Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => 1860 Henry => Topic started by: Fox Creek Kid on April 20, 2023, 08:45:10 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDuoj7KR-CA&t=73s
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Wow i'm always careful to let mine down slowly because of the warnings, but i never believed that the rounds would really detonate. But i see now that it can happen. Glad he is ok.
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A big THANK YOU, to Ian for sharing his experience, and Fox Creek Kid for sharing the video! I'm sure every Henry shooter has heard stories of magazine detonations, but this is firsthand. I'm always a bit nervous watching someone with a Henry at the loading table until they demonstrate the correct loading procedure. Even then it is probably a good idea to turn away from the open magazine tube while the follower is being lowered, even if they know what they are doing it could be possible for them to lose control of the follower. As Ian stated, it probably made a difference in his case that the tube was only partially loaded, but why take the chance. Knowing what to do in an emergency before there is one is sage advice also!
B.N. Scotty
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Had a similar event happen at a nice club where I shot a match in Glen Rose Tx. As I was new to them they were going to put me in the new shooter class they held but I had just shot either the NE Regional or NC state match they didn’t need to. However one of the new shooters that day did what Ian did with his henry and wound up going to the hospital in the ambulance. AFAIK it was minor injuries.
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Never been present at one, but I've heard of several first hand reports of Uberti Henry detonations over the years. Some years back Uberti added a small rubber pad to the follower to help mitigate this. Mike Harvey told me there hadn't been any detonations after that. On one of the detonation reports I asked the owner if his had that pad - it did!
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I have shot my Henry for about 20 years and I am still extremely cautious. I inspect every round before I go to a shoot, making sure no high primers, even on (or especially) factory ammo, mainly because I inspect my reloads twice during loading and then the 3rd before I go. Then load the Henry flat, just sliding the rounds in, have heard of people dropping them in and that scares the bejeezus out of me. Then gingerly lower the follower. I am a firm believer to do anything but would be an expression of how little I care for my fellow shooters. Endanger yourself all you want, but no right to endanger others. Never seen it happen, have heard about it and I use each instance heard to remind myself the extra time is still needed. All worth it to handle a Henry.
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:) Hey Guys ;)
I've personally seen 3 different Magazine Detonations. Two were Henry rifles and one was an 1866. Both Henry rifles had the swell Little Baby Buggy Bumper in the follower.
At that time, I developed "Stick, Mark 1, A1" for the Henry. Sent sample examples to several known Henry shooters. I used a commonly available dowel and epoxied cut down 45 Schofield cases on each end, with a cut down brass screw to act as a guide in the open channel and to act as a stop to keep "Stick" out of the Carrier Block. One simply added "Stick" to the cartridge stack. Follower only moved a half inch. Added benefit was to grip the rifle further out. Added added Benefit was when I started shooting C45S cases. 10 C45S left a huge gap so made "Stick, Mark 1, A1" even longer. Grip the barrel even further out.
Those Magazine Detonations were rather nasty. Lets be Safe Out There
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I would be nice if Starline or others would make .44/45 brass that utilized small pistol primers. The smaller diameter would lessen the chance of a bullet nose causing a detonation. Many old original cartridges did have the small primer pocket.
kw
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I was present, but not an eyewitness to a such an occurrence.
Different posse' loading table, the injured were the loader's hand and the spotter's mid-section.
Both men were transported to the hospital.
The spotter's belly wound required a procedure to remove the piece of brass shrapnel, imbedded a
1/2 inch into the fat layer.
The shooters hand suffered 2nd & 3rd degree burns.
The Henry was bulged somewhat @ the midsection of the magazine but was later repaired.
ALL three continued shooting SASS, the Belly wound for many years ,he was also a local LGS popular with the SASS crowd.
the hand injury, was active about another year or so...
and the gun was sold and is now safe queen at another friends, and on occasion used just as a plinker
in his back pasture range.
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So, question for all of you knowledgeable folks... Provided that one exercises all due caution (that is, gently slide cartridges down the magazine, gently close the follower) have any of you witnessed a magazine detonation? ???
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:) Matt45 ;)
No. And it matters not if the Rifle is a Henry, an 1873 or an 1866. There is insufficient recoil to start a magazine detonation. This does presume, the shooter exercises due care and attention when loading the Henry. Do NOT lose control of the Follower. Do make a spacer.
DO NOT forget and load on top of the spacer. Embarrassing (Don't ask how I know this little FACT) ::)
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:) Matt45 ;)
No. And it matters not if the Rifle is a Henry, an 1873 or an 1866. There is insufficient recoil to start a magazine detonation...
I have heard of round or dome nose bullet magazine detonations in rifles, but I think rather than recoil with pistol caliber rounds, it is more likely to be the bullets slamming against each other under spring pressure every time the rifle is levered and the rounds have to jump about 1.5"
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I would be nice if Starline or others would make .44/45 brass that utilized small pistol primers. The smaller diameter would lessen the chance of a bullet nose causing a detonation. Many old original cartridges did have the small primer pocket.
kw
I would hate that, just like I hate small primer 45acp. You get one of them mixed in with your brass and jams you up on the reloading press. It is such a rare occurrence that I doubt they would ever make it for that reason.
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The Henry does not come in .45 acp. Beyond that if one did have small primer brass, and was really concerned about a detonation, it would behoove you to keep your brass separated and pay attention to your reloading technique. All steps driven by safety.
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The Henry does not come in .45 acp. Beyond that if one did have small primer brass, and was really concerned about a detonation, it would behoove you to keep your brass separated and pay attention to your reloading technique. All steps driven by safety.
I'm talking about someone else's small primer rifle or 1911 brass getting picked up with your brass at the range, which happens all the time. Especially 1911 brass as it gets thrown all over. Not many people inspect the bottom of every piece of brass before reloading unless they are the type that will only reload one headstamp, and for CAS those folks are in the minority. Right now small primer ACP brass is somewhat rare so people aren't used to looking for that odd piece in their picked up brass. I've said before that if a shooter at a Wild Bunch match is shooting small primer ACP then he should announce that to the group ahead of time so they will know to look for it in the brass that gets picked up for them, and he might get more of his back, too, as a side affect, because nobody else wants it.
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Thanks, gentlemen :D
As to the small primer 45 ACP, I've got a bunch of it (started out as 45 blazer from CCI). As noted, one needs to separate it out, but it loads OK-just a PIA.
What I find interesting is that the pre WW1 stuff has a slightly different size pocket, or at least all of the stuff I have found over the years.
But back to the original topic, it is good to know that as long as we keep our headspace and timing right in the brain, one each, we can fire the Henry with no problems ;D
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well, HSM ammo makes small primer 45lc. I almost bought a box but read closely and was surprised. luckily cabelas had large primer herters 45lc.
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When I joined SASS late'95 into '96 there had been warnings about letting the follower go and detonations while loading the Henry in the SASS Chronicle. The procedure was to hold the rifle close to the horizontal and ease the follower down on the cartridges. One match I had the loading table, watched the guy load it properly,,, he had control of the follower and while he had the rifle in the verticle, I was standing in front of the magazine slot. I said hmmmm,,, let me turn to the s-i "BAM" d-e. Everything came to a screeching halt. We unpuckerer, he was still holding the follower in his hand. It was determined it was probably a high/sensitive primer.. We were shooting in the country on a guys property, went to his workshop had the magazine squared away in two stages. Someone asked what was that on my sleeve, on my left bicep was a .50 cent size spot of blood , took my shirt off and either a piece of brass or lead had hit me. It was checked, it was ok. Still got a SASS "hickie" on my arm. Got an Iron Frame Henry in 44-40 about 8 months later, still shoot it every now and then.
My Henry war story,
Isom
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A little gimmick I've shown/taught is to use the opposite hand as a "safety" to make sure the follower cannot "get away" when loading a Henry.
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Watching the video, you can clearly see the rubber pad in the follower of Ians Henry. Just goes to show, procedures are important, stuff happens.
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:) Drydock ;)
Entirely too true. Fecal Matter is known to Propagate. Murphy says things WILL go wrong and at the worst possible time. Also completely true.
That little rubber baby buggy bumper in the end of the Henry follower actually does nada to affect momentum. Physics is Physics. The impact of the follower has the same Jules of energy regardless of the little rubber bumper. Atz why, rather than relying on the little bumper, I used Stick, Mark 1, A1 on top of the cartridge stack. Only allowed the follower to move half an inch.
Let us Play Safe Out There
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I'll point out one of my Henry's (2008 CC) had the orange rubber baby buggy bumper.
My earlier 99 [BM] date code did not.
The orange rubber was hard, more like plastic and it was somewhat disintegrated,
I don't know if cleaning solvents changed the properties of the material or if it was simply hard material to begin with.
In my opinion the (RBBB) Rubber Baby Bumper is a false safety accessory, maybe added to appease the corporate lawyers.
The best safety loading procedure with the Henry is the slight angle slide in load approach, and a hand covering the follower and eased down gently.
DO NOT drop load from a vertical hold, I see that done on many u-Tube videos :o
I'll ad the problem is less apparent "if" you fully load the magazine.
loading less that a full magazine allows the follower a longer distance to strike the rounds and build kinetic energy. That is where the A1 stick spacer Coffinmaker mentions' would be handy.
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Had to go look. My 1996 Brass frame Military Henry does not have the rubber insert. Good.
2 rules of the Henry: Always load horizontal. Always control the follower.
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Rule number 3 - Get a picture of Coffinmakers "Stick, Mark 1, A1, and copy it.
(grins and giggles)
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My little orange bumper has kind of disintegrated. I was wondering if they have replacements and i haven't really looked into taking that part of my gun apart yet.
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I took mine out, its useless anyway.
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Well heck then i can do that. ;)
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Can't use the Stick, Henry-Mark 1{Mod 1}, I need full capacity for GAF usage.
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Full capacity will be much better, the short travel of the follower can't build the energy.
Its the long snap of a partial magazine load that is the problem.
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I’m going to copy coffinmakers stick… once my 1860 conversion is ready to go
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:) Frisco ;)
If need be, lemmie know and I'll send ya a Tintype of "Stick, Mark 1, A1" via your e mail. I have never been able to successfully post here on CAS City. I do have a trusted ally who has been gracious enough to post for me in the past though.
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I've personally seen 3 different Magazine Detonations. Two were Henry rifles and one was an 1866.
I'd like to hear more about that '66, please.
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:) KWK ;)
Happy to oblige. The '66 in question was a Uberti (naturally) Sporting Rifle in 38 special. The Happy owner/shooter was utilizing IIRC, factory loaded, round nose Plus P 38s. About half way thru the second stage, there was a nasty KABAM and ventilation suddenly appeared in the magazine tube just beyond the fore arm.
When we took it apart, we discovered Three rounds had detonated. It is unknown if it was the result of a stuck follower suddenly releasing or from recoil. There was no damage to the action parts or frame and I took the rifle in for repair. I also had a somewhat spirited conversation with the owner about round nose bullets in tubular rifle magazines.
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:) KWK ;)
Happy to oblige. The '66 in question was a Uberti (naturally) Sporting Rifle in 38 special. The Happy owner/shooter was utilizing IIRC, factory loaded, round nose Plus P 38s. About half way thru the second stage, there was a nasty KABAM and ventilation suddenly appeared in the magazine tube just beyond the fore arm.
When we took it apart, we discovered Three rounds had detonated. It is unknown if it was the result of a stuck follower suddenly releasing or from recoil. There was no damage to the action parts or frame and I took the rifle in for repair. I also had a somewhat spirited conversation with the owner about round nose bullets in tubular rifle magazines.
I think I'd have also had a conversation with the owner about using +P ammo. I didn't even know any manufacturers made +P .38's with lead bullets.
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I think I'd have also had a conversation with the owner about using +P ammo.
SAAMI +P 38s may not be a problem. Italy uses CIP pressure standards and will proof to that. For the 38, CIP pressures are above SAAMI +P.