Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: Drydock on February 27, 2007, 01:16:24 PM
-
Final configuration, though I continue to welcome advice and suggestions. This is placed to provide information for those interested in using these weapons in a GAF format.
I would like to point out that this is NOT always a class in and of itself, but a set of standards for the use of these type weapons in a GAF match, outside of the usual Cowboy style classes. This may be broken up by action or powder type at the descretion of the Match director. Or it could be run as a single class if numbers so warrent.
-Milspec weapons of the late Victorian era, 1865-1901
-RIfles will be MAIN BATTLE RIFLES and CARBINES, utilizing CAS spec ammunition. Lead bullets of weight no more than 405 grains, velocity less than 1400 FPS. Calilbers greater than .501 may use up to a 480 grain bullet. Rifle calibers of .32 or less may use gas checks at the match directors discretion. (Call ahead!) Examples would be, but not limited to: Krags, Spencers, Trapdoors, Sniders, Enfields, early Mausers. Handguns would be milspec, or of demonstrated military use, related in period to the rifle used. The rifle is the determing factor here.
-NOTE- Handguns are related IN PERIOD to the rifle used. It is understood that some handgun/rifle combinations may be difficult to impossible to achieve. Reasonable substitutions are allowed. Officers of the period often purchased their own sidearms. (Notice I say "Handguns"? Thats right. Broomhandle fanatics be warned: NO stripper clips. You ain't outrunnin' anybody. For you DA revolver types, no loading aids of any type.)
-Rifles/carbines must be in a military configuration, military caliber. Example: the 1895 Winchester is allowed, if in military configuration, chambered in .30 US (.30-40 Krag) Lever action rifles with tubular underbarrel magazines are specificaly not allowed. There will be other classes for them.
(reasonable caliber subsitiution may be allowed on a case by case basis.)
-Dress must Attempt to be military, matching the weapon used. Don't show up dressed for the Rough Riders carrying a Mauser. Full or partial uniforms are fine, Scouts, field expediencey, and irregulars are recognized. (caveat: you want to be an irregular, you better have some provenance that shows you to be a fair representation.) Ladies may adhere to the above, or perhaps better to dress appropriate to the period, with some military "accessories". Perhaps a Kepi, corded Slouch, or officers sash. For ladies wishing to really go all out, I would suggest watching John Fords "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon".
-Era single shots, ie trapdoors, Martini Henrys, Rolling blocks, are encouraged, loaded to spec. Course of fire may be different from that of the repeaters at the match directors discretion.
-As a technical limitation, No stripper clips/loading aids allowed. All repeating weapons(rifles AND handguns) will start with no more than 5 rounds. Reloads have no limit. All reloads will be of loose ammo, from appropriate belts/pouchs/pockets, no aids of any kind. Loading aids may be used to charge the weapon prior to stage start, but none will be used in the stage itself.
-Modifications allowed: None. Springs may be replaced/lightened, existing parts polished to improve trigger pull, thats it. Parts may be replaced only to repair/return to Milspec.
-Don't come to me about the Turks using 1866s at Plevna. Know it, don't care, plenty other venues for those. This is for Main Battle rifles. Henrys and 66s were the submachine guns of their era.
EXAMPLES OF ACCEPTABLE RIFLES.
Not final, research ongoing. South American variations on the Comblain are endless! Where not mentioned, it is expected that these will be in military configuration. Please submit weapon suggestions by PM for evaluation. If it was accepted for military service prior to 1902 I'd like to know about it. Weapons must use a self contained cartridge with integral primer. IE no muzzleloaders, or breechloaders requiring a seperate percussion cap.
Milspec replicas, such as the various Trapdoor Springfield replicas from H&R and Pedersoli, are recognized.
CARCANO 1891
COMBLAIN-VARIOUS FROM 1870
ENFIELD .303 MAGAZINE LEE-ENFIELD
ENFIELD .303 MAGAZINE LEE-METFORD MARK 1
ENFIELD .303 MAGAZINE LEE-METFORD MARK 1*
ENFIELD .303 MAGAZINE LEE-METFORD MARK 2
ENFIELD .303 MAGAZINE LEE-METFORD MARK 2*
ENFIELD .450 MARTINI-HENRY
ENFIELD .577 SNIDER-ENFIELD RIFLE/CARBINE
FRENCH MILITARY MODEL 1886 LEBEL
FRENCH "BERTHIER" CARBINE, early 3 round magazine models.
FRENCH "CHASSPOTT"
GRAS MODEL 1874 INFANTRY RIFLE AND CARBINE
SWISS VETTERLI M1867-71 M1878, M1881
ITALIAN VETTERLI M1870, M1870/78
DREYSE "NEEDLE GUN"
MAUSER MODEL 1871 SHORT RIFLE
MAUSER 71
MAUSER 78/80
MAUSER 84
MAUSER 85
MAUSER 86
MAUSER 87
MAUSER 88
MAUSER 89
MAUSER 90
MAUSER 91
MAUSER 92
MAUSER 93
MAUSER 94
MAUSER 95
MAUSER 96
MANNLICHER M1888
STEYR M1895
MOISEN-NAGANT M1891
RUSSIAN BERDAN SINGLE SHOT 1ST AND 2ND MODEL.
PEABODY 1871
REMINGTON U.S. NAVY M1867 ROLLING BLOCK CARBINE
REMINGTON REMINGTON KEENE MAGAZINE BOLT RIFLE
REMINGTON REMINGTON LEE MAGAZINE BOLT RIFLE
REMINGTON U.S. NAVY "ANNAPOLIS CADET" MILITARY RIFLE
REMINGTON U.S. ARMY MODEL 1870 "EXPERIMENTAL" CARBINE
REMINGTON U.S. ARMY MODEL 1870 "EXPERIMENTAL" MILITARY RIFLE
REMINGTON U.S. NAVY MODEL 1870 (TYPES 1 & 2) MILITARY RIFLE
REMINGTON U.S. ARMY MODEL 1871 MILITARY RIFLE
REMINGTON ANY ROLLING BLOCK IN MILSPEC CONFIGURATION
SCHMIDT-RUBIN M1889, M1896, M1897, M1900
SHARPS .50/70 CARBINES
SHARPS .50/70 RIFLES
SHARPS SPRINGFIELD/SHARPS MODEL 1870-1871
SHARPS MODEL 1874
SHARPS MODEL 1878 SHARPS-BORCHARDT
SNIDER Various INFANTRY RIFLE/CARBINE
SPENCER MODEL 1860 ARMY RIFLES
SPENCER MODEL 1860 CARBINES
SPENCER MODEL 1860 NAVY RIFLES
SPENCER MODEL 1865 ARMY RIFLES
SPENCER MODEL 1865 CARBINES
SPENCER MODEL 1867 ARMY RIFLES AND CARBINES
SPENCER NEW MODEL ARMY RIFLES AND CARBINES
SPENCER SMALL-FRAME MILITARY CARBINES
SPENCER SPRINGFIELD ARMORY RIFLE MUSKET CONVERSION OF SPENCER CARBINES
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1870 ROLLING-BLOCK RIFLE, U.S.N.
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1871 ROLLING-BLOCK RIFLE, U.S.A.
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODELS 1866, 1868 RIFLES
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1870 RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1873 CADET RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1873 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1873 RIFLE "TRAPDOOR"
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1875 OFFICER?S RIFLE FIRST TYPE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1877 CADET RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1877 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1877 RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1879 CADET RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1879 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1879 RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1880
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1884 RIFLE "TRAPDOOR"
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY MODEL 1888 RIFLE "TRAPDOOR"
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG) ARSENAL-ALTERED TO M1896 STYLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG) M1892-DATED 1894
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG) M1895 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG) M1896
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG) M1896 CADET RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG) M1896 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG) M1898 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG) M1898 NRA CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG) M1898 RIFLE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG) M1899 CARBINE
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (KRAG) M1899 PHILIPPINE CONSTABULARY CARBINE
DANISH KRAG M1889
NORWIEGIAN KRAG M1894, 95, 97
WINCHESTER HOTCHKISS RIFLE
WINCHESTER MODEL 1895 NRA MUSKET
WINCHESTER MODEL 1895 RUSSIAN MUSKET
WINCHESTER MODEL 1895 CARBINE
WINCHESTER MODEL 1895 FLATSIDE MUSKET
WINCHESTER MODEL 1895 MUSKET
WINCHESTER MODEL 1883 (HOTCHKISS REPEATER)
WINCHESTER MODEL 1895 LEE STRAIGHT PULL RIFLE
The above lists most of the major issue small arms of the period. For those of you determined to field the rare and exotic, you can find just about everything here: http://www.militaryrifles.com/MAINIndx.htm Please remember that lever action rifles with tubular underbarrel magazines are NOT allowed in this concept. There are other venues for those. IE once again, I know the Turks used 1866s at Plevna, don't care, not allowed.
Why no Mauser 98? True statement "The Mauser 98 is the definitive bolt action of the 20th century." Nuff said.
The Lee Enfield is NOT the SMLE, but the first, longer version. The SMLE was developed in response to the Boer war, and fielded after 1903.
-
Howdy Sgt. Drydock,
May rim fire rifles be converted to center fire?
-
Yes.
-
Sgt Drydock,
That looks like a outstanding job to put all of those together. Excellent.
Old Top
-
BTT. FYI, and perhaps this could be stickied?
-
I think this is a great idea. Of course here in VA I might have a hard time finding somewhere that will let me try it! I bought a Martini Henry a few years ago before I though about cowboy and now have a hankering to put together a Boer outfit around it! You read about Boers using Mausers but an awful lot used "liberated" MHs. I need to get my Quartermaster uniform and kit finished first but hopefully by the time this starts being accepted I will be able to put together my "Boer commando" kit.
-
BTT
-
You've put a lot of thought into this, Sgt. Drydock. Well done.
I'm not sure if you have been to the Ackley range, but some of the stages at the left of the line do not have a lot of depth. Even though your organization allows for all kinds of diverse battle rifles, the target placement on at least a portion of the stages will treat them all as if they're the typical Cowboy rifle shooting at middle ranges.
I must confess, too, that one of my stages calls for shooting the rifle from the hip occaisionally. I hope that it does not create problems with some battle rifle users. Oh well.
RCJ
-
Been there twice, shot all their targets with a properly loaded Krag. (Note that Battle rifle rounds have the same limitations as regular CAS rifles, IE all lead, no more than 1400 fps.) Not a problem. However be aware that Hip shooting can be a problem for any rifle, in that any round that goes over the backstop is a match Disqualification. For this reason Hip shooting has kind of fallen from favor in most combat style matchs.
-
Then I will be doubly careful about the rifle target placement on that stage. But the 'fun-factor' in an occasional hipshot was a treat I couldn't ignore. ;D
RCJ
-
I am personally going to leave the Battle Rifle Catagory alone because I don't feel my Krag is up to it. HOWEVER ;) I will be getting myself an EMF Springfield Trap Door Carbine to go with my USFA Government Inspector's Model Revolver for future GAF Matches. I am looking forward to having some serious fun with that.
-
Major, as I will hopefully be there if my current schedule holds, I would be happy to lend you my Trapdoor carbine, should you have the ammunition ready for it.
Your Krag problems may be due to the OAL of your rounds, most Krags will not feed light (150-165 grain) bullets because of this. Your OAL needs to be at least 2.9" to get reliable feeding.
I use the Lee C309-200-R mold, sized and gas checked thru a Lee .311 sizer, lubed with Lee Liquid Alox. Seated and crimped in the provided crimp groove it has an OAL of 2.975, and feeds slick thru my 1898.
-
Major,
I have been loading the RCBS 30-180-SP in the Krag, seated to an overall length of 3.100" and it feeds OK in my M'1899 Carbine.
RCBS calls this bullet a Semi-Pointed, gas checked bullet. It is spitzer shaped with a small flat point and casts at about 182 grains from my mould using Lyman No. 2 alloy. I size it to 0.309" diameter. The RCBS mould is a two cavity mould so casting goes at a pretty good rate.
Seated to this length there is one grease groove exposed so I just leave this groove unlubed so as to not pick up any unnecessary dirt. I suppose that you could shoot it without the gas check if you wanted but I find that with older, not so perfect bores that I usually get better accuracy with gas checked bullets.
Hope that this helps in your quest for a good cast bullet Krag load.
HHW
-
Yeah,
There is also the problem of being a cronicle low shooter even with factory hunting rounds. I had to put the rifle on 600 yard windage for a 50 yard target.
-
THe sights are set for a 220 grain bullet at 2000 FPS. Current factory rounds are 180 grain at 2450 fps. Raising bullet weight and lowering velocity will raise point of impact. Are your sights stamped "R", "C", or perhaps unstamped?
-
I got a REAL good deal on a rifle with no front sites. So I bought a new front site from S&S up in New York and had it mounted.
-
Anyone have an idea what a Swedish Mountain uniform looks like?
Dusty
-
So what kinda rear sight are you using Major?
-
Anyone have an idea what a Swedish Mountain uniform looks like?
Dusty
Dusty, when in doubt, search www.military-historians.org and their plate list of uniforms.
Whoops, only forces that served in the Americas are depicted. Only Swedish unit mentioned is too early for our period. Sorry about that.
-
Dusty,
You might check the list of books by Osprey. They have a web site I think, sorry no link. They have books on uniform and armies from ancient Egypt to current.
-
So what kinda rear sight are you using Major?
Stock with the rifle. It was just a Front site.
-
Yes, I understand that. Is it a carbine sight, a rifle sight, an unmarked sight, (All barrel mounted) or a reciever sight? Is this an original carbine, or a cut down rifle?
-
It's a cut down rifle. The rear sight is mounted on the barrel and looks original.
-
On the base ramp, and sometimes on the sight elevator there will be a stamped "R" or "C". Sometimes there is no stamp, indicating a rifle sight. Is there a stamp, and what is it? Also, is this a ramp type sight, or a ladder type? Sights and their designations can be found at the S&S catalog site.
-
Ramp with a "Y" on it.
-
Sounds like an unmodified rifle sight, perhaps civilian, perhaps from an 03 Springfield. You are going to need to replace it, I would suggest the M1902 Krag sight with target aperture www.ssfirearms.com pages 24-25, Item #K544C.
-
Thanks
-
Alright, I'm in trouble now. . .
I finally bought one of those Baby Rolling Block Carbines in .45LC
As I mentioned in another post, it is the closest I could find to the Navy 1867 Rolling Block Carbine.
My question is, though, the originals were in .50-45 and had 23" barrels with no saddle bar/ring on the left side receiver. I plan to add slings per the original.( Did find documentation that one Remington carbine from the U.S.S. Colorado's compliment of 150 suffered a burst barrel during the Korean conflict in 1871 which shortened the barrel by 3"! Ship's Armorer did a good job of recrowning that muzzle for me. . . ;))
So, if I decided to use it as a battle rifle entry, could I get special dispensation for non-milspec chambering?
RCJ
-
I'd allow it this year. THis is on a case by case basis.
Wonder if you could bore and rechamber that to Spencer .56/50. The modern centerfire 56/50 is a 50 caliber bullet over 40-45 grains powder, Seems about right.
I'm curious, as I believe there are importers offering Rolling block Carbines in .50-70, far closer to the 1867 than the .45 baby carbine you have found.
-
I'm unaware of any importer offering a rolling block carbine other than that Pedersoli. Post info if you would, please.
The Pedersoli Baby carbine does not have a saddle ring bar, so no holes to plug, and within my budget and skill I should be able to install a butt swivel and a barrel band swivel.
Plus there really was a documented example of one from the U.S.S. Colorado that had damage to 3" at the end of the barrel. . .et voila'. .the 20" barrel length of the Baby RB is perfect!
My main consideration in choosing the straight-walled .45LC is that it will make it easy to reload for, plus it won't scare the beejeebers out of a Match Director that it is going to destroy steel targets when I want to use it at some other shoot.
Quite frankly I couldn't afford to have one custom re-created for me. I have no doubt that it could be done, but it would probably double the price at a minimum. Going this route will be close enough for me. Plus it will go great with the Navy Remington cap'n'ball as the historically correct sidearm.
Oh well, thank you for allowing it this year. It will let me try out the Battle rifle concept.
(I suppose I will jump ship and join the Scouts next year and trot out the trusty '66 Improved Henry and the Open Top. ;))
RCJ
-
I should be somewhat clearer here. While exemptions for weapons such as yours are to be made on a case by case basis, for the forseeable future I cannot see you not being able to use your Rolling block in the future should this class structure become accepted as the GAF Standard.
Howsumever, It must be said, that should numbers become such that the class should need to be restricted, the non milspec calibers in non milspec frame sizes would be the first to go.
This probably would not happen in my lifetime, but it needs to be known at the outset.
-
Hopefully not to be tiresome ... now I am wondering if I might be able to use my "Faux North West Mounted Police/Canadian Militia Winchester 76 rifle" (chambered in .45 Colt) in the Battle Rifle category ... ? What say?
I have previously posted images of this carbine, which I had made up for me, but here is another pic (click on thumbnail to enlarge ...)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/th_fauxnwmp.jpg) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/fauxnwmp.jpg)
The .45-75 originals were the standard-issue longarm of Canada's quasi-military North West Mounted Police from 1878 to 1914, and the same model was acquired by the Canadian Department of Militia & Defence for issue to mounted units (particularly during the 1885 North West Rebellion.)
I should also note that, by rights, I will "soon" have a new reproduction of the original .45-75 carbine ...
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/th_Chapparal01.jpg) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Chapparal01.jpg)
.... follow this link for details: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,15915.0.html (http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,15915.0.html)
Unfortunately, as mentioned in that other post, it will likely be at least 2 or 3 months before I can actually get this rifle into my possession, and in any event it would not be covered by the Form6NIA import permit I have obtained for attending Muster.
-
BTT
-
BTT
-
I was perusing some of the older posts, and returned to this one. I re-read the original post which stted that "stripper clips" would not be allowed. Am I right in assuming this is referring to the stripper clips as used in the Mauser, Lee-Enfield et al, and not the "en bloc" clips as per Mannlicher, 1895 Winchester-Lee Navy (not listed, by the way), and 1888 "Commission" rifle?
I realize the Commission rifle was the result of a colloboration between Mauser and Mannlicher (and others), so it may have been listed as an 1888 - "either one".
I once had a Turkish 88 Commission rifle, that had been arsenal (Spandau) reworked to shoot the "S"-bore (.323 cal) ammo, and had the little spring-loaded gate at the top of the magazine that eliminated the necessity of the clip. The gun was in really good shape - barrel jacket undented, nice plum patina, stock was uncracked with all hardware except sling. The bolt s/n didn't match the rifle, and I never had the headspace checked, so I never shot it. It had Arabic makings all over - the sight had Arabic numerals as well (not what we refer to as Arabic numerals today - real Arabic. I think I ended up trading it away for a two-band Enfield w/ bayonet - I was into ACW reenacting then. Kinda be cool now tho.
-
BTT
-
Sgt. Drydock is clearly a man of few words ... or perhaps to be more precise, of NO words ... since "BTT" is but an abbreviation/acronym, and thus not a word at all ... ;) However, I choose to interpret his BTT as an invitation to comment further on the Battle Rifle concept - which I now feel better able to do after personal experience at Grand Muster 2007, where I represented the British Empire with .577/.450 Martini-Henry single-shot rifle and .455 Webley revolver (... and did so fairly well, if I do say so myself! ;D ::) ;) ...)
I, for one, LOVED IT! ;D Competing with a Battle Rifle seems to truly crystalize GAF's underlying concept of melding frontier action shooting with military re-enactment/history. I found it very enjoyable, and hope that the Battle Rifle categories continue at GAF events.
I also want to take this opportunity to pose a couple of questions ... for general discussion, as well as consideration by the powers-that-be for possible modification and/or clarificatiion of the Battle Rifle criteria ....
1. As I understand the current criteria, no tubular-magazine lever-action rifle would qualify as a "Battle Rifle". However, Sgt. Drydock's specific reference in his postings to such models as the Henry and Model 1866 makes me wonder if a more accurate/appropriate distinction might be that such a tubular-magazine lever-action rifle does not qualify if chambered in a "pistol caliber" cartridge. In other words, what about a tube-magazine lever-action model with documented military issue and usage that is chambered in a "rifle caliber" cartridge, and thus (presumably) would also not be permitted in the other classes for lever-actions? A specific case-in-point (and, indeed, the immediate reason for posing this enquiry) is the Model 1876 Winchester in military configuration. such as the .45-75 "NWMP" rifle carbine ... a very nice reproduction of which I just happen to have recently acquired. ;) (Actually, I thought there had already been some discussion of this very issue either on this thread or elsewhere in the Barracks, but now I can't locate it ....)
If, as I propose, the "Mil-Spec Repeater" category were expanded/clarified to include such a rifle-caliber mil-spec tubular-magazine model with demonstrable military issue and use in the field, then the service of this particular model for some 30 years as the primary-issue longarm of the North West Mounted Police would arguably qualify it. Indeed, the NWMP was more of a military organization than a police force (at least in the modern sense) ... in fact, it is well-documented (and taught in our history clkasses up here) that when word reached Prime Minister MacDonald of the unrest being caused in Washington by his Government's proposed legislation establishing a military force for service in the North West Territories (which shared an unguarded common frontier with the American West of a thousand miles or so) a few strokes of his pen changed the name of this unit from "North West Mounted Rifles" to "North West Mounted Police" ... and the rest is history. However, it is lnot so well-known that exactly the same model of rifle was issued during the 1885 North West Rebellion to mounted military units ... including the cavalry forces despatched to the West as part of the some 6000 Militia troops mobilized and sent there. For example, here is a picture of several Troopers of The Governor-General's Body Guard for Ontario (a cavalry unit which survives to the present day as The Governor-General's Horse Guards - http://www.regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/volmil/on-cav/GGHG.htm (http://www.regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/volmil/on-cav/GGHG.htm)) taken in their camp at Humboldt, District of Saskatchewan, during their 1885 service in the West -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/GGBG_Humboldt2-1.jpg)
I should also note that, for Canadian impressions at least, it must be pointed out that Canada had no "Army" at all until well into the 20th Century. Until then, by Act of Parliament, our military forces were all "Militia" - so it is necessary to consider Canadian "Permanent" and "Active" Militia units (which were constituted, trained and equipped essentially the same as regular British Army units) to be "regular military", to differentiate them from what I suspect Sgt. Drydock likely had in mind for the GAF "Militia" class. Canada also had "Provisional Militia" - such as the numerous irregular and "Home Guard" units raised locally for the temporary emergency of the 1885 North West Rebellion (including my beloved Rocky Mountain Rangers) which would more properly fit in the "Militia" Class ....
2. My second question is somewhat related ... if a rifle such as the Canadian NWMP/Militia doesn't qualify as a Mil-Spec Repeater but would be allowed in "Militia" or "Scout" class despite its caliber, then another problem results for a competitor with a suitable 1885-1900 Canadian military impression, who might be fortunate enough to have the appropriate Canadian military-issue handgun for that period ... because it was the .45 caliber Colt Model 1878 Double-Action revolver! However, the Scout and Militia categories both specify single-action revolvers only .... :-\ (Although addressing this issue is perhaps advisable in a general sense, I again do have a personal motivation in raising it - I have hopes of acquiring an original Model 1878 Colt, of correct caliber, in the proper configuration and of appropriate date of manufacture which was almost certainly one of the Canadian-issue revolvers, though that cannot be specifically documented ... and unfortunately the majority of these handguns were not stamped with any official marks ....)
-
I'm sure MAA Drydock will have a better, more complete answer but for a quick reply I am quoting excerpts from him in the 2008 Grand Muster announcement thread.
Handguns in the Milspec classes shall be Milspec, or of demonstrated military usage, related in period to the rifle used.
Handgun Calibers in "Non Milspec" classes (Militia, Scout, Buffalo Scout and Forager) will have a minmum bore diameter of .357.
Reviewing the Battle rifle standards, you will see that it refers to hanguns, not single action revolvers. It means just that. That they should be related in PERIOD to the rifle used in the Milspec classes gives a great deal of flexibility. MILSPEC classes will be shot in accordance with Battle Rifle Standards
You may PM me with any questions. Drydock
-
Ahh, must I be forced to speak in complete sentences? ::)
The M1876 Winchester places one in the "Militia" class. You may note the argument I made for the Brigade Champion was in reference to this exact point. I had given every consideration to allowing the M1876 in the Milspec Repeater class, but it opened up a can of worms with no bottom in sight. (For instance, the US Army bought and issued Winchester 1894s for use in stateside guard duty, and someone always brings up those %!!@(&)#%# 1866s at Plevna!) I believe in simple rules, and the M1876 becomes a Militia rifle because of it, I'm afraid. "Faux" 76s (73s) in pistol caliber are still Cowboy Scout rifles.
However, your point about the revolver is well taken. I am considering dropping the Single Action revolver requirement for all classes outside of "Cowboy"and perhaps "Buffalo". I think with the reload requirements the different actions have little advantage over each other, as long as we maintain the Victorian era requirement and preclude loading aids.
I would also like to point out that the names of the classes have nothing to do with the unit backround of the weapons used, or perhaps only in the most general sense. The classes are a means of scoring weapons with similiar operational charecteristics, not similiar histories. I may simply have been too clever here, it seems to have caused some confusion.
Feedback would be appreciated, and I will be in conference with the Command Staff in response to this issue.
Drydock
-
Upon further review, and otherwise hobnobbing with my fellow wizards . . .
Jack, the 1876 stays in Militia class, but the class will now be open to Milspec or of demonstrated military use handguns.
-
In addition, we will allow participants in the Militia category, should they wish to do so, to wear an appropriate uniform in accordance with their firearms (suitably documented of course) so that they are competitive for the Brigade Champion award.
US Scout
GAF, Commanding
-
Is the Mannlicher Berthier Carbine and rifle also acceptable?
PR
-
I am familiar with the Mannlicher 86 straight pull, and the 88 commission rifle, from what period is the Berthier? I does not show up in the millitary rifle page listed in the 1st entry in this thread.
-
After doing more research on the Berthier - I realize it was borne too late.
The design is 1907 and it was not fielded until 1915/16.
I almost purchased one today - but will now keep eye open on a Lebel instead.
PR
-
MAA, Sgt. Drydock.
After reading your reply to Pony Racer's question I went back and re-read the list of approved rifles. I noticed that the "Trapdoor" officer's model is listed but not the long range model. Is that an oversight, or was the long range model intentionally left off the list?
When thinking about the "milspec" requirement it got me thinking about the various trapdoors I've owned over the years. When you say Milspec, how finicky are we being?
For instance if one had a very early serial # 73 that had a later model cleaning rod, or a late serial # rifle with an early '73 lock plate, or an '79 sight on a '73. All these parts are milspec and prior to the 1902 cutoff date but might be mismatched in terms of the serial #.
My concern is that while I could probably spot mismatched #'s & parts on a trapdoor, without an entire reference library at a shoot I probably couldn't spot them on other makes or models.
Of course, since you're coming to Ord next year I won't have to worry about that. I'll just detail you to check weapons. ;) ;D
-
Due to the nature of service, turn ins, and rebuilds, mismatched parts are common on most all Milspec weapons. If it is an issue weapon of the era, and it is in military configuration, then it is acceptable. Serial numbers, cartouches and inspector dates do not need to match.
The Long Range Model is very, VERY, rare, but it was an issue weapon in military configuration, and is quite legal. There is not current reproduction, though Pedersoli makes a rough approximation, which would be entirely legal should you wish to use it.
The only Trapdoor I can think of that could not be used as Milspec would be the handful of customs made for Freeman Bull for target shooting.
-
That's the way I'd have called it but I wanted to check with THE MAN. ;)
The Pedersoli copy was the one I was thinking of. A man woould have to be an idiot or not realize what he had to use an original Long Range to play with. (fewer than 130 made, $20,000+) And yes I also realize that the Pedersoli isn't a very good copy, I've had a chance to make a side by side comparison of mine to an original. When I bought it the plan was (IS) to replace both sights and take off the pistol grip and use it as an infantry rifle (which it is a decent copy of) in Living History demonstrations at Ft. Hartsuff. Hopefully by the next Muster I'll have had a chance to get the rear sight replaced with a standard rifle sight. Then if I ever want to use it for long range target work, I'll just put the pistol grip and the tang sight back on and slip a sight hood on it and I'm good to go.
-
How about adding a class for youngsters. Maybe call it "Post Children", or "Commanders Kids". Shooting rifle only, single shot, lever or pump, 22 cal or larger.
Dusty
-
How about adding a class for youngsters. Maybe call it "Post Children", or "Commanders Kids". Shooting rifle only, single shot, lever or pump, 22 cal or larger.
Great idea! I think we all recognize the ongoing need to encourage youth participation in the shooting sports.
As for the name ... "Army Brat"? ::) ;) Or perhaps "Cadet", or some such more respectable name ....
In fact, if the lower age limit was kept fairly 'mature', I'd see no reason to preclude them from using a handgun (with supervision if deemed necessary.) Or, have two youth divisions (e.g. 'Senior Cadet' - 12 and older, 'Junior Cadet' - under 12, or whatever) with the younger category using rifle only.
A picture of the top young shooter at our Fall two-day shoot held a few weeks ago ... 'Sassy Sam', now 13 years old I think, cute as a button and an excellent shot -
-
While I like this idea, it seems somwhat premature for an organization in its infantcy here. I would suggest someone post a seperate thread discussing this idea, and see what we get. For myself, I would limit it to single shot 22 rifles (The Savage/Stevens is in production, low priced and excellent) and 22 SA Revolvers. I would think a Stevens SS with a Ruger Bearcat would be excellent.
Perhaps I would suggest someone bring the above weapons to a match and set them up to the side to allow "Cadets" under supervision to try their hand.
-
We've made this available for several years for the postal shoot. To date we have not had any entries. That isn't to say that we shouldn't set up a category for youngsters, I think we should, we just haven't had any participation from them in the postal shoot.
Unfortunately, I can't find the regs for the youth part of the postal shoot right at the moment as I may have lost them in the last computer crash. I'll keep looking.
-
Anyone have an idea what a Swedish Mountain uniform looks like?
Dusty
Here is a great site for most Swedish arms, and military organization;
http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/sverige/art_history.htm
I can't see any mountain regiments but there are Jaeger units, equivalent to British rifle regiments. I have seen Swedish uniform pictures but can't put my finger on them now. A lot depends on defining your timeframe to search.
"Fältjägare or Jägare were formerly lightly armed sharpshooters. They were the first units to get uniforms in neutral colours."
-
Dusty: What time-frame are you interested in? Is this to possibly do up a uniform to go with a particular Swedish-issue rifle .... say one of the Rolling Blocks, or a Swedish Mauser?
It is a bit of a problem tracking down information on the Swedish military and their uniforms because Sweden was such a peaceful nation. I gather that the Kingdom was not involved in any military conflicts at all between the end of their last war with Russia in 1808/09 and their involvement in a UN peacekeeping mission in the Congo in the 1960's!
This is a Swedish language site which may be of some help - this link goes specifically to his 19th Century Part 2 page covering 1840-1900, which is the era you'd want for GAF purposes
http://www.algonet.se/~hogman/uniformer_armen_18.htm#Vargeringen_/_Bev�ringen (http://www.algonet.se/~hogman/uniformer_armen_18.htm#Vargeringen_/_Bev�ringen)
Here are a few images I have gleaned from the site, with the somewhat puzzling Google translations of their Swedish captions (for what they may be worth.) I haven't tried to translate anything else, but I get the impression that these uniform patterns were pretty standard for all Swedish infantry -
1. Uniform pattern in use 1860 to 1886, I gather -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Swedish%20uniforms/Sweden186001_zpsb50df75e.jpg)
Soldiers in infantry uniforms m/1860.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Swedish%20uniforms/Sweden186002_zps7384ba79.jpg)
Soldiers in uniform m/1860 with hat m/1865, probably Jönköping Regiment. The soldier in the middle has hat m/1865 with mice plate and plume. On his left upper sleeve he wears a '. school sign.
2. Uniform pattern apparently in use 1886-1900 -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Swedish%20uniforms/Sweden188601_zps5b97d795.jpg)
Uniform m/1886 and m/1865 cutting cap, ratings. Note the yellow piping in the pants. The soldier has an ammunition belt around his waist.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Swedish%20uniforms/Swedencap1865_zps8cf655ac.jpg)
Screen Caps m/1865, ratings. The number 6 in the hat is company number.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Swedish%20uniforms/Sweden1886uniform1865cap_zps05848a97.jpg)
Uniform m/1886 and m/1865 cutting cap, ratings. The collar can be seen the oblong button hole. No. 9 on the shoulder flap represents Skaraborg Regiment.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Swedish%20uniforms/Sweden188603_zps5b3a550b.jpg)
Three soldiers in the infantry uniforms m/1886 with peaked cap m/1865-1899.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Swedish%20uniforms/Sweden188602_zpsb6057ee7.jpg)
Soldier in uniform m/1886 with belt and peaked cap with mice plate and plume. The photograph was taken in a studio in Soderhamn as soldier belonging probably Hälsingland Regiment.
-
Looks like a reasonable copy cpould be made from period US uniforms, but with changes to the piping and insignia, except for the hat. Some of the hats may need to be custom made.
-
Although I had also found the following images when the above, was posted I didn't include them. However, it now occurs to me that for an Era of Expansion impression .... say with a Swedish Mauser - this 1906 Pattern uniform would be be unique and impressive. (Might be a bit harder to duplicate, however, especially the interesting "modern tricorn" hat ....)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Swedish%20uniforms/SWEDENINF_zps331fcf83.jpg)(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/Swedish%20uniforms/SWEDENINF2_zpsfc1a58bf.jpg)
-
Trust Rattlesnake Jack to finds reams of stuff where others, like me, are left eating dust.
Just a thought; Should there be a separate thread for research & standards for uniforms and accoutrements? The flipside is that it all comes down to an overall impression.