Looking for advice, direction and if necessary, a reality check here. After shooting my original trapdoor carbine with light smokeless handloads (8.5gr of Unique behind a 300 gr coated Quality Cast flat point bullet) in the Cody Dixon category this year , I am heeding the advice of multiple pards and switching to back powder for this gun. Since I have never fired, much less loaded a black powder round before, I am basically starting from square one.
For those unfamiliar with Cody Dixon, basically a rifle caliber single shot (or in another category, lever gun) rifle replaces the pistol caliber rifle and fires 6 shots per stage at targets at about 50 yards. So in a five stage match, a Cody Dixon rifle will fire 30 rounds. I anticipate shooting two matches per month, back to back on the same weekend. )
I only intend to load black powder for .45-70 and only for the trapdoor carbine shooting at .50 yards. With the loads I have been using, (about 1000fps) anything but the lowest sight setting overshoots the target.
I see conflicting advice online regarding powder measures. I recently retired my RCBS measure and went to a digital powder measure/dispenser in part because the RCBS had become unreliable, having to be reset every 4-5 throws. I don't imagine the digital unit is appropriate for black powder , however, so guess I need a need a dedicated powder measure. I assume my digital powder scale is OK so long as I replace the plastic powder tray with a metal one. Am making a powder drop.
The only bullets I have on hand are 300 grain coated bullets, which I have been told are not appropriate for black powder. Looking for uncoated bullets, initially for unlubed bullets since I understand that some of the factory lubes can cause fouling with black powder. Am willing to experiment with different bullet weights and loads – considering the short range I don't think I will be shooting the full 70 gr. I have f and ff powder on order. Which raises a question, with reduced loads, do I fill the space between the powder and bullet with wads? What kind should I use? With my smokeless loads I have been using tufts of Dacron polyester fill to hold the powder in the base of the case, but it doesn't compress it at all.
Shooting 30 rounds in a match, am I going to need to do anything too mitigate bore fouling between stages? Suggestions?
Process for cleaning after a match?
I know this may seem to be a lot of really basic stuff but I admit to having absolutely no black powder knowledge or experience.
Appreciate any advice.
Doc.
The original TrapDoor carbine load was 55 grains blackpowder behind the 405 grain lead bullet. The difference from the 70 grains infantry rifle load was taken up by wads.
I would suggest getting Swiss 1,5 Fg blackpowder if possible; it is the cleanest burning type that I know of. "Olde Eynsford" (by Goex?) is a close second.
You could start with 50 grains of blackpowder and work up or down in 5 grain increments from there.
Try Sesame-seeds as a filler between the powder column and the bullet. Sesame-seeds contain up to 50% oils, and might be just the trick to get the amount of lubrication you need with the coated 300 grain bullets. There should be no need for wadding between the powder/sesame-seeds/bullet, but a milk-carton wad acting as a "gas check" under the bullet won't hurt.
With blackpowder the exact powder weight is not as critical as with smokeless. You don't need a special powder dispenser. You can make a scoop out of, say a .30-06 case; cut off the neck so it becomes a straight-wall case, twist a piece of bailing wire into a handle, fastening one end in the extractor groove and making the other end into a 4 inch handle. Might have to secure it to the case with some solder or glue.
Then you just pour blackpowder into a bowl and scoop it up and pour it into your cases. The scoop can be cut down with a hacksaw and filed to the required length for the amount of powder you deem optimal for your use.
At only 50 yards you could even try loading a .457" round ball for percussion revolvers in the .45-70 case... -it will definitely ring steel at that distance.
I believe I've seen pictures of original .45-70 cartridges with roundball loads that were termed "Forager rounds".
Clean-up is easily accomplished with luke-warm water and a little dish-washing detergent added. You can also look for a spray-bottle of "Windex with vinegar" at your local K-Mart / Wal-Mart; it was the preferred blackpowder clean-up medium of the late Mike Venturino. You should also drop the recently fired cases into a plastic jug with soapy water at the range, it will make clean-up easier when you come home.
Consider getting a plastic funnel, fitting about a 6 inch length of hose to it that will fit into the chamber of the TrapDoor carbine; that way you can flush most of the gunk out the muzzle before you start swabbing the bore.
If you are getting lubed bullets you can't go wrong with SPG blackpowder lube.
I fully support everything the good Capt told you.
Lighter loads with greased wads or filler is good, easy on the wallet and the shoulder.
I especially like the .458 or so roundball loads.
These days with powder prices what they are, stretching your powder dollar is only smart
For punching paper or ringing gongs.
Yhs
Prof marbles
70 grains of 2f black powder, under a .030 fiber wad with a 405 grain bullet cast from either 20-1 or 16-1 alloy lubed with a good bp cartridge lube ( my preference is Bullshop Nasa) cases primed with a large rifle primer.
The Captain had good advice. I will add, though, that at 50 yards, most trapdoor loads I have used require at least a 6 o'clock hold to not over shoot the target. At least that has been my experience with sass type targets-6 o'clock will get hits on the upper part of the steel as cas ranges. One option for powder measure is to go somewhere that has muzzle loader supplies and get an adjustable powder measure. Basically it's just a brass tube with an adjustable plug, and markings for the approximate grain weight.
:) Doc ;)
Ah well. NONE of the above. I know your OP inquired of Black Powder, but I'd be directing your attention to APP and/or Shooters World Black. Both are excellent Substitutes, are easy to clean-up and require NO lubricants. That's right, NO lubricants and you can shoot coated bullets all day. The barrel fouling from APP is also not cumulative. Each shot cleans out the previous fouling. Reducing the charge is done with simple fillers (I like Cream-0-Wheat).
I have shot with my close shooting compadre who shot the 45-70 for Planesman. His round was a reduced load and Round Ball. Shot like a laser and rang steel just fine. Just crimp the round ball at its equator and shoot away. Just another option to muddy the waters.
Howdy Doc,
As much as I love black powder, I find myself agreeing with Coffinmaker ( :o ). Since this is the only smokey thing you plan to shoot and at such a short range, APP is so easy to use that it would be a good starting point, and you could always graduate to real BP if you wanted. You can also use your coated bullets.
The little plastic pan on your digital scale is fine for real BP as well. Also, at 50 yards, a couple tenths of a grain (BP or APP) in either direction will make no difference in your results. So whether you use a measure or dippers, don't fret that detail for this simple task. If you get to shooting long range, everything will change. :)
Quote from: Abilene on September 08, 2024, 11:38:35 AMHowdy Doc,
As much as I love black powder, I find myself agreeing with Coffinmaker ( :o ). Since this is the only smokey thing you plan to shoot and at such a short range, APP is so easy to use that it would be a good starting point, and you could always graduate to real BP if you wanted. You can also use your coated bullets.
The little plastic pan on your digital scale is fine for real BP as well. Also, at 50 yards, a couple tenths of a grain (BP or APP) in either direction will make no difference in your results. So whether you use a measure or dippers, don't fret that detail for this simple task. If you get to shooting long range, everything will change. :)
Thanks for the advice Abilene. I have to go to Kerrville Tuesday and I think I saw APP at Gibsons. The true BP shooters badmouth BP substitutes so much that I hadn't considered it. If it is there I qill pick some up and give it a try. Will save me buying sesame seeds in bulk. See you at Shindig.
Thanks to everyone for the advice, A number of options to try.
In the bp loading article on my website I say "substitutes are fun. BP is funner!" It's a good intro to bp. Many cas shooters just stick with it for convenience, and they get the smoke but not the rest of the experience. Each to his own. I just started loading APP in 32-20 for the rifle because that little bore fouls easy. And bore cleanup is quicker and I am lazy. :) seeya Saturday
I will add that APP is different enough from other substitutes like Pyrodex that it really should be evaluated on its own merits.
:) Hair Trigger Jim ;)
May the fleas of a Thousand Camels infest yer armpits ;D ;D (For even mentioning Pyrodex)
Pyrodex is a RUSTING AGENT that just happens to burn. It should be allowed NOWHERE near a firearm EVER!!
Not that I'm opinionated you understand. And I agree. APP should be evaluated on its own merits. Also, many proponents of Black Powder seem to be jaundiced against ANYTHING else. Contrary to some opine (snicker snicker) APP be funner. Also, Shooters World Multi Black is also made by APP and was previously known as "Black MZ."
Have a Ton of Fun you betcha
There are a ton of smokeless powders that do what APP does only better, sans the fake smoke.
So my question has always been why use it in place of smokeless and if you want real gunsmoke, then go with black. 1,2,and 3 f all work quite well in the rifle cases.
Quote from: Ranch 13 on September 09, 2024, 01:04:16 PMThere are a ton of smokeless powders that do what APP does only better, sans the fake smoke.
So my question has always been why use it in place of smokeless and if you want real gunsmoke, then go with black. 1,2,and 3 f all work quite well in the rifle cases.
Do you have any suggestions for smokeless powders that are recommended for use without any bullet lube?
Cast bullets need to be lubed unless they're powder coated
Jacketed bullets don't need lube
Smokeless tha is historically proven with cast and jacketed
Unuque,2400,4227,5744,4198, rl7,3031,4895, and there is wuite the following of shooters that use the surplus powders suck as wc870
The youth load data from higdons using 4895 is quite good for squib type loads
Lyman's reloading handbook or subscription to loaders.com are both valuable assets to a reloaded
I was just referring to the fact that APP does not require any lube with cast bullets, and wondering if you have a smokeless powder that specifically does that.
You can use app without lube but it's going to cost you at some point in accuracy until you do some serious lead Ming and carbon removal
Remember I never said I wasn't familiar with it , but I did say I don't see the point
And a quick check on apps website says that using a load that is compressed 1/16 in cartridges is suggested
They'll also go on to explain that best results are from using bullets lubed with smokeless lube
Thaw part that really makes a person wonder why is the having to clean the cases immediately after shooting to keep the residue from attacking the brass. I experienced that part 20 years ago
So it still comes down to other than the billowing clouds of fake smoke what's the point
Hi Ranch. While I do prefer black powder for a variety of reasons, I occasionally use APP for convenience. But when you ask What's the point? I guess I can think of a few.
1. You said "other than" the clouds of smoke - well, that right there is a pretty good reason.
2. People don't have to mess with special lubes or find bullets that hold enough lube. They can even use any of the coated bullets that are so popular now. That is a big reason for many.
3. There is a little bit of boom, not as much as BP, but more than smokeless.
4. Cleanup is about the same as BP, but there seems to be less fouling in the bore.
5. Some could care less about historical accuracy, they just want to compete in a BP category, and APP is just easier.
So, to paraphrase myself, the point is fun. Just not as much fun as black.
I'll say one pet peeve is people saying they are shooting black powder when they are shooting a sub. I say no, you may be shooting in a BP or Frontier Cartridge Category but you are not shooting BP. It's a small peeve. :)
Bullet selection is pretty easy, the current iteration of the Lyman bullets work well, as do the RCBS, and some of the Saeco's, if a person doesn't want to go the custom/semi custom route from Buffalo Arms, Brooks etc.
Bullet lubes such as bullshop Nasa, SPG and their new tropical, and DGL all work well with either black or smokeless.
Clean up is as simple as 3-4 breaths each down the muzzle and the breach, run a dry patch. Follow with a couple of wet patches, plain water works, but napa cutting oil and water mixed 1 n 10 works better. follow with a dry patch. Patch wet with a good solvent like Montana extremes Cowboy blend. with no signs of further lead mining needed , dry patch and oil patch. All in all done. Except for case cleaning
Excessive fouling with real black is a sign of not enough powder.
Quote from: Ranch 13 on September 09, 2024, 01:04:16 PMThere are a ton of smokeless powders that do what APP does only better, sans the fake smoke.
So my question has always been why use it in place of smokeless and if you want real gunsmoke, then go with black. 1,2,and 3 f all work quite well in the rifle cases.
My point is that I am trying to safely shoot my 1878 vintage trapdoor carbine and looking for the path of least resistance. I have been shooting it with coated 300gr bullets and 8.5 grins of Unique (no lube). Have decided it would be safer to shoot something other than smokeless, but have no experience with BP. It was pointed out that I continue to use the 300gr coated bullets I have on hand if I switched to APP, and would not have to invest in a lot of BP specific gear or supplies. Seems pretty reasonable to me.
8.5 grains with that 300 grain bullet is pretty light jump up to 10 or 12 grains will help
Switching to app you'll need to invest in case cleaning apparatus and dry racks etc as it does attack the brass
Going with straight black you won't need much of anything extra and it is surprising how well the coated bullets work with black
But in all seriousness going with a slower burn powder and staying with the trapdoor loads your rifle will be fine with the bullets you have
Quote from: Ranch 13 on September 09, 2024, 07:58:47 PM8.5 grains with that 300 grain bullet is pretty light jump up to 10 or 12 grains will help
Switching to app you'll need to invest in case cleaning apparatus and dry racks etc as it does attack the brass
Going with straight black you won't need much of anything extra and it is surprising how well the coated bullets work with black
But in all seriousness going with a slower burn powder and staying with the trapdoor loads your rifle will be fine with the bullets you have
11.5gr of Unique is what I was using in my H&R and Pedersoli trapdoors. At the lowest sight setting I had to aim at the bottom edge of the targets. With the same load in my rifle length Sharps I had to aim several inches below the target.
Which "slower burning" powder do you recommend. My go-to rifle powder right now is IMR 3031, in part because it is the easiest to find right now. I use 4895 in 8mm Mauser for BAMM and 4198 (which I am almost out of) for 30-06 Garand loads.
What case cleaning is needed with APP? With smokeless my brass just gets 12 hours in the tumbler with walnut media and about once every 2-3 months I add some Brasso to the media.
You are suggesting I could shoot the coated bullets with Goex f or ff without additional lube?
Quote from: Doc Holloman on September 08, 2024, 07:13:26 PMThanks for the advice Abilene. I have to go to Kerrville Tuesday and I think I saw APP at Gibsons. The true BP shooters badmouth BP substitutes so much that I hadn't considered it. If it is there I qill pick some up and give it a try. Will save me buying sesame seeds in bulk. See you at Shindig.
Thanks to everyone for the advice, A number of options to try.
No joy on APP locally. All I have found is Triple 7 and that powder that shall not be named. I will see is someone I know going to Land Run might be able to pick up a a can or two for me (would you recommend f or ff?). ISTR that Scarlett Darlin distributes it. I know it can be ordered but I don't want to buy a case on an experiment.
I think APP only comes in FFg and FFFg. I might guess FFg for big bore but I have no experience with that. At these distances it won't matter much. FFg is chunky and doesn't meter well through most measures and needs to be dipped.
As for brass, I clean just like BP. Rinse it with anything that has water in it, to stop corrosion. Than tumble it at your convenience.
If you look on Apps web it describes the cleaning and it's the same as with bp
Your probably going to have to push that 200 gr bullet to 1600 or so to get it even close to the sights
Keeping in mind the sights on that rifle are regulated for a 405 gr bullet at 13-1400 fps
Yes you could fire a few of the coated bullets with a full charge of bp
>:( Ranch 13 >:(
I must strongly disagree. I will admit, I have only been the Poster Boy for APP for about 10 Years, But there is absolutely no "special" treatment needed for brass use with APP. I don't even bother to "bottle" it at the range. Take it home, dump in some water cut with 45% White Vinegar for about 20 minutes, rinse and dry. DONE. If you desire, after drying give the brass a little polish. I use a DILLON with lizard litter for about 45 minutes.
Another disagree. You will not get a harmonious result shooting coated bullets with Black Powder. The fouling will be horrendous. Black Powder REQUIRES a BP compatible lube (lots of it). One can (quite successfully) run coated bullets with APP, which doesn't require ANY lube.
FORGOT: PLUS ONE for Abilene. APP is available in two granulations. 2F and 3F. 2F has large coarse grains and DOES NOT meter well thru powder measures. Should be dipped. 3f meters just fine thru progressive powder measures. Shooters World Multi Black should also meter well.
So you do treat those app fired cases just like we do bp cartridges ,take them home deprime and clean them.
You can fire the coated bullets with black. It is true that better results are there with lubed cast bullets, but as this isn't shooting for X ring count in a 1015 rounds for score at distance it will work
Quote from: Abilene on September 11, 2024, 01:36:54 PMI think APP only comes in FFg and FFFg. I might guess FFg for big bore but I have no experience with that. At these distances it won't matter much. FFg is chunky and doesn't meter well through most measures and needs to be dipped.
As for brass, I clean just like BP. Rinse it with anything that has water in it, to stop corrosion. Than tumble it at your convenience.
Abilene: Do I need to do anything beyond tumbling to cases that I have previously used with smokeless (Unique) before loading them with Black or APP?
Quote from: Doc Holloman on October 19, 2024, 10:43:54 AMDo I need to do anything beyond tumbling to cases that I have previously used with smokeless (Unique) before loading them with Black or APP?
Apply fresh primer after resizing and belling.
Yeah, don't forget a new primer. ;D
Quote from: Abilene on October 20, 2024, 09:07:50 AMYeah, don't forget a new primer. ;D
yeah, yeah.
So, I can assume whatever smokeless powder residue is left in the brass is a non-issue.
Had someone pick up a couple of cans of APP for me at Land Run, so we shall see what happens.
Thanks to everyone for the advice and for tolerating my newbie quesions.
Just an update for those who commented: 20 grains of APP gave with enough filler to touch the base of the 300gr coated bullet, gave me 775fps (+/- 10 fps) from my antique trapdoor carbine, which I figure is a safe load. Aiming at the top of the target with the rear sight bottomed out, it consistently rings steel at 50 yards.
I worked up the load using my modern H&R trapdoor carbine. I started with the .45/70 case half full volume-wise -- which was 33.5 grains. That gave me 1150fps, about the same as 11gr of Unique.
By the way, I was using the Garmin Chronograph. If you haven't tried one -- they are really cool.
OOOFF! Them Garmins is spencive.
Quote from: King Medallion on December 28, 2024, 11:26:59 AMOOOFF! Them Garmins is spencive.
Yep, basically like buying another gun.
Many moons ago my dad brought his first trapdoor rifle for a visit. He didn't care much for my buffalo silhouette loads. So, I took some primed 45/70 brass to the range & loaded them at the bench using my 44 percussion revolver kit items: 30 grains from the flask went into the case, then a lubed 410 shot shell felt was & then a .454 cast ball. Pressed it tight against the powder. Perfect plinking rounds for 50 yds targets. Trapdoor sights aren't made for such close distance - with any load- just have to deal with it. Real black or a sub will matter very little. Light load = less fouling...but if it becomes a concern use a lubed wad. The .454 RB was a light press fit into the case, but take care as rough handling could result in your ball falling out & hitting the ground - from personal experience, I do not recommend.
Regards,
Slim