizzly,
     That is really cool!  If you can, post some more pictures of your Navy impressions!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on January 26, 2012, 07:30:20 am
Guy reclining on the right could pass for Jake Holman on the San Paublo

 I see Vin Diesel up front on the left in this one. And isn't it always like that? The people change throughout history but the faces stay the same!

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/grizzly3674/LandingpartyVeraCruzMexico1914.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on January 26, 2012, 07:39:17 am
Great anti boarding device there Grizzly and you definitely have the hair for a Civil War Sailor! I see you have a Sharps there and is that a Navy pistol in your holster? Looks like if the holster was black it could pass for a modified Civil War flap holster.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 26, 2012, 01:03:49 pm
Here is an image I recently came across - Canadian soldiers armed with Ross rifles:

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Canadian%20military%20firearms/RossRifles.jpg)

The shot presumably fits into the Expansion Era timeframe, as the Ross rifle was Canada's primary-issue rifle from 1905 through 1916 (by which time it had proven that it was likely "the finest target/sporting rifle design ever to fail miserably in a battle rifle role".)

These appear to be the Mark II version - aka Model 1905 - in service from 1905.   The Mark III version - aka Model 1910 - was adopted in 1911 to supplant the earlier version.

Because of its service dates, am I correct that my Mark III Ross rifle could be used in Expansion Era matches?

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Ross%20Rifle/rightside01_lg.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Hangtown Frye on January 26, 2012, 01:36:22 pm
Jack;

I picked up a Ross a few months ago (sadly in "sporterized" shape), and I have to admit that they are a very slick action. The sights are pretty darned good, too.  I can see why they were well loved as target rifles, and even as sporting rifles.  But compared to the good old "Smellie", well, not so hot for Flanders Mud!  I suspect that for another Boer War the Ross would have held up well, and probably been compared as a "far better rifle" than the SMLE for long-range rifle fights.

Cheers!

Gordon
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 26, 2012, 02:18:54 pm
Hi Gordon:

My first Ross is a 'sporterized' Mark III - which will now serve as a 'parts source' for my full-military version should that need arise.  Unfortunately, such modification seems to have been the fate of the majority of Ross service rifles, so an uncut one is definitely at a premium!

Although definitely in Canadian service (buttstock marked to Lord Strathcona's Horse, as shown below) mine is so 'unaltered' that it has actually even escaped the 'bolt pinning' modification which was supposed to have been done on all Canadian service rifles to preclude the infamous possibility of re-assembling the bolt incorrectly so that it could blow out when the rifle was fired.  (Actually, it takes some real effort to get that wrong .....)

The top rifle in this first image is my unpinned full-military one -

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Ross%20Rifle/BOLT_UNPINNED_PINNED.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Ross%20Rifle/rightaction02.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Ross%20Rifle/buttmarks02.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Hangtown Frye on January 26, 2012, 03:44:48 pm
Cool rifle you have there, Jack! Strathcona's Horse no less!  Very well done!

I'll have to dig out my Ross to see if it's "pinned" or not. I am pretty sure that it's a Mk III however.

I remember one of my first conversations with a range-master who ended up teaching me a LOT about firearms in general and black powder in particular, back when I was a kid, told me a horror story about a fellow shooting a Ross with the bolt re-assembled improperly.  Needless to say it put me off of Ross's for a long time (only about 40 years or so...).  However, I'm pretty impressed now that I have one.  They have a very slick action, and WAY better sights that just about anything else I can think of from that era. 

In the old tale about the Germans going to war with a hunting rifle, the Americans with a target rifle and the Brit's with an actual military rifle, I'd have to say that it probably originally was the Canadians going off to war with a target rifle. The '03 may have good sights in some respects, but the Ross has it over the Springfield in spades in my late-20th/early-21st Century opinion!

Again, I really think that in a Boer War reprise the Ross would have done well.  Probably did quite well in tests out on the prairies, in fact (especially in .280 Ross!). But there it is, we're always arming and training for the last war, and the Brits just happened to get really, really lucky with the SMLE (there was of course a storm of criticism over it at the time of it's adoption). Sadly, it proved itself to be a far better battle rifle than either the Ross or the P14, which I expect was developed along similar lines of thought as the Ross. 

Thanks again for the photo's.  I need to drag the old girl to the range to try her against an SMLE or two, just to see what the differences are.  The Ross is definitely heavier though, that's for sure!

Cheers!

Gordon
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 26, 2012, 04:17:15 pm
...... The Ross is definitely heavier though .....
Actilly, I think you may want to double-check that impression - I was just reading that the Ross was a pound lighter than the SMLE .....

Edited to add: quick online check indicates the SMLE was 3.96 kg and the Ross 3.90 kg ..... which actually converts to about 1.3 pounds difference!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Grizzly Adams on January 26, 2012, 04:20:51 pm
Great anti boarding device there Grizzly and you definitely have the hair for a Civil War Sailor! I see you have a Sharps there and is that a Navy pistol in your holster? Looks like if the holster was black it could pass for a modified Civil War flap holster.

Yep, 1851 Navy.  The pistol rig is wrong however.  The correct pistol rig is called a "pistol frog" and is similar to a gun bucket, and leaves most of the barrel of the pistol exposed.  The 51 Navy was most often issued, and carried on the left side.  A belt with a hook  closure, holding a pistol cartridge box and a fuse box (for the big guns!) on the back was standard.  Blockade Runner actually sells the correct pistol rig for CW Navy - both Union and Confederate.  

The white and blue uniforms were often mixed (as in the pic, and matched depending on the location, and the commanding officer, who was to keep in mind the "comfort of the crew."  While the CSN "officially" adopted a gray and white uniform, many CSN sailors continued to wear the tradition white or blue, or combination thereof.  In both navies, sailors were often simply issued the cloth for making their own uniforms.  It was not until after the War that more standardization occurred.  

An interesting discovery was made when the CSS Hunley was recovered.  Among the items recovered inside the sub were USN uniform buttons, indicating the at least one of the crew was wearing his USN uniform! ;)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 26, 2012, 04:33:13 pm
That renowned swashbuckler, River City John, uses the naval 'pistol frog'.  I believe that is what he has on in this shot, although somewhat obscured by his haversack - but the "Captain Morgan" pose is priceless ......  ;D

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/GAF/2008%20Muster/Roger13.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on January 26, 2012, 04:57:36 pm
And yes Jack, a MKIII Ross is allowed in any EEM sidematch.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Hangtown Frye on January 26, 2012, 05:05:55 pm
Actilly, I think you may want to double-check that impression - I was just reading that the Ross was a pound lighter than the SMLE .....

Edited to add: quick online check indicates the SMLE was 3.96 kg and the Ross 3.90 kg ..... which actually converts to about 1.3 pounds difference!

I'll be darned.  The sporterized Ross definitely "seems" heavier than my sporterized SMLE of the same approximate dimensions.  Perhaps the Ross is just more concentrated in where it's weight lies or something.  Interesting, thanks for the update!

Cheers!

Gordon
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on January 26, 2012, 05:42:57 pm
Because of its service dates, am I correct that my Mark III Ross rifle could be used in Expansion Era matches?




(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Ross%20Rifle/rightside01_lg.jpg)

Outstanding idea Sir! Leave it to Ralttlesnake Jack to show up with historic and exciting weapons!

Hangtown, I had an experience with a Mk III Ross, but only shot it after having watched the owner shoot it! It was about 20 years ago and after the owner offered for me to try it, I decided to bench it for accuracy- but all the owner had was some very old British cordite! I sat at the bench with it and proceed to get 3 hang fires out of 5 shots-and they all went into less than 2" on paper at 100 yards! I later found that they were renowned for their accuracy-go figure!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Hangtown Frye on January 26, 2012, 05:49:26 pm
Outstanding idea Sir! Leave it to Ralttlesnake Jack to show up with historic and exciting weapons!

Hangtown, I had an experience with a Mk III Ross, but only shot it after having watched the owner shoot it! It was about 20 years ago and after the owner offered for me to try it, I decided to bench it for accuracy- but all the owner had was some very old British cordite! I sat at the bench with it and proceed to get 3 hang fires out of 5 shots-and they all went into less than 2" on paper at 100 yards! I later found that they were renowned for their accuracy-go figure!


Smart man!   ;D

Cheers!

Gordon
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on January 26, 2012, 05:55:33 pm
Yep, 1851 Navy.  The pistol rig is wrong however.  The correct pistol rig is called a "pistol frog" and is similar to a gun bucket, and leaves most of the barrel of the pistol exposed.  The 51 Navy was most often issued, and carried on the left side.  A belt with a hook  closure, holding a pistol cartridge box and a fuse box (for the big guns!) on the back was standard.  Blockade Runner actually sells the correct pistol rig for CW Navy - both Union and Confederate. 

The white and blue uniforms were often mixed (as in the pic, and matched depending on the location, and the commanding officer, who was to keep in mind the "comfort of the crew."  While the CSN "officially" adopted a gray and white uniform, many CSN sailors continued to wear the tradition white or blue, or combination thereof.  In both navies, sailors were often simply issued the cloth for making their own uniforms.  It was not until after the War that more standardization occurred. 

An interesting discovery was made when the CSS Hunley was recovered.  Among the items recovered inside the sub were USN uniform buttons, indicating the at least one of the crew was wearing his USN uniform! ;)

Outstanding info Grizzly-thanks!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on January 26, 2012, 05:59:34 pm
That renowned swashbuckler, River City John, uses the naval 'pistol frog'.  I believe that is what he has on in this shot, although somewhat obscured by his haversack - but the "Captain Morgan" pose is priceless ......  ;D

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/GAF/2008%20Muster/Roger13.jpg)




That's my recruiter!! ;D





Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on January 26, 2012, 06:12:57 pm
S & S Firearms has some of the Navy equipment (pistol frog, pouch, etc.), but I don't know what the quality is like.  It looks good in the pictures!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: River City John on January 26, 2012, 06:15:13 pm
Frog, Navy belt and 2-part buckle, pistol ammo box with "USN" stamped. Navy buttons on the vest, grog stains on the pants, crusted seasalt on the underclothes from washing in the briny.

RCJ
Title: Enfields!
Post by: FTrooper on January 26, 2012, 06:17:44 pm
BTW...I saw this by accident the other day, but there are alot of No.1 Mk1 Enfields coming out of Pakistan.  Of course they seem to be no better than all those Martini's that came out of Nepal.  However, it could be a good start to a rebuild project if you REALLY need to kill some Boers or something.

http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?IncludeSellers=869253

TG International Inc.

Chris Fischer
F-Troop
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Grizzly Adams on January 26, 2012, 06:38:19 pm
Frog, Navy belt and 2-part buckle, pistol ammo box with "USN" stamped. Navy buttons on the vest, grog stains on the pants, crusted seasalt on the underclothes from washing in the briny.

RCJ

Too much information!   ;D
Title: Re: Enfields!
Post by: Niederlander on January 26, 2012, 07:05:01 pm
BTW...I saw this by accident the other day, but there are alot of No.1 Mk1 Enfields coming out of Pakistan.  Of course they seem to be no better than all those Martini's that came out of Nepal.  However, it could be a good start to a rebuild project if you REALLY need to kill some Boers or something.

http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?IncludeSellers=869253

TG International Inc.

Chris Fischer
F-Troop
You do have to be careful of a lot of those, or so I'm told.  Evidently, many of the ones you see imported are "Khyber Pass" productions.  The same is evidently true for many of the Martinis.  (NOT the ones from Nepal.)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: FTrooper on January 26, 2012, 07:13:48 pm
Yeah, I view them more as a restoration piece for re-enacting with blanks.  Even barreled the fragility of the bolt is still in question.

Chris Fischer
F-Troop
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 26, 2012, 09:26:10 pm
Too much information!   ;D
At any rate, I was greatly relieved, as I read on, to learn just what was encrusting his underclothes!    ::)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on January 26, 2012, 11:19:11 pm
Pinned vs non Pinned - was the pin to help keep the bolt from flying open at inopertune times.  Back around 67 or 68 I bought a gun digest that had a pretty long discussion of the Ross Rifles, wish I still had it.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on January 27, 2012, 10:45:36 am
................grog stains on the pants, crusted seasalt on the underclothes from washing in the briny.

RCJ

Too much information!   ;D


Oh come on Griz! That was pretty "G" Rated as far as Sailor entertainment goes-What fun these gents are at a get-together!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 27, 2012, 12:48:31 pm
Pinned vs non Pinned - was the pin to help keep the bolt from flying open at inopertune times.  Back around 67 or 68 I bought a gun digest that had a pretty long discussion of the Ross Rifles, wish I still had it.

The infamous - although in fact extremely rare - "blow back" problem was only possible with a Mark III - aka Model 1910 - action, but could occur if the bolt assembly was reinserted into the receiver (after cleaning, for example) with the bolt-head improperly positioned - so that it then would not rotate to engage the locking lugs when fully closed.

However, to quote one of my references on the Ross rifle:
 
".... improperly positioning a bolt in a 1910 action isn't the easiest thing in the world to do.  Actually, incorrectly assembled bolts-in-sleeves slide with difficulty - very often with great difficulty, if at all -into their receivers.  This, in itself,is enough to warn any discerning rifleman that all is not well."

Quoting from the same reference in answer to your question: 

"In 1915, Canadian armorers in England worked out a system of foolproofing the Mark III bolt assembly against incorrect positioning.  This simple alteration, carried out on all Canadian-issue Mark III's, consisted of putting a rivet through the sleeve which followed a recess cut by filing down three threads of one of the bolt spirals." 
[This refers to the spirals in the bolt body, covered by the sleeve, which produce the rotational motion when the straight-pull action is worked.]

Finally, even with an "unpinned" Mark III Ross, there is a very simple visual test for ensuring that the bolt-head is properly positioned - the locking lugs will be positioned about 1" (i.e. approximately a thumb's width) out from the bolt sleeve:

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Ross%20Rifle/Rossbolt_Correct_sm.jpg)  (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Ross%20Rifle/Rossbolt_Incorrect_sm.jpg)

With the locking lugs of the bolt-head properly engaged, the Ross is actually a very strong action - withstanding pressures approaching 150,000 psi!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on January 27, 2012, 02:27:55 pm
Thanks so much for the explanation of how the Ross could be fired unlocked Rattlesnake as it was always a mystery to me.

What kind of surplus .303 ammunition have you seen available in Canada?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Hangtown Frye on January 27, 2012, 03:29:26 pm
With the locking lugs of the bolt-head properly engaged, the Ross is actually a very strong action - withstanding pressures approaching 150,000 psi!

WHOA!  THAT is a STRONG ACTION!  Wow!  How cool is that?

Thanks for the info, Jack!

Cheers!

Gordon
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on January 27, 2012, 05:15:37 pm
WHOA!  THAT is a STRONG ACTION!  Wow!  How cool is that?

Thanks for the info, Jack!

Cheers!

Gordon

I think this is a time to mention this, I hope everyone knows this, but you never know who might be googling about a Ross Rifle and read this and get the wrong idea.

Despite the action having been tested at that pressure, the brass cartridge itself will not handle that type of pressure, it will let go long before that.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 27, 2012, 07:07:48 pm
What kind of surplus .303 ammunition have you seen available in Canada?

Charles:

Very spotty supplies these days, I'm afraid.  Nobody "stocks" it anymore, because the supplies have pretty much dried up, but small batches turn up from time to time.  Until a few years ago, surplus Greek-produced mil-spec lots could be found (considered some of the best ever) but very rarely seen now.  Occasionally one sees "POF" (Pakistan Ordnance Factory) lots being offered but it is best to avoid the stuff as it has a reputation for being very iffy in quality, with fair proportions of delayed fire (and non-fire) cartridges - presumably due to poor storage conditions. 

I generally use .303 cartridges currently produced in "the former Yugoslavia" (almost invariably jacketed softpoint hunting-type bullets) or else load my own ....
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on January 27, 2012, 07:54:02 pm
Thanks for the update and explanation.  150,000 PSI impressive but if you look at the bolt, what you have is an interrupted thread breach.  Just like on artillery pieces and the huge naval rifles on battleships.  If you are sending 2500lb projos about 25 miles down range the breach has to be strong.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 28, 2012, 10:09:43 am
I should perhaps clarify that the proof pressure for Ross rifles was "28 tons" per square inch (being the "long ton" of 2200 lbs. used in British firearms terminology) - i.e. about 62,000 psi.  The same reference indicates that is about 7,000 psi more than the proof pressure for most modern magnum sporting rifles.  (I haven't checked that.)

150,000 psi was the range reached in "action destruction tests" .....

Capt. Dan: your comment about the interrupted thread locking system being essentially the same as was used in artillery pieces and naval ordnance is interesting - period advertising literature for commercial/sporting Ross rifles mentioned that!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on January 28, 2012, 10:23:33 am
The well known Weatherby Mark V action uses the same interupted thread as well as several other modern sporting rifles.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on August 10, 2012, 05:41:58 pm
A great thread never dies, here's Marines with a new toy!

http://trapdoorcollector.com/PotatoDigger.html
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Delmonico on October 02, 2012, 09:33:13 am
A great thread never dies

Nope.

10th US Cavalry out of Fort Robinson, waiting for President Roosevelt's train in 1903 at Crawford Nebraska.

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww42/1880historian/military/1s02092v.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: sail32 on October 02, 2012, 10:41:42 am
.303 British is available from TradeEx Canada, Marstar, and Lever Arms.
The commercial ammunition is by Seller & Bellot, Prvi Partizan, and Federal.
Various bullet weights are also available.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: River City John on October 02, 2012, 09:13:27 pm
Here's a picture of a USN landing party from the USS South Carolina (BB26) during the 1914, occupation of Vera Cruz, Mexico.  Notice the "coffee dyed" hats, and US Marine uniform items (?) sported by the these Bluejackets.

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/grizzly3674/LandingpartyUSSSouthCarolinaBB-26.jpg)

It was a great time to an American!


Swabbie lying on deck front right . . .  now why am I reminded of "The Sand Pebbles"? ;)
(I think this was alluded to in an earlier post.)

RCJ
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Pitspitr on October 17, 2013, 12:55:41 pm
And yes Jack, a MKIII Ross is allowed in any EEM sidematch.
Even so the question remains, "Why would anybody want to use a rifle that is only slightly better than a broom?"  ;D

I ran onto this thread a while back and found it interesting and thought it should be brought back to life.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Stu Kettle on October 17, 2013, 01:48:20 pm
I ran onto this thread a while back and found it interesting and thought it should be brought back to life.

Glad you did.

Swabbie lying on deck front right . . .  now why am I reminded of "The Sand Pebbles"? ;)
(I think this was alluded to in an earlier post.)

RCJ
Because he looks so much like Steve McQueen maybe?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on April 15, 2014, 08:00:13 pm
Found some real gems today with which to resurrect this thread .... the captions on the original images (possibly magic lantern slides) indicate that this is a party from U.S.S. Boston doing land and riot drills at the Brooklyn Navy Yard.  I understand that the rifles are the Model 1879 Remington-Lee ....

First up: thumbnail links to the original images as posted in my PhotoBucket albums.  Don't forget to exercise all options offered to get a larger version (usually a little "magnifying glass" icon at bottom right) until you get to the full-size images (each about 2000 pixels wide) to see some great detail ....

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/th_USNlandingpartywithM1879Remington-Leerifles_02_zps91f2f770.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/GrantRCanada/media/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/USNlandingpartywithM1879Remington-Leerifles_02_zps91f2f770.jpg.html)  (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/th_USNlandingpartywithM1879Remington-Leerifles_03_zpse3a0dd46.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/GrantRCanada/media/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/USNlandingpartywithM1879Remington-Leerifles_03_zpse3a0dd46.jpg.html)  (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/th_USNlandingpartywithM1879Remington-Leerifles_01_zps831ba645.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/GrantRCanada/media/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/USNlandingpartywithM1879Remington-Leerifles_01_zps831ba645.jpg.html)

Some details cropped from the above images -

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/268fdb06-e163-4c5e-ba1b-ba1b4dbf8b3a_zps8eea9ec3.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/b5004377-f418-4c83-8d3c-68b36ab00503_zps5e2f2ff3.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/5eada3fe-b05e-42b8-a1f0-c7f3bfb04591_zpsf2439b80.jpg)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on April 16, 2014, 07:15:02 am
Great find, Grant!  Having had some experience with riot control training, I'll bet those perfect formations didn't maintain that level of precision once they made contact with the "enemy"!  Great pictures!  (I keep hoping someone in our group will portray a sailor from that period.)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on April 16, 2014, 06:51:28 pm
Marines always want a sailor or two around.  Its a calming influence.  Also so someone can tell them where the stri . . ah, bars are, and how to get back to the ship . . .
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Niederlander on April 16, 2014, 09:13:03 pm
OF COURSE we always want a sailor or two around!  We refer to them as Corpsmen!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on April 16, 2014, 09:17:30 pm
OF COURSE we always want a sailor or two around!  We refer to them as Corpsmen!

I suspect that Royal Marines refer to sailors as "Honey" .... with the abolishment of both rum and the lash from Nelson's famous triumvirate of naval traditions, there's only one thing left ..... 

 ;D
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: pony express on April 16, 2014, 10:17:21 pm
  (I keep hoping someone in our group will portray a sailor from that period.)
That time period's too expensive for me. Can't afford a Remington Lee, or a Lee straight pull either. A genuine Navy Rolling Block would probably be a real strain. But I do have an '03, and there's the Expansion Era.........
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 03, 2014, 03:44:57 pm
German Marine around 1880 with an M1871 Mauser black powder single shot bolt action.

(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/kragbolo/GermanMarine-1.jpg?t=1258135942)

Hi all
I study Horology, the study of time and timepieces.
Can you help confirm how you can date this picture to around 1880?  I lookud up the M1871, and it seemed to be in service from 1872–1918 (Germany).
I am not looking for an exact date but 1880 +/- 2 or 3 years would be something great.
any help would be appreciated.

PS:  Great thread
adam
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 03, 2014, 03:49:10 pm
Now for those of you who might want to consider a somewhat more exotic GAF persona, here is a veritable potpourri

Japanese -

Infantryman -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/JapaneseInfantryman.jpg)





Similar question to my one above, can anyone help date the Japanese soldier?  Boxer Rebellion??

Thanks.
Adam
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Drydock on November 03, 2014, 04:53:08 pm
Grant posted the Japanese picture earlier in this thread.  Mighty proud of that watch I think!

The watchs are what date these photos. I believe that the wearing of what amounts to pocket watchs in wrist holders was something seem most often in the 1890s.  I believe both of these pictures have been attributed to the 1900 Boxer Rebellion/CHina Relief expedition.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 03, 2014, 04:57:22 pm
Adam:

I posted the image of the Japanese soldier, which so far as I am aware, and based on the uniform and rifle, would indeed date to about the turn of the 20th Century - say the Boxer Rebellion ....

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Boxer%20Rebellion_%20British%20Empire/JapaneseTroops_Boxerrebellion_zps11d7ea82.jpg)

... or perhaps as late as the Russo-Japanese War of 1904/05 ....

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Boxer%20Rebellion_%20British%20Empire/JapaneseTroops_RussoJapaneseWar_detail_zpsd2b70ffe.jpg)

I'll let Charles respond with whatever information he may have, but suspect that the dating of the photo of the German Marine is a guess at best.  The rifle is more likely to be a Model 1871/1884 Mauser (repeater) and, as I'm sure you are aware, Germany did not acquire wristwatches for its Navy (the first "issue" of such devices for military purposes) until about 1880 .... and even then, I understand they were intended primarily for use by officers ....
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 03, 2014, 04:59:43 pm
Hmmm .... for some reason, my post was "hung up" for about 10minutes or so ( ..... I presume delayed while the system "fetched" my images ....) and that Drydock has replied to much the same effect in the meantime ....
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 03, 2014, 05:02:38 pm
Grant posted the Japanese picture earlier in this thread.  Mighty proud of that watch I think!

The watchs are what date these photos. I believe that the wearing of what amounts to pocket watchs in wrist holders was something seem most often in the 1890s.  I believe both of these pictures have been attributed to the 1900 Boxer Rebellion/CHina Relief expedition.
Thanks Drydock
The Japanese picture look good for Boxer rebellion so 1898 to 1900.

But on the German picture, Charles Issac did state 1880 based on that rifle.

the earliest confirmed picture I can 100% confirm with a Wristlet is 1888, there are claims of 1880, but I do not confirm that yet.

Could the German picture be prior to 1888?, any additional thoughts please

Thanks your help
adam
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 03, 2014, 05:06:17 pm
Hmmm .... for some reason, my post was "hung up" for about 10minutes or so ( ..... I presume delayed while the system "fetched" my images ....) and that Drydock has replied to much the same effect in the meantime ....

Hi
Thanks
I made a response prior to seeing yours
The Japanese picture of Boxer Rebellion is perfect so 1898 to 1900.
BUT
The German one, I would love to pin down to prior to 1888 or after (see my other reply)

I appreciate everyone's comments, and will (based on Horology) post some good pictures and dating
Thanks again
adam
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 03, 2014, 05:14:24 pm
Adam:

Somewhere, I have an article which gives some specifics of the German navy acquisition of wrist-mounted Swiss-made watches - with date, specifics of the manufacturer, and quantity if I recall correctly - but I can't find it right now!  I'll keep looking.

In the meantime, in case you haven't seen it, I do have a fairly lengthy article (text file only) entitled "Military Timepieces: Watches Issued to British Armed Forces 1870-1970" by A. Taylerson, published in the  'Horological Journal' Sept./Oct. 1995 (British Horological Institute).  If you'd like that, PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you the file.  It is in "WordPerfect" format, but if you think you won't be able to open it in that format, I can first convert it to Word or other more "universal" format ....
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 03, 2014, 05:23:29 pm
Adam:

Somewhere, I have an article which gives some specifics of the German navy acquisition of wrist-mounted Swiss-made watches - with date, specifics of the manufacturer, and quantity if I recall correctly - but I can't find it right now!  I'll keep looking.

In the meantime, in case you haven't seen it, I do have a fairly lengthy article (text file only) entitled "Military Timepieces: Watches Issued to British Armed Forces 1870-1970" by A. Taylerson, published in the  'Horological Journal' Sept./Oct. 1995 (British Horological Institute).  If you'd like that, PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you the file.  It is in "WordPerfect" format, but if you think you won't be able to open it in that format, I can first convert it to Word or other more "universal" format ....
That would be great.
I know of the "claim" that Girard Perregaux sold 2000 watches to the German navy in 1880, but trust me its just a myth perpetuated by Girard Perregaux.
They do not even have a picture of one of these 2000 reported pieces, only an artist impression.
I am sure the first conventional wristwatch with fixed lugs was Omega in 1902.
My passion and research is the beginning of the wristwatch.
does not mean I know it all, not at all, but I am researching it every day.

My email address is
adam007@gmail.com
I would be most grateful if you can send me your article, if I use any parts, I always give full acknowledgement.

I am currently a guest curator at the National watch and clock Museum, columbia USA.

please send your article
sincerely
adam
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Ol Gabe on November 04, 2014, 09:17:46 am
R.J., Kind Sir,
Thank you for posting the pic above of the Japanese Military. I find it interesting that the two in the upper left are different in some respects, the one on the extreme upper left appears to be wearing a cover with a shiny wrap whilst the rest of the Troop does not. In addition the Trooper to his immediate right, the second from the top left, has what appears to be medals on his left chest with no apparent Officer distinction unless I missed it.
is it possible this is was a staged pic at a Military Academy since we see a younger person, a trainee perhaps, an and older person in uniform in the background down the hall? Any ideas?
Best regards and good researching!
'Ol Gabe
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 04, 2014, 01:48:22 pm
Adam:

Somewhere, I have an article which gives some specifics of the German navy acquisition of wrist-mounted Swiss-made watches - with date, specifics of the manufacturer, and quantity if I recall correctly - but I can't find it right now!  I'll keep looking.

In the meantime, in case you haven't seen it, I do have a fairly lengthy article (text file only) entitled "Military Timepieces: Watches Issued to British Armed Forces 1870-1970" by A. Taylerson, published in the  'Horological Journal' Sept./Oct. 1995 (British Horological Institute).  If you'd like that, PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you the file.  It is in "WordPerfect" format, but if you think you won't be able to open it in that format, I can first convert it to Word or other more "universal" format ....
Did you manage to mail that file?
Any update from Charles?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 04, 2014, 07:22:06 pm
I believe the picture of the German Marine was captioned as being from around 1880 per the original source, but I only saved the picture to my photobucket account, not the caption. I assume the picture is somewhat later than 1880 after reading subsequent posts.

To tell the truth, I didn't even notice the watch! ;D
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 04, 2014, 08:27:19 pm
I believe the picture of the German Marine was captioned as being from around 1880 per the original source, but I only saved the picture to my photobucket account, not the caption. I assume the picture is somewhat later than 1880 after reading subsequent posts.

To tell the truth, I didn't even notice the watch! ;D

Hi Charles
Thanks for posting back.
Can you or anyone give any thought on a date.
1885?  1890? 1900?
Based on gun and uniform.
Do you remember the scource?

Thanks everyones help.
I will post a few greats for you, ALL with wristwatches!

Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 04, 2014, 08:44:59 pm
Adam:

I composed an e-mail and tried to send it last night with the file attached, and a few other tidbits included, but had lost my internet connection, so it just got dumped into the "outbox" of my e-mail program.  I still had no internet connection this morning, so got on the phone with my cable/phone/internet Service Dept., at which time they determined remotely that my internet "hookup/modem/wi-fi/router thingy" had failed, and I was instructed to take the old one in to their business office here in town to get a replacement. Got that done this afternoon and finally got it hooked up, and am back on the internet as of this evening.  As soon as I saw your message here I went to my e-mail outbox and saw that the message (which I assumed would go out automatically once I was back online) was still sitting there.  Had to click the "send" button again before it would go out.  Anyway, you should have it by the time you see this forum reply.    ;D
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 04, 2014, 08:56:18 pm
My best guess on the German Marine would be the latter 1880's .... or early 1890's at the latest.  I base that on the fact that Germany adopted a new rifle (the "Commission" rifle) in 1888, and a further new Mauser design in 1898, so it seems unlikely to me that anyone but Reserves (and the like) would be still armed with an 1871 or 1871/84 rifle much beyond the time-frame suggested ....
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 04, 2014, 10:18:10 pm
My best guess on the German Marine would be the latter 1880's .... or early 1890's at the latest.  I base that on the fact that Germany adopted a new rifle (the "Commission" rifle) in 1888, and a further new Mauser design in 1898, so it seems unlikely to me that anyone but Reserves (and the like) would be still armed with an 1871 or 1871/84 rifle much beyond the time-frame suggested ....

Hi
First
Got your email - thanks, I will print and study to-morrow.
At quick glance I own all those pieces, I have a number of learther pocket watch convertors, I have the Mappin "campaign" watch and a 1906 "conventional" wristwatch.
I have over 100 original photographs from 1898 to 1940.
I will post some here.

Now if that picture is 1888, it is still amazingly early, and possible one of the earliest photos of any man wearing a watch on their wrist
Sincerely thanks all your info and help
A
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: pony express on November 04, 2014, 10:55:25 pm
RSJ, the  rifle in the picture appears to me to be an 1871 single shot, the stock doesn't look deep enough to be the tube magazine of the 1871/84. I'm not sure how long the German Navy retained the single shots, but they did have 71/84's during the Boxer Rebellion. Perhaps some ships were still equipped with single shots?
German colonial troops in Africa were still mostly armed with BP Mausers at the outbreak of WW1, with native troops mostly carrying the single shots.
Looking at the background in the picture, looks like a dugout of some kind, Maybe early in WW1, in the trenches?
But perhaps it's a staged photo, seeing he has a rifle, blanket roll, S-71 sword bayonet and a dagger, but no cartridge pouch.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 05, 2014, 06:32:06 am
RSJ, the  rifle in the picture appears to me to be an 1871 single shot, the stock doesn't look deep enough to be the tube magazine of the 1871/84. I'm not sure how long the German Navy retained the single shots, but they did have 71/84's during the Boxer Rebellion. Perhaps some ships were still equipped with single shots?
German colonial troops in Africa were still mostly armed with BP Mausers at the outbreak of WW1, with native troops mostly carrying the single shots.
Looking at the background in the picture, looks like a dugout of some kind, Maybe early in WW1, in the trenches?
But perhaps it's a staged photo, seeing he has a rifle, blanket roll, S-71 sword bayonet and a dagger, but no cartridge pouch.
Hi thanks your input.
From close looking, I do not believe this is a "stage" shot, its real OK.
WWI trench?  I don't think so.
If you were to date it based on the rifle what period i.e since the 71/84 was used by Boxer Rebellion, can we put this picture prior or after that?
Finally can we tell anything from the dagger or his cap?

Thanks again
Adam
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: pony express on November 05, 2014, 06:40:21 pm
I posted a question on the GermanSailor over on Axis History Forum, maybe I can get more info there.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 05, 2014, 07:06:17 pm
I posted a question on the GermanSailor over on Axis History Forum, maybe I can get more info there.
Thanks, I would appreciate that.
Its an important photo if we can narrow down to even +/- 5 years
Regards
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: sail32 on November 06, 2014, 10:44:25 am
I would think the German marine is holding a 1871 Mauser based on the long bayonet.

The Japanese are holding Murata rifles.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=japanese+murata+rifle+images&qpvt=japanese+murata+rifle+images&FORM=IGRE
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 06, 2014, 10:56:38 am
I would think the German marine is holding a 1871 Mauser based on the long bayonet.

The Japanese are holding Murata rifles.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=japanese+murata+rifle+images&qpvt=japanese+murata+rifle+images&FORM=IGRE

So can you help date them, especially the German one.
Even a range would help
Thanks, really appreciate all efforts.
A
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 06, 2014, 12:59:04 pm
Think "band springs" when trying to tell an M1871 from an M1871/84  ;)

Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 06, 2014, 01:03:13 pm
Think "band springs" when trying to tell an M1871 from an M1871/84  ;)



Any dating based on a 1871?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 06, 2014, 01:54:28 pm
The Japanese are holding Murata rifles.

Actually, wouldn't they be the Arisaka rifle, introduced in 1897?  My understanding is that the only magazine-fed versions of the Murata rifle had tube magazines.  Certainly the chap with the wristwatch has an Arisaka, as he is charging its box magazine from a stripper clip .....  Mind you, we were already pretty sure that this photo dated to about the Boxer Rebellion .....

Adam:

The problem with identifying the German rifle as a Model 1871, of course, is that it doesn't help much with the "near end" of the possible time range of the photograph, since "obsolete" weapons stayed in service (at least with "auxiliary" and "second line" forces, and the like) for long periods after more modern weapons had been introduced.  Although identified as a "marine", I have actually been wondering if this chap is perhaps a German sailor kitted out for shore duty, rather than a marine - e.g. that looks like a sailor's "jumper" he is wearing, not something a "soldier" would wear.  In other words, I would expect a "marine" to have a fairly up-to-date rifle, (and to be uniformed and kitted out more like a soldier) but the arms kept aboard ships to arm shore patrols of sailors were much more likely to be older patterns, as Pony Express has already suggested ..... Unfortunately, I don't know enough about German forces of the period unfortunately, which is why a more informed response may follow from the posting on the Axis History forum
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 06, 2014, 02:00:39 pm
Thanks, all most interesting.
I personally doubt 1800, but I would love to work out if pre 1900?
thanks to all
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 06, 2014, 02:02:30 pm
Any dating based on a 1871?



A date based on the rifle would be impossible Sir. A lot of points have already been brought up by Pony Express, Rattlesnake Jack and others.

IF the German Navy was anything like the US Navy was during that era, the German Marines/Sailors may only have had available whatever rifles, obsolete or not, that were on the ship they were on.

As an example, logistics for the US Marines that landed in China as part of the Relief Expedition must have been a living nightmare! They were armed with several different types and caliber of obsolete and modern rifles. As I remember, these included-

M1870 50-70 cal Remington "rolling blocks"

M1884 45-70 cal "trapdoor" Springfields and various bolt actions in this caliber too

M1895 6mm "straight pulls"

M1898 30-40 cal Krag Jorgensens

Understandably, Naval officers are generally more worried about the ship itself being upgraded etc. not the small arms in the arms locker. The Master at Arms may have given his recommendation that the ships crew be upgraded to, say, M1898 Mausers, but the Officers are much more educated  ........................... ..........................oh, nevermind   :D :D :D




Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 06, 2014, 02:05:35 pm
Thanks everyone
Personally I did not think 1880, but I would like to see if its prior to 1900.
Thanks for everyones input
a
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 06, 2014, 04:14:42 pm
I am now pretty much convinced that the purported German "marine" ("Seesoldat") in the above photo is in fact a sailor ("Matrose") on some sort of shore duty or land expedition ..... which, unfortunately, means that he would be more likely to be armed with a Model 1871 rifle a lot later than would a Seesoldat .....

I found this 1880's photograph of a German Navy sailor attached to the Naval Artillery.  (The full cap tally apparently read: KAISERL. MATR. ARTILLERIE", short for "Kaiserliche Matrosen Artillerie", which translates literally as "Imperial Sailors Artillery".)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/GermanNavysailorNavalArtillery1880s_zps02af0107.jpg)

Anyway, note the style of his cap, which is the same as worn by the chap with the wristlet watch.  There was also this comment about his shirt: "His shirt is the blue woolen winter naval top ('Wollenes Hemd' or woolen shirt) with removable naval collar in a lighter shade of blue with three white stripes ...." (Emphasis added by me, considering that the chap with the watch has no such collar, but his shirt certainly otherwise looks the part ....)

Marine Infantrymen (Seesoldaten), on the other hand, would have been more likely to have a "military-style uniform", with some sort of tunic, as worn by these chaps in China -

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/Seesoldaten_China_early1900s_zps4f57cef7.jpg)

- and I gather that their headgear was noticeably different .... either a peaked cap or an un-peaked field cap, such as worn by these Seesoldaten -

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/Seesoldatencaps_zpsf85b42c9.jpg)

I found these images on a very extensive website dealing with "German Colonial Uniforms" .... which has a great deal of information on both Seesoldaten and Matrosen, since they were also very often used in German colonies and foreign expeditions.   I gather from my cursory look that the general styles of uniforms for Marine Infantry and sailors didn't change all that much through the German Imperial period (i.e. about 1870 through 1918) which doesn't help much with fixing a date for the "mystery German watchwearer".  However, I barely scratched the surface there, so if anyone wants to give the site a more complete search, it is here:  http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk/ (http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 06, 2014, 05:47:53 pm


Here is another website calling the guy a Marine, or, "Kaiserliches Marinekorps",  I don't know. No Idea. But he sure does look like a crazy mf'r,  like you better be ready for things to get real wild really fast if you piss him off.

Someone else started this. Someone might be pullin a Colonel Pitsptr, like when he kept calling Colonel Drydock "a Marine"- Bunch of tricksters around here sometimes I tell ya! ;D


Ennyways, maybe this will have some dates and references.


http://www.bajonett.de/WK1-Galerie/Marineinfanterie-Schutztruppen/WK3.5-Soldat.htm




Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 06, 2014, 06:02:42 pm

EDIT: Oops!  Rattlesnake Jack already posted this site-



http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/germancolonialuniforms/militaria/mab.htm




(http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/germancolonialuniforms/militaria/mab/med/kaiserliches%20marinekorps%20cap.jpg)

Cover picture Captioned-

   "A naval soldier's other ranks cap with the tally reading "Kaiserliches Marinekorps".


(http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/germancolonialuniforms/militaria/mab/med/matrosen%20regt%20unfrom.jpg)

Shirt picture captioned-

"A naval top as worn by soldiers of the Marinekorps Flandern. Note the wound badge on the left breast."

Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: pony express on November 06, 2014, 09:39:03 pm
Rattlesnake Jack is correct then the person in the photo is a sailor doing shore duty, not technically a "Marine" as we think of them, the German Marines of the time were the Seebattalions.

The long S-71 Sword Bayonet was not issued only with the 1871 rifle, it could be used also with the 71/84, and the GEW88. The III Seebattalon during the Peking siege were equipped with GEW88s and S-71 bayonets.

German colonial uniforms is a great site, I was going to try messaging the owner about this pic, but had "technical difficulties" with the "contact us" portion of his site, so I posted on the forum he moderates on Axis History Forum.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 06, 2014, 09:46:19 pm
I gather that the "Kaiserliches Marinekorps" and the "Seebattalions" were two different entities or branches of service ..... but what the difference was exactly, I don't know .....  ::)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 07, 2014, 03:04:33 am
Yep, he's a Sailor  :D

Wiki has a good explanation-

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiserliche_Marine

"The Imperial German Navy was the Imperial Navy (German: Kaiserliche Marine) "

"The Marines were referred to as Seebataillone (sea battalions). "
.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 07, 2014, 06:40:23 am
To all
Thanks really impressive discussions and support.
Anyone care, based on that additional research to make a guess to a date?
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 07, 2014, 12:34:45 pm
I can report on some further sleuthing I've done relating to this German photo, but can offer little more, I fear, beyond the fact that i am beginning to think that it may well be as late as WWI .... but still can't pin it down more exactly ..... ???

It occurred to me to try to enlarge and enhance the chap's head to see if I could make out any writing on his cap tally ..... thinking that if i could make out the name of a ship, it might be possible to find out the dates that ship was in service ..... but that was a bust.

However, on that same German bayonet website, I did discover a photo of another chap, almost identically uniformed and equipped.  It seems almost certain that this second photo was taken at the same time and location as the other image - the background may even be the other end of the same dugout entrance  -

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/KaiserlicheMarinekorps_03_zpsd32b013f.jpg)

And there is some writing on this fellow's hat tally!

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/KaiserlichesMarinekorps_00_detail_zpsca5f117f.jpg)

However, it doesn't appear to be a ship's name, but is apparently a generic "unit title" - i.e. Kaiserliches Marinekorps .... similar to the title clearly legible on the cap tally in this studio portrait -

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Various%20Nationalities/KaiserlicheMarinekorps01_zps020560a2.jpg)

One reason I am beginning to think that these images may be of World War I vintage is that I am aware that most of the German Imperial fleet spent the war blockaded in its harbors by the Royal Navy, and a great many sailors were diverted to land service .... perhaps even in rear-echelon postings, or at least very quiet areas of the Front, in view of their relative lack of land warfare training, and possibly also due to the fact that they were armed with obsolete weapons .....

At any rate, with these two images in hand, perhaps you could ask for more exact details and dating of the photographs from the owner of the bayonet website (http://www.bajonett.de/ (http://www.bajonett.de/)) or on other sites, such as -
- http://users.skynet.be/fa972307/English/index.htm (http://users.skynet.be/fa972307/English/index.htm)
- http://www.sms-navy.com/ (http://www.sms-navy.com/)

This chap even has a Pinterest page (as yet rather small) entitled 'Kaiserliche Marines, Matrosen & Marinekorps" - https://www.pinterest.com/maxstiebritz1/kaiserliche-marines-matrosen-marinekorps/ (https://www.pinterest.com/maxstiebritz1/kaiserliche-marines-matrosen-marinekorps/)
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 07, 2014, 01:00:00 pm
Thanks, truly appreciate your efforts.
In the interests of proper history, I am dating (if I use the photo) to WWI.

If anyone can date it earlier - there a BIG thanks!

to-day I met Ludwig Oechlin thec inventor of the Ulysse Nardin "Freak Watch" and many other Ulesse Nardin patented fantastic complications.
This man know everything about wristwatches.  But he was MIGHTY amazed at my early photographs of soldiers/sailers/nurses from Boer war/WWI wearing a wristwatch
and the photo from 1888 of three officers wearing wristlets blew him away!!!
A

Adam
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: S. Quentin Quale, Esq. on November 07, 2014, 07:42:43 pm
I'm not enough of a botanist to ID plants so I can't place the location of the photo.  Germany, however, did have interests in places outside of Europe where one might have found "beached" sailors in numbers.  The German concessions on the Shantung Peninsula, China and German East Africa come to mind.  There were other possessions in West Africa, IIRC.  They even owned some Pacific islands (but that photo does not suggest to me an island).

During this time of empire building the use of naval landing forces was pretty common.  Marine detachments were usually small in all navies (even if the ships were rather large) and many smaller ships didn't carry marines at all.  I would bet that the "military" training and experience of sailors deployed on ships in colonial waters would have been more significant than their European comrades.

The photos are fascinating.  Thank you for posting them.

SQQ
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 07, 2014, 07:50:19 pm
OK, let me share some too.
This is very cool, because of the massive protected leather wristlet watch and I found the history of the soldier

(http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv75/GLADIATOR007/GLADIATOR007198/SignallerAlanSBigg11thReinforcement3rdRegimentLightHorseBrigadeEgypt_zps77a28e00.jpg) (http://s671.photobucket.com/user/GLADIATOR007/media/GLADIATOR007198/SignallerAlanSBigg11thReinforcement3rdRegimentLightHorseBrigadeEgypt_zps77a28e00.jpg.html)

Alan Bigg was born at Nairne, SA on 9 March 1895, the son of Richard and Harriet Louisa (nee Atkinson) who ran a general store in the town. Alan and his brothers attended Nairne Public School until 1905 when the family moved to a farm near Echunga, and they were schooled at the Hahndorf Academy. Alan served in the senior cadets and citizen forces and was apprenticed as an electrical engineer to Newton McLaren in Leigh Street, Adelaide from 1910 until he enlisted. While he was at Newton McLaren he lived in a boarding house in Norwood.

With his father's permission, on 16 June 1915 he enlisted under regimental number 1419 in the 11th reinforcements of the 3rd Light Horse Regiment. He arrived in Egypt in late November 1915, and received training as a signaller using semaphore, heliograph and telephone before joining A Squadron, 3rd Light Horse Regiment. He was kept very busy manning observation posts along the front with the Turks around Girga between February and April 1916. He returned to Zeitoun for more signals instruction in May 1916, then rejoined the regiment in mid June 1916 when they were operating near Romani.

After going on several fighting patrols in the area, he was with A Squadron during the Turkish attack on Mount Meredith in the early stages of the Battle of Romani on 4 August 1916. He was shot through the right foot during the fighting withdrawal of 1st Light Horse Brigade. The regimental doctor couldn't treat him due to the battle conditions, so he propped his foot on his horse's feedbag and rode back to the 2nd Light Horse Field Ambulance where they dressed his foot and evacuated him back to Cairo where two days later his foot was operated on. After examination, a medical board determined that he would be unfit for further service because of his wound. He left Egypt to return to Australia, and after a short stopover in Melbourne, returned to Adelaide on 2 October 1916. He was treated at 7th Australian General Hospital at Keswick Barracks for six months after his discharge in March 1917.

Before the war ended Alan, his brother Lloyd and their parents moved from Echunga to Adey Rd, Blackwood to finish building the house that Alan and Lloyd's brother Lyn had been building before he enlisted. Lyn died of wounds during the War. Alan worked for another engineering firm in 1918, then on ships of the Adelaide Steamship Company until 1922. He married Dorothea Alice Hewett on 20 October 1923 at the Blackwood Methodist Church, and they had two children, Margaret and Robert. He worked as a carpenter on the '1000 homes' project in Colonel Light Gardens in the 1920's, then turned to poultry farming in Ascot Park during the Depression. His wife passed away in 1975, and he remained at Ascot Park until shortly before he passed away in 1984 at the age of 89 and was cremated at Centennial Park. His name is inscribed on the Echunga War Memorial.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: Charles Isaac on November 09, 2014, 03:59:50 am
Fascinating biography Horologist007.

I never gave much thought to the evolution of military time pieces. I learn something new every time I come here!
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: pony express on November 09, 2014, 09:23:57 am
Thanks for the links RSJ, especially the one with the story of the Kaiserliches Marines. Seems they served on the same area throughout the war, although I suspect that the photos we are looking at were from early in the war, most likely later on they had more standardized weapons, and probably lost their sailor uniforms in favor of some sort of Feld grau and steel helmets, at least for field wear if not for dress.
Title: Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
Post by: HOROLOGIST007 on November 09, 2014, 09:29:30 am
Two weeks ago I gave a webinar on "The beginning of the wristwatch" - Its free and lots of cool photos of officers/soldiers wearing wristwatches from 1880 to 1920s.  You can view it for free here@
https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/recording/8035670043014726658

I give another on 16th November, it also has a lot of cool photos, you can register for free here:
https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/476895938385409025

Its free
You can read about them here:
http://watchnews.nawcc.org/

I think all will find them interesting
Regards
Adam
PS- Please tell your friends of Webinar 2 on Sunday 16th!
Adam