Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => Shooter's Meeting => Topic started by: PJ Hardtack on August 24, 2018, 06:42:56 PM
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At a recent CAS event, a friend suffered a catastrophic failure with his .45 '73 carbine. A round detonated, blowing the side plate almost off the rifle, the firing pin hitting him in the head. The linkage was destroyed.
He suffered a broken cheek, broken nose, his hard plastic safety glasses saving his eye. Had he not been wearing them, it is likely the pin would have penetrated his eye socket to his brain. The pin did carry on, narrowly missing my wife.
There is no way he could have put enough BP into a .45 Colt case to cause a problem. We figure that he put BP into his Dillon measure without fully draining the Tite Group first, the last few charges needing manual encouragement to drop. Nothing else makes sense.
He was taken to emerg, but returned within the hour to soot the final stage of the match. That was pretty heroic of him. He figured that if he didn't, it would be a while before he got back up on the horse again.
This is the fourth accident I have seen on a CAS range, two of the others being Henry rifles where the user dropped the mag follower on loaded rds. In both cases, three rds detonated which did bad things to the mag tube. One shooter suffered brass fragments to his wrist.
The other was the case failure of a Dominion 44-40 balloon head case full of BP. In this case, the shooter had his glasses up on his hat, and the RO failed to notice. He got a face full of gas, but suffered no eye damage.
This sparked a discussion at our club re: the wearing of eye and eye protection. Believe it or not, in this day and age, we still have people that don't think they need eye and ear protection, not even for their kids. This is contrary to club policy and posted rules, but not strictly enforced.
Now it will be.
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Yikes, that's pretty scary! Sure glad he wasn't hurt worse. Do you happen to know how old the '73 was? In particular, if it was one of the older ones with only a small pin holding the firing pin extension to the bolt.
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Some years back, Uberti started changing the design of the Breach Block (Bolt) and Firing Pin Extension Rod. These changes were the result of several Out Of Battery detonations in Uberti 1873 Replicas. The initial cause was, at the time there was a common practice of taking the Trigger Block Safety out of the rifle so the Speedy folks could eliminate something that might slow them down.
At that time, the Extension Rod was retained by a tiny little soft pin. In the case of an OOB event, the little pin would sheer and the firing pin extension tried to exit the rifle. Usually hanging up on the Hammer. Uberti reacted by increasing the size of the cross pin. Someone still sheered the larger pin so Uberti went to the current design, with a slot cut in the side of the Rod and corresponding retaining plate secured by the actual Link Pivot Pin. Bullet proof. Ummmmm ...... not quite. Recently, I saw the result of an OOB event that sheered the remaining steel tab from the front of the extension rod and spit the rod out of the action. I was amazed. Still am.
Nothing we build that is mechanical is FOOL proof. Nothing we make is IDIOT proof. Someone will always get around built in safety and manage to have an issue. Or, deliberately eliminate the built in SAFETY. Humans do that. The thing to remember, in playing our super fun GAME, we play with REAL guns. We shoot REAL ammunition. We reload with REAL EXPLOSIVES. BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!!
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I'm not getting it. Are these real blowouts. Or shots out of batery?
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Thank you for posting this PJ
This sparked a discussion at our club re: the wearing of eye and eye protection
We shoot REAL ammunition. We reload with REAL EXPLOSIVES. BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!!
I was thinking about this post while doing some reloading this morning and then realized I did not have my safety glasses on. This post was a great reminder for me to think about what I'm doing.
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The '73 in question is several years old. I'm not sure of what generation. The OOB question is a possibility - IF a BP load is strong enough to cause the problem.
Is it?
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The '73 in question is several years old. I'm not sure of what generation. The OOB question is a possibility - IF a BP load is strong enough to cause the problem.
Is it?
Any load with an OOB discharge can cause problems. I've heard of bent levers. But I have not heard of destroyed links and blown off side plates. To me that sounds more like the loading error possibility you mentioned. Hope he pulls the bullets of the rest of his ammo from that batch.
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I think (That'll take a whole bottle of aspirin to fix), unless I could examine the rifle AND talk to the victim, the best any of could venture would be a WAG (Military acronym for Wild Ass Guess). In the event of an OOB, the cartridge becomes a Grenade. Nasty little bugger too. However ....
Too blow the side plates would take a nasty detonation back in the action. Based solely on the description, I would be more inclined (not on level) to postulate (didn't think I knew big words didja) the Ladle Tab let go and a round got back into the clockworks and detonated back in the receiver. A full case of BP back in there could cause all sorts of havoc. An OOB only has two ways for the blast to go. UP and DOWN thru the Carrier Block Mortice.
However: The Breach Block sheering the Extension Rod Retainer complicates the whole deal. In the event is is an OOB, If the Breach Block (Bolt) recoiled hard enough to sheer the Extension Rod and Spit it out, It could easily bend/fracture the Links which could bow out against the Side Plates which are retained by a single screw and a couple of shallow Dovetails.
Either way, using your face to stop a charging Extension Rod is not something I would necessarily recommend. Hurts. Can hurt really bad. Much rather it stay in the Rifle. In any event .... Murphy has jumped up and clobbered someone real hard. When it comes to mechanical devices, Murphy's Law is Supreme. If it can go wrong, It Will. At the worst possible time. I am however, quite glad it wasn't me whom Murphy clobbered (Knocks firmly on Wood).
I'll now refresh my coffee while this little ditty posts. Some slow it is.
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Thanks for the input, gentlemen.
I have passed on the comments to other witnesses and they will likely chime in on the OOB theory which seems to be valid.
It isn't just CAS where this sort of thing happens. I know of a case where a 9mm Colt Commander blew the grips and mag plate due to an overcharge of Bulls Eye. I found the gold Colt grip medallion on the ground during the investigation. His hand was shot full of wood fragments.
Years ago, a friend had the barrel of a cheap Italian ML blow where the stock tenon was inletted on the bottom of the barrel. His hand looked like he had held onto a grenade. He said he had not over loaded the gun.
Another friend recently had his .260 Rem blow up at the Cdn Nat. Sil. Champs in Saskatchabush. The rifle was destroyed and his left hand/arm badly damaged. He is expected to make a good recovery.
It is suspected that it was a low powder detonation and I've heard that his grandson might have been involved in the loading process.
Compared to a lot of injuries incurred in other sports, overall, we are doing pretty well.
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Did the original 1873's have these problems with the firing pin coming back to hit the shooter? A lot of the originals are being shot a lot
and i have not heard that it is a problem. I suspect the originals were better built that the repro"s. this thread kind of makes me nervous about my Uberti 1873's. my max charge is 8.0gr of Unique which i choose out of Loaddata.com.
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Hi Treebeard :D And PJ.
Some more stuff. PJ, your up first. There is no such thing as a low powder or low power detonation. Physics. Physics jumps up again. You see, there are only so many Jules of energy stored in a given amount of propellant or explosive. X number of Jules stored results in just X number of Jules released. A low powder detonation just produces a Piffitt. Or a whoomp. No Boomba. Nada. Low powder detonations are an old wives tale. It was not a "Low Powder Detonation." The old wives tale started with people blowing up Single Action handguns. The actual culprit was/is when a sloppy reload included TWO bullets in the same case. The two bullets act as a bore obstruction and confine the gun gas in one tiny space. Boomba. No obstruction, no Boomba. Simple (physics)
Treebeard it's your turn now. NO. Original '73s don't suffer this problem. The design of an original '73 ignition system is completely different. A Uberti has 4 pieces. Breach Block (bolt), Firing Pin, Return Spring and Extension Rod. They all flop around together. Or apart if you screw up. An original '73 has just two parts. The Breach Block and the Firing Pin. The firing pin and extension are one loooooong piece. The firing pin is retracted by the links and is retained in the breach block by a rocker tab that doesn't break. Neither Uberti nor Miroku copied the original design. Stupid. If your '73 was manufactured in the last 5 or so years, it should be nearly bullet proof although I did see one of the new design extension rods that failed. It's simple. Don't have an OOB detonation. It won't be fun :o
Here is the important part. When the links are in correct parallel, the action is "locked" and the bolt is held in place by the links sitting in big lugs in the receiver and the back of the breach block. Nothing moves. All three pivots are aligned. In an OOB event, the links are NOT aligned and are able to collapse. Very very very RAPIDLY. Fecal Matter Propagates. The Trigger Block Safety prevents the hammer from starting the ignition sequence until the links are parallel. Unless something or someone stupid, screws with it. Kapish??? Oh, once the links start to collapse, the bolt accelerates to the rear real fast (Rocket Sled Time) and then comes to a stop. Instantaneous Deceleration. Then in accordance with physics, the Extension Rod shears the pin and continues to the rear, where one tries to stop it with one's face. That hurts. A LOT! Don't have an OOB Detonation.
I'll now go get another cup of Java while this little dissertation posts.
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A lot of people more knowledgeable than me would not agree with your opinion on this matter. I've read several times about 'detonations' occurring in revolvers loads using the classic 2.7 grs of Bulls Eye under a 148 gr WC.
Even in the event of a double charge, all you are going to get is one good "Bang!" and the cylinder will not come apart in a quality S&W .38/.357. Factory proof loads far exceed that, I believe. I don't think anyone is going to load a 2nd WC on top of the first.
I do know of a case where THREE rds were fired in a revolver before the shooter noticed the bullets were not leaving the barrel. He was shooting light loads and there was other firing going on around him. Net result was a bulged barrel.
Hi Treebeard :D And PJ.
Some more stuff. PJ, your up first. There is no such thing as a low powder or low power detonation. Physics. Physics jumps up again. You see, there are only so many Jules of energy stored in a given amount of propellant or explosive. X number of Jules stored results in just X number of Jules released. A low powder detonation just produces a Piffitt. Or a whoomp. No Boomba. Nada. Low powder detonations are an old wives tale. It was not a "Low Powder Detonation." The old wives tale started with people blowing up Single Action handguns. The actual culprit was/is when a sloppy reload included TWO bullets in the same case. The two bullets act as a bore obstruction and confine the gun gas in one tiny space. Boomba. No obstruction, no Boomba. Simple (physics)
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Not to be terribly disagreeable (wanna bet??) but WE are not discussing my opinion. We are discussing science and physics. There are numerable people who when faced with science as opposed to "Ralph's" so called experience will side with Ralph, even when he doesn't have a clue. As a point ... ALL of the powder and ammunition manufacturers, and the military, have tried for years to get a low powder detonation that created damage or "blew up a cylinder." Nada. Nix. Nine. Has NEVER happened. They have tried with the best and finest scientific equipment. Not until a form of bore obstruction was introduced did bad things happen. And YES, people have admitted to loading more than one bullet. A fouled seating die grabs a bullet and hangs on to it. Ralph the reloader places a bullet in the next case up for bids and the die rams TWO. Several folks have been fortunate enough to catch this before a cylinder came apart. Those Nabobs who claim 2.7Gr Bulls Eye under a single 148Gr WC simply don't know what they are talking about. I have personally talked with military Ballistics guys as well as a Ballistics guy for Hodgdon who have confirmed NO ONE has ever created a Low Powder detonation without some form of obstruction.
When you talk about a double charge, a double charge of what?? There are powders out there that in a double charge, in any caliber, will destroy a cylinder. Kindly remember, with a revolver, you do have a pressure release at the Barrel/Cylinder gap. It can make a difference where the obstruction occurs. Believe what you like. Unless you can duplicate the effect in a pressure barrel, it doesn't exist. For the most part, someone whom has done something wrong, doesn't actually know what they did wrong. Just a REALLY BIG BANG and the gun came apart. Unless your working with equipment that can measure what is happening in a pressure vessel, you don't even have a good guess. It all happens in nano seconds. Unless the individual talking and making claims is working in a Ballistics Lab, they really don't know what they are talking. Just taking a WAG.
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Considering the length of a .38 WC bullet and the space it takes up in a .38 Spl. case, I think it highly unlikely a reloader would seat one atop of another without noticing something was amiss, regardless of the type of press - single stage or progressive. A case without a bullet would make itself known PDQ.
I have been present only once when a cylinder came apart. It was a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 magnum in the hands of a newbie CAS shooter. He assured us that his loads did not exceed 1000 fps. He had one very loud detonation on one stage and on the next stage, he blew his cylinder. God knows what kind of a load it took to do that, but it was almost certainly a double charge.
The suspected double charge I mentioned earlier was a double charge of Bulls Eye in a 9mm under a 124 gr FMJ bullet. The little Colt Commander did not like it.
It is also possible that he had not applied enough crimp and in chambering a normally charged rd, the bullet was deep seated. That would raise pressure.
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Yessir PJ.
Mistakes abound. We are, after all suppose to be human. An error I was present for, I gave a new guy my load for 45 Colt, 200Gr Bullet and sent him on his merry way. Jest before the next match, he went to a vacant berm to test his newly loaded ammo. The report was earth shaking. To quote Marvin the Martian (one of my favorite characters) it was an "Earth Shaking KABOOMB." I immediately started walking over, but here he came, white faced, eyes big like an owl, hands shaking. He wanted to know what I was doing, giving him a load like that. I told him it wasn't MY load that did that, what did HE do. He didn't do anything. He had one of his bestest buds reload his ammo for the match. Never mind, the cylinder was jammed against the top strap (Ruger Vaquero), I took three rounds home. Turned out what was in the case was the equivalent of a DOUBLE charge of Tightgroup. A double charge as listed in the book as maximum for a .44 MAGNUM. the gun went back to Ruger. Ruger said the Guns was just fine. They even replaced the Cylinder (free) and included a note with the repaired gun "Do Not Do That Again." Seems his best bud the "great" loader had left his press set for a different powder in a different caliber. Nearly a disaster. As an aside, I will no longer share my load data with anyone. I also WILL NOT reload for anyone but myself.
I do know of several folks whom have managed to stuff two 250Gr bullets in a 45 Colt case. One guy caught the error, one guy blew the top strap and top of the cylinder completely off a brand new Uberti SA. The guy whom blew up the gun, found another round in his batch, exactly the same way. Was really curious how he got two different empty (no bullet) cases in his batch. Never thought to investigate. Normally, these type errors occur with Progressive Presses and the operatior is trying to load at crazy speeds. Trying to get 700 rounds out of a Dillon 650 in under an hour. Atz pretty silly but guys do it all the time.
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I've got two Dillon 550B presses and an ancient RCBS Jr. on which I reload my BPCR calibres.
I make it a habit to stop reloading and take a break after every 100 rds. More than that and my attention starts to wander. I also stop immediately if my sequence is interrupted by the phone or my wife.
Then I clear the cycle and start anew. All learned by experience .....
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I just learned that the rifle in question was of the latest generation.
Also, it was the first rd fired in the stage which precludes the likelihood of a bore obstruction.
I'm not getting it. Are these real blowouts. Or shots out of batery?
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Man ! I hate squeeze & duck !!! I just got thru loading 100 rds. for my 40/60 " Chappie " ,, after reading this ,I'm going to go weigh my loads,, 50 are loaded w/ TB and 50 w/ H-4198 , for testing 200-300 yds. OOh ! ,loaded 50 one nite and 50 the next nite ,,cleaned my LEE PPM between powders ,, " still " ,,??? .
Mr. Coffin, I ( again ) thank you ( and others ) for your knowledge and in put ,, it helps to remind us ,,, like PJ said ,,stop if interrupted ,, one of the reasons I load at night w/o a phone ( over cautious ,, ??) .
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .
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Just to add to your nightmares .....
A friend with a "Star" reloader (the pioneer of progressive presses) was on "automatic pilot" while reloading .45 CP rds. He was watching an action movie at the same time.
He noticed that the powder hopper was empty and had no idea when that happened. He ended up pulling the bullets of well over 100 rds before he started finding powder. That's a lot of whacks with a kinetic bullet puller!
How's that for being switched off?
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There is a modification for the 73's with the small or large pin retaining the firing pin extension. A set screw can be installed in the bottom of the back of the bolt that will go into a milled slot in the bottom of the firing pin extension. The retaining pin will still shear but the extension will no longer exit the back of the rifle.
wM1
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It's always good to read about safety issues on a forum. It keeps us on our toes.
Not yet mentioned in this discussion is the common problem of sticking firing pins on '73 rifles. A firing pin that is stuck (bound) in the forward position can, and eventually will, set off a round as the gun is levered. Visualize the firing pin being proud of the bolt face and coming forward onto the round laying in the elevator. The round could discharge at any point while moving forward, to battery.
This is not a theory, it has happened to me. The round (a 38/40 180 grain bullet, case filled with Shutzen FFF) went off early in the levering of the gun -- about the time the bullet started entering the chamber. All but the back 1/4" of the case was turned to shrapnel. The lever was bent significantly.
The firing pin getting stuck this way was the result of repeated dry firing without a snap-cap in the gun. The firing pin peened a burr into one of the narrow parts of the channel and that burr locked the firing pin solid in the bolt. (the mechanism is inertial on Uberti rifles and the only thing stopping the forward movement of the pin on a empty chamber is the shoulders of the narrowed channel in the bolt) I subsequently learned that this is a common issue from the 'smith who had repaired several '73 rifles that had "blown up" over the years. He said, in every case, the rifle was owned by a serious shooter who had done a lot of dry firing with it.
He went on to tell me that REGULARLY testing the firing pin for smooth and uninterrupted retraction, back into the bolt, was a standard test that every '73 owner ought perform during every cleaning episode. I have done so ever since. Up, until that time, I had never checked the firing pin for binding, I dry fired a lot, and never used snap caps. Those three things have changed.
I got off without hurting any other shooters and felt very fortunate. The gun had to be completely rebuilt, but I got a BIG lesson for my money. Hope this lesson helps keep you safe.
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I do know of several folks whom have managed to stuff two 250Gr bullets in a 45 Colt case.
This statement fascinated me so I thought I would set out to intentionally duplicate it. Using a Lee 0.5cc dipper I put some sand into a .45 Colt case and pressed in two 255 grain bullets (250 grain not available). Picking up the cartridge it was immediately obvious that it was heavier than it should be (OK, the sand would be a shade heavier than powder). It would also have stood proud of the others in a box as the resulting cartridge had an overall length of 1.75". To get those two bullets into that case there would apparently have to be no powder in there at all.
Chance
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August - thanks for the tip! I'll pass it along.
This theory makes more sense to me than any of the others.
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Alright, Ladies & Gents...grab a cup of you favorite beverage, be seated and get comfortable. (There may be a quiz at the end of the lecture period).
First, I will agree that without seeing the rifle in question, analysis of the problem is difficult. An OOB firing sound possible if not probable. The original Winchester '73's design was far superior to the current batch of reproductions. Slam fire due to inadvertent release of the follower on M1860-design Henry Repeating Rifles has definitely happened! My solution is to load with the rifle almost horizontal, and to firmly wrap the fingers of the other hand around the barrel/magazine prior to releasing the follower.
Now, as to "detonations": By ordnance definitions, a "detonation" is an explosion that produces a shock front in excess of 25,000 ft/sec. There is insufficient chemical energy in small arms smokeless powder to cause a "detonation"! HOWEVER...in smokeless powder bottleneck cartridges, especially ones that have sharp shoulders and are overbore capacity, reduced loads of slowburning smokeless powder can cause overpressure conditions strong enough to exceed the ultimate tensile strength of the brass cartridge, thus releasing high pressure gas into the action, with bad results! What causes the high pressure with reduced loads of slowburning powder is creation of a shock wave that, if the powder is in a certain configuration in the case, can reflect off the front of the shoulder in the case. When such a shock wave reaches the smoldering or partially burned powder, the pressure increases, which, in turn, increases the burning rate of the power. This increases the pressure, which increases the burning rate exponentially until the cartridge ruptures. This phenomenon has been known by Naval Ordnance engineers since at least the 1960's and probably before.
Moral: DO NOT ATTEMPT TO REDUCE LOADS OF SLOW-BURNING POWDERS BELOW THE RECOMMENDED CHARGES! If you want reduced loads, go to a faster-burning powder!
Revolver blowups: There are three potentials for overpressures in revolvers: 1) Double-bulleting due to failure to notice what's happening either by the handloader not paying attention to what he/she is doing; or malfunctioning of a progressive loader. (I have never had the latter happen...because I don't use a progressive press!)
2) Double-charging of a smokeless powder, either through carelessness or malfunctions. However, experiments have shown that some double charges may not result in destruction of the gun! Just be careful!
3) A phenomenon of premature shotstart in revolvers, where the bullet moves out of the case, and into the forcing cone where the bullet stops, allowing the pressure to build up until the case ruptures, allowing high pressure gas to do a number on the gun!
Now smokeless powder requires between 5,000-7,000 psi (NOT CUP!) to commence stable burning. If the bullet starts to move before this pressure level has been reached, the pressure will drop until the remaining powder is smoldering, but no extinguished. If the bullet lodges in the forcing cone and stops, so that the barrel-cylinder gap is blocked, the pressures will rise. This will cause the burning rate of the powder to increase, increasing the pressure, etc., exponentially. Depending on how sloppy the chamber is compared to the cartridge case prior to firing, the increasing pressure will expand the case until it ruptures, releasing hot gases that act like a cutting torch on the steel of the chamber wall. With many .45 LC guns, the oversized chambers allow the cartridge to initially lie against the bottom of the chamber. If the bullet stops in the forcing cone, as outlined above, the case will usually stretch upward until it ruptures at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions, releasing the flame and cutting the chamber walls. The pressure also causes the top of the cylinder to come off, usually taking the topstrap with it. Experiments I ran some years ago, measuring pressure-time curves in .45 LC ammo, purposely loaded to allow premature shotstart, without causing destruction, as well as experiments by others, confirm the presents of the pressure spikes and drop off until the bullet hits the forcing cone.
There is a simple way to prevent this phenomenon: Insure that "bullet pull", the force needed to move the bullet out of the case is high enough so the powder gets burning fully enough to move the bullet: Reduce the diameter of the expander plug sufficiently so there is good friction between the case wall and the bullet; AND CRIMP, CRIMP, CRIMP! Roll crimp the case mouth into a crimp groove enough so you can see and feel it, but not so much as to collapse the case or bulge the case wall away from the side of the bullet!
Now, I will entertain questions until the end of the class period. Go ahead! Flame away! ;)
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I have to support everything Coffinmaker and Trailrider have said. While reading this I tried to remember how many "blow ups" I've been present for. It's well over half a dozen in 50+ years of shooting and competition. In every instance I saw or heard about it was eventually determined to be a reloading error. Double charges in progressives that don't auto advance, changing powder type without resetting the measure, and just not paying attention (watching TV while reloading is a classic).
Dave
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I've witnessed two catastrophic blowups with Henrys - three rds in each case. In both, it was the shooter who caused the failures by letting the follower drop on loaded rds.
In the case of the '73 that is the topic of this question, the shooter did have one other loud sounding report on a previous stage that attracted attention. It was his first rd on the next stage where the failure occurred.
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It's always good to read about safety issues on a forum. It keeps us on our toes.
Not yet mentioned in this discussion is the common problem of sticking firing pins on '73 rifles. A firing pin that is stuck (bound) in the forward position can, and eventually will, set off a round as the gun is levered. Visualize the firing pin being proud of the bolt face and coming forward onto the round laying in the elevator. The round could discharge at any point while moving forward, to battery.
This is not a theory, it has happened to me. The round (a 38/40 180 grain bullet, case filled with Shutzen FFF) went off early in the levering of the gun -- about the time the bullet started entering the chamber. All but the back 1/4" of the case was turned to shrapnel. The lever was bent significantly.
The firing pin getting stuck this way was the result of repeated dry firing without a snap-cap in the gun. The firing pin peened a burr into one of the narrow parts of the channel and that burr locked the firing pin solid in the bolt. (the mechanism is inertial on Uberti rifles and the only thing stopping the forward movement of the pin on a empty chamber is the shoulders of the narrowed channel in the bolt) I subsequently learned that this is a common issue from the 'smith who had repaired several '73 rifles that had "blown up" over the years. He said, in every case, the rifle was owned by a serious shooter who had done a lot of dry firing with it.
He went on to tell me that REGULARLY testing the firing pin for smooth and uninterrupted retraction, back into the bolt, was a standard test that every '73 owner ought perform during every cleaning episode. I have done so ever since. Up, until that time, I had never checked the firing pin for binding, I dry fired a lot, and never used snap caps. Those three things have changed.
I got off without hurting any other shooters and felt very fortunate. The gun had to be completely rebuilt, but I got a BIG lesson for my money. Hope this lesson helps keep you safe.
This is outta place here proly shoulda put it in the 92 place but its on subject - an OOB with a Rossi 92 - however maybe a lesson for someone
Close to 40 years ago a mate of mine bought this Rossi after the deed was done - it had been traded to Myras gunshop in the outback town of Broken Hill - potential buyer comes in and some fool decides to test cycle it with live 357 mag round in the shop - kaboom!!!! boolit exits stage left and high leaving a nice lil souvenier hole in the window that I was told still there 20 years hence. Boolit clears the other side of main street and likely came to rest in someones chook pen on the outskirts of town - aside from the brown underwear no harm done. So my mate buys this work in progress cheap for me to fix (we did a lot of that) story was a broken firing pin - it seemed to be ok but after one untimely discharge I pulled it down to discover a winchester original firing pin replaced the Rossi but the gunshop dude had lost the ejector assembly and we also missing the front barrel band (carbine) -- I made a new barrel band /front sight and ejector assembly, fitted the firing pin - I did a lot of testing and eventually put the Rossi in my rack as a finished deal (sold now) years went by and I had a friend rebarrel a original 44/40 for me - I stripped it out before he got it and everything was fine and it went back together sweet - - he did the job, test fired it - I shot it on and off for a year or so - only a couple hundred rounds - one day I was cranking it a bit practicing for a rapid fire match and had an accidental discharge (gun went off on target but finger clear of the trigger, it just fired as the bolt closed) ---ooooops -- a broken firing pin - when I pulled it down was plain the pin had been broken quite a while but still working (could tell that by the peening impact where the break was) and it was also bowed a little to the right hand side - not much - the break was captive between the cheeks of the lever - after some head scratching I visited my gunsmith mate who just happened to be woking on another 92 (one of several he aseembled from parts he was given) we sat and talked while he worked and I watched him assemble the new gun - came to fitting the lever pin and ejector and hes picked up a hammer and pin punch with the lever pin about halfway home - couple of taps - didnt seem like a lot the pin moves some then goes home ok ---whats the point ? ok right when he picked up the hammer to tap that pin it was sitting interference on the weakest point of the firing pin - its bowed it a little bit sideways and probably upwards as well and I reckon his hammer and punch trick has broken the pin in my 44/40 and someone else had done the same trick with same result on that Rossi - it all works while ever the front part of the broken pin stays free in the bolt but as soon as the peening of the break gets enough swelling to bind (in the lever in a 92) and then we add some impact with a fast close of the bolt ----off she goes ----- its a theory anyway !!!
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Regarding the OP - do we know if the bullet exited the barrel? Is the brass cartridge case available for examination?
Chance
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Chance
I haven't spoken to the person that suffered the blow up since the incident as he went back to work out of town. I will ask someone who examined the rifle if the bullet left the barrel.
Greyhawk
Looks no design is immune mechanical failure, compounded by human error. It's 'heads up' all the time.
When I acquired my first paper Sharps, I was told that I had a potential bomb on my hands as the next rd could be ignited by a smouldering piece of paper left in the chamber.
As a result, I've made a habit of giving the chamber a quick blow before inserting the next rd. There is occasionally a narrow strip of paper left where the glue was applied, but it has never been an issue.
I've also never read any historic accounts where it was a problem during combat.
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Are 'we' certain, that this didn't happen after a squib?
LG
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Let us go back a ways. Turn the pages back and re-read if you will. Between what Trailrider and Wrote, I would hope there is at least a glimmer of the science and physics involved. If all I and trail rider accomplish is to extinguish a couple of "Old Wives Tails" we sill have accomplished a lot. Altogether too many people are PARROTS. Willing to grasp what amounts to a Guess and Gossip and begin to repeat it as gospel. That is a shame.
In this particular instance, we can only offer a WAG (Military Acronym for a Wild Ass Guess). None of us were there, none of us had a chance to look at the rifle IMMEDIATELY after the incident and before anyone Gould go finger poking and destroy the forensic evidence. Leaves us with with a simple BANG. Big loud BANG perhaps. Then an exclamation form the shooter. And now at this point, we can't actually make a real good guess. There are lots of possible causes. Here is the bottom line. Someone has a busted rifle. that someone has no clue why. Nor do we. Been some real good discussion. But now it's becoming an expired Equine.
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Are 'we' certain, that this didn't happen after a squib?
LG
It was the first rd he fired at the beginning of a stage.
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Could have been from a previous stage. I've seen it happen before.
Sure sounds like an over-pressure issue, more than OOB.
LG
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That's a good theory, but .....
The RO that ran him as well as the spotters were unaware of a miss or a squib on the previous stage that could have resulted in a stuck bullet.
Had he suffered a squib, his rifle would have been immediately checked. He was shooting fully loaded .45 Colt BP rds. Hard to overlook a squib.
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If he is a fast shooter-Very easy to miss a squib.
I'll never have that issue, as they use a Sundial to time me. ;D
LG
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A squib?? A squib with BP?? Pullese .........
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A squib?? A squib with BP?? Pullese .........
Exactly! He is a competent rifle shooter, but not a 'speed' shooter. His match pistols are a '60 Army and a Walker '47. Sound like a race gunner to you?
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Exactly! He is a competent rifle shooter, but not a 'speed' shooter. His match pistols are a '60 Army and a Walker '47. Sound like a race gunner to you?
PJ
My son shoots an unmodified Yellow boy - a '60 army and a '47 walker - all with full case blackpowder loads - somebody gave me a picture of him crankin that yellow boy - three emptys in the air and the fourth just leaving the action - I wonder could he stop in time if that third round was a squib? Interesting question huh
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I'm sorry I even mentioned the incident. Now we're down to how fast he operated the rifle. Yes, he's pretty quick, but so fast that a full house BP squib (????) wouldn't be noticed? Yeah, right ......
All the speculation and theories, especially those coming from people who haven't even read the previous comments on the topic are becoming an irritant.
Please - forget I said anything about the matter.
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PJ .... No good deed shall go unpunished .. Murphy
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I'm sorry I even mentioned the incident. Now we're down to how fast he operated the rifle. Yes, he's pretty quick, but so fast that a full house BP squib (????) wouldn't be noticed? Yeah, right ......
All the speculation and theories, especially those coming from people who haven't even read the previous comments on the topic are becoming an irritant.
Please - forget I said anything about the matter.
PJ
Please -----I was not having a go at you or your friend - just saw a bit of common ground in the firearms - have watched that boy of mine wind that yellow boy up on numerous ocasions - he dont hit real good with it at that speed but as a kid he was doctor bait because of poor hand eye co ordination - we have run a speed event at our local club ever since he got that gun as a teenager (hes 40 now) - one minute rapid fire at 25 yards, starts with gun empty and rounds on the ground - the target is a spider catching a fly - he won it a couple of times, but in all that time, nobody has got close for rounds loaded and fired in the time limit. I watch that - and - poor hand eye ! man - they had to be joking!!! My comment was just a muse based on that - I really did wonder whether he would stop in time if he fed a squib load. Same question even more so for the plink. pfftt, plink, pfftt, race gun fellers. So whatever it was about this offended you I apologise many times over, it sure was not my intent .
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Ok
After offending our good friend PJ -- I went back and read this all over again - Coffinmaker tole us ta do that several post ago but sometines ya gotta hit me with a brick -
How did I miss this from wildman ??? shoulda been printed in letters two foot high !!! We have two of these small pin guns - If this mod is doable mine will get done very soon and the other very soon after that
There is a modification for the 73's with the small or large pin retaining the firing pin extension. A set screw can be installed in the bottom of the back of the bolt that will go into a milled slot in the bottom of the firing pin extension. The retaining pin will still shear but the extension will no longer exit the back of the rifle.
wM1
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No apologies necessary. I over reacted.
The explanation of the firing pin extension seems the most likely cause, even tho' the rifle was of current manufacture.
The firing pin sure did exit the back of the rifle, just missing my wife. I don't want to witness any more such events.
They make for good palaver, and some good info gets passed around between pards.
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No apologies necessary. I over reacted.
The explanation of the firing pin extension seems the most likely cause, even tho' the rifle was of current manufacture.
The firing pin sure did exit the back of the rifle, just missing my wife. I don't want to witness any more such events.
They make for good palaver, and some good info gets passed around between pards.
Somethin had to start the process and your original surmise of some leftover titegroup in the measure hopper seems the most likely.
I checked my 66 and the setscrew idea that Wildman proposed - not easy, but is doable I think so long as that part of the bolt is soft enough to tap.
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La De Da De Da .......
Oh .... Hi :D It's me again. :o
Here is a real simple thing. Understanding that nothing is absolutely fool proof. Uberti no longer supports any parts for the Bolt/Extension rod(s) that are retained by the tiny little cross pins. Should you need parts, you must buy a "KIT" that contains a redesigned bolt, a new firing pin and return spring and a redesigned Extension Rod.
The "KIT" bolt is milled for a rocker plate, retained by the link pivot pin in the back of the bolt. The extension rod is also milled to accept the rocker plate. Very Very secure. The "KIT" retails for about 100 Bucks. No doe, just Bucks. Contact VTI Gunparts.
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Looks like it could be or has been recognized as a potential problem.
I'm glad that in the case of my friend, it didn't come to light in a Coroner's inquest.
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For those who have been following this thread, there is an article of interest in the current issue of "Handloader" magazine by Terry Wieland entitled - "Forensic Ballistics & Unsolvable Puzzles".
He mentions a couple cases where forensic analysis was unable to determine the cause. In one case, it was a Ruger #1 in .308 that blew up after 14 rds of the same ammo were fired. The powder used made it impossible to double charge without overflow. Even if a heavier bullet had been inadvertently loaded, the powder charge was within safety parameters.
In another, a .270 rd that had an enlarged primer pocket after half a dozen shots with the same ammo. The powder was a slow burning type that filled the case to capacity. All remaining bullets and ammo were checked for consistency.
In both cases, charges were weighed after being thrown by a powder measure. He is still baffled by the incidents.
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Exactly why I dip every load and check the cases for depth. If anything looks wrong most likely it is wrong.
I load on a Dillon and have a funnel in the powder die. The idea of a half pound of Gun Powder right in my face makes me nervous.
It may be slower, but it is safer.
Yes I know there is no problem using BP in a powder measure but I don't care. i have used up all my 9 lives a lond time ago.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
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Lots to ponder in this thread -- especially for one with a new Uberti 73 in .44 WCF inbound.
As to detonations, I believe none other than Mike Venturino suffered one of these some years ago with a Colt Single Action Army, but I cannot recall what his conclusion was.
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I think MV is a believer that light powder charges in big pistol cases is a no-no.
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Some nice photos in this thread!
https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/topic/283467-blown-guns-during-sass-matches/ (https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/topic/283467-blown-guns-during-sass-matches/)