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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: Major Matt Lewis on July 02, 2006, 09:10:42 am

Title: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 02, 2006, 09:10:42 am
Folks,

While I was at EOT, I had the opportunity to pitch to Tex, the idea of a Military Catagory for SASS Shooters.  His reactions were positive, but he was unable to promise anything, understandably.  Anyway, he asked me to send him an email on the subject with some thoughts.  So, I did and here are some of the things that I outlined:

1. Shooters must shoot the Main Match as a one-handed or duelist style.  (This is due to the fact that in the late 1800’s the saber was considered a primary weapon wielded with the strong hand and the pistol a secondary weapon, drawn and fired from the week hand.)

2. All SASS Main Match rifles and shotguns would be allowed in the category.  All SASS authorized revolvers with a barrel length of 5.5 inches to 8 inches would be authorized for use with in the category.  (The thought behind this is that most military issue revolvers were of the 7.5 inch variety.  During the Spanish American War, the Government reissued the Colt Single Action Army cut down to 5.5 inches for Artillery Troops and Volunteers, notably the Rough Riders.  During the Civil War, the 1860 Army and 1861 Navy had 8 inch barrels.)  This category is open to all SASS authorize calibers and gauges.

3. The shooter must compete with flapped holsters.  It is the shooter’s option to use either pistol but forward or pistol but to the rear.  All SASS safety rules concerning the 170 degree apply here.

4. The shooter must have at least 1 cartridge box secured to their pistol belt.  The belt buckle must have an emblem or symbol of the persona in which they are creating i.e. the 1851 US Eagle Belt Buckle or CSA, etc. 
The Shotgun Belt must be of canvas web construction and hold no more than one shot-shell per loop hole.  (This is based of the prairie belt that was worn by members of the military on the frontier and during the Spanish American War.  During this time in history, the only likely military member that would have access to a shotgun was the Company Cook.)

5.  The shooter must be dressed in uniform throughout the entire event.  In the case of a major event such as End of Trail, the participant must be in uniform for the side matches, main match, banquet (if applicable), and awards ceremony.

The participants shooting uniform must contain elements of the follow:

 A hat with appropriate branch or rank emblems or cords and piping.  Palm style plantation style hats would be allowed in hot weather (they were used widely in the southwest by the frontier military and during the summer in the Civil War.)

Rank that is consistent with the persona that the shooter is creating i.e. stars for a general, etc.  (Rank can also be defined by the size of the stripe on the trousers, collar pinned rank, shoulder boards or hat cords.  In the case of somebody shooting as a Private, none of these would apply.)

Boots shall be of either the squared toe cavalry style boots, Civil War style Brogans or some variation of, or the 1895 Combat Shoe.  No modern style combat boots will be allowed.  If the shooter does not wear cavalry style boots, the shooter must wear leggings.  Cavalry Style boots must be accompanied by spurs.

Now, if y'all want to see this grow, I would urge that you contact your local clubs and ask that the catagory be offered at a monthly level match.  If the catagory get's participation, maybe we can see the catagory offered at annual matches and then regionals....etc.  Now, keep in mind that IF we are successful, it will be a few years before we see adoption, so if we are going to gain approval, it will be a marathon, not a sprint.

Thank you,

Major Matt Lewis


Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Cannon Fodder on July 02, 2006, 10:16:48 am
Excellent  idea and article,Major!

I talked to Tex and Ellsworth T Kincaid briefly at Mulecamp  but not on any specifics.

Maybe this is a good way to start.

Sgt F B (Cannon) Fodder
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Blackey Cole on July 02, 2006, 02:34:12 pm
MAjor, my idea was to be mor eperiod correct ie firearms must match those usesd by troops for the era they are protraying.  Ie CW C&B for hand guns SXS for shotgun, and rifles for the side they were portraying IE to use Henry's you must be a member of the usits that carried them.  Otherwise it is the trapdoor or spencer.  IW use cartridge hand guns and 73's or other guns for the period portraying.  Also, ispection would be done per regs for that era to insure you comply.  A handbook could be created that would simplify the research.  Only exceptions would be facial hair and the haircuts would be exempt from the inspect but shooter would be urgerd to comply but it wouldn't be nessecery. What you think about it.  This wouldn't make you very competive overall but would be great as a class.  you would have to dress and shoot traditionally for the era.  It could be a single hand gun class and limit rounds in the rifle to 6 or 7 like a plainsman match.  Shotgun woudl be a third firearm used to finish the stage or to start a stage.
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 02, 2006, 02:44:01 pm
Blackey,

I see your idea as being an excellent one for an NCOWS shoot where more focus is placed on authenticity.  As a matter of fact, it sounds a lot like the GAF Muster.....This year it is in Ackley, Iowa... ;)  We would love to have you....

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9091.0.html

http://www.lone-gunman.com/Muster/

However, I wanted to keep the catagory scalable and implementable for SASS. 
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Bull Schmitt on July 02, 2006, 06:15:08 pm
Sgt. Drydock,

Does the 1865--1901 period being identified as the Victorian era by necessity thus exclude the Henry rifle? I believe some Winchester 73 rifles were used by the Turkish army? Should they be included in the permitted list of rifles?

Respectfully,

Bvt Col Bull Schmitt
Commander Depat. of the Atlantic
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Drydock on July 02, 2006, 06:24:16 pm
As per above, no.  Plenty other venues for those.  This is a main battle rifle class within the GAF.  Every other class at the Muster or at any CAS shoot provides a venue for Pistol caliber lever actions.  A Henry is in fact my main match rifle, see my picture at left   ;D
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 02, 2006, 06:57:53 pm
That would be AWESOME if we had that class with in GAF, but I want to be perfectly clear that I am advocating a SASS shooting catagory here do not want this to be interpretated as trying to introduce Krags or other non-pistol caliber rifles into SASS as a Main Match rifle.

With that said, I would love to shoot the GAF Match with my Krag some day....
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Rancid Roy on July 02, 2006, 09:37:23 pm
Howdy,

As a CAS shooter and now "suiting" up for the "military side" [I bought a Yankee Kepi from Coon Creek at EOT06] I would like to address the ranks here on the proposed SASS Category "Military".

Officers and senior non-coms carried non-issue sidearms and longarms in the Indian Wars. And all ranks did wear civilian shirts and buckskins on campaign depending on the unit and command. So I am thinking the category should allow at least buckskin trousers [with or without fringe], civilian shirts in solid white, checks, etc. such as the C&W sutlers offer. Perhaps buckskin coats and shirts? as in offciers wearing buckskin with rank shoulder boards? However if a person does Private Joeslick the Ragman he has to be dressed properly as a private, i.e. generally in proper uniform?

I agree with handguns of no barrel length below 5 1/2 although Custer carried English Bulldogs.

I see a problem with repeaters versus single-shots in competition as in a Spencer versus a Springfield and offcers and senior non-coms carried Winchester lever guns and Henrys as well. Although I would like to see the scenarios set up to shoot single-shot carbines and rifles of the era as in Sharps linen, Smith, Springfield, etc. I.E. targets far enough downrange to accomodate the larger bores. If lever guns were allowed they'd have to shoot the same targets and distances.

I like the idea of "flapped" holsters and some type of required military belt and equipage as well.

But I think we must be careful in requiring such "authenticity" that it becomes a "re-enacting" event with "stitch nazis" running around and verbally thrashing people over their costume. I did a little bit of WWI and WWII re-enacting and some of those folks were big bores. Another problem with any "historical" category is that the rules can often be made and interpretated by a narrow-minded individual whose only viewpoint of "what they wore in 1876" is what the Seventh Cavalry wore. Or "this is what the historical orders read as to what they were authorized" when in reality the same unit actually wore uniforms cobbled up from C&W, Indian Wars, and civilian issue.

Plus SASS and CAS is a mixture of historically accurate, movie, and fantasy "Old West" So maybe the "Military Category" might have to be expanded to allow those parameters? I.E. I'm thinking chevorns and shoulder boards were not worn on issue shirts but only on "blouses" [coats] and coats. However in a lot of movies you'll see the ranks wearing rank on their shirts and quite often officers wearing "shield front" or bib shirts. Maybe the allowance of dress codes to encompass "Hollywood Military" as well?

I think we should pursue this to allow Confederate as well?

Let's keep this going to SASS.
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Pony Racer on July 02, 2006, 10:12:22 pm
I think this is a great idea; however, I dod take issue with having to use a flapped holster.

Naval equipage of the time for a pistol was basically a "frog' style holster "gun bucket" - iv'e heard some people say that had a strap of leather that came over the gun and hooked up on the body of the holster.

You could say that the strap is a type of "flap" but it would be better to include wording that would ok the naval type holster to ensure that shooting time "no go's" do not interfere with a funmatch time.

Other than the holster issue - I think this is great!!

V/R

PR
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Reb Tyree on July 02, 2006, 10:23:18 pm
Good evening to all.  First off let me say this is a great idea.  I would love to be able to shoot in a match that allowed single shot rifles a such as my 1863 sharps carbine, 54 cal. armed with an 1851 or 1860 Colt or a 1858 Remington.  I like the idea of the "Military catagory." And Yes only the "Holy Black Powder."   :) :) :) 8)

I have the honor to remain,

Your obedient servant

Bvt Lt. Col Reb Tyree, CSA
Cheif of Staff, Dept of the Pacific,
Grand Army of the Frontier
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Drydock on July 02, 2006, 11:31:21 pm
While I like the idea of a SASS military catagorie in theory, practicaly speaking this is a bad time for such a proposal, with the recent introduction of the firearms covenant, and implimentation of the smoke standard.  I suspect SASS would rather have a catagorie moritorium for a few years now, and let all this settle out. 

The costume/caliber limitations of Classic Cowboy fit quite well, as does Frontier Cartridge Duelist.  I would like to concentrate on simply assembling Military Possses at Major matchs.  Having the uniforms shooting together would be far more impressive than having them scattered about in a redundant class.  A uniformed Posse would also be better able to spread enthusiasem about GAF, and it would be within the GAF that folks could then exercise those more military specific weapons. 

IMHO, have a cup of coffee on me!   ::)
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: bosunpete on July 03, 2006, 02:04:33 am
I think this is a great idea; however, I dod take issue with having to use a flapped holster.

Naval equipage of the time for a pistol was basically a "frog' style holster "gun bucket" - iv'e heard some people say that had a strap of leather that came over the gun and hooked up on the body of the holster.

You could say that the strap is a type of "flap" but it would be better to include wording that would ok the naval type holster to ensure that shooting time "no go's" do not interfere with a funmatch time.

Other than the holster issue - I think this is great!!

V/R

PR

ahh, thank you PonyRacer. I was about to post my concern on this very subject, but you covered it to a 't'.

I will post a photo of a naval pistol frog at a later time.

Bosun Pete
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 03, 2006, 09:27:16 am
Folks,

Your killing me.  Many of you are not even reading the structure of the POTENIAL catagory...Case in point, the allowance of Confederate uniforms.  I even used CSA as an example of a belt buckle.  The implication was that the catagory, IF APPROVED, was not confinded to just that of Federal Soldiers or Indian War Soldiers.  Also, the Uniform Guidelines are open enough to include Hollywood and authentic.  Shirts are not even mentioned.

I ALSO WANT TO POINT OUT THAT I AM NOT ADVOCATING THE ADDITION OF SINGLE SHOT RIFLES INTO THE SASS GAME; NOR DID I PROPOSE IT. 

Folks, please consider that I posted this out in public space not to change the world or ask for a lot of public input.  I put it out here so folks how were willing to assist in the birth or this class would have a place to direct their local club leadership and territorial govenor to.  I am grateful for the unsolicited public feedback, but I am cognizant enough to know that we will not be able to get this catagory to be allowed if a match director has to crack the US Army Uniform Regulations for 1881.  Ain't going to happen.  If you are willing to support this, as is to get something out there, take the original guidelines to your club President and Territorial Govenor and ask them to support it by offering it as a monthly catagory and bringing it up at the Territorial Govenors meeting.

The Guidelines that I proposed are not ment to chance the way the game is played, just open up a new area or it.  Also keep in mind, no matter how hard you try, you can't please everybody.
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Rancid Roy on July 03, 2006, 08:13:14 pm
Personally, I think if lever guns are authorized they should be re-chambered to 50/70 or 45/70. I'm sure we can find competent gunsmiths who can stretch a Henry's frame from .44/40 to 45/70?!?!

Just kidding.

Major, you started this now you're gonna have to put up with folks getting excited about it.  ;D

I think it has merit. Keep the uniform rules easy [we're not re-enacting]. Keep the weapons in the standard SASS types [I withdraw my request for single-shot martial arms]. I do think limitng barrel length might be re-considered. As I said before Custer carried Bulldogs. The Kit Carson museum in Taos has a Colt 1862 Pocket Navy that an officer describes failing him in 1867 so he "laid it on a rock" and never recoverd it. In 1967?? a person who read his account went to the site and found it!!

I suggest maybe one holster must be flapped? The other may be "SASS Legal"?

If it helps I might be able to help in the "Military Category" implementation.

Maybe SASS will provide a special "Sutler's Row" only for the soldiers [and sailors] and maybe them kind of places where them "sodger boys" went to drink and have........ wicked FUN!!! on payday!! All strictly for the SASS military!!!

Just kidding again......
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Reb Tyree on July 03, 2006, 08:29:23 pm
Good Evening to all.   

First I must agree with Majotr Matt Lewis.  I agree with need contact our territorial Governors and local clubs to and propose the idea of a"Military Catagory."  This would greatly enhance the general view GAF in the SASS community.  I also do not wish to force anyone into using a single shot rifle.  Although as an option, stages could be set for those who wish to use a single shot rifle.

Major Matt Lewis, Sir I salute you for you continuied forward thinking!  I'll be glad to support you in this matter!

I have the honor to remain,

Your obedient servant;

Bvt Lt Col (SSG) Reb Tyree, CSA
Chief of Staff, Dept of the Pacific,
Grand Army of the Frontier  
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Blackey Cole on July 03, 2006, 10:14:59 pm
Matt Rancid is the MD/Pres for one of the local clubs I shoot with so he already knows my veiw point or will if when he reads this.  THe other club that I am a member I will not get involved with any more for personal reasons.  I support your Idea but need to read it to refresh what you propsed vs what I have in mind.

Sgt Dry DOck I really like your idea of forming  posses at the larger matches like the BP shooters do.  See if you can get the Boardertown to setup a posse like that.  I think it would make for some great posse photos.  I am perty much dressed as hollywood calavry.  I am working making the correct leather goods to be acurate but I have a hard tiem with wool but will be gettin a wool uniform down the road.  Right now I use the denium pants with the strips from Coon Creek and the cotton two pocket shirts.  Boots will be another item that will be down the road since I will need to have them made custom so that I can get my big feet and large calves in to them.  But let me know if you are shooting at the FOunders ranch and I will try to make it on your posse.
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 03, 2006, 11:29:49 pm
Blackey,

I am right there with you with the big feet and calves...Now, I have had great luck with Missouri Boot and Shoe company.  I also have a custom pair of cavalry boots being made by Fall Creek Sultery....For about $230.

Now Gents,

I thank you for your assistance in getting the ball rolling...That's awesome.  There may be some additional momentum which I will hold close to the vest for now. 
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: US Scout on July 04, 2006, 07:04:46 am
Well Done Bvt Lt Col and Maj Matt Lewis-

Back when I used to post on the SASS Wire, I was a strong advocate of a "Military Category."  Usually got shot down on the grounds that there were too many categories already and SASS didn't need another one.  Of course, that didn't stop the "Classic Cowboy" from being created.

I brought it up once when chatting with Tex and the Judge.  Both gave supportive but non-committing comments - as might be expected.

I'm still in favor of a military category, much as Maj Lewis has defined - perhaps modeled after the Classic Cowboy category which is more restrictive on what can and can't be worn, shot, or carried.  We'll always have trouble with the shotgun since that didn't really become an issue firearm until WWI, well outside the time limit of SASS.

One thing I would like to see emphasized though is the use of the "cavalry twist" when using a butt-forward flap holster.  This is allowed in SASS, though many RO's still insist that the wearer exectute the cross draw shuffle when drawing the pistol.

As Maj Lewis has stated, this is posted for discussion and promotion to your respective TGs.  Don't shoot the idea down just because it doesn't fit your concept of what a military category should be.  Right now there is no military category, so any step in that direction is a positive one.  The GAF can make a signiificant contribution toward the pomotion of that category by coming up with a good definition of what the category comprises for eventual submission to and by the TGs.  If well thought out and written, it'll have a much better chance of being accepted.  We will still run into the nay-sayers, but that is to be expected.

US Scout
GAF Commanding
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Mustang Gregg on July 04, 2006, 07:30:56 am
Well, I like the idee of a Military Category in theory.
But flap type holsters are not allowed in SASS due to safety reasons---REHOLSTERIN' DIFFICULTIES.
And scoring would be a booger if'n there were a different number of guns used-----IE: NO SHOTGUNS.

MG

Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 04, 2006, 08:15:33 am
Ah Gregg,


Flap holsters are allowed in SASS.  Just between you and I, a very well known member of SASS with juice suggested that we use them when I pitched him the catagory and a number of shooters had them at EOT and there was no issue.  And also, nobody is trying to elimate the shotgun for exactly the reason you spoke of....But if you use my guidelines, you will need a canvas Mills style shotgun belt that only holds one shotshell per loop.
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Mustang Gregg on July 04, 2006, 08:23:08 am
Major:
Good!   If we can get a new category, that would be cool.  I do have a Mills-type shotgun belt that I use when SASS shooting in my USV uniform.  It's dyed blue as NG would've had.
As for the flap-type holster---I was just at an RO II school & it was put out that they are NOT approved by SASS.
Thanks,
Gregg
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 04, 2006, 08:37:20 am
Hmmmmm,

That's funny.  You may want to ask for your money back.  Your instructor is FOS (Full Of Sxxx).  I have been an RO 2 for two years now and never heard of that....Not to mention, upon reading your post, I went to the SASS Home page and down loaded the handbook.  And under holsters, there is no mention of the flap at all.  Not to mention, Tex probably would not have suggested it if they were not legal ;)


Not mentioned in the "Outlawed" Section or the "Safety" Safety section either. 
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Mustang Gregg on July 04, 2006, 09:02:16 am
Major:

I looked in the latest SASS handbook & you're correct---NO MENTION OF FLAP-TYPE HOLSTERS.  But I reckon it COULD be a sweep/safety issue.  Possibly since 2 hands are used to reholster(??).
   
 ???    Maybe they were gettin' info outta an older SASS handbook.    ???
 I will need to do some deep research to locate them older ruke books around here.

MG
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Drydock on July 04, 2006, 10:19:38 am
I have every issue of the handbook ever published, and can assure you flap holsters have NEVER been mentioned in any way.  Used a flap holster to shoot SASS for over 10 years.  The instructor is FOS, as was well put.  Substituiting uninformed opinion for fact happens at every level, unfortunatly.

Next time you hear something like that, just tell them "Show me where it says that!"  and pull out a handbook.  They'll hem and haw, and then say  "Well, I just thought . . ."
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 04, 2006, 11:02:13 am
Let's also be perfectly clear here.

I did already submit the guidelines to SASS.  They are getting a little favorable traction.  The guidelines as submitted challange my shooting paradigms as well.  I currently do not shoot with flapped holsters and my shotshell belt is leather where I can grab 4 at once. 

If SASS wishes to go with this potential catagory, they may wish to change what I have submitted.  That is their perogortive.  So, there is not really anything open for debate here.  If you wish to support the cause petition your local clubs Territorial Govenor and club leadership.  If you have an axe to grind or are not comfortable, please, for the benefit of all of us, keep it quite.  If you don't support the guides, don't talk to your club leadership....

Also, keep in mind, it would be a damn shame if the SASS Wild Bunch or Territorial Govenors popped over here to read this and found out we are a fractionalize group of ranting dip shots....

Boys & Girls,

This is where we really need to have our collective head and rear wired on the same circuit....This is where the rubber meets the road.  We don't need bunny trails nor red herrings like the "Great Flapped Holster Controversy."

Also, keep in mind that the only rule book that we care about is the current edition, which was sent to us recently in The Chronical and is out on the SASS Website.  Remember, in last year's rule book, the Marlin 98 was legal.  Now it is not, as a case in point....

Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Trailrider on July 04, 2006, 12:28:33 pm
Major:

I looked in the latest SASS handbook & you're correct---NO MENTION OF FLAP-TYPE HOLSTERS.  But I reckon it COULD be a sweep/safety issue.  Possibly since 2 hands are used to reholster(??).
   
 ???    Maybe they were gettin' info outta an older SASS handbook.    ???
 I will need to do some deep research to locate them older ruke books around here.

MG

Gentlemen:

Why does it take two hands to reholster?  The flap can easily be held open by the thumb and wrist, or the flap can be tucked behind the belt.  I believe there is nothing in the Major's recommendations that requires the holster flap be fastened when the shooter is on the firing line.

The bigger "problem" is going to be how the butt-forward hang of the "issue" holster will affect the method of the draw.  The issue holsters have cant angles of about 22 degrees off vertical.  If the belt loops on the holsters are "as issued", they do not allow for the holster to be swung to vertical, so, technically, the shooter might be breaking the 170 if he uses a strong side twist draw.  I personally think this is a non-issue as shooters wearing high-ride, high-cut, strong-side, butt rear draw with a 7-1/2" barreled gun almost invariably breaks the 170 as the muzzle clears leather!  But, of course, nobody complains about this!  Nor should they!  In point of fact, I have stated time and time-again that the ONLY way a single action revolver, properly carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber, can discharge is if the shooter purposely touches the hammer spur with his/her thumb...or somebody hits them with a flame-thrower!  Keeping the thumb off the hammer until the gun is pointed downrange solves the problem, regardless of the holster hang or the style of carry.  Just convinve the RO's!  One solution might be a pair of "Forsythe"-style holsters, which were a full-flap, butt-rear (butt-forward versions were also made) holster, with various style belt loops for use with the wide canvas Mills belts or saber belts.  These may not have been issued until the 1890's, and then in small quantities for trials with the troops.

One thing I would suggest regarding holster rigs...  It is a fact, supported by at least one photo of a 6th Cav trooper, in Arizona in the 1880's, wearing a civilian Mexican loop holster and cartridge belt with his Colt's SAA butt REAR on the right side.  Might want to permit that so long as other pieces of uniform, though encouraging the wear of regulation rigs.  The other question is what to do about packing the second pistol, since that was definitely NOT regulation, and seldom practiced except perhaps during the "late unpleasantness", and then especially by Confederate troopers.

[Note: Please understand, I am NOT soliciting business for myself, although I do make holsters.  The above discussion is merely to bring up some factors that may need to be addressed in massaging the details of this new category.]

Re: The potential use of various rifles.  I do see somewhat of a difficulty in requiring the use of any certain repeating rifles, as it would be unreasonable to force someone otherwise interested in this catagory to purchase a different rifle, if, for example, he/she has a M1894 Marlin or M1892 Rossi.  I DO think the use of earlier repeating rifles (Henry, Winchester '66 and '73) be ENCOURAGED.  As to single shot rifles, I have some older Lyman handloading manuals that show 190 gr. bullets loaded with smokeless powder at around 1100-1300 ft/sec in the .45-70.  While most bullets in these lighter weights are for .45 LC and would be small for the .45-70 (.454 vs. .457).  It is possible that loads could be developed for, say 250 gr. .45 LC bullets, and the smaller bullets be used effectively for use in Trapdoor Springfields.  It MIGHT be necessary to obtain custom moulds or have one commercial bullet makers set up for .458" 250 gr. bullets.  If enough shooters went this route, we might be able to convince the "powders" to allow us to use single-shot rifles and carbines.

One thing that might discourage stage designers from allowing the use of single-shot rifles is the elapsed time required to shoot the same targets being used by repeaters.  A full "patrol" (posses are for civilians) might take an additional ten or fifteen minutes to shoot a stage versus using repeaters.

These are just some thoughts I've had on this matter.  I definitely support the effort to introduce a military shooting classification to SASS matches!

Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Blackey Cole on July 04, 2006, 02:57:44 pm
Maj.  US Scout may have said somethign that would work as a starting point for the category.  Make it a category like CC and BW where you may shoot ceertian pistols calibers Ie 44 and 45 as I am not knowledgable enough to make the comment that 38 were never issued but I never heard of anything other than 45 and 44 being issued to soidlers.  I think the dress should corespond to that of the other two dress classes.  Ie Shirt must be oof the designed issued to the enlisted soilder and for officers something that would have been worn while on campain.  Pants the same thing with the width of the strip to correspond to the grade.  Shoes either allow lace up if worn with garters or cavalry high tops if worn out side the pants leg or a uniform that woiuld pass muster if in garrison.  Uniforms changed depending on duty you could also use fatigues for stabel duty.  Leather sabare belt or the mills belt depending on custumes leather was worn in garrison and the canvas was used for campian duty.  Hat you could have a choise depending on duty the kepi or a slouch depending also on duty.  But if we could come up with requirementsa based on the format used for CC & BW then it might fly eaiser and then down the line if need be we modify it to become more authintic.  Right now I wear a uniform I got from Coon Creek which is no where near correct materials but toi the eye looks correct.  You saw me in it at EOT and it is more confortable for me than the wool.  The idea is to look the part not be the part.
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 04, 2006, 10:43:19 pm
Blackey,

Stand by a quick lesson...

The Navy and the Marine Corps never adapted the .45 LC SAA.  As a mater of fact they kept the 1851 Navy RM Conversion right up until 1889 when they adapted the Colt New Navy.  The 1851 RM Conversion, was chambered in .38 Colt, as was the Colt New Navy Models 1889, 1892 and 1895.  Not to mention the New Army Models that were readily available by the Spanish American War (1898).  Buy the way, the SASS time period does encompass the Spanish American War.  When I shoot, I mostly shoot as a Spanish American War/Boxer Rebellion Marine to avoid wearing wool uniforms, because I like to be mostly authentic when I "put it on."  At EOT, I bought a Rough Rider Outfit.    ;D

If we followed the Classic Cowboy line too closely, than there really would not be a need for the Military Catagory, and from what I understand, the Classic Cowboy folks don't want us in thier backyard, which is one reason why the idea of a Military Catagory may have potential...

But knowing Scout pretty well, I believe that he was suggesting to built the catagory like Classic Cowboy, which is what I did.  My reasons for scripting all calibers was to specifically keep the option of the 1851 Navy and all the following .38 calibers in the class.  Not to mention that I know a lot of people who now have issues shooting the .45 because of Carple Tunnel, age, arthritus etc...Now, I am not saying the guidelines don't need tweaking, but the ball is in SASS' court now.  Let's focus having clubs let us play as a catagory.  I am sure that the powers that be as SASS will tweak them IF they decide to give the catagory a shot...
Title: Re: Proposed Military Category
Post by: Blackey Cole on July 05, 2006, 12:10:35 am
Maj, I think you misunderstood what I was saying as far as the CC issue,  What I was trying to say was have requirements for X number of items from a list like, Flap holster, sword, wild rag, suspenders, saber belt, Cap pouch, ammo box, Designation of rank on pants and shirt.  Etc have a list so the shooter can choose from to build their outfit.  Have it look better than be.  I said I wasn't sure of the caliber and thanks for setting me straight on that.  In no way was I saying for us to shoot in CC but have requirements on dress and equipment like they did for CC and BW.  Sorry to hit a nerve.
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 05, 2006, 09:01:18 am
Didn't hit a nerve, most people rightfully so do not think of the Navy and Marines when shooting SASS.  But as to your point about require X amount of things, I am in total agreement.  I did not submit what I viewed the final outcome to be....as I know that if SASS adopts it, they will make changes...
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Pitspitr on July 07, 2006, 02:36:13 pm
Boots shall be of either the squared toe cavalry style boots, Civil War style Brogans or some variation of, or the 1895 Combat Shoe.  No modern style combat boots will be allowed.  If the shooter does not wear cavalry style boots, the shooter must wear leggings.  Cavalry Style boots must be accompanied by spurs.

Major Lewis,
I'm a little confused by this and would like some clarification. (This could be construed as arguing but isn't meant that way) This would appear to leave my period "out in the cold" as the infantry shoe was redesigned in the early 1870's and leggins weren't issued untill the 1880's. Also at least one infantryman at Ft. Hartsuff wore cavalry style boots, but I doubt he wore spurs. How should I reconcile this rule with my persona?
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 07, 2006, 03:31:54 pm
You know, I actually had some thoughts around foot wear a couple of days a go.  If the proposal gets to the point of birth, than I am assuming (We all know what happens when we do that) that we would get the opportunity for a finalized guidelines.  What I sent in is just to get the conversation started....but agree with you as well as forgien troops may not have had leggings.....
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Trailrider on July 08, 2006, 02:46:24 pm
Gentlemen:

I have been thinking (WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!) about the possibilities of using the big bore single-shot rifles in the military catagory.  For safety, such guns will HAVE to use loads that are no hotter than a comparable .45 LC round, i.e., 250 gr bullet at no more than about 1200 ft/sec.  One difficulty will be obtaining a 250 gr, .458" dia. bullet, as the .454" bullets would be too small, with the possible exception of using a soft bullet and BP.

Q.  DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A SOURCE OF READY-CAST BULLETS 250 gr. .457-.458" dia.?  I'd prefer HARD CAST for use with smokeless, but soft bullets might be used with BP.

The second problem is development loads that will produce the above velocities using smokeless powders.  The 250 gr bullet is VERY light for the case capacity of the .45-70, and some experimentation will be necessary to determine loads safe for Trapdoor Springfields, as well as staying within the velocity restrictions of SASS.  (I DO have a .45-70 rifle instrumented with a strain gage for the Oehler M43 PBL system.)  Has anyone else experimented with .45-70 loads of this type?

Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Pitspitr on July 11, 2006, 08:31:42 pm
Well Jim, one option might be a variation on the "gallery" load which is a .457 RB over 4gr FFF deep seated in the case. The biggest problem with load would be that they are difficult to feed. One might need to use somewhere around 15 gr to get "nock-downs"
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Trailrider on July 11, 2006, 09:49:45 pm
Pitspitr,

That thought had also crossed my mind.  So far as feeding is concerned, with a good roll crimp, in a Trapdoor, it wouldn't be too bad...I don't think.  Anyway, until I can get some time, it will have to go on hold for awhile. I still would like to get some bullets like a .45 LC, but in .457-.458".  I may call around to various mould makers...Rapine, RCBS, etc....and see what they might be able to do...maybe lap out a mould or something, rather than cutting a new cherry...unless, of course there seemed to be enough market for a mould.

If you get to try something like the .457 RB, etc., post the data and let us know how it works out.

Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Books OToole on July 12, 2006, 10:32:32 am
Why is there so much effort being made to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Authentic military arms of the Victorian era are not compatable with SASS or NCOWS rules regarding what arms can be used.

The GAF needs to develope its own rules, classes, etc.

Example Classes;

Enlisted infantry - 1873-1892 Single shot rifle - (they were not issured sidearms/pistols)
                         1892-1900 Bolt action rifle - (for those in the late 19th Century - still no side arms)

Enlisted Cavalry -  Pre-1873 Repeating carbine and cap & Ball revolver
                         1873-1892  Single shot carbine & a SAA.
                         1892-1900  Bolt action carbine & SAA.

Officer -              Revolver only.

Scout -               Just about anything goes.

Weapons & Uniforms must be matched for the era portrayed.  For military personell they must unit's TO& E for the era.

Most Targets will stand up to 45-70 government.  Targets that will hold up under mil-spec .30 cal. Government (.30-40 Krag) are out there.

This will take no more effort that all the "whittling" that is being done to get the square GAF peg into the SASS round hole.

And the final product will be far superior.

Just the humble opinion of an old military living-historian. (Who is becoming a decent CAS shooter.)

Michael "Books" Tatham
Capt. 5th Kansas Battery
Acting Artillery Commander, Dept. of Missouri
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Drydock on July 12, 2006, 11:32:58 am
SASS/NCOWs are not going to allow the big single shots on the line.  Not gonna happen. If you want to use a Milspec weapon in a cowboy style match, your best bet is going to be GAF. We are formulating rules for just this sort of thing.

 Join it, encourage it, maybe have a Mini Muster side match, or try a Muster Match at your club on a 5th weekend, if there can be enough interest shown.
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Blackey Cole on July 12, 2006, 11:34:21 am
What no Hollywood class?
Also where do you get a TO&E?
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Blackey Cole on July 12, 2006, 11:36:34 am
Current SASS alows the Spencer in the origianl cartridge? plus the pistol caliber versions that were reproduced to be legal before this year.
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Books OToole on July 12, 2006, 12:01:25 pm
Driydock;

According to Griz the KVC tests all new targets with a hot .45-70.  If it breaks, it was a defective target.

Blackey;

HMMMMM. Since we are starting from the ground up, we can do anything we want.

I just rewatched Major Dundee last night.  Some effort was made to be weapons correct.  The cartridge conversions for cap & ball pistols were better than Peacemakers.  They called their rifles Henrys but they were really brass plated '92s without a forestock.  This was pretty neat since the film was made before any Henry reproductions were available.  Lt. Graham's "baby howizer" should have be a 12 pound Mountain Howitzer. [Now that would have been too cool.]

Hmmmm.  A Hollywood class for those who just want to shoot SASS in a uniform of sorts.  I think that would be okay, as long as there are also some authentic classes.

Michael "Books" Tatham
Capt. 5th Kansas Battery
Acting Artillery Commander, Dept. of Missouri
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Pawnee Bill on July 12, 2006, 12:15:41 pm
Why is there so much effort being made to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Authentic military arms of the Victorian era are not compatable with SASS or NCOWS rules regarding what arms can be used.

The GAF needs to develope its own rules, classes, etc.

Weapons & Uniforms must be matched for the era portrayed.  For military personell they must unit's TO& E for the era.



And the final product will be far superior.

Just the humble opinion of an old military living-historian. (Who is becoming a decent CAS shooter.)

Michael "Books" Tatham
Capt. 5th Kansas Battery
Acting Artillery Commander, Dept. of Missouri
Although I don't really have a dog in this fight I agree it's kinda like reinventing the wheel
Cheers
Pawnee Bill
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 12, 2006, 01:28:41 pm
I don't see it as reinventing the wheel.  I see it as making the wheel bigger.  Now, if you look at the idea of a Military catagory and the guidelines in which I wrote, nobody is proposing to use big bore stuff or change the way the SASS Game is played.  As with B-Western and Classic Cowboy, it is a catagory based on costuming and other accoutraments.  And it has the same merits of B-Western and Classic Cowboy.

Now, that being said, as a SASS Catagory, I am about to be blunt here, I don't give a hoot or a holler about complete and total authenticity.  I dress mostly authentic, but that's me....Also, being a SASS Catagory, under SASS guidelines, Hollywood Military impressions are not only allowed, but they are welcomed with open arms.  Also, under SASS guidelines, Big Bore Rifles are not allowed in main-matches. 

Now, that said, if you want to shoot your Big Bore stuff in a main match, checkout Sgt Drydock's thread on the subject.  Also, I strongly urge that before taking the time to post a response to a thread, we take the time to reflect on the meaning of the post.  The Military Catagory has been proposed to the SASS Wild Bunch as a new catagory, so that would mean that all SASS rules would apply to the catagory.  That means no Big Bores in the main match, Hollywood looks are fine.  All SASS rules for main match guns, ammo and safety would apply.  Many are reading way too much into this and interjecting their thoughts and ideas, while mudding the intention.  Many are doing so, because they have not read nor taken care to understand the point of this post, which has been clearly posted with in the thread. 
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 12, 2006, 01:32:23 pm


Hmmmm.  A Hollywood class for those who just want to shoot SASS in a uniform of sorts.  I think that would be okay, as long as there are also some authentic classes.


Gee Mike, I am glad you approve.  Does this mean you are going to join SASS now?  Buy the way, this is what the entire thread was about....I know it can be hard to rake through all the muck, but you got it....
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Books OToole on July 12, 2006, 02:14:01 pm
Rich;

Sorry about high-jacking your thread.  :-[  I thought it would be a good place to start a discussion of creating a real Military Action Shooting organization.  I believe that the GAF has that potential, but we have to think outside the SASS/NCOWS boxes.

And no on joining SASS.  I refused to join NCOWS until they created a 2 gun class.  If SASS were to do that, I might consider joining.

The quote that you used regarding a "Hollywood Class" was in the context of a new Organization.  [I don't really care what SASS does, I don't have a horse in that race.]

Books
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 12, 2006, 02:26:58 pm
Rich;

Sorry about high-jacking your thread.  :-[  I thought it would be a good place to start a discussion of creating a real Military Action Shooting organization.  I believe that the GAF has that potential, but we have to think outside the SASS/NCOWS boxes.

And no on joining SASS.  I refused to join NCOWS until they created a 2 gun class.  If SASS were to do that, I might consider joining.

The quote that you used regarding a "Hollywood Class" was in the context of a new Organization.  [I don't really care what SASS does, I don't have a horse in that race.]

Books

You know, the idea of a MAS or as I once called it, FMAS, is a dang fine one.  Great idea for nitch marketing.  No worries about the hijacking, this thread has been high jacked so many times, now even Lebanon will not allow it to be read there.... ;)
Title: Re: Proposed Military Catagory
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on July 13, 2006, 09:04:34 am
Not looking to change the GAF Muster or to disaffiliate with NCOWS.  As a matter of fact, in reality, GAF has nothing to do really with the proposed shooting catagory.  It's not "GAF Approved."  There was no "GAF Committee."  This is just my effort to get like-minded SASS shooters together and show SASS that there is interest in this potential catagory.
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