Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => Topic started by: powderhombre on August 13, 2020, 10:31:35 AM
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My Inter Arms Virginian Dragoon ( stainless) did not, very well, digest my load of 40gns Goex 3f, compressed by bullet seating, wax paper over powder, smidge of SPG between the wax paper and the 240grn semi wadcutter AOL 1.610. Loaded 5 rounds, slid in the chambers perfectly. Cocked hammer, fired. Felt like you would expect. Went to cock the hammer again and the action was jammed. hammer would barely move back. Pulled the cylinder pin and jiggled things around and the cylinder came out. I inspected all the cartridges and the fired case, everything looked good. Obviously not fouled, I loaded it again and fired with same results. Being concerned I got it unloaded and put it away. Before leaving the range I had an idea. I put one cartridge in the gun and fired it, the action turned when cocked. I inserted 3 rounds every other chamber and all three rounds fired and the action cycled perfectly. I put it away being confused as to what the problem might be. Oh I did fire 5 factory magnum loads with no problems what so ever. upon cleaning the gun, everything looks to be in perfect shape. Any ideas on what may be going on?
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I can only provide additional food for thought. I have loaded .45 Colt blackpowder cartridges for my Schofield with various combinations of wax, grease, and wax paper-under-grease wads. A hard wax wad under a grease wad worked the best for me. For some reason the worst fouling I got occurred when I used wax paper--I think there is something about the ash it produces that allows it into every crevice and makes things "sticky" even though the fouling doesn't look very heavy.
As to your problem, is it possible that a tiny bit of fouling is getting under the rim of the adjacent cartridge during recoil so that the cartridge head is a little proud and jams as it drags against the recoil shield during rotation? It wouldn't take much fouling and would be similar to a high primer, especially if your headspace is tight. That might explain why the every-other-chamber and single cartridge both worked--no adjacent cartridge.
Good luck!
--DJ
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You crammed 40 grns into a 35 grn case. Your primers backed out.
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Ah could be the problem I suppose. I will adjust my powder charge and see if that helps. thank you.
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But if primers were backing out, I'm not sure how it would work better by loading every other chamber. Loading just one, sure, because then you eject the round right after shooting it and it doesn't rotate around to the tight spot on the recoil shield. Easy to verify, though, just look at the spent primer of the rounds that hung up to see if backed out / scraped.
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You crammed 40 grns into a 35 grn case. Your primers backed out.
Yeah - might not be the problem but musta leaned pretty hard on the handle to get it in - despite assumptions to the contrary a 44/40 case holds more powder than the 44 mag - I am guessing about 3 grains difference - expect someone will yell "yr wrong" but I dont reckon wrong by much .
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But if primers were backing out, I'm not sure how it would work better by loading every other chamber. Loading just one, sure, because then you eject the round right after shooting it and it doesn't rotate around to the tight spot on the recoil shield. Easy to verify, though, just look at the spent primer of the rounds that hung up to see if backed out / scraped.
Do you reckon the primer of the next round is backing out when he fires ? could be - there would be a heck of a lot of pressure in that case from that big boolit and the 40 grain charge.
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Primers don't back out on a full charge of powder. The primers back out with weak charges.
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You may need a better crimp for a better burn and a better boom!!
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The primers actually do back out on a full load but the case is driven back against the recoil shield and reseats them.
wM1
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some clarity. I drop tubed 39.5 grains 3f by weight after weighing 40grns by volume. This put the powder level in the case almost a 1/4" below the case mouth. finger placed the wax paper wad to keep the SPG from contaminating the BP. a small amount of SPG was added by hand to the cartridge. The bullet placed on top and seated with the lee bullet seating die after careful adjustment to get the case in the proper crimp groove. Lee Factory crimp die used. I did not have to lean hard on the handle at all. All loads(10) measured remarkably 1.609 AOL. The spent cases do indeed show signs of backed out primers. The gun seemed to have a decent amount of recoil and the fired cases when re sized showed sign of expansion. So I don't know...
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The primers actually do back out on a full load but the case is driven back against the recoil shield and reseats them.
wM1
Correct, I did say that quit wrong...LOL!!
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some clarity. I drop tubed 39.5 grains 3f by weight after weighing 40grns by volume. This put the powder level in the case almost a 1/4" below the case mouth. finger placed the wax paper wad to keep the SPG from contaminating the BP. a small amount of SPG was added by hand to the cartridge. The bullet placed on top and seated with the lee bullet seating die after careful adjustment to get the case in the proper crimp groove. Lee Factory crimp die used. I did not have to lean hard on the handle at all. All loads(10) measured remarkably 1.609 AOL. The spent cases do indeed show signs of backed out primers. The gun seemed to have a decent amount of recoil and the fired cases when re sized showed sign of expansion. So I don't know...
Why many shy away from compressed loads is beyond me. The 44-40's were compressed .17" to .21" in order to get 40gr by weight into the case. The quality of the black powder dictates the volume needed vs weight. Semi-Balloonhead cases only held 3gr more than modern brass.
Enough pressure is needed for the case to slam into the blast shield in order to push the primer back into the pocket. Hope that was a bit more clear.
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More clarity. Once fired Winchester brass, Winchester Large Pistol primers. My Colt load of 35gns under a 255 grn cast bullet is standard. I figured 40 grains of powder under a 240 grn cast bullet would be a little more stout, but it is in a 44 magnum gun. I had no worries of hurting the gun or me. Like I said recoil was stout. The Virginian Dragoon is a very robust well made Single Action army with close tolerances . Just for fun I will load 35 grains and use a different brand primer. I did have a thought. The firing pin is mounted in the frame. There is no transfer bar safety. I thought maybe the firing pin stuck in the primer and did not retract. It's the only thing I can think of. But then why the single cartridge and intermittent cartridges working fine?
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some clarity. I drop tubed 39.5 grains 3f by weight after weighing 40grns by volume. This put the powder level in the case almost a 1/4" below the case mouth. finger placed the wax paper wad to keep the SPG from contaminating the BP. a small amount of SPG was added by hand to the cartridge. The bullet placed on top and seated with the lee bullet seating die after careful adjustment to get the case in the proper crimp groove. Lee Factory crimp die used. I did not have to lean hard on the handle at all. All loads(10) measured remarkably 1.609 AOL. The spent cases do indeed show signs of backed out primers. The gun seemed to have a decent amount of recoil and the fired cases when re sized showed sign of expansion. So I don't know...
Sounds fine - I have vintage goex from last century here and I would definitely need to "lean on it" to get 40 grains into a 44 mag case - moreso with a 240 grain boolit on top of it - (they ARE smaller capacity than a 44/40 - by how much smaller is the only question there).
as for "lean on it" you are compressing with the boolit when you seat it? with a compound press you would not notice much resistance to heavy compression - proly first thing would be hearing the powder grains scrunching in the case.
The fact you dont have the problem when loading alternate chambers has me questioning if something strange is going on like a resonance or some weird concussive effect when you fire an adjacent chamber. For that to happen you would need a compressed charge to create internal tension in the case ?????????? dunno but its interesting .........most complex problems have simple solutions .............
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Why many shy away from compressed loads is beyond me. The 44-40's were compressed .17" to .21" in order to get 40gr by weight into the case. The quality of the black powder dictates the volume needed vs weight. Semi-Balloonhead cases only held 3gr more than modern brass.
Enough pressure is needed for the case to slam into the blast shield in order to push the primer back into the pocket. Hope that was a bit more clear.
some more clarity for Bryan I am definitely NOT one to shy away from compressed (blackpowder) loads but I do like to do it with a non compound press so I can feel what I am doing - my homemade powder only runs about 90% density - and my loading procedure with the winchesters (44and 38/40) is fill it up till it spills over at the top, tap the case a few times with the spout of the horn I use for dispensing till it all fits in, compress to seating depth in a super simplex press (straight linkage not compound) ..Cant be bothered with drop tubing these small cases unless I am running a chrono test, then I will weigh and drop tube each charge.
These are fun guns with their barrel sights - If I try I can shoot em into about two inches at 50 yards - cant see any better than that anyway and If I could see better proly couldnt hold any better unless I went to a bench. NO! I cant do 2 inches offhand at 50 yards - ;D
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some more clarity for Bryan I am definitely NOT one to shy away from compressed (blackpowder) loads but I do like to do it with a non compound press so I can feel what I am doing - my homemade powder only runs about 90% density - and my loading procedure with the winchesters (44and 38/40) is fill it up till it spills over at the top, tap the case a few times with the spout of the horn I use for dispensing till it all fits in, compress to seating depth in a super simplex press (straight linkage not compound) ..Cant be bothered with drop tubing these small cases unless I am running a chrono test, then I will weigh and drop tube each charge.
These are fun guns with their barrel sights - If I try I can shoot em into about two inches at 50 yards - cant see any better than that anyway and If I could see better proly couldnt hold any better unless I went to a bench. NO! I cant do 2 inches offhand at 50 yards - ;D
Oh yeah, aint it fun??? I forgot about trying to get 240gr bullets in there that may seat deeper than the typical 200gr. I think the originals seat at .300 but even I can't remember that right off.
I shot a few 44 Mags with 200gr and black powder loads years back. Performed just like the 44-40. The 44 Mag cases are stronger so one can compress a bit more than with the 44-40 cases.
fun fun fun ;D
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Sounds more like the transfer bar is hanging up on the firing pin.
Compressing powder isn't a problem if you use a compression die.
Lube the bullet with the SPG, drop the dab of lube on the base of the bullet, and use a wad cut from an old playing card.
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I have a 44 Mangelem HR Handi rifle I shoot for Plainsman. Loaded with a full case of BP and a 200Gr bullet, the case shows signs of Blow-By. The ejector kicks it out just fine but I would be suspect of the cases sticking enough in a revolver to inhibit free rotation of the cylinder. Maybe. Dunno.
Hide and Watch
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You stated above that your primers did show small evidence of backing out. May be,, just maybe the cylinder walls are just a little bit rough enough to grip the case just enough before the case slides back to reseat the primer. Maybe a light honing/smoothing of the walls might help. Just a thought. Don't understand about working ok with every other hole loaded though.
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Are your bullets jumping the crimp groove? That would explain why it locks up with a full cylinder but not loaded every other hole. Are the primers actually backing out or crushed flush with the rim?
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44 Extra Long Russian (44 mag) loaded with a compressed charge of BP under a Big Lube Mav Dutchman lube sized with PL-II ran very well at Squinty Eye last weekend. Both revolvers (Ruger Vaqueros) and Win. 92 rifles had no problems although one round did get under the carrier and caused a train wreck stage. With the Big Lube Mav Dutchman bullets there is NO need for wads, cookies or anything else. Simply drop in the powder and seat the bullet.
DD-MDA
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FYI, Remington .44 Magnum brass has about 89.4% of the water capacity of a W-W .44-40 case with a 212 gr. bullet seated in both. As far as sticking chambers is concerned, have you had any similar problems with smokeless loads loaded to similar MV with the primers backing out and not reseating? I don't shoot BP, but there could be something of a low-pressure condition in some of your loads, so the cases aren't moving backward.
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A brace of Ruger 44 Mag. Vaqueros frequently adorn my pistol belt. I load 'em up with a compressed charge of FFFg Holy Black under a lube/sized Mav Dutchman big Lube bullet. Nothing else. They easily run a full three day match with no need to clean. Function and accuracy are well maintained. The lube quantity keeps the fouling soft so that it easily blows away on the following shot. My second and my last shot of the match encounter the same amount of fouling.
There is the solution to my 44 Mag. fouling question.
DD-MDA
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Forget the SPG gob under the bullet. I suspect you are forcing the lube into the powder and is has enough time to taint the charge and actually give you a lighter load than you think due to powder contamination. The gun will still go BOOM! and the heavier bullet will recoil more but with lower pressure the backed out primers would certainly lock up the action.
For extra lube you can do two things:
#1 Put 1 or 2 discs of beeswax sheeting (actually brood core for beehives but sold in craft stores in sheets to roll up into candles) by pressing the sheet with your thumb over the case mouth to punch out the disc(s) then seat the bullet on top. It is straight beeswax but it has solved some lack of lube problems for me in various calibers.
#2 Buy a "greasewagon" type bullet mold from biglube.com and you won't need to fool with wads or discs. I make my own lube from 50/50 deer tallow and beeswax. You could also go with beeswax and lard (beef suet or mutton tallow makes a slightly harder lube than lard).
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I occasionally shoot a brace of Ruger Vaquero 44 Magnums for SASS matches. Absolutely no need for wax paper, gob of SPG or anything else. Simply lube/size the Mav Dutchman Big Lube bullets and seat them. I use between 1/8" and 1/16" powder compression. Job done. My guns will easily run a full annual match with no need to clean between days. They continue to maintain accuracy and function with no special treatment.
DD-MDA
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I had a similar problem with a brand new Cimmaron in .45 Colt. I found a burr on the face of the cylinder bushing. A couple of minutes on a sharpening stone took care of it.