Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => NCOWS => Topic started by: Rafe Covington on February 16, 2018, 09:42:11 AM
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I am probably going to upset some people but I am curious. Why in the world are reduced loads allowed in NCOWS matches, we are supposed to be so authentically correct in this organization yet we are not. It's not like the loads for cartridges like 38-40, 44-40 or 45 Colt and others are heavy kickers, squib loads are not authentic.. I have never understood why this allowed.
This is not meant to attack NCOWS, this organization is a hell of a lot better than SASS.
Thanks for any answers that are given
Rafe
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Then ..... Why are you attacking NCOWS??
Many find the recoil of full cases of BP to be uncomfortable with a full day of shooting. Some shooters have also become more seasoned as the years have passed and find heavy recoil to be painful.
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Black powder loads for 44wcf and 45 colt were available with different powder charges. I believe I've read where the original government loading for the 45 revolvers was 30 grains of powder. Still not mouse fart loads but not the thundering flaming full house BP load.
I know since all my neck and shoulder issues I'm certainly not interested in shooting full house loads in a single action army. That's why I use Schofield brass in my handgun and shoot 32wcf a lot in rifle.
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Black powder loads for 44wcf and 45 colt were available with different powder charges. I believe I've read where the original government loading for the 45 revolvers was 30 grains of powder. Still not mouse fart loads but not the thundering flaming full house BP load.
I know since all my neck and shoulder issues I'm certainly not interested in shooting full house loads in a single action army. That's why I use Schofield brass in my handgun and shoot 32wcf a lot in rifle.
Thanks for information, I was not attacking NCOWS as a previous post said (not yours sir) It seems that people are not allowed to question something without being accused of attacking the organization. I am always going to ask questions, you don't ask you will never know the answer.
Take care
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It's a fair question and needs to be asked.
A lady friend of mine came to an event and watched people shooting BP loads. She was quite impressed, saying that looked like the "real west" must have been.
Then she watched some pop-gunners shooting the same stage with mouse fart loads and she actually laughed. She said- "I presume that the guy shooting the heavy BP loads gets more points, right?"
I explained that no, he was only shooting against other BP guys in the same category. She shrugged, saying - "Whatever ....." and walked away to where the BP guys were shooting.
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It is not that you can't ask questions. The problem enters in when your question is phrased in such a manner that an organization is doing it wrong. What ever the "it" is. Not everyone would agree the large capacity pistol cartridges are not heavy kickers. Squibs??
Let us also remember, it was not uncommon to find "gallery" ammunition in the time frame we portray. So it also depends on whom's definition of "Authentic" is to be used. You set yourself up.
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I have and occasionally shoot a Sharps 4 barrel derringer that was made around 1859
with an iron barrel. I shoot the lightest 22's that I can get to keep pressure down. There
are several of us in NCOWS that shoot original guns and blowing one up would sure ruin your day.
I have loaded about 3/4 black and fill with cream of wheat in a couple of old revolvers, still plenty of
boom out of a 44/40.
BTB
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I have several pre 1896 Colts that I shoot with BP on a regular basis, I use Schofield cases with a 230 gr bullet over 30 gr of 2F. I have replaced the original cylinders with 2d Gen Colt to add a margin of safety. If the weather is a bit on the cold side my hands do not work well the day after, but I like the boom and smoke.
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So far, I don't believe anyone has offered an explanation. I would guess that it was borrowed from SASS concerns for damaging targets, never mind that targets are farther away in NCOWS, and never reconsidered. I know from SASS matches and standing up front that there is a certain amount of peppering that makes one happy to have eye protection. I always balk at having to shoot pistol targets with my rifle. That is REALLY close for that kind of velocity. So far, no problem. I recall at one match last year that a 45 Colt shooter new to smokeless reloading, opened up, and many commented that, wow!, that had to be pushing the limit :>) Made you want to stand back.
Amending to add that lighter loads also enable staying on target for following shots. That is important in SASS, but I couldn't say for NCOWS, looking to attend a match someday.
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Two SASS Champs I've attended in Canada resulted in people being peppered with both shot and bullets fragments from low powered rds. The bullets from heavier loads were more frangible.
In one case, An RO had a bleeding wound on his chest and the fragment needed sharp fingernails to remove.
Another began to wear wrap around safety glasses after he picked up a fragment when his head was turned sideways to the targets.
Back in the day, many of us did not wear eye protection of any kind and I don't recall anyone getting hit by fragments.
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OK, Let us dispel this recurrent OLD WIVES TALE. Bounce Back, Back Splatter, what ever you wish to call it, is not caused by the velocity of the projectile. It matters not if the velocity is fast or slow. It matters not if the lead is cast hard or soft. Doesn't matter.
WHAT MATTERS IS PHYSICS. PERIOD. PHYSICS.
If the target is properly hung from the stand, the impacting projectile will go into the ground at the target. It WIL NOT bounce back. The bottom of the target MUST be angled AWAY from the firing line. The projectile must not arrive at a right angle. Any other deflection such as all those little ridges on rebar will re-direct. The absolute worst material for target stands is REBAR. Next in line are shotgun poppers. The face of shotgun poppers is almost always flat to the firing line as is the lower frame for the target plate. Back splatter is virtually guaranteed.
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Agreed, mostly strongly with the Coffin Maker
I've been peppered by shot , both my own and as a spotter , shotgun poppers being the culprit , in close and 90 degrees...
I don' t shoot a Shotgun in NCOWS anymore , and one reason I pass on SASS .
I have been thumped by a 45 ACP ( full factory Ammo ) hit my Boot shaft midway up my calf just below the knee.
Left a mark , both on the Boot and colorful bruise on me. Fricken rebar tripod hanger and factory lead .
I dislike close targets , and another reason I now pass of SASS
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Rafe:
I am not sure where you shoot NCOWS, but at our National Matches in IN we have 4 or 5 shooters that use light loads the rest of the field weather shooting smokeless or black use reasonable power loads. The 4 or 5 that shoot light loads are folks that are first and foremost SASS shooters and they shoot NCOWS on an irregular basis. We try to be reasonable and not turn folks away as long as they meet our level 1 requirements.
T-Joe
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I don't think I have ever shot SASS and not got hit with Back Splatter, the targets are just tooooo close.
CC
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Some of that shotgun spray may be use of magnum instead of chilled shot. I think it is counterintuitive to put it mildly that velocity and hardness have nothing to do with the problem.
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Rafe:
I am not sure where you shoot NCOWS, but at our National Matches in IN we have 4 or 5 shooters that use light loads the rest of the field weather shooting smokeless or black use reasonable power loads. The 4 or 5 that shoot light loads are folks that are first and foremost SASS shooters and they shoot NCOWS on an irregular basis. We try to be reasonable and not turn folks away as long as they meet our level 1 requirements.
T-Joe
I am not fully familuar with NCOWS but what is the "level 1 requirements"?
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Creating the Outfit, Part I:
The Basic Level
by Marlan J. Ingram
Excerpt...
" ... For clothing, you need four basic items. You need footwear, which should be square toed. If you KNOW that you want to do a later era, such as 1890s, you can go with round toe, but mind you that square toe was still in common use in the 1890s also, PLUS you can use square toe for earlier eras if you wish, so I would strongly recommend the purchase of square toe boots. Second, you will need a pair of trousers, which should NOT have zippers or belt loops. Instead, they should have suspender and fly buttons, with wool being the preferred material, although other materials are still acceptable. You will need a shirt, which should be of pullover construction, with buttons going about halfway down the front. Finally, you will need a hat, and the best advice I can give you is do NOT go to your favorite modern boot outfitter or country-western outfitter looking for a hat. Instead, you will want to start with something flat brimmed and opened crowned, until you can do further research and find a particular blocking (hat shape) that is historically correct, and works for you.
Once you have those items in place, you will need correct firearms. Colt Single Action Army revolvers are always a good choice. Uberti is the preferred manufacturer, and get bullseye ejector heads if you can. Shortly, I will give you a short list of reference books which will help you better understand some of the nuances of early vs. late model Colts. You will need a rifle, and the 1873 Winchester is always a good choice, as is the 1866 Winchester. Once again, if you KNOW that you want to do 1890s, an 1892 Winchester is fine, but just like the boots, the 1873 Winchester was still in common usage in the 1890s. You will need a good shotgun, and a good double barrel would be my first choice. Once again, just like the boots and the 1873 Winchester, if you know that you wish to do an 1890s impression, then you can consider an 1887 Lever Action Shotgun, or even an 1897 pump. However, if you have not yet picked out a persona and/or a time frame, remember an early firearm or accouterment will still work for a later impression, but the reverse is not true. Purchasing an earlier style item may save you a little grief and money in the long run. For your revolvers, you will need correct leather gear. If you have purchased Colt Single Action Army revolvers, then Mexican Loop holsters are the most popular way to carry them. Finally, to carry your ammo around at a match, I would recommend purchasing a pair of saddlebags. If you don't want to spring for those yet, something as simple as a canvas sack will suffice. Now, I've kept this very simple, and very basic. The idea is to purchase the basic items that you need, but without going overboard. The idea is to also purchase the RIGHT clothing, armament, and accouterments the first time, so that you don't later have to replace an incorrect item. For example, if you showed up at your first NCOWS event with your new Ruger Super Blackhawk revolvers and low slung fast draw rigs, you would very quickly find that you had made a mistake, .....
I suggest you visit http://ncows.com/resources.html
There you will find Marlan J. Ingram's article ...
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Major: In Addition to what Major 2 posted, we allow a new comer 1 year to get his kit to level 1.
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That doesn't 'splain why you often find perfectly mushroomed .38 bullets on the ground beneath steel targets whereas more warmly loaded bullets have splattered. I have also witnessed low powered bullets bouncing off wooden props or barely sticking in the wood, easy to pick off with your fingers.
I built a wooden "bobber" out of 2x4s, holding the arm up with a "pepper popper" that put it in motion. Over the course of the two day event, the 2x4 was well splattered with lead fragments and there were several mushroomed bullets at the base of the "pepper popper".
Some of the low powered rds took two and even three rds to activate the "bobber", usually because of low hits or hits on the edge.
We disallowed protests as we had calibrated the "bobber" to activate using a 4-3/4" revolver and factory .38 Spl. ammo.
OK, Let us dispel this recurrent OLD WIVES TALE. Bounce Back, Back Splatter, what ever you wish to call it, is not caused by the velocity of the projectile. It matters not if the velocity is fast or slow. It matters not if the lead is cast hard or soft. Doesn't matter.
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That doesn't 'splain why you often find perfectly mushroomed .38 bullets on the ground beneath steel targets whereas more warmly loaded bullets have splattered. I have also witnessed low powered bullets bouncing off wooden props or barely sticking in the wood, easy to pick off with your fingers.
PJ
The splatterability (just made that one up) of a boolit has more to do with alloy composition than the speed its travelling - you can really stoke a soft lead projectile and it remains coheshive on impact at the same time as it deforms nicely (perfectly mushroomed ?) - the harder alloys dont do this near as well
From my reading of these forums it seems to me there is a fascination in your country for hard cast lead boolits which I do not understand at all - maybe has something to do with a lot of semi commercial casting ? - soft lead boolits are more difficult to produce quickly in quantity (by casting) .. The old timers shot soft lead and they made targets we still struggle to duplicate today with the same equipment.
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Most do shoot commercial bullets which tend to be hard cast. It's the BP shooters that tend to cast their own out of softer alloy.
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KLANG (The Bell Rings) ROUND 2
Cash Creek: The reason you get hit with Bounce Back at all those SASS matches is Pee Poor target design, and Abomdable Target Stands. The target hanger should not stick through a hole in the target and then forma hook. It will cause bounce back. A target plate hanging from a hook will hang vertical (bounce back). Target stands should not have right angles and lumpy bumps (Rebar). If you want to see how targets and stands should be made, visit "Arntzen Targets." Remember however, shotgun poppers will generate bounce back no matter who makes them. It has nothing to do with the type of shot. It has to do with the Physics of Motion.
Roscoe: It is all driven by the Physics of Motion. If you find that counterintuitive, it simply means your intuition is wrong. This is not the forum to teach Physics. I suggest you visit the library. Check out a book on the Physics of Motion and couple that with a smattering of Ballistics. A little education can do wonders for ignorance.
It is ever amazing to me how SASS/CAS groups will spend a ton of money to build facade(s) and a BBQ Pit but are too cheap to buy or make decent targets. Oh, also, having your spent bullets deflecting DOWN into GRAVEL, will also cause those bullets/fragments to come back atcha. Bare dirt is mo bedda.
PJ: Bullet lead changes it properties under impact. A soft lead alloy acts more like a liquid and "flows." Smooshes out flat. Makes cutesy jewelry. Hard case contains more tin and antimony. Tin and antimony do not "flow." Tin and antimony fragment. Bullet fragments will look more crystalline. Mushroomed bullets look gooey. Bullet fragments go in the same directions as mushroomed bullets when impacting a sloped surface. If that surface is at negative camber at the base, the projectile deflects DOWN.
And YES!!! Those whom tend to utilize that heathen fad smokeless propellants usually shoot Hard Cast Lead bullets. Higher alloy content tend to fill out the mould better and give a prettier, shiny bullet compared to soft or pure lead. Harder alloys were in answer to those who wanted to achieve higher velocities without jacket'd bullets. Round balls on the other hand, don't need to be pretty. Just kinda ... well.. Round. Soft/Pure lead is also easier to stuff inna chamber.
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KLANG (The Bell Rings) ROUND 2
Roscoe: It is all driven by the Physics of Motion. If you find that counterintuitive, it simply means your intuition is wrong. This is not the forum to teach Physics. I suggest you visit the library. Check out a book on the Physics of Motion and couple that with a smattering of Ballistics. A little education can do wonders for ignorance.
Your arrogance is breathtaking.
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Your arrogance is breathtaking.
wow.
Roscoe, (newby) , with 53 posts ,
calling
Coffinmaker (Hivernaught, Retired Gunsmith, with more than 4400 posts ) and DECADES of SASS shooting experience
arrogant.
that is amazing.
Around here, Roscoe, we call it
hard won experience and an intolerance for igorance.
I myself will only touch on the variety of reasons for splatter, ricochet and bounce back.
metallurgical composition
metallurgical elasticity
metallurgical deformation in dynamic interactions
hardness vs brittleness versus , well everything
conservation of momentum
dynamics and physics of impacts between elastic and inellastic bodies
I could go on, but, yes, it is "higher level physics"
much of it *is* counterintuitive
unless you have an advanced degree (or the equivalent experience) in physics and metallurgy and dynamic impacts then
yes, more study is recommended.
-and actually you have been given A LARGE NUMBER of good reasons to your original question.
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oh, and by the way, whilst Will Ketchum is the NCOWS mod here, Coffin, Major2, and I are also mods and you are very close to "being nasty" and you may officially consider this a warning.
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yhs
prof marvel
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wow.
Roscoe, (newby) , with 53 posts ,
calling
Coffinmaker (Hivernaught, Retired Gunsmith, with more than 4400 posts ) and DECADES of SASS shooting experience
arrogant.
that is amazing.
Around here, Roscoe, we call it
hard won experience and an intolerance for igorance.
Professor
I may have to adjustify my thinking some - I thought ole coffinmaker might have enjoyed that - ;D -- like - jeez!! I got his attention didnt I --- breathtakingly arrogant is a whole different deal than just plain old nasty arrogant - breathtaking is kinda special ya know. It takes finesse to do breathtaking ;) If hes really offended I'll make him a cup of coffee ..............
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Oh yes perhaps coffin was really having fun, and i may be the one who needs more coffee
Yhs pf mvl
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I think the best point to be observed from this is we've all been hit by splatter, whether at the range or on social media. And it's uncomfortable when it happens.
And whatever load you shoot that feels comfortable and keeps you in the game, is the perfect load.
RCJ :)
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I think the best point to be observed from this is we've all been hit by splatter, whether at the range or on social media. And it's uncomfortable when it happens.
And whatever load you shoot that feels comfortable and keeps you in the game, is the perfect load.
RCJ :)
Hear hear
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I think the best point to be observed from this is we've all been hit by splatter, whether at the range or on social media. And it's uncomfortable when it happens.
And whatever load you shoot that feels comfortable and keeps you in the game, is the perfect load.
RCJ :)
That part was interesting - anybody got hit by splatter at a range downunder and it got to the ears of the powers - that range is closed - no quarer given - you might get the range licence back ifn ya take care of the problem - but ya got a lot of convincing to do first