I have been shooting open tops for the last few years (I have 6, pairs in 3 calibers) so I have forsaken Top breaks. Well, I work part time in a local gun shop, and guess what came in? A Uberti No. 3, 1st Model "American" 5" top break in .44 Spcl/Russian! It had been back ordered several years ago, apparently, but there is no longer any record of who ordered it, nor was there a deposit paid. Boss knew I like cowboy guns, and offered it to me, to work off with shifts! I said "hell yes!". I put it on layaway, but had to leave town on a family emergency that evening. I am SO excited! Pics when I get back home.
You'd better hope it wasn't ordered for somebody that frequents CASCity and sees this. ;D
Those guns are cool, but don't fit my hand at all. You may know, the reason Cimarron kept after Uberti to make the American is because Mike Harvey owns Texas Jack Omohundro's American.
They must have gotten a shipment in. Gunbroker is full of them.
I like that it is in .44 Spcl/Russian. I already load and shoot .44 Colt in my Anderson 1860 first model Richards conversions I 44 Colt. I'll pair the American with one of them for main match pistols.
Back from my last minute trip back east. I work tomorrow. I'll take pics. I'll do a Cowboy Chronicle article on it too.
Checked mine, and it is marked "44 Russian" the under it "Smith & Wesson Special". I checked, and it chambers .44 Special brass. I checked ejection with my .44 Colt brass, and it ejected fine, despite its smaller rims. Good news, as I will pair it with one of my Anderson 1860 .44 Colt only conversions. It fits my Oklahome Leather California Slim Jim holster perfectly. Too busy to take pics.
The American is going to look Hella-Cool with my 1860 Henry! IT will be a little weird shooting 44 Colt from a .44 Russian, but I have over 800 rounds of brass, with 550 of that already being loaded. as my main match pistols have been a pair of Anderson (pre-American Frontier Firearms) .44 Colt (only) conversions. Maybe the lawman bought the 1st Model American and bored the cylinders and had an enterprising frontier gunsmith hog out the .430" bore to .451" so he could use the same ammo with his .44 Colt 1860 conversion.
The .44 Russian OAL was only a little over .07 shorter that .44 Colt, so a straight bore .44 Russian cylinder would work. The .44 American was only .05" shorter than the Colt, so the American/1st Model Russian cylinder would be long enough.
Quote from: Abilene on March 02, 2024, 09:33:38 PM
You'd better hope it wasn't ordered for somebody that frequents CASCity and sees this. ;D
Those guns are cool, but don't fit my hand at all. You may know, the reason Cimarron kept after Uberti to make the American is because Mike Harvey owns Texas Jack Omohundro's American.
I had actually heard that he did. I know he has/had quite the collection. Wyatt Earp actually used an 8" .44 S&W American in the gunfight at the OK Corral. I, for one, am glad he pestered them. To me, the American/1st Model Russian was the coolest of the S&W Break tops. I have had Schofields in the past, but I hate the sighting system on the Schofields. They were cool, and fit my hand, but I never shot them well because of the sights. The American is pretty straight forward and distinct (if a bit small!)
Now I need to get a 44 American ammo box... There is a seller on ebay GC1876 that makes exact replicas. I have some of his .44 Colt and .44 Henry boxes. REALLY nice. He has a 44 American box and I have asked him if he can size it for .44 Colt/Russian. (44 American used a small case and heeled bullet, basically the same as a shortened .41 Mag case. I have three or four original .44 Americans in my cartridge collection I can use in the photo shoot for the Cowboy Chronicle article.
May go with a .44 Russian ammo box for the article instead of .44 American. Only found three .44 Americans in my ammo collection (I have about 20+ .44 Colts, though). Besides, I have a feeling I am going to end up with an 8" one so I have a pair. If that's the case, I'll load Bear Creek 246 grain slugs in .44 Russian cases.
Quote from: Tuolumne Lawman on March 10, 2024, 09:50:53 PM
May go with a .44 Russian ammo box for the article instead of .44 American. Only found three .44 Americans in my ammo collection (I have about 20+ .44 Colts, though). Besides, I have a feeling I am going to end up with an 8" one so I have a pair. If that's the case, I'll load Bear Creek 246 grain slugs in .44 Russian cases.
I have a few dozen .44 American cartridges. They're Rem-UMC black powder rounds from a falling-apart box. I might be able to send a couple your way (especially if a .44 Colt or two could wander my way eventually, as I don't have any of those). PM or email me if interested.
Here you go:
Thanks for the label. I tweaked it a bit, and sized it to fit on Cheyenne Pioneer Cartridge box 44 Russian boxes. The orignals were cool "as is", but the new ones have a stupid picture embedded in the label
(https://i.imgur.com/oGmu8vY.jpg)
I also ordered two really cool reproduction of orignals from GC1876 on ebay.. Exact reproductions. I have his .44 Colt and .44 henry boxes, too. At $15 each, not cheap but worth every penny.
(https://i.imgur.com/Iy9ihgF.jpg)
Cimarron called me yesterday and told me my Author T&E sample 8" No. 3 American in .44 will be at the gun shop today. Because of our draconian laws in Commiefornia (one handgun every 30 days), I can't start my 10 day jail DROS hold until the 26th. But, then I will have my matched pair: one 5" and one 8". I'm like Ralphie in "A Christmas Story" waiting for his Red Ryder BB Gun.
(https://i.imgur.com/G4EQGF9.jpg)
Argh!!!!!!! They sent the wrong revolver! They sent it in 44 WCF (44-40)! That is useless to me. Emailed them to see if they will make it right.
44 WCF 8" headed back to Cimarron, .44 Russian headed my way....
Some folks are just plain picky! ;)
Funny thing is, I did not expect to have a No. 3 American drop into my life, literally. I had been working on a stand alone historical article for the Chronicle on the S&W American. Then the planets aligned and I have modified it into part one of a two part article on the Cimarron No. 3 American. Part one (the history), will possibly be in the July 2024 Chronicle. Part Two, Mike's efforts and a review of the revolver, should be in October 2024.
I'll do testing with several loads: Black Hills .44 Russian, some factory .44 Colt, some standard 246 grain .44 Special, and my original 44 Russian factory duplication load of 5.3 grains of Unique under a Bear Creek 246 conical .44 Russian .429 bullet.
I have 1000 246 RN .430" slugs, 750 rounds of .44 Russian brass, and dies. I have loaded 300 of these into .44 Russian factory duplication load (5.3 grains Unique), and plan on loading up another 250 or so. That will give me enough for a couple annual matches, a couple local matches, and a range session for the Chronicle article. I also have 500 .44 Colt loded for my 1860 conversions, that I can also shoot in the Cimarron No. 3 1st Models.
The correct 8" No.3 1st Model in .44 Russian/Special, showed up at the shop today. Start my 10 day Commiefornia gun jail tomorrow. Wow, its beautiful!
Picked up my 8" First Model American today! Both the 5" and 8" fit nicely in Oklahoma Leather California Slim Jims. I have cross draw for the 8" and strong side for the 5'. The 8" is WAYYYY to long for strong side draw! Pics to come shortly. Shooting a local match with them on the 20th.
(https://i.imgur.com/oaIhj2e.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RmJxUGF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZQWKfih.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/EwU5uS7.jpg)
Very nice! But put some cartridges in those loops. ;D
Rather than the typical 200 grain flat point CAS .44 Russian loads, I used Bear Creek's 246 grain, conical round nose .44 Russian/Special bullet over 5.3 grains of Unique. That is listed in Lymann as a factory duplication load. That should smack the plates with authority.
Quote from: Tuolumne Lawman on April 11, 2024, 08:28:32 PM
Rather than the typical 200 grain flat point CAS .44 Russian loads, I used Bear Creek's 246 grain, conical round nose .44 Russian/Special bullet over 5.3 grains of Unique. That is listed in Lymann as a factory duplication load. That should smack the plates with authority.
When I shot in NCOWS I used the Lyman 429251 bullet with BP for my 44 Russians in the '72 OP. Did that only because I never could put my hands on the Lyman 429184 bullet mold listed as the 'regular' 44 Russian bullet.
Have fun with those revolvers. I will own one someday, just not this soon.
Going to a local matcg Saturday to try them out. Can't wait!
Absolutely wonderful revolvers! Shot pretty much dead on with 246 grain .44 Russian factory duplication loads (5.3 grains of Unique). Never dropped a shot. Next is the annual match at Railroad Flat in the end of May. Thats a 12 stage match with side matches. That will wring them out thoroughly for part two of the article.
AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH! Had to cancel going to my annual match, as my wife wasill and the kids came to see her this weekend. I'll go to a 6 stage local match on the 8th to wring them out a bit more
Used the pair at a local match. They performed wonderfully. BUT, I still prefer my Anderson 1860 Conversions in .44 Colt! I can't afford really afford to keep both Americans, so the 5" has a new home. I may keep the 8" as a back-up to my 44 Colt conversions. It will shoot the 44 Colt ammo, so I don't have to bring two pistol calibers to a match. I may even use the American and one 1860 conversion , using the other 1860 as back up. While I can't totally go away from the Conversions, one American and one 1860 wold be a slick combo!
After prolonged evaluation, I have decided to keep the 8" American, and I sold the 5 inch. I am using the 8" American and one Anderson .44 Colt 1860 Conversion as my main match pair. My second 1860 conversion as back up. I really do love the 8".
Howdy T.L. it took a while before I was able to get home to my printed copy of the Chronicle and read part 1 of the article. Very much enjoyed it and looking forward to part 2. Thank you, sir! :)
THANKS, thats the pared down version! I could have had 5 or 6 more pages of No. 3 lore!
Quote from: Tuolumne Lawman on August 29, 2024, 11:04:47 PMAfter prolonged evaluation, I have decided to keep the 8" American, and I sold the 5 inch. I am using the 8" American and one Anderson .44 Colt 1860 Conversion as my main match pair. My second 1860 conversion as back up. I really do love the 8".
I don't have an American, I suspect the grip might not work with my Med. Hands.
I would like to try one thought.
I do have a New Model #3 from Uberti and the original 2nd Model Russian you sold me.
The bump, or Knob in the grips suits me fine
I can't tell you how much I love my 8" American (the 5" just didn't grab me)! After the initial adjustment of the first two range session, I think it is the absolute coolest SASS pistol I have ever had. Paired with one of my Anderson 1860 .44 Colts, I use my .44 Colt loads in both (Russian won't fit in my Andersons, which were made for .44 Colt BHA). The American and the 1860 conversion are perfect with my 1860 Henry. The well equipped 1870 lawman in the California Gold fields.
My .44 Colt loads just became my .44 S&W American loads, since if you read my research post, the .44 S&W was sometimes used in the .44 Colt conversions. I got 4 replica 3 piece .44 S&W American boxes from GC1876 on eBay, and over-labled my Cheyenne c.44 Russian boxes with .44 S&W labels.
(https://i.imgur.com/C5SluHh.jpg)
Well pards, I'm turning 73, and its been a 30 ride in SASS/CAS, but I have decided to retire from writing for the Chronicle, and from shooting matches, except an occasional annual match. Hanging onto my Henry and 1860 Richards, but just listed the 8" American model on gunbroker, along with its holster and 4 replica 3 piece .44 American ammo boxes. Love to see someone here get it.
In fact, I have cut way back on all shooting, and have sold off all but about a dozen and a half of what was many times larger collection!
Well dang, TL, I hope your health is holding up. I'm 72 and shoot every weekend, but I'm counting my blessings for being able to. Something tells me you will miss it too much and come back, but regardless, I hope you enjoy whatever fills your "retirement" time. I've gotten a good education from your articles, thank you for those.
I still reload and shoot, but I shy away from the travels I used to do....
I too decided to retire from shooting matches when I passed the 73-mile mark awhile back.
Thanks, TL, for GB link :)
I plan on keeping my double, my HRA 1860 Henry, and my two Anderson 1860 conversions so I can shoot a match if I do feel like it. My wife has some health issues, so we are concentrating on spending more time together traveling our bucket list. I do have an old, beat up .45 Colt Dakota for a back up gun, if one of my conversions go down.
TL, I too, am saddened by your decision to retire from writing, as I have enjoyed your views. Best of wishes to you.
:) Oh Poo TL ;)
I just turned 77 this past October whilst on Mouse Safari. I hope to shoot at least three more seasons. I celebrated this birthday with a brandy Knew Hammer Double Shotgun. Looking forward to this upcoming "season."
Blue Skies and Fair Winds Compadre
You will be missed. I understand you retirement from writing and cutting back on shooting. I turned 78 last August and have had some health issues, so my shooting career may be on the way out. I wish you good times on your travel bucket list.
Wow, someone in Sturgis SD bought the American. I hope he is SASS/CAS.
Quote from: Tuolumne Lawman on December 26, 2024, 10:20:55 AMWow, someone in Sturgis SD bought the American. I hope he is SASS/CAS.
I figured it wouldn't last long, quite desirable piece.
If'n I'd had the spare duckets, it could have winged its way to Florida.
Alas, planets were not aligned... ::)
Quote from: Tuolumne Lawman on December 26, 2024, 10:20:55 AMWow, someone in Sturgis SD bought the American. I hope he is SASS/CAS.
That explains why I couldn't find it when searching current auctions on GunBroker this morning! Found it now. Good deal for all.
Wow, TL, sorry to hear of your retirement! I sympathize with your decision. Personally, I haven't shot any matches since the pandemic, and then the weather in Eastern Colorado has gone bananas, too hot or too cold. Then, I came down with arthritis in my right shoulder about six months ago, and now have a hernia that I'm having trouble finding a surgeon who specializing in that sort that can get to it in less than a few weeks. At 82, I guess it's time to hang up my guns. :( I'll still hang around the electronic campfire, however.
All my best to you, TL! Have a Happy and Healthy New Year!
An update and comment on an article in American Handgunner about the S&W 2000. One thing comparing the original Schofield with the 2000. While I can NOT document it, I believe that the reason the originals had the shortened cylinder that would not take the .45 Colt cartridge was the fact that the iron (not steel) prototype Schofields would not take the original 40 gr. powder charge of the Army round. In point of fact, the first Colt's SAA's had iron cylinders and a number of them blew up! Colt's then switched to steel cylinders, and the Army reduced the load to 35 gr. of powder behind the 255 gr. bullet. Later the charge was reduced to 28 gr of BP.
S&W shortened the Schofield cylinder and lengthened the rear end of the barrel to meet the front of the shortened cylinder. They left the frame to original length, with about a 0.10" gap between the frame and the cylinder. When S&W brought out the 2000, Roy Jinks claimed they use one of his originals as a pattern and made the new version identical to the original. (I discussed this with him at the 2000 Shot Show, but didn't argue with him about it. However, the 2000 not only had the cylinder shortened to accept the .45 Schofield (aka .45 Revolver Ball), but also shortened the frame so that a longer cylinder that could take the .45 Colt could not be installed. I believe S&W was afraid people would do just that, which some of the Italian outfits that made their clones with the long cylinder did. With modern steel, and advice to not attempt to overload the Italian models, these did okay. The frames of these Italian guns are the same as the original length. Just the cylinders are longer. Just sayin'...
Oh, BTW, got the hernia fixes in January. Still haven't done any more shooting, although the shoulder isn't bothering me as much.
Ride easy, Pards!
Trailrider
TL, we have bit of history trading, buying and selling.
You bought the "Peck" Blue and the Grey Spencer do you recall ?
And I bought your original S&W 2nd Mod. Russian and all the reloading brass Etc. which I still have.
As to retirement, I'd only read your instalments in the Chronical.
Now, I have no real reason to seek it out :-\
I haven't shot a match since before covid myself. and now just shoot
mostly my milsurps and CCW out back in the pasture, and on occasion the county range.
Trailrider, I greatly respect ya, but some old stories just won't die.
Why are the 45 Colt and the 45 S&W the way they are? Why are most things the way they are: Money.
The original 45 Colt powder charge was 30 grains, and that is the only charge ever loaded by Frankford arsenal. That amount of powder filled the case beneath the bullet, that seems to be the criteria at the time. It is often forgotten that those early cases were inside primed, with a copper cup inserted into the case to hold the priming compound, giving an internal volume surprisingly close to a modern W-W case.
The 1st prototype was chambered in 44 Russian, soon changed to 44 American. In late May, 1873, the Army sent a request to Colt for a 45 caliber cartridge. The first 45 Colt cartridge was fired on June 7th 1873. Yes, the 45 Colt was developed over the span of a couple of weeks. It was a 1.285 case with a 250 grain bullet over 30 grains powder. Colt seemed to have simply designed the case to fit the cylinder.
All Prototypes (there were only 3) survived initial testing and 2 are still in existence, with the other still known in the 1890s. The Frames were Iron prior to 1880.
Soon after its introduction, commercial manufacturers began upping the powder charge, because then as now, power sells. 35 to 38 to 40 grains, with the 40 grain charge 1st documented in 1880. Also, these were outside primed "Balloon head" cases that had more volume than the early inside primed cases. That 40 grain charge was loaded well into the 1930s, with no reports of blown up guns.
S&W cylinders were the length they were because that was the length they were tooled up to make. Selling 10s of thousands of guns to the russians they were not interested in changing that tooling. As well the long small rimmed Colt case did not lend itself well to their extractors. Easier to talk the army into taking a cartridge using less copper, less powder and less lead (The country was in the middle of a financial panic). That a 230 grain bullet in the low 800s fps turned out to be a dandy combat load was a happy accident.
(C. Kenneth Moores "Colt Single Action Army Revolver Study: New Discoveries")