Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Powder Room - CAS reloading => Topic started by: Professor Marvel on October 05, 2020, 04:13:30 PM
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As the subject says, I am interested in getting some positive results that folks have had using TB in ANY caliber!
I realize it is supposedly simple to load for, no compression, etc.
but I would love to see Actual load data , and as much detailed info as you,ay have, especially target groups, distance, etc.
Also especially, info for more obscure cartridges. As always remembering that this IS a smokeless powder and not a sub for BP cartridges. We want to keep those ancient cylinders intact ... :)
Yhs
Prof Marvel
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Howdy Perfesser,
Seems there was a discussion on Trailboss recently, but I don't recall exactly. My current 44-40 smokeless load is 6.0gr TB with a 200gr bullet, 32-20 is 2.7gr TB with a 115gr bullet. And my current 44 Spcl pistol load is 4.5gr TB with a 180gr bullet. These are CAS loads that I've never put on paper or chrono'd so can't tell you much more about them except they have performed well enough for me to keep using them. I load all these with dippers since the powder is so flaky I would not trust my Lee auto-disk measure to be consistent.
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Abilene I will try out that .44-40 load, thankee!
Professor, I discovered using Trail Boss on my Dillon 550 to give a couple extra seconds to make sure the powder dispenser had dumped the full charge, as this stuff loves to bridge if you let it. Both Dillon and Lee powder dispensers exhibit this.
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Hey Professor ,, I shoot a 76 Chappie in 40/60 & a 92 Rossi in 44-40 ,, 7gr. max in 44-40 w/ 200gr. cast, and 14gr. ( + or - ) in my 40-60 217gr. cast ,, no problems , both will shoot out 50 to 75 yds. ( far as I can see ) very accurately . ( sorry no chrno. )
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.
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Greetings Gents -
Thanks for the replies so far,
how much space are you all using? any cards, wads, fluffy foam, or just airspace?
what do each of you consider "accurate" ?
yhs
prof making a list....
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Hello Professor,
PM sent.
AntiqueSledMan.
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Prof...
We have already discussed , my adventure with my new to me Mk VI Webley
Using 3.5 grains of TB under a .454 hollow base @ 260 grain bullet
I also found a satisficing load @ 50 yds. for my 03 Springfield & SMLE Mk III*
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:) Hi Perfesser ;)
Trail Boss Sucks. I don't/won't use it in anything unless I need a fertilizer sprinkle.
I realize this missive has no real intrinsic value except to occupy some esoteric model of Band Width, so should you elect to ignore it, I shan't be at all upset. Nor insulted. Nor insulated. Nor insinuated. Feel free to peruse something else of greater interest with perhaps more meaningful content. Or Not.
Hide and Watch
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I have used Trail Boss exclusively for many years now, - in .38 Long Colt, .38spcl, 8mm Lebel pistol, 6.5 Mauser and 10.4 X 38 Swiss Vetterli.
I have never loaded a cartridge up to the base of a bullet, although load data says it would be safe. It is the powder I feel comfortable using in antique firearms if not using black powder for safe pressure.
I load it in pistol using one .7 dipper-full in .38spcl and 8mm Lebel, which seems adequate for the target distances we typically shoot. I believe .3 for .38LC. The Vetterli, without referring to notes, took three .7 dipper-fulls, but I could have gone a tad stouter in hindsight, and I believe about the same in the 6.5 Mauser. Again, seemed to be enough to get bullets out to the targets.
I use a single stage loader and hand fill cases by Lee dipper, so no experience in metering to relate.
I like the simplicity of using that one powder to cover all shooting situations. No need to store a lot of different powders. Granted, I am not the type of shooter who experiments with trying to discover just that right combination of powder, bullet, primer etc. to fine tune performance.
I bought a 5 lb. canister right before the big drought several years ago when Trail Boss was not to be had. It has stored well in the basement and seems to have kept its potency.
RCJ
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Ditto to RCJ experience.... TB is forgiving and almost dummy proof ( almost ;) stupid in, nets stupid outcome as Murphy's equation is always in effect.
The 3.5 grain is actually a 45ACP case cut off and with a short handle affixed...it throws 3.5 grains by my scale
In the 45 Auto Rim and the .454 seated, the powder is 10 thousands below the base + the hollow base cavity ( it is not compressed )
I'm seeing 635 FPS average. It is the only case I load to near the base of the bullet (early 3.2 Grain or .7 cc Dipper clocked at 530 FPS )
With the 30 Cals. I use 80% ( I had started @ 70% ).
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I use 13.0 grains in .30 Army, .303 British, .45-60, .45-70, and .50-70, all with complete satisfaction. I also use it in .30 WCF and .38-55, and very happy with it there, too. (I'd have to look up the load data for the last two.) It makes the .30 WCF Saddle Ring Carbine into a pussycat, instead of the fairly healthy recoil it has in full house loads.
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Posted by: Niederlander ... " I use 13.0 grains in .30 Army, .303 British "
as do I , also 30/06 and 11.5 grains in my 308 chambered Mauser. @ 1232 FPS
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Thank You Gents!
Yes even you, Coffin ;D
Thanks for your load info!
Since there is almost NO load data on TB, (sort of like "no data" on the BP Subs )
I am trying to build a little chart like the load books have.
I appreciate all data I can get, as some of the "old load books" also included useful but subjective notes like
"most accurate"
"least accurate"
"soft recoil"
"hard hitting"
etc.
best
prof marvel
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Posted by: Niederlander ... " I use 13.0 grains in .30 Army, .303 British "
as do I , also 30/06 and 11.5 grains in my 308 chambered Mauser. @ 1232 FPS
I forgot the .30-06, but I use that, too!
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With an 1892 Japchester , 24in barrel in 44WCF , Marbles tang sight.
200 Yards shooting Standing with a post for support.
220 grain bullet (Accurate 43-220C) new Starline Brass , CCI#300 Primers and 6.4 grains of Trailboss.
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5.7 TB under a 200 grain bullet in 44-40 or 45 Colt.
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I've used Trailboss in 45 Colt (EMF Colt 73 copy and Ruger Vaquero) and 44 Special in Uberti Open Top and Richards II. Worked allright, can't think of anything that made it stand out from Red Dot, Win 231, or Titegroup that I used prior to Trailboss and still do. Still have several cans full of TB, haven't loaded any with it for awhile, maybe will just have to do. The case filling feature is probably the biggest attribute going for it.
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Thanks Gents..
building a little spreadheet chart thingy
Dave , those are some great groups, I am not sure I can even see those steel creatures that far away!
yhs
prof going blind
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I only shot factory cowboy .44 Magnum and .44 Special ammo in SASS matches until Obama's nomination forced me to take up reloading. I had been saving my cases (mostly Starline) so I started reloading with Trail Boss, using 5.5 grains of Trail Boss with 200 grain RNFP .429 diameter bullets, and a variety of primer brands using a Dillon 550B reloading press.
Out of my Ruger old model Bisley pistols, the load has been chronographed at averages of 737fps and 794 fps (different locations and times of the year), and once out of my Marlin Cowboy 94 at an average of 932 fps. I like having one load for all 3 guns, and I've picked up a few clean match coins since I started aiming first and then pulling the trigger, so the load is accurate at SASS target distances (including bonus targets out to @50 yards).
Snidely Whiplash
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Hi
I really hate Trail Boss. I love the concept of a powder that fills our cases. I hate the way that Trail Boss doesn't weigh accurately. I hate the way that it floats around the room when I'm metering it or weighing it.
Sold my keg to a friend who actually likes it. I use Titegroup for it's supposed independence of position in the case. I can generally hit a 25 yard target with 250 grain round nose.
Later
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My early Uberti 1876 45/75 likes it.
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/010046471428/media/54693555092/medium/1566142862/enhance)
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My good Perfesser ;D
I must admit I have achieved some success with Trail Boss. I sprinkled the bottle I had over the Iris Flower Bed and none of the Irises croaked. Bloomed just fine.
Caliber: Garden
Cartridge: OEM Bottle
Primer: Good solid shake
Accuracy: All landed on the Garden
Cautionary Note: Do NOT attempt to duplicate this performance on a windy day!!!
Cautionary cautionary note: Do NOT sprinkle on Mashed Potatoes either. Yuck.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING - - - - POWER NAPS FOR ALLOFUS!!
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;D In .44-40 I like 5.5grs TB under 43-215, .429, with either Lyman graphite or Alox lube. Excellent results in my two Pietta SAAs and Uberti 1873 rifle. ;D
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KISS. I load for both .45 Colt and Cowboy .45 Spl. I use Trailboss in both loads. 5.5 in the Colt (200 gr. bullet) and 3.5 in the Cowboy Special (160 gr. bullet). I can consistently hit a 16 inch plate with either load at 15 yards. End of story. I've had absolutely no issues with TB. I've shot it in extreme cold and extreme heat. No problems. It's a bit dirty, but otherwise not sure why it has such a bad reputation.
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For those that don't like Trail Boss, you simply don't know what you are talking about. The powder performs just fine when used properly. Some say it was designed for use for the US Navy and applied to CAS.
This powder in NO WAY replicates original "Bulk Powders". This is a fast burning pistol powder and should be treated as such.
For the 44-40, 6.4gr is what I use for plinking. This powder has a high volume, high pressure nature. In other words, you get low velocities at higher pressures than with other appropriate powders.
I only tested two loads of Trail Boss because of what it was. I tested a normal 6.4gr charge (MAX LOAD) and a full charge to where the bullet sits firmly on top of the powder without crushing/compressing the powder. If using a 6.4gr charge, an accidental double charge would overflow the case and not go unnoticed.
6.4gr for the 44-40 is IMR's listed max pressure. The 75% rule does NOT APPLY to PUBLISHED max loads. The 44-40 has a published MAX LOAD!
6.4gr gives me great plinking results and is great for lobbing 200gr of lead down range to 265 yards with decent accuracy. The lack of sufficient velocity gives this distance a handi-cap of not being used for hunting. Barely getting 1,000fps at the muzzle, it could probably bounce off the hid of a deer at 265 yards.
Ballistics
20" MGM test barrel
Pressuretrace II Strain gauge
SAAMI Max Pressure 11,000psi
Test #12 6.4 Trailboss 200 LRNFP Acme Magma NA 7,224psi 38 Ref targets #242, #249 IMR Website Max Load 12,000 CUP
Test #19 9.3 Trailboss 200 LRNFP Acme Magma 1,250fps 15,182psi 38 https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/trail-boss-reduced-loads-r_p.pdf
I think later chronographed rifle velocities were 950fps with 6.4gr
I have also used Trail Boss with the 45 ACP and the pistol cycled just fine.
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I just sold my 308 chambered M1916 Spanish Mauser, I did not need or particularly want to.
But a fellow liked it and my Trail boss loads so well, he insisted and poked a satisfyingly over sufficient amount of folding green, it was hard to say no ( I didn't )
Besides I have several other Milsurps to enjoy Trail Boss in....
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>:( Harrumpff >:(
Aw contrarié Monsieur Austin. I very well happen to know what I'm talking about. Well versed in various powders for 50 years. So: Allow me to reiterate . . . .
I don't like and have no use for Trail Boss. Without intimating others are ignorant. My personal Opine and I happen to like my attitude.
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>:( Harrumpff >:(
Aw contrarié Monsieur Austin. I very well happen to know what I'm talking about. Well versed in various powders for 50 years. So: Allow me to reiterate . . . .
I don't like and have no use for Trail Boss. Without intimating others are ignorant. My personal Opine and I happen to like my attitude.
The OP said to post your success, not your dislikes ::)
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Had your sense of humor surgically removed at birth didja ;D
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Had your sense of humor surgically removed at birth didja ;D
LOLOLOLOL!!!! I heaR YA!!!
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.38 special. 158 grain LRN. 4 grains TB. Bullet seated to give an OAL of 1.5". Wife shoots in CAS. Those .38s are as accurate as she is.
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The OP said to post your success, not your dislikes ::)
I agree. I successfully sold mine to someone who liked Trail Boss!!! ;D ;D ;D
I'm with Coffinmaker on the Tite Group wagon.
Later
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I dislike Titegroup (ball powder) in my Dillon 1050 because every now and then, perhaps 1 in 200 or 300 rounds it fails to seat a primer, by the time the case gets around to crimping all the powder has leaked out gumming up the machine and must be cleaned up. With Bullseye, Unique it is much less, only a few flakes. With Trailboss there is NO leakage. And it works through my Dillon measure with no problem at all. I do use Titegroup and Accurate 7 in my 550b loader for .38 Super because I know immediately if the primer is seated or not. ;D
My $0.02
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I've been using 6.0 gr. of TB topped with a 200 gr. Oregon Trail for over 10 years. It has suited me well, I've seen no reason to change anything. ;D
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Pure marketing bs. All they did was was put a cowboy on the can so people will pay more for less powder. A thread soliciting positive results proves it.
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.38 special. 4 grains Trail Boss under a 158 grain lead round nose. Does everything we need it to do for cowboy action. Revolver and lever action rifle.
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Pure marketing bs. All they did was was put a cowboy on the can so people will pay more for less powder. A thread soliciting positive results proves it.
Ah My Good Galloway
I do agree that Trail boss is a specific marketing thingy.
It IS actually an interesting and laudable idea, to wit, to increase the physical volume of a a "safe" smokeless load in larger cases
by making it "much fluffier"; specifically aimed at the HUGE .45 Colt case.
I too am pisssed angered disconcerted by the cost vs amount. Prior to shortages, the list price was nearly
double for a SMALLER container when compared to Unique. .
I personally dont use it because I am cheap frugal, and have excellent recipes for Unique and plenty of Unique.
I actually started this thread because there is SO LITTLE actual data.
And since this is the RELOADING subforum....
That and I was bored.
But at least I got some folks to share their different succesful loads.
A special thanks to Abilene, Slamfire, Major 2, River City John, Niederlander, David Battersby,
Cliff Fendley, swhiplash, King Medallion, Dirty Dick, hp246, Froogal and esp Bryan Austin for the detailed data including pressure data.
yhs
prof mumbles
PS and a shoutout to our various comedy teams ( ou guys know who you are)
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The paper target . 250gr 20-1 alloy bullet, White Label Lubes 50/50, Starline 2.080 38-55 cases 7.5gr TrailBoss and CCI#350 primers. This is nine shots in what looks like 7 holes at 100 yards. The bullet in the image is a 290gr not the 250gr used. The rifle is a 1894 Winchester/Uberti with a 26" barrel, Lee Shaver globe front sight and MVA Silhouette Soule rear sight. Shot from a sandbag front rest. This bullet is screaming along at 950fps, but it easily knocks over full size 50 meter chickens, 100 meter pigs and 150 meter turkeys. I use the 290gr bullet and H4895 for the 200 meter rams.
The gong. 220gr 30-1 alloy bullet, White Label Lubes 50/50, Starline 44-40 cases, 6.4gr TrailBoss and CCI#300 primers. I was fire forming new cases and just goofing around. I worked my way out to the 200 yard gong and was amazed. The rifle is a 1892 Winchester/Miroku with a 24" barrel, Marbles ivory bead front sight and Marbles tang sight. 200 yards shooting standing with the rifle and left hand against a post. This load with formed cases is just as accurate. It has helped me make master class in pistol caliber silhouette . I have a couple of shooting friends that give me the devil. "How can you shoot a 40 round match with all of that recoil?" "I'm putting earmuffs over my earplugs, your load is way too loud." That slow moving fat, soft bullet whacks the targets.
I will also share this. I have tried loading the 357 magnum in two different rifles with Trailboss. I could not get either to shoot accurately with several different weights and styles of bullets. Green Dot , Unique and TiteGroup all did better. Odd hobby at times.
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Until recent inflationary times the small amount needed per case for CAS ammo was negligent to me for the cost difference. I first liked it on the fact if filled the cases more. I think the last 5 pound jug I'm finishing up has a price tag on it for something like 119 bucks but I will say I was stocked up a few years ago. Once this one is finished off my wife will be shooting Titegroup since I got a great buy on a case of that back before the pandemic.
After that is gone which should last her a while I'll decide where to go from there, maybe she will be in the notion to shoot black powder by then. Either that or this fad of this new smoky less powder will be over by then.
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The paper target . 250gr 20-1 alloy bullet, White Label Lubes 50/50, Starline 2.080 38-55 cases 7.5gr TrailBoss and CCI#350 primers. This is nine shots in what looks like 7 holes at 100 yards. The bullet in the image is a 290gr not the 250gr used. The rifle is a 1894 Winchester/Uberti with a 26" barrel, Lee Shaver globe front sight and MVA Silhouette Soule rear sight. Shot from a sandbag front rest. This bullet is screaming along at 950fps, but it easily knocks over full size 50 meter chickens, 100 meter pigs and 150 meter turkeys. I use the 290gr bullet and H4895 for the 200 meter rams.
The gong. 220gr 30-1 alloy bullet, White Label Lubes 50/50, Starline 44-40 cases, 6.4gr TrailBoss and CCI#300 primers. I was fire forming new cases and just goofing around. I worked my way out to the 200 yard gong and was amazed. The rifle is a 1892 Winchester/Miroku with a 24" barrel, Marbles ivory bead front sight and Marbles tang sight. 200 yards shooting standing with the rifle and left hand against a post. This load with formed cases is just as accurate. It has helped me make master class in pistol caliber silhouette . I have a couple of shooting friends that give me the devil. "How can you shoot a 40 round match with all of that recoil?" "I'm putting earmuffs over my earplugs, your load is way too loud." That slow moving fat, soft bullet whacks the targets.
I will also share this. I have tried loading the 357 magnum in two different rifles with Trailboss. I could not get either to shoot accurately with several different weights and styles of bullets(same with my 223 ammo (https://gritrsports.com/shooting/ammunition/rifle-ammo/223-ammo/) loads). Green Dot , Unique and TiteGroup all did better. Odd hobby at times.
I've tried Trailboss for 357 too, multiple times(sadly no photos left, was a while ago). Never could get it right. Went back to Unique and been doing it ever since.
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Mixed review
It does not meter well, true.
In a Dillon 550B counting to three seconds with the ram up MOST LIKELY will get it all into the case.
When used in .38 Short Colt it uses something like rediculious 2.5 grains, if I remember correctly but check because the min to max is less than 0.5 grains with a 135 grain bullet.
The fouling is sticky and, I think, is tough to remove so usually I shoot Real Gunpowder or APP for easier cleaning.
The good is it is nearly impossible to double charge a case.
It is a smokessomewhatless powder so check Hodgdon loading data.
The unfortunate thing is it is no longer imported.
Hold center
Hit it!
Bunk