Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => BROW => Topic started by: rbertalotto on May 16, 2018, 07:31:20 PM
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Finally got me a REAL Sharps. Bought it from a fantastic guy right here on this forum...THANKS DOUG!
The condition is fantastic. Much better than I expected! The barrel will be relined as the bore is trash. It is currently a 50-70 and will stay in this caliber. Barrel liner, dies, brass and bullet mold are on their way from Track Of The Wolf.
(https://images40.fotki.com/v1668/photos/2/36012/14768744/DSC01139-vi.jpg)
(https://images14.fotki.com/v1665/photos/2/36012/14768744/DSC01140-vi.jpg)
(https://images34.fotki.com/v1523/photos/2/36012/14768744/DSC01143-vi.jpg)
Now I have a million questions about it. Mostly about the mechanism that lives under the hammer. Anyone know what this all about.
(https://images53.fotki.com/v1657/photos/2/36012/14768744/DSC01138-vi.jpg)
(https://images56.fotki.com/v1664/photos/2/36012/14768744/DSC01149-vi.jpg)
Also, where can I research the serial number and maybe find a bit of history about this rifle?
Loads of pictures here:
http://public.fotki.com/Rbertalotto/things-that-go-bang/1859-sharps-carbine/ (http://public.fotki.com/Rbertalotto/things-that-go-bang/1859-sharps-carbine/)
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Actually, I did some research and the mechanism is the “Lawrence Pelley Primer System”. A far superior system to the Maynard Tape System. And the Army bought a number of rifles for th3 Berdan Sharp Shooters with this system. Could this possibly be a Berdan Sharpshooter Rifle!
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What you have there is an M1868 Conversion, the US Armys primary carbine from 1869 to 1874. The orginal carbine was either an M1863, or an M1859, you can tell by the buttplate, the 63 has no cut in the right side for a Patchbox door. 31000 of these were converted from percussion to the .50-70 cartridge in 1867-8.
The "Berdans" carried 3 band rifles.
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http://www.sharpscollector.com/portfolio/m1868-conversion-military-carbine/
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=44531
http://www.oupress.com/ECommerce/Book/Detail/1185/the%20u%20s%20%20army%20in%20the%20west%20%201870%201880
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Thank you.... great info
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That Sharps is in very nice condition. Have you decided on a ROT yet ? After boring the carbine barrel for the liner , how much wall thickness do you expect remaining at the muzzle ? Good luck with your project . ,,,DT
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The liner I ordered is 1-20 Twist
The liner is .6875 diameter and the muzzle measures .8020. This leaves me with .0572" inch of remaining original barrel thickness at the muzzle.
I'm not sure what diameter the original liner was. If the piloted drill doesn't remove it all, I might end up with a liner inside a liner inside the barrel.
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Thought it would be close , think I would drill that one half way through from each end , just to be safe .,,,DT
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Can you tell what the rifling in it now is? It may not be lined if it still has 6 groove rifling.
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It has zero rifling and a .515 bullet falls right through the bore. It actually might be an"foweler".
You can clearly see the liner at the muzzle. It was lined.
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Thats bad! Saying that, you're gonna have a lot of fun with this one. Of the 31000 converted, less than 9000 were issued, thus most you find have very good bores. That this one is in such condition indicates to me it is more likely to be one of the issue carbines.
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Strange that the exterior is in such great shape. Although I have a 1873 Winchester that is beautiful outside but the bore was a sewer pipe. Must have gotten wiped down well but the bore was neglected.
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Alrighty then! I had a friend come over to drool over the Sharps. After input from you folks and research in Frank Sellers book on Sharps Rifles, we determined it is an 1863 Sharps with an 1868 conversion.....
BUT IT IS NOT A RIFLE/CARBINE......It is a SHOTGUN!
The extractor was missing the rim of the case. And the case was a bit sloppy in the chamber. We looked into the chamber and realized that the bullet would be some distance from what we thought would be the lead. I had a 28GA shotgun shell sitting on the bench....The rim is slightly larger than a 50-70 case. And it is exactly the length to the transition of a "lead"
Viola! It fit right in, the extractor worked, and this must be why there isn't even a hint of rifling in the bore.
I cast up some .517" bullets and they drop right down the bore. The bore measures at .520"
I think I got myself a Sharps "Fowler".......
Now, at a .520" bore, do you think there is still a liner in there?
My plan is still to reline to 50-70. Last thing I need is a Sharps Shotgun!
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Hmmm, post service shotgun conversion. My guess is by the time you drill that out, there won't be any liner left. All to the good I say!
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Ah My Good Roy -
Congrats, please keep us informed of your progress!
I am glad to see you got this beauty, as it is now in the hands of someone who can definitely do it justice ( I have been following your projects, you are both prolific and well skilled compared to yours truly!)
When I first saw it I thought it was the "paper tape primer system", thanks for your identifiaction of the “Lawrence Pelley Primer System”.
http://www.berdansharpshooters.com/LawrencePelletPrimerSystem.pdf
yhs prof marvel
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I understand why you want to (re-)line the barrel so you can shoot it. The thing is, you may have a rare piece that was issued as a fowling piece. Unfortunately, although I looked at 35mm film Records of Arms and Ammunition in the Hands of the Troops, I don't recall any mention of such a piece being issued. At the time, however, I wasn't looking for the record of such a piece. It might take me awhile to go back and recheck the records, as I don't have a film reader, and will have to take time to go to the library with the films. It may be a month before I can get to it. Could you wait that long before modifying the carbine?
As to the mechanism under the hammer, that is what is left of the Lawrence pellet primer action. If you were to remove the hammer, you would see a cam groove on the inboard side of the hammer. Before conversion to cartridge (or shotshell), these were percussion-fired arms. Note the open slot in the right side of the lockplate. A number of fulminate of mercury pellets were loaded into the vertical reservoir in the top of the mechanism. (The large round-head screw was removed to open the top of the reservoir. A number of the pellets were dropped (carefully) into the opening, and the top replaced. A sliding piece with a projection on the right side that fit into the cam slot on the side of the hammer. When the trigger was pulled, the hammer flew forward, and the sliding piece was cammed forward, stripping a single primer from the stack. It flew forward just in time to be hit by the nose of the hammer, setting it off, and the resulting flame passed through a passage in the original breechblock, setting off the paper or skin cartridge! When the piece was converted to metallic cartridge, there was no need for such an arrangement, and part was removed and the nose of the hammer ground off flat. A new breechblock with an oddly-shaped firing pin was installed in the receiver. The nose of the hammer was ground off flat to hit the firing pin extension.
Another interesting thing about the Sharps conversions: When the Army issued the M1873 Trapdoor Springfield's, they recalled most, but not all the Sharps Carbines. A small number of the Sharps Carbines were retained by cavalry units in the field. These were used for target practice and so that the troops could use them to forage for game, as only 3-5 rounds of .45-70 or .45-55 ammo were allotted per man per month for target practice! There were, however, about 50,000 rounds of .50-70 ammo at Sidney Barracks, NE, alone! The Sharps were also issued to scouts and other civilian employees of the Quartermaster Dept. who accompanied the troops in the field. Co. G., 3rd Cavalry retained 5 of these Sharps when issued their Springfield Carbines, and brought them to Sidney from Ft. D.A. Russell in 1874. According to records extant, they still had them at Sidney when the Ordnance records stopped in June 1876. I researched this unit thoroughly, but do NOT recall any indication that any of the five were smoothbore. At least one utilized by a young civilian teamster was definitely rifled. Hope this is of some help and interest.
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Trail rider, thank younfor a great read. I love this type of history. I just wish these old guns could talk so we could understand their provenance. It will be some time before I receive the necessary drill to bore out the barrel.
Keep me informed if you discover anyth8n* about this carbine.
You can always reach me via email. rvb100@comcast.net
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Took the butt plate off th3 Sharps to da6 to see if it had a serial number. No serial number but someone, long ago, put a leaf under th3 butt plate. No way it could have gotten in ther3 on its own. The leaf material was just dust, but the veins were still there. Interesting! I wonder what tha5 was all about?
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Richard S. Lawrence was a designer and prolific arms manufacture from the 19th Century.
Starting with "Robbins, Kendall & Lawrence" of Windsor, VT. contract to manufacture 10,000 M-1841 Rifles for the US Gov. in 1845.
In 1848 another contract was let to "Robbins & Lawrence" for 15,000 additional arms to be completed by 1855.
During this time period, Lawrence worked closely with the Sharps Company on the new automatic pellet priming system of their M-1852 Sharps.
The English were very interested in the American System of manufacturing arms with using Interchangeable Parts. With the Crimean War going on, the Brits contacted Robbins & Lawrence to manufacture 10,000 Interchangeable Enfield's of the then Second Pattern P-1853. R & L was willing - but could not start until the US contract was finished in 1855. Upon completion of the US contract, R & L invested in setting up new tooling for the new British contract, which would have been the very first totally 100% Interchangeable Enfield in British Service!
A few arms were delivered but the Crimean War ended and the Brits canceled the order, throwing R & L into receivership. The Company failed as a result.
R S Lawrence went on to work with the Sharps Company to develop the new Pellet Primer System on the straight breech M-1859 Arms.
Lawrence also worked very closely with Spencer to help him develop the tooling he needed for mass production of his new Repeating arm.
This history is somewhat ... short, but I hope it helps?
My best,
Blair
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Thanks Blaur....great read!
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A few things.....yesterday I decided to drillout the old liner to install the new TJ liner in 50-70. My piloted bit from a PTG came in weeks earlier than expected. The 50-70 reamer has been ordered from ReamerRentals and should be here on Wednesday.
Such a large hole required only 1/8” cuts X 22”” took quite a long time,
Just as the piloted cutter broke throug the far end of the barrel, the threads on my tailstock totally stripped out and I couldn’t use the handwheel to retract the cutter! Talk about luck! So now I have a lathe repair to add to the “to do” list around here.
I ordered a long out of print book and received it the other day. The Sharps Rifle by Winston O Smith. Great little book with lots of history on the whole Sharps story.
In the book is a table of manufacturing models by serial numbers. It claims my rifle to be a “New Model 1859”....serial numbers 32833 to 73602. I’ll post a picture of this table.
(https://images47.fotki.com/v1660/photos/2/36012/14768744/scan-vi.jpg)
(https://images14.fotki.com/v1665/photos/2/36012/14768744/scan5-vi.jpg)