Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => NCOWS => Topic started by: Templar on October 16, 2017, 10:17:12 AM
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Captain Quigley here,
I have been a NCOWS member longer than I can remember. Joined even when the closest NCOWS shoot was a days drive from Colorado. Enjoyed what you(we) stood for and the magazine, even though I could not participate. BTW, I am also a SASS member, have been for decades. I have since moved to SC and have brought in 2 new members to NCOWS.
I would like to ask all the Territorial Congress members what providence they used to approve the Two Handed shooting method as being period correct. I read in every Shootist on how we pride ourselves on "Authenticity", "Old West Spirit", and Reenacting, per the black page of the Shootist. We frequently see on the front cover a member using a two handed grip. As a 20+ year veteran of Civil War and Indian wars cavalry, I am fairly well versed in period correct authencity and the historical research used to justify the equipment , and procedures we use. I have never seen or read a single incidence where a two handed revolver hold was taught or documented. Well, there was Mattie holding that horse pistol in True Grit, but a single incidence does not document common usage . :o
Now ya'll went and combined this "Creative Anachnorism" into the same class as the members who use a single handed hold as was done in the times we portray.
What has happened here? While you constantly berate SASS, you have allowed, no preferred, the same speed shooting method that the "Fastest" shooters use to win their Top Competitor competitions. There is no way the average duelist shooter can match the speed of a two handed shooting method. Were the two handed Gamers not winning enough awards to fuel their egos?
Yes, yes...you passed this change off as a method to reduce they number of classes.
Well, here is a suggestion. Eliminate the two handed shooting method, except for the young, weak or infirm. Eliminate this two handed anachronism from all shoots (except for Mattie) and truly and authentically represent the Old West we claim to portray.
Just my humble opinions and suggestion from this life long cowboy, historian, and cavalry reenact.
Captain Quigley
NCOWS L-131
aka: Terry Guriel
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[Bruce Dern used two hands to shoot John Wayne in the back in The Cowboys.]
But other than that..... ::)
Books
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Well Captain .....
I'm NOT a lifelong member of NCOWS although I soon will be a member of NCOWS and I take some exception to your dissertation. Since you weren't personally there, do you really portend that enterprising folks did not nor never gripped their pistol with two hands?? Let us take note ..... the creator of all gave us TWO good hands with which to grasp our PISTOLS. Why would those in the position of protecting life and limb NOT take advantage of that free hand??
I do understand, the thought of gripping your pistol with two hand is personally annoying to you, suggesting an entire shooting fraternity be subjected to your particular ideas seems somewhat self aggrandizing. Especially considering, you weren't personally there in witness as it twer.
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Well Mr. Coffinmaker,
We are all allowed our opinion, thus is yours.
No none of us living presently were personally there. All we can do is look at the surviving photographs and read the documents (such as they are) to get a an idea of what was commonly done.
The cardinal run of authentic reenacting is that if you can't document what was used, how used, or commonly done, then it is inappropriate to do or use. That is the primary tenant of authentic reenacting. Just because they may have done it if they could, does not mean they did. I'm not saying, no one never ever held a revolver with two hands. I'm saying that it was not common and as such does not belong as major classification of shooters.
Since you don't know me, your use of the term "self aggrandizing" is not only totally ignorant, but also a ploy to shut down those who are different than you. These are the tactics employed by the folks who follow Saul Allensky.
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It can be argued that Bill Hickok used 2 hands when he shot Dave Tutt in Springfield, Missouri July 21 1865. The description of it said something about Wild Bill bracing his revolver with his left hand when he took the shot at something like 70 yards. I didn't look up the exact account but that's close.
I personally prefer to shoot one handed and when I was in the Marines we had to qualify one handed in the early 60s but that changed before my hitch was up.
Will Ketchum
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If you were supposed to use two hands Sam Colt would have put two handles on them... ;D
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WOW :o Must have hit a Nerve ::)
No intent at all to deny you your particular opine. More than welcome to shoot one handed. More than welcome to express your opinion. On the other hand, suggesting everybody should be required to do it "your way" and accusing those whom find your position to be just a mite "High Handed" of being "Radicals" is akin to describing those who disagree as being Heretics.
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A point of issue Sir...
You wrote.... " What has happened here? While you constantly berate SASS "
Where ? how ? does NCOWS or the membership at large berate SASS.... either constantly or passively ?
I'm am NCOWS member, past Senator and National Judge , Mounted Reenactor for 30+ years , Past SASS member 1992-2003.
I'm not naive , know SASS & NCOWS are DIFFERENT ,,, that difference is what drew me to NCOWS ...but I don't believe
anyone in NCOWS constantly berates SASS.
That is a mighty statement :-\
I shoot Duelist , I prefer it , I've shot two handed back in my early SASS years because I shot factory 45 Colt in 7.5 inch Old Model Vaquero's , seemed prudent to do so for control.
as to Maddie Ross & her Colt's Dragoon or nasty Bruce Derns dirty deed ...
nether hold a candle to the Late great James Coburn's "Britt" in Magnificent 7
not saying it was period correct but it was Magnificent :)
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Howdy all,
I'm not an NCOWS shooter, but I appreciate authenticity. I shoot one handed in sass in the one-handed classes. Rather than debate whether the old timers ever (never, always, often) shot with two hands (even though we know that two-handed was probably a rarity, typically for long, slow aimed shots), I would point out the basic unfairness of having one-handers compete against two-handers in the same class (if that's what they are doing). Even sass (known for being a little fast and loose with authenticity) separates the two styles.
Reverend Chase
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Howdy all,
I'm not an NCOWS shooter,....
Reverend Chase
and there you have it ;)
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Major 2. Howdy Sir.
Might I suggest that you read the back cover of nearly every Shootist magazine.
Are you saying that these comments are not directed at SASS:
1. "Tired of too close and too big:
2. "Tired of equipment race"
3. "Ready for more authenticity"
4. "Like real shooting competition"
Well sir. If those statements are not directed at SASS. I'll be a Dandy.
Now, I'm not defending SASS. They are a business that is in business to make money. Nothing wrong with that.
I still shoot with and belong to both groups.
Just think NCOWS should have higher standards.
IMHO
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My grand father died in the 1960's at almost 90 years old. His only revolver was a top break .44 S&W. I remember him shooting his revolver always one handed with the elbow bent.
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Attached is a couple of turn of the 20th century photos of some of the top pistol shooting competitors. I believe the guy in the middle of the second photo is E. E. Partridge: I think he invented a target sight for pistols.
Books
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Well Captain .....
I'm NOT a lifelong member of NCOWS although I soon will be a member of NCOWS and I take some exception to your dissertation. Since you weren't personally there, do you really portend that enterprising folks did not nor never gripped their pistol with two hands?? Let us take note ..... the creator of all gave us TWO good hands with which to grasp our PISTOLS. Why would those in the position of protecting life and limb NOT take advantage of that free hand??
I do understand, the thought of gripping your pistol with two hand is personally annoying to you, suggesting an entire shooting fraternity be subjected to your particular ideas seems somewhat self aggrandizing. Especially considering, you weren't personally there in witness as it twer.
Whats goin on here boys ??? two handed versus one handed ?? thats two separate classes / events surely ?? I plink at our local (Aussie) pistol club to keep meself legal with pistols - in normal competition if ya grip two handed ya is disqualified - when we shoot a full match and I get to the rapid fire part wid me little ruger single action the boys are ok wid me doin two hands cuz they all shootin semi autos wid orthopedic grips - but If I won they might change their minds and if I shot a good enough score to break grade I might want to disqualify that score myself -- I am an outsider to this argyment but -- two hands is open class - one hand is a special catygory - lettin two hands in a one hand category is BS - if that happened somebody just got screwed !!!!!
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The solution to all of this is to give up caring whether someone shoots faster than you, regardless of hold style.
There is no rule that says you can't shoot one-handed if signed up for two-hand style. I like the option of being able to bring my offhand up to steady my aim when going after those pesky little knockdown cowboys at our range. If it's a larger pistol target, or a "dump" target, then I will get some practice in shooting duelist.
I'm just shy of two decades shooting NCOWS in matches hosted all across the country, but I can count on the digits of both hands and one foot, the number of members who are consistently totally authentic.
I am sure most of the new blood signing up for NCOWS membership are those who are escaping from the "race guns shot as fast as possible to be competitive"-bent, and not enticed by authenticity. No need to shame people who shoot how they've been introduced to the hobby and feel safer using two hands.
People's participation is more important than what handhold style they prefer. NCOWS will start hemorrhaging membership if we alienate two-handed shooters.
THAT we cannot afford to do.
RCJ
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Thanks for the warm welcome Major,
Thought I had a point, but not being an NCOWS shooter, I should have saved my thought for some other part of the forum. Really makes me want to search out an NCOWS chapter in the Northeast.
Reverend Chase
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My grand father died in the 1960's at almost 90 years old. His only revolver was a top break .44 S&W. I remember him shooting his revolver always one handed with the elbow bent.
AHH thanks for that !!! I shoot my cowboy pistols at the "proper pistol club" --- elbows bent -- I dont do so bad when I try - the guys used to coach me to shoot stiff arm - always resisted that - it was not comfortable with the standard colt grip - I had an EMF 44/40 that I had tuned up myself and was doing quite well with until little johhny arsehol er howards buyback claimed it - a couple weeks before the hand in I took it to the club and shot till I was tired of it (had a heap of ammo loaded for pistol) there were some spare targets up and mr club hotshot wandered in (the guy with his name on all the boards for winners - hes a good guy I hasten to add) have a shot - its goin to the crusher soon - ok - he picked up 3rounds - fill it up! - nah three is ok - I watched him load (unfamiliar gun so you watch) he fires one - ooh that kicks - nah dont kick - (how would a 44/40 with a standard pistol load kick?) - nuther shot - then another - he unloads caefully and hands it back safe - thanks - n off he goes --- now there is a kid watching all this (a young feller about 16 that liked ths look of my pistol) so we wander down range to take the targets down - as we approach we are both squinting at the clean target our friend shot at - looking for 44 callibre holes - cept they not there!! ---- our best club shooter has just clean missed the paper three times with my ole hogleg at 25 yards!!! my young mate has got this kinda bemused grin on him ---- well that is interesting - I said I guarantee if he hands me any of his guns the way he shoots em I will put it on paper - might not do well but .......... funny thing ..... the grip and stance coaching stopped right there!!
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I'll throw my floppy hat into the ring. I've only ever shot duelist in sass, Wild Bunch or WASA matches, period. My WASA club matches are so small, 15 or so shooters, that we only list scores with no categories. The WB club does the same thing as only a dozen of Pike's gang show up but if I was at a good sized sass match I would be very upset to be grouped with two handed shooters. I would be less upset being grouped with younger duelists than modern shooters my age. Maybe before I die I will get to a GAF or NCOWS match but if I do yer dern tootin I'll be shootin the 'correct' goldern way. IM dagnabbit O, you whippersnappers ( thought I'd get into my Gabby 'pression).
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As the name of this post is authenticity, I'd like to suggest our Originals class, I joined it for the
first time this year. It was very fun digging up history about my character, a buffalo hunter in 1875.
in this class you have to shoot 1 handed. We probably all realize that almost all pistol shooting in the
old west was 1 handed, but RCJ made a great point, that if we were to disallow 2 handed shooting
we could very well alienate a lot of our members. I have a smith & Wesson DA and a Merwin DA, that I
really don't feel comfortable/safe shooting 1 handed. Remember, we are a democratic organization, if
members don't like the rules WE can change them next March at the Congress meeting.
BTB Senator
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Major 2. Howdy Sir.
Might I suggest that you read the back cover of nearly every Shootist magazine.
Are you saying that these comments are not directed at SASS:
1. "Tired of too close and too big:
2. "Tired of equipment race"
3. "Ready for more authenticity"
4. "Like real shooting competition"
Well sir. If those statements are not directed at SASS. I'll be a Dandy.
Now, I'm not defending SASS. They are a business that is in business to make money. Nothing wrong with that.
I still shoot with and belong to both groups.
Just think NCOWS should have higher standards.
IMHO
"Might I suggest that you read the back cover of nearly every Shootist magazine."
I do, and I often contribute articles ....
" Are you saying that these comments are not directed at SASS:
1. "Tired of too close and too big:
2. "Tired of equipment race"
3. "Ready for more authenticity"
4. "Like real shooting competition"
Never said anything of a sort ....Didn't write the ad nor do I think it was written to berate another discipline.
"I still shoot with and belong to both groups."
that is cool ...
"Just think NCOWS should have higher standards ."
I agree ....
now having said that .... I've mentioned I shoot duelist (single handed)
but I do not cast aspersions on anyone who chooses to use both hands ....
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Thanks for the warm welcome Major,
Thought I had a point, but not being an NCOWS shooter, I should have saved my thought for some other part of the forum. Really makes me want to search out an NCOWS chapter in the Northeast.
Reverend Chase
Not sure I did , But I do now, I gladly offer your a warm welcome should you try NCOWS....
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Major 2:
Ya'll missing my point here.
I don't give a hoot wether you shoot one handed or two.
The problem I am trying to elucidate on is the recent change to combine the two handed shooters with the one handed in the same category. . While you are concerned with offending the two handed shooters, you seem to be okay with brushing aside the duelist.
The most recent Shootist magazine is trying to gather support for the national and regional shoots. Why would any duelist pay to play with a group who is okay with handicapping them in the competition? The reality is that most of us "normal" folks do not stand a chance in a competition with a two handed shooter . Look, I shoot in SASS with two handed folks who routinely have stage times in the 15 to 20 seconds as two handed shooters, while during the same stage I shoot in the 35 to 40 seconds as a duelist. I don't care, they are in a different class. As a retiree on a fixed income, I would never attend an NCOWS match where I pay extra to play, have travel, hotel and meal expenses all for the pleasure of having no chance to compete equally.
All I'm saying is the recent change to combine the two hand grippers with the duelist shooters is unfair to the duelist. Will you not agree or will you still deny this impact on duelist shooters?
BTW: I seem to have read that the duelist "Black Powder" shooters still have their own category . Looks like this "Special Interest" group had enough LOBBYISTs' that they are unaffected by this most recent rule change. Funny how this mimics our own present politicians in Washington.
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I think you over stated your point , and at least to me , "Authenticity" it seemed to reflect the historic accuracy aspect....
Now you are clearer, you do not care for the latest Rules structure ...
Frankly, you are not an "ISLAND" ..... many have expressed the same ... read the letters to the Ed. in our Shootist...
truth is , I shot Smokeless Duelist....
" I seem to have read that the duelist "Black Powder" shooters still have their own category " you are correct
you say " I would never attend an NCOWS match where I pay extra to play, have travel, hotel and meal expenses all for the pleasure of having no chance to compete equally."
Better to join those that would write or support an amendment to correct Smokeless Duelist vs smokeless or BP two handed shooters.
I will, in the mean time shoot duelist "Black Powder".
join the movement , don't boycott :)
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join the movement , don't boycott :)
I like that, sir.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Benjamin_Franklin_-_Join_or_Die.jpg/320px-Benjamin_Franklin_-_Join_or_Die.jpg)
yhs
prof marvel
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http://www.revolver1873.fr/1873-marine.php
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/attachments/world-firearms/547574d1375374460-webley-scott-455-1913-mki-n-navy-automatic-pistol-002.jpg?s=d232380007e2a46157b228d387fc3711
https://ospreypublishing.com/the-webley-service-revolver
Two handed shooting is not historically correct, period.
on the other side.... ISSF Rapid Fire shooters....one hand...5 shots in 4 seconds...25 meters....living proof that one hand shooting is probably faster and allways more accurate.. (if they dont hit the 10, 2" circle, then it is scored as a "miss").
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=if-Iqv_FKaU
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I shoot only NCOWS matches, have been for sometime now and I can't say as I've seen to many 15-20 second two handed shooters at a match, be it local or a major match.
Matter of fact a one handed shooter won the Men's 2 gun class at the recent NCOWS Eastern Regional.
If you want change submit a proposal and attend congress to speak for said proposal.
Regards
JW
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I shoot only NCOWS matches, have been for sometime now and I can't say as I've seen to many 15-20 second two handed shooters at a match, be it local or a major match.
Matter of fact a one handed shooter won the Men's 2 gun class at the recent NCOWS Eastern Regional.
If you want change submit a proposal and attend congress to speak for said proposal.
Regards
JW
Thought I would take another shot at this
I dont shoot you guys events but I have shot a single action pistol often enough and long enough to know for sure that in a competition event - yeah something where there is a prize for winning or at least some kind of kudos/acknowledgement - a competition event where you put two handed shooters in the same class as one handed shooters - again - somebody just got screwed !!!! - the one hand shooter just got hisself a serious handicap - yeah some individuals are good enough to win things off a handicap (golf thrives on that idea) ..... a lot of this depends on how things is writ and in which direction stuff got changed.
If it was always open class (two hands) and some dude thinks he can do it one hand better - who cares! .......If one hand got cancelled cuz of lack of patronage - too,bad. .......but two handed duelist?????? nah that would be BS .
cheers Greyhawk
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I'll not say any more about the authenticity of shooting with two hands. I will comment on the necessity to have such an option. We have many shooters who would be physically unable to participate if we limited our shooters to shooting duelist. We do the best we can to be as authentic as we are able given the constraints of living in the 21st Century.
We could carry the authenticity to an extreme and not allow shooters over a certain age because we can't document and gunfights that involved persons that old.
We are still a sport. One where we want as many people as possible to participate. In the past we have had shooters confined to wheel chairs that were obviously of modern design. Yes we did have some people complain but not only was it a legal requirement to allow them to shoot but also a moral one. With all that said I also disagree with combining the 2 shooting styles in the same class. We haven't done so since the very earliest days of our organization. If I were still a member of the congress I would have stood in opposition to such a change but I'm not.
All that is needed to go back is for every member to contact their representative and to express their displeasure. As the good Major said we are a member ran group.
Will Ketchum
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Interesting to see how the smoke blew on this subject.
Seems quite a few of you are very concerned about alienating the two handed shooter.
BUT, looks like very few cared about alienating the duelist shooter.
The Territorial Congress voted to combine all the duelists and two handed shooters into the same competition classes (except for Traditional black powder). They made the rules and they will live with the consequences.
As for this cowboy, I think I'll just saddle up and ride down the trail.
Captain Quigley
NCOWS L-131
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Captain Quigley here,
I have been a NCOWS member longer than I can remember. Joined even when the closest NCOWS shoot was a days drive from Colorado. Enjoyed what you(we) stood for and the magazine, even though I could not participate. BTW, I am also a SASS member, have been for decades. I have since moved to SC and have brought in 2 new members to NCOWS.
I would like to ask all the Territorial Congress members what providence they used to approve the Two Handed shooting method as being period correct. I read in every Shootist on how we pride ourselves on "Authenticity", "Old West Spirit", and Reenacting, per the black page of the Shootist. We frequently see on the front cover a member using a two handed grip. As a 20+ year veteran of Civil War and Indian wars cavalry, I am fairly well versed in period correct authencity and the historical research used to justify the equipment , and procedures we use. I have never seen or read a single incidence where a two handed revolver hold was taught or documented. Well, there was Mattie holding that horse pistol in True Grit, but a single incidence does not document common usage . :o
Now ya'll went and combined this "Creative Anachnorism" into the same class as the members who use a single handed hold as was done in the times we portray.
What has happened here? While you constantly berate SASS, you have allowed, no preferred, the same speed shooting method that the "Fastest" shooters use to win their Top Competitor competitions. There is no way the average duelist shooter can match the speed of a two handed shooting method. Were the two handed Gamers not winning enough awards to fuel their egos?
Yes, yes...you passed this change off as a method to reduce they number of classes.
Well, here is a suggestion. Eliminate the two handed shooting method, except for the young, weak or infirm. Eliminate this two handed anachronism from all shoots (except for Mattie) and truly and authentically represent the Old West we claim to portray.
Just my humble opinions and suggestion from this life long cowboy, historian, and cavalry reenact.
Captain Quigley
NCOWS L-131
aka: Terry Guriel
First you can't eliminate two handed shooting all together. There are too many people that may not even be comfortable shooting one handed even if they wanted to.
It's much better than when I started NCOWS. Then ALL two gun shooters except for Originals were allowed two handed. We then separated the categories in every way and people complained about too many categories. Now we have a complaint about this. We can only try to keep everyone happy and invite input. I do feel the way it is divided now pretty much covers it from an authenticity standpoint. This is how I thought working cowboy should have been divided from the start. I suppose there is the short period in which early smokeless propellants came about during the NCOWS time period but how widespread available did they really become throughout the west before 1899 and it was not available for reloading. Hand reloading kits for cartridges were not uncommon. Therefore it's possible just as many people may have been using two hands as were shooting smokeless powder. And to my understanding the early smokeless powders were not so smokeless.
My point in that is if you want to use authenticity as a reason to shoot one handed then you probably should be considering black powder to go along with it in which the argument is mute. Hence the traditional and open shooting categories.
Also if you come actually shoot one of our events you'll find accuracy and getting on target is more of a factor than quick cocking the hammer. A one handed shooter just won the NCOWS Eastern regional in the two gun open category. I have found (and it depends on the wind) that black powder on average is more of a hindrance to time because of losing sight of the targets.
Regarding authenticity, one of the few stand in the street face off gunfights to really be documented to ever happen, Hickock was reported to have supported his pistol with his off arm or hand. If for sure he did or how he did it we will never know.
Edit, you probably should just consider shooting real gun powder anyway because I'm thinking this smokeless powder thing is just a fad that will soon fade out. ;D
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..... As for this cowboy, I think I'll just saddle up and ride down the trail.
Captain Quigley
NCOWS L-131
Sorry to see that, the movement, should there be one to address changing the combined Duelist & two handed , might have welcomed the support
:-\
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Interesting to see how the smoke blew on this subject.
Seems quite a few of you are very concerned about alienating the two handed shooter.
BUT, looks like very few cared about alienating the duelist shooter.
The Territorial Congress voted to combine all the duelists and two handed shooters into the same competition classes (except for Traditional black powder). They made the rules and they will live with the consequences.
As for this cowboy, I think I'll just saddle up and ride down the trail.
Captain Quigley
Not my argyment but I stuck me nose in it anyways - seems like a simple fix here - fill er up with black - (REAL GUNPOWDER) - no mousefart loaded , limp wristed, two handed duellists allowed there - the real quigley shot black cuz there warnt nuthin else - once ya get the hang of it ya wont go back to that - pop - clink - pop - 2 grains of powder BS ;D
NCOWS L-131
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I don't know, it seems pretty simple to me. If you shoot duelist and you don't want to compete against the shootists, shoot black powder. If you really want to shoot smokeless, shoot shootist.
Myself I don't see the big deal about the plaque, certificate or whatever. I mean, I just want to be the best I can be. I've won several state, regional, national and even a world title in different disciplines, but every time I go out shooting, I'm really just shooting against myself. If just it's all about bringing home hardware, that's setting yourself up for disappointment. You know when you didn't shoot well. And you know when you did. You don't need a trophy to tell the difference.
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PLUS ONE to Pitspitr
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As Will Ketchum said - they try to please as many as possible. But you can't please everyone.
He also said - go to your representative. beat the drum about your concern.
In other words, if you really want some change , one must actively work for change.
Myself I don't see the big deal about the plaque, certificate or whatever. I mean, I just want to be the best I can be. I've won several state, regional, national and even a world title in different disciplines, but every time I go out shooting, I'm really just shooting against myself. If just it's all about bringing home hardware, that's setting yourself up for disappointment. You know when you didn't shoot well. And you know when you did. You don't need a trophy to tell the difference.
THIS ^^^
like all shooting sports NCOWS is just another game.
that bears repeating: JUST ANOTHER GAME
for so many of us, JUST GETTING TO PLAY, and get out and shoot, and enjoy meeting the people and the the costumes
is the WHOLE THING. The folks running the game have totry to work in as many people as possible, and that includes
one-handed shooters, and crippled old guys that still want to shoot!
If one is soooooo competitive that one will leave the sport if they "can't level the playing field" because some poor old codger is allowed to shoot with two hands, then isn't the problem in their own head?
None of us could compete with a Bob Mundum or Ed McGivern, nor can we compete with Olympic runners. Should that sour
you so much that youwould quit? I should hope not.
I myself use to shoot "Bowling Pins" , PPC , IPSC, etc etc. but I soured on that. Even then I knew there would be different "tiers" of shooters... I could aspire to reaach the top half, then the top third, but I would never make it far. What finally soured me was
the extreme gadgetry, no "as issued" class, and he fact that speed was everything.
Now I shoot as slow as I llike, CAS Percussion C&B using BP or subs.... WHEN I CAN GET OUT!
and I myself tell the timer - "don't worry about me, just slap me on the shoulder when its time to start and be preparred for some
looooong times... " I even joke about "competing for last place".
Lately all I can do is steal an hour once or twice a month at the indoor range in town, and shoot smokeless out of conversion cylinders. But I am enjoying my revovlers, and at least I am still refining my kit & outfit at home, still shooting, and I get to enjoy the commaraderie and company of you folks here on CAS City no matter how vicarious it may be.
I posted earlier, "divided we die" and it's true. Sad but true.
but when one finds a game no longer enjoyable , perhaps it is time to quit and find something else that won't blow one's gasket.
Life is already too short to have a stroke over a game.
yhs
prof marvel
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EXACTLY!
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Interesting to see how the smoke blew on this subject.
Seems quite a few of you are very concerned about alienating the two handed shooter.
BUT, looks like very few cared about alienating the duelist shooter.
The Territorial Congress voted to combine all the duelists and two handed shooters into the same competition classes (except for Traditional black powder). They made the rules and they will live with the consequences.
As for this cowboy, I think I'll just saddle up and ride down the trail.
Captain Quigley
NCOWS L-131
At the 2016 National shoot when everything was separated there was only one person to shoot 3 gun smokeless duelist and that person shoots black powder quite often so would have just as easily shot the current traditional category.
There was also one person to shoot the four gun smokeless duelist.
There were four people that shot the 2 gun smokeless duelist and the top two of those would have been first and second in the shootist category.
Keep in mind these are just the mandatory classes required to be offered, your posse can add categories at your regular shoots if your members choose to do so.
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Professor Marvel. I must bow to your eloquence. I'm trying to come up with a way to say it better but I just can't. I well remember those halcyon days of yesteryear when I chased the Brass Ring. Now I just chase a soft roll of toilette paper. There are some extenuating circumstances (who cares) but is just so really nice those days where I can get out with friends, bust some caps and enjoy the day.
It is, after all JUST A GAME. To be played by each at his or her own level. Some have attached some mystical importance to winning. I have attached mystical importance to joining others for biscuits-n-gravy, shooting up a gob of powder and swapping lies. Let none of us forget ..... IT IS JUST A GAME. Let us PLAY.
I use to finish my safety briefings (I were a safety officer) with: IF YOU CAN'T HAVE FUN ....... GO HOME.
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I don't know, it seems pretty simple to me. If you shoot duelist and you don't want to compete against the shootists, shoot black powder. If you really want to shoot smokeless, shoot shootist.
Seems like this just needs some thought and a bit of tidying up - personally I would be seriously un sympathetic to someone complaining about authenticity while shooting smokeless - pffft tink loads.
Myself I don't see the big deal about the plaque, certificate or whatever. I mean, I just want to be the best I can be. I've won several state, regional, national and even a world title in different disciplines, but every time I go out shooting, I'm really just shooting against myself. If just it's all about bringing home hardware, that's setting yourself up for disappointment. You know when you didn't shoot well. And you know when you did. You don't need a trophy to tell the difference.
not meaning to be nasty here so dont take it that way -----Have heard that latter statement A LOT!! always from some one who has been good enough at the game to make the elite grade and almost always accompanied by a short accounting of achievements (as herein stated above) - if you were an average punter who tries really hard every time he goes out and never quite makes the podium - I do not believe you would show the same disdain for the acknowledgement of success on those rare occasions you achieved it - I get what you are trying to say and I agree with the logic behind it - just when it comes down from on high it kinda misses the mark ----""been there done that and it didnt really matter - well why do it in the first place then?"..................you should be damn proud of your world title ane a few of the other things where you really nailed it
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not meaning to be nasty here so dont take it that way -----Have heard that latter statement A LOT!! always from some one who has been good enough at the game to make the elite grade and almost always accompanied by a short accounting of achievements (as herein stated above) - if you were an average punter who tries really hard every time he goes out and never quite makes the podium - I do not believe you would show the same disdain for the acknowledgement of success on those rare occasions you achieved it - I get what you are trying to say and I agree with the logic behind it - just when it comes down from on high it kinda misses the mark ----""been there done that and it didnt really matter - well why do it in the first place then?"..................you should be damn proud of your world title ane a few of the other things where you really nailed it
My Dear Greyhawk -
actually I do understand it. I AM that punter.I practiced long and hard!
When shooting 1911's competetively I practiced daily and reloaded everynight. after well over 18 months , with coaching, I was forced to come to grips with the reality that I would never make the top 10% locally, let alone regionally. Once I came to deal with that, I found I practiced less but enjoyed it more! Oddly, with the insane pressure off, I found my scores improved...
I also shot A LOT of trap, but was never competitive there either. However that was far more fun and had more friendly comaraderie ( much like CAS) and FUN SHOOTS ( like CAS) .
The big difference was the clubs.
The Bullseye, Bowling Pin, PPC, and IPSC crowds were deadly serious and cut-throat .
On the Other Hand, The old Trap Club and the local CAS ( oh, and the local archery club!!) are more laid back,
more supportive of each other, and far friendlier. It's all about the friendships.
And that is where I get my jollies and my accolades.
Just having the locals say,
"Damn Prof, you were even funnier this time than last! But you're shooting safely and hitting the tragets!
"How long was your time this time anyway?"
That is plenty for me.
If one has a NEED to compete - then compete against yourself !
Work to better your accuracy, your times, your smoothness and transitions.
When practicing use a timer, and knockdowns, and keep moving them further back....
And remember, since this is NCOWS - one can compete by improving your personna, costume, accoutrements, background,
support doco ....
This is going to sound all Zen and philosophical and etc, but :
= Its a GAME.
There are always winners and losers. learn to lose gracefully it happens more often.
In some games some folks will never be a winner. ( like me and poker.) - learn to accept it.
= Understand your limitations, and accept them.
Remember, you will never sing better than the nightingale.
But that doesn't mean stop trying to improve
= "Dance like no one is watching"
Play the game out of joy.
If you are not enjoying it you're doing it wrong. Or need to pick another game.
= Pick the right wolf to feed!
An Old Ojibaway Elder once told me -
Inside all of us are several wolves that fight amongst themselves:
Fear, Anger, Greed, Envy, Hate; but also
Selflessness, Generosity, Compassion, Forgiveness,and Love
The wolves you feed within you will grow strong and win .
Pick the right Wolves.
hope this helps
prof marvel
PS: - most of this is called Good Sportsmanship, and
I learned it in Gradeschool playing softball, basketball, tag football, all games I did only average at.
Have we forgotten Good Sportsmanship in the extreme competetiveness to win at any cost?
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Well pards, thanks for all the lectures, but you are still missing my point.
I have the ability to cowboy shoot every weekend her in SC. I am not leaving the sport.
Neither will I participate in the regional or annual matches for NCOWS when they have decided to marginalize my shooting style. I shoot duelist, fully loaded 45 LC, stock as mfg Colt revolvers, stock 1873 carbine and a 12 gauge mule eared shotgun. That has to be the slowest combination of firearms allowed in either NCOWS or SASS.
I don't give a hoot about your trophys, accolades, prizes or rewards. I shoot purely for the fun and my personal satisfaction.
BUT, here I am taking a stand. I refuse to support an organization who changed the rules without my consent or input. None of you have made a compelling argument for forcing duelist to compete against the two handed anachronistic style.
I am tired of being part of the silent majority. I do not agree with this latest rule change. I am taking a stand against it. Since i can't vote against it, I will vote with my checkbook. I will not support any NCOWS event that supports this change.
The previous rules were just fine. Again, the TC made the change, they can live with the consequences.
Maybe, just maybe, I can convince more duelists to stand up for what they believe in. I have already heard from several who will NOT renew their NCOWS membership in 2018.
Captain Quigley
1st U.S. Cavalry
NCOWS L-131
SASS 4243 Life
NRA Life member
Etc.
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OK then ....
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Well Templar,
I thoroughly understand "taking a stand".
everyone has to do what they think best.
please try not to let it affect your health. we need to keep all the good guys we can.
please stay healthy
with all respect and
best regards
prof marvel
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Well thank you Professor Marvel.
No worries pardner.
I am as fit as I can be considering the "exuberant" life I have led and am as healthy as Our Good Lord will allow.
Now retired, I am having a hard time fitting in all the fun stuff I do.
The single most important "litmus" test for me is that it has to be fun. When a leisure activity ceases to be fun due to my physical ability, time and distance to attend, cost, or "Onerous" rules, the it gets bounced off the list
May God watch over you and your family.
Quig
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My Dear Greyhawk -
actually I do understand it. I AM that punter.I practiced long and hard!
When shooting 1911's competetively I practiced daily and reloaded everynight. after well over 18 months , with coaching, I was forced to come to grips with the reality that I would never make the top 10% locally, let alone regionally. Once I came to deal with that, I found I practiced less but enjoyed it more! Oddly, with the insane pressure off, I found my scores improved...
I also shot A LOT of trap, but was never competitive there either. However that was far more fun and had more friendly comaraderie ( much like CAS) and FUN SHOOTS ( like CAS) .
The big difference was the clubs.
The Bullseye, Bowling Pin, PPC, and IPSC crowds were deadly serious and cut-throat .
On the Other Hand, The old Trap Club and the local CAS ( oh, and the local archery club!!) are more laid back,
more supportive of each other, and far friendlier. It's all about the friendships.
And that is where I get my jollies and my accolades.
Just having the locals say,
"Damn Prof, you were even funnier this time than last! But you're shooting safely and hitting the tragets!
"How long was your time this time anyway?"
That is plenty for me.
If one has a NEED to compete - then compete against yourself !
Work to better your accuracy, your times, your smoothness and transitions.
When practicing use a timer, and knockdowns, and keep moving them further back....
And remember, since this is NCOWS - one can compete by improving your personna, costume, accoutrements, background,
support doco ....
This is going to sound all Zen and philosophical and etc, but :
= Its a GAME.
There are always winners and losers. learn to lose gracefully it happens more often.
In some games some folks will never be a winner. ( like me and poker.) - learn to accept it.
= Understand your limitations, and accept them.
Remember, you will never sing better than the nightingale.
But that doesn't mean stop trying to improve
= "Dance like no one is watching"
Play the game out of joy.
If you are not enjoying it you're doing it wrong. Or need to pick another game.
= Pick the right wolf to feed!
An Old Ojibaway Elder once told me -
Inside all of us are several wolves that fight amongst themselves:
Fear, Anger, Greed, Envy, Hate; but also
Selflessness, Generosity, Compassion, Forgiveness,and Love
The wolves you feed within you will grow strong and win .
Pick the right Wolves.
hope this helps
prof marvel
PS: - most of this is called Good Sportsmanship, and
I learned it in Gradeschool playing softball, basketball, tag football, all games I did only average at.
Have we forgotten Good Sportsmanship in the extreme competetiveness to win at any cost?
When there are posts like this one I often wish we had "like" button as Face Book does.
:)
Will Ketchum
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Authenticity and two handed shooting. I have seen ONE primary source reference of two handed shooting in a late 19th century gunfight. It was done by a participant in a posse out of Buffalo Wy going into the Hole in the Wall country after outlaws. The writer stated they first engaged rustlers on horseback, he dismounted and took careful aim using two hands in aiming at his opponent.
If this is important I will put the effort in finding that source (book) as it is in my library somewhere. While I agree that any comment on two handed shooting is almost non-existent, I have always wondered about it. It provides a more stable shooting platform and that can not have taken several hundred years to discover. It may have been simply not worth mentioning.
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My Dear Will and Coffinmaker, you guys will make my head
smell (damn you autocorrect) swell worse than it already is ..... :-)
My Good James -
Authenticity and two handed shooting. I have seen ONE primary source reference of two handed shooting in a late 19th century gunfight. It was done by a participant in a posse out of Buffalo Wy going into the Hole in the Wall country after outlaws. The writer stated they first engaged rustlers on horseback, he dismounted and took careful aim using two hands in aiming at his opponent.
If this is important I will put the effort in finding that source (book) as it is in my library somewhere. While I agree that any comment on two handed shooting is almost non-existent, I have always wondered about it. It provides a more stable shooting platform and that can not have taken several hundred years to discover......
I would love to see that if you can find it! the more actual period doco we can unearth the better!
.......... It may have been simply not worth mentioning.
Thank you Monsiuer Hunt, now I can take this opportunity for some thread drift!
That is one of the biggest bugaboo in any historian's bag - who documents the little stuff?
It's a huge problem concerning "common materials used as tinder prior to Lucifers"
At the time, no one even thought to write down most of what went on, stuff that was considered so common
that "everybody knew" and it was "common sense " at the time.
A lot of Docents accept the party line that "all houses were drafty" and people just accepted it at the time and suffered.
In fact drafts were considered a source of ill health and efforts were made beyond mere chinking and included plastering and
in some cases, caulking as tho the house were a boat, using oakum and tar ( which, btw was common Pine Pitch,
not petroleum tar) which also gave the home lovely piney scent .....
back to the thread, the prof has babbeled enough....
yhs
prof marvel
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My Dear Will and Coffinmaker, you guys will make my head smell (damn you autocorrect) swell worse than it already is ..... :-)
My Good James -
I would love to see that if you can find it! the more actual period doco we can unearth the better!
Thank you Monsiuer Hunt, now I can take this opportunity for some thread drift!
That is one of the biggest bugaboo in any historian's bag - who documents the little stuff?
It's a huge problem concerning "common materials used as tinder prior to Lucifers"
At the time, no one even thought to write down most of what went on, stuff that was considered so common
that "everybody knew" and it was "common sense " at the time.
A lot of Docents accept the party line that "all houses were drafty" and people just accepted it at the time and suffered.
In fact drafts were considered a source of ill health and efforts were made beyond mere chinking and included plastering and
in some cases, caulking as tho the house were a boat, using oakum and tar ( which, btw was common Pine Pitch,
not petroleum tar) which also gave the home lovely piney scent .....
back to the thread, the prof has babbeled enough....
yhs
prof marvel
Lets drift some more - drafty walls - I wuz in Nebrasky visiting in 2005 when a blizzard hit (a proper one) an old timer told me stories about the one in '42 ? - anyway part of his story wuz ifn a little cabin out on the plains had so much as a finger size knothole in the exposed wall the wind would funnel through and fill that place up to the rafters with fine blown snow - I had gotten up that morning after a night of howling wind to most of an inch of ice crystals on the window sill inside my room - everything was tight shut but ya could feel wind coming in over the top of one section through a slit that would scarce pass a razor blade - the overlap between the two sections of the sash window - hold yer hand there for a bit and sure enough little ice crystals hitting it -----sooooo darn good reason for plugging those old places up like a bottle
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. It provides a more stable shooting platform...
We can have several different views about that...I have my own opinion. Anyway, we should not forget the military origin of most revolver designs we use today for sport shooting.
and the military wanted the enemy dead at long distance. And for long distance one hand is better, more accurate and comfortable.
When the distance is short...anything can happen....one hand, two...under stress normally two hands...but.sometimes there is only time for one hand and instict shooting.....
most deadly encounters in the West took place againts the very dangerous indian fighter, extremly efective in close combat so the military drill was one hand shooting taking aim carefully to hit the enemy at long distance.....and being an army or civil war veteran in those times was quite common.
.Most quarrels and gunfights among civilians in the West took place under the influence of alcohol or when women were around....so probably one hand shooting in drunk condition.
most law men chasing outlaws in the West took no risk and avoided at all cost open encounters...probably one hand shooting from a hiding position was key to survive.
most cattle wars were just plain murdering each other with the rifle from a safe distance or with the pistol shooting from the back...I dont see much point in two hand shooting.
on the other side, most target shooting disciplines that were born at the end of the XIX century have a very obvious military origin......in other words, one hand shooting. There was not in the time much literature about self defense shooting ( much was written about duelling, however) most soldiers, inmigrants and otlaws could hardly read their own languaje..
in my opinion, people from the end of the 1970s until present times, have being preconditioned to 2 hand shooting because of Hollywood, IPSC and action shooting disciplines, and gun writers. Nothing of that 150 years ago.
The art of duelling, in fact, was a key influence in the developing of target shooting and military drill in the Old times.....and duelling involved one hand shooting with a bent elbow (uncomfortable in my opinion) to provide some protection to the face and upper chest.
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Well said Mr. Llanerosolitario,
It appears you have done your research as a historian.
I quote from The book of "Cavalry Tactics"
written by Brig. Gen. Philip Cooke
in the year of Our Lord, 1861
Manual of the Pistol pages65 and 66
"Draw Pistol": at the command," pistol", "with the right hand unbutton the flap of the belt holster, draw the pistol, and holding it at the stock, with the point of the forefinger reaching above the trigger guard, carry it vertically, with the hand as high as the right should, and 6 inches in front of it."
This is my documentation of military training in the use of the pistol.
Captain Quigley
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Llanerosolitario, I must take exception with your statement that one hand shooting is more accurate at long range. If it were so metallic silhouette shooters would have shot one handed. I never witnessed that in my years of participating in that sport.
Now with that said for me as in individual I shoot as well if not better with one hand vs two but it's probably because I am a classically, Marine, trained bulls eye shooter and feel constrained when shooting two handed. However when a precise shot is required I tend to use two hands.
Will Ketchum
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Ah, geez, Pete,
Your jist a "classically, Marine, trained bulls eye shooter...", yup, a Bull Shooter fer sure and certain, said with pride that I am blessed to know such a stalwart Jarhead!
As one of the above-collectively-mentioned Shooters, I've fallen into and through most every category mentioned then falling knees-first into the handicapped zone. I feel it can all be summed up in a simple answer that may defy common sense and logic, to wit: you simply need to use your costume as a prop for the class, i.e., wear a sling on one arm and use that arm/hand as a brace for whichever format of holding the revolver works out the best for you. Simple, effective and chock-full of 'style points'!
And for those waddies above that may have forgotten the official NCOWS rules and regs, any individual party starting out in NCOWS as a new member has a full year to acquire any and all the gear he/she may need to fit in the segment of Western history they desire to assume at any 'official' NCOWS-sponsored event. This is a given, please look it up and refer to it when contemplating venting your collective spleens on what many seem to think are the alleged 'Thread Police' we support and maintain. BTW, they don't exist, PERIOD.
OK, now there may be some members that are overly zealous and want the sport/hobby to be as perfect as is humanly possible, they might excel in historically-correct wear and accoutrements such as leather wear, etc., and everyone attending MUST follow-through as they do but even they should be big enough and calm enough to smile and say to the newbie, "...here, let me show you how to make it work on a limited budget and what to strive for if you want to be the Top Dog in the field..."
Well, with that said and 'splained, I can only wish you all God speed and "...lay on McDuff!" if you want to pick me apart from the concepts only you can espouse.
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe
NCOWS #925
P.S. Don't get out much anymore so I'll jist add, "Thanks for the memories!"
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Greyhawk,
Yep. Drafty can be a real problem. Alaska is also a place where metal and synthetic window frames and such are prohibited by necessity to prevent Ice formation during the Winter months. Building codes require wooden window frames to prevent said Ice from forming during the cold months (Everything except July and August).
Yessiree Bob. Drafty just don't cut it. Not one bit.
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Just a couple of small points. Citing the instruction of some wheezing Military General of the day is ludicrous. In the time frame cited, the military didn't know what to do with a handgun. A hand gun was seen as an absolute last resort. Marksmanship with a handgun wasn't even taught. Let us remember, those were the same folks whom opined a repeating rifle was a waste of ammunition and still believed in well ordered lines of solders opposite more well ordered lines, so they could shoot at one another as ducks in a shooting gallery.
If you ever bother to study some of the photographs of the men who lived by the gun in the era, there is one salient feature. Their rifle. Rough men carried rifles as their primary arm. Pistols were included as an absolute last resort. Law men of the era, carried Rifles and Shotguns. Pistols were only seen to be of use in urban settings and more often to wallop some miscreant over the head.
Urban gunfights (mostly saloons) were historically carried out at something more like 7 FEET. Or 3 feet across a card table. One notable law man of the age was quoted "If you find yourself in a fair fight, you've done something terribly wrong."
I think NCOWS should legitimize "Gunfighter". Gunfighter is one hand shooting. Just the expedient of having a gun in EACH HAND.
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Looks to me like this argyment has kinda gone off at a tangent ?? isnt the primary issue that a two hand shooter has a decided advantage over a one hander playing the SASS game?
1) he can go much faster - cocking with left thumb while he holds n triggers with right - some are slip hammering I bet - holding trigger down while working hammer wid other thumb
2) regardless of the evidence you guys present around military and target shooting - for most of us two handed is a much more secure and steadier aim - (not particularly relevant to the SASS game where speed counts) try doing two hands at a regular target pistol club in a match where scores matter - you get banished from the range or at least severely reprimanded soon as ya other mit touches - just like in bronc or bull ridin - use of the free hand to steady ya is a no go . you is d - i - s - q - u- a - l - i -f i - e - d ! ! ! !
It must make a serious difference or it would not cause such a ruckus .
I dont reckon this is about authenticity so much as its about fairness in the competition - tother argyments are distractions ---- just two bobs worth from down under
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Llanerosolitario, I must take exception with your statement that one hand shooting is more accurate at long range. If it were so metallic silhouette shooters would have shot one handed. I never witnessed that in my years of participating in that sport.
Now with that said for me as in individual I shoot as well if not better with one hand vs two but it's probably because I am a classically, Marine, trained bulls eye shooter and feel constrained when shooting two handed. However when a precise shot is required I tend to use two hands.
Will Ketchum
Metallic cartridge is about hitting, not about getting scores.
If shooting two hands were more accurate, ISSF 50 meters pistol shooters, who shoot 22 lr pistols one hand at 50 meters, would surely use 2 hands and as a consequence would demand a change in the rules to allow it. But they know that two hands shoting is, in fact, a drawbck when compiting againts an acomplished one hand shooter in pure accuracy matches.
these guys are able to put 60 rounds in the area of a small cup of tea at 50 meters, not only thanks to intensive training and excellent single shot pistols and selected ammo, but also because one hand shooting provides more eye relief to the sights, which means less angular mistakes, but also allows the shooter to modify the grip to make the gun melt with the hand and arm ( as well as having more trigger feeling and control). The fact that the shooting eye is perfectly behind the sights without any momentum or angle as in two hands shooting is important too to avoid or minimize the pararell and horizontal mistake in sights aligment, in the long distance shooting.
The sum of all those facts above means that, technically and practically, shooting one hand is the most adequate position for maximum accuracy...at the price of more fatigue in the shooting arm after 30 rounds..( matches are 60 rounds). More demanding, but tecnically more rewarding too. This was well known in the old times and has also a military origin.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U6yc49uk5GY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_dpE9OmcsU8
It is interesting to say that these disciplines are old, being most from the late XIX and widely practised with modified centerfire revolvers in its time....interesting also how little known they are, outside Europe and Assia.
in my opinion, the revolver as a military tool in the USA had great importance. It was a key gun in the Mexican American war, specially againts armoured mexican lancers, and in the later indian wars, its 6 shots ( loading 5 is something from modern times) capacity provided more chances to survive for the soldier or pionner at a time when repeating arms were not allways avaiable and the most common arm was the single shot.
I dont think that life in the Old West towns was specially violent. Everybody was well armed, so most people were polite. Just a bad word to a decent woman could mean being linched or hanged, or, at least, being whipped. There was not a urban self defense culture or discipline in the Old West cities......the main danger in the Old West was far away from the city, where the hostile savage attacked, ambushed and provoked terror. Or where army deserters, or criminal gangs were active, attacking, destroying, creating havoc like in post War times.
Gunfights in the West surely were few ...thats why some became famous.
note: the size of the black of the international pistol target is about 2 mm from 50 meters. The world record is about 583....of 600 maximum for 60 shots.... it literally means at least 80 % of rounds in a dime area at 50 meters standing.
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...
If shooting two hands were more accurate, ISSF 50 meters pistol shooters, who shoot 22 lr pistols one hand at 50 meters, would surely use 2 hands and as a consequence would demand a change in the rules to allow it. But they know that two hands shoting is, in fact, a drawbck when compiting againts an acomplished one hand shooter in pure accuracy matches.
....
these guys are able to put 60 rounds in the area of a small cup of tea at 50 meters, not only thanks to intensive training and excellent single shot pistols and selected ammo, but also because one hand shooting provides more eye relief to the sights, which means less angular mistakes, but also allows the shooter to modify the grip to make the gun melt with the hand and arm ( as well as having more trigger feeling and control). The fact that the shooting eye is perfectly behind the sights without any momentum or angle as in two hands shooting is important too to avoid or minimize the pararell and horizontal mistake in sights aligment, in the long distance shooting.
...
The sum of all those facts above means that, technically and practically, shooting one hand is the most adequate position for maximum accuracy...at the price of more fatigue in the shooting arm after 30 rounds..( matches are 60 rounds). More demanding, but tecnically more rewarding too. This was well known in the old times and has also a military origin.
Sorry Llanero, but this is all opinion and speculation, what you offer as "facts" are not facts. They are observations and then conjecture.
Whilst your historic doco is correct, your opinion is really not "fact" and you provide no supporting factual evidence.
Once again, you are using Euro-biased sports rules as if they were based in scientific fact, and spinning twisted speculation to support your opinion. Your example shooters shoot one-handed becasue those are the rules they have to follow.
Trying to change those rules in the EU is like trying to move a mountain.
I really have no time to spend to find and post facts to refute your false dreaming, bu I will suggest you search for
"Ed McGivern" "Elmer Keith" "Col Wesson" and "long distance handgun" where you will find fact-based doco regarding
all of their use of 2 hands, one hand and bent knee, and other supports to provide pistol accuraccy at long ranges.
As previously posted by Will Ketchum, you have also completely ignored the achievements of long distance metallic silhouette shooters - the champions shoot two-handed or "freestyle".
I would really like to see your shooters try to compete in metallic silhouette. Metallic Silhouette Standing pistol is the most difficult discipline; no one has shot a perfect 40x40.
prof marvel
PS - ok I lied I looked one up. this was too good to pass up:
In 1997 Rich Mishler set the world record and won hitting 34/40 Targets,
Slamming Down 9/10 Rams at 500 Meters.
This Was Open Sights, Handguns, 500 Meters Freestyle.
Freestyle includes some unusual positions, such as the Creedmoor position, which is shot lying on the back, legs bent and feet flat on the ground, with the pistol resting on the shooter's right leg. ie: NOT your EU 0ne-hand pistol stance.
at 500 meters I myself can hardly SEE the RAM target.
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Pro M,
You also forgot to mention the referenced discipline as depicted in the provided moving pictures also has Custom Built, Recoil attenuated, .22 LR caliber, tailored to fit grip sets and a price tag to give apoplexy. Which also have no practical application.
AloneRanger:
While your "expert" observations are .... interesting .... I'd like to point out ... an "Ex" is a has been and "Spert" is mearly a drip under pressure. As noted by Pro M, your observations are somewhat suspect such as those of a Troll.
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I think we have exhausted this subject to it's final destination. I was hoping Jim Hunt would find his citation to enlighten us so I kept this thread alive. I have decided to lock it. If Mr. hunt finds said citation he can PM me and I'll unlock it.
Will Ketchum
NCOWS Board Moderator