Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => STORM => Topic started by: Pappy Hayes on August 14, 2017, 08:46:12 PM
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For the Richard's to handle the 44 Special, is the frame and cylinder larger then the 44 Colt/Russian One? Has anyone had any issues with the 44 Special like I have heard with the 45 Colt? I have a pair of 44 Colt with 8 inch barrels, I want to get one with 51/2 inch barrel. I was originally thinking of going with one in 38 Special because it is more available. Give me you opinions please.
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The cylinders are the same for the .44's. The .44's and even the .45's have not been having problems with the Type II. Keep in mind that the .38 version has a different frame and cylinder (not rebated). In fact, the gun in .38 is the same as a '61 except for the Army grip. I bought one and put a Navy grip on it to make a '61 conversion:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,58772.0.html
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The only place I have heard of Cimarron "45 Conversions" having problems is a couple this forum. Even then, it is nothing specific, just "I have heard they are having problems!" I shot some of the first that came in in the 90s, and I have been writing for the Chronicle since 1996, I have NEVER heard of any problems with the 45 conversions... I think Abilene would know if they were having problems.
If anything, I suspect someone threw a double charge of Unique, then blamed the gun. and it has taken on a life of its own, like all the other fake cr@p on the internet....
Firearms forums are full of "I knew a guy..." or "I knew a guy, who knew a guy..."
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A ways back there were a few that were a bit too thin at the bottom of the barrel where it is cut out for the cylinder "bushing" and cracking there ( a few overdone "cut the forcing cone to 11 degrees" jobs were part of that as well). And once they cut the bolt notches in some .45S&W a little too deep and some of those got "spit out" These problems really haven't been around for a long time.
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Tuolumne,
When I bought my Type II 44's at Texas Jacks last week, we discussed the question about the 45 Colt chambering in the conversions, as he had two of each caliber in stock. The gun department manager there did tell me he had seen three of the 45 Colt conversions (he didn't specifically say Type II's, so I guess could have been RM's) sent back to Cimarron with blown cylinders that the owners said had occurred when shooting Black Hills cowboy ammo.
That was one reason I stuck with the 44 Special/Colt/Russian chambering, since it would have about 0.012"+ thicker chamber walls, and carried a significantly smaller powder charge.
I know this is 3rd hand, so take it for what it's worth................
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So can the cylinder be loaded with six 44 Special cartridges? I thought the Specual brass had larger rims. Again I would like some pares opinions about staying with the 44 or go with the 38. Since the :8!cylinder is not rebated material fur go that way and change the gro to navy because I have wanted a 61 conversion. Just don't knownifnibwantbto have to buy a different cartridge. If it willloadbsic 44 Special and it is more available the the Colt and Russian I think I would stay with the 44. Just want others opinions
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So can the cylinder be loaded with six 44 Special cartridges? I thought the Specual brass had larger rims. Again I would like some pares opinions about staying with the 44 or go with the 38. Since the :8!cylinder is not rebated material fur go that way and change the gro to navy because I have wanted a 61 conversion. Just don't knownifnibwantbto have to buy a different cartridge. If it willloadbsic 44 Special and it is more available the the Colt and Russian I think I would stay with the 44. Just want others opinions
i have a Cimarron Richards Type II Conversion that says it is chambered for .44 Colt, but will chamber and fire .44 Special no problem. I tend to fire .44 Colt BP rounds out of it, but the .44 Special rounds don't give me any troubles. I think you'll enjoy either option because they're both great cartridges and the Richards Type II repros are great guns, in my opinion. If you've already got everything for a .44 then I say go for the .44; however, it's your money and if you want a .38 then get that. Get whatever will make you happy. I'm sure you'll enjoy your gun new gun either way.
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Pappy, it was only the old ASM conversions that would chamber the .44 Colt only, not the Special or Russian (the Special, Russian, and 45 Colt rim are all the same size). In all six holes, that is.
Blackpowder Burn, that is interesting news about Blackhills ammo blowing some 45 cylinders. I have not heard of that. Now, Texas Jacks does probably sell more of those guns than almost anyone except maybe Buffalo Arms. Was the gun manager there named Dean? Or a different weekend guy? I'll have to talk to Dean next time I see him.
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Abilene - Yes, it was Dean. Just didn't want to get into names on the forum. However.............
Pappy Hayes - Yes, the gun is marked as chambered for the 44 Special. I have to date fired 44 Colt and 44 Russian ammo through it with no issues. The 44 Russian and the 44 Special have the same rim diameter, which I measured to make sure. So it will easily handle any of the 3 cartridges.
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I stand corrected
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Have had and shot a Uberti Richards II chambered in 44 Spec since 2008 shooting both 44 Colt (FF blk) and 44 Spec (S. Less) with no cylinder rim problems loading 5 or 6 rounds. Use Starline brass 90% of the time, although I shoot mostly the 44 Colts using blk anymore. Have had a Uberti OpenTop since 2007 in 44 Spec with no problems either. As Abilene posted most of the problems associated with the older Uberti's were with the 45 Colt and the thinned out bottom of the barrel with cracking. A lot of talk about those in the back pages of STORM. From what I've read here and other places, that was even prior to my purchasing any of the open top style framed Colt's. Uberti did enlarge the cylinders and frame dimension's some from what I've read here by other's to accommodate the 44 family of rims. That is to the ire of some as it isn't 'original', no problem with me-the slightly increased size isn't enough in my book to warrant any loss of sleep over the issue. It's nice to be able to have the repro's to shoot. Original's are to pricey to buy and to delicate and valuable to shoot. I'd rather cast the Mav Dutchman's and reload the 44 Colt's (and Specials at times) with all the components that are available than mess around with heeled bullets and such. JMO! I do also have a Richard/Mason conversion in 38 Spec that I just got a little over a year ago. Shoot blk with Snakebite cast bullets. Have it in Army size grips as the OT and Richards, like the feel better, good shooter too, but the 44's are my favorite. Like my 44 cap and ball revolvers better to than my 36's. ;D
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Have had and shot a Uberti Richards II chambered in 44 Spec since 2008 shooting both 44 Colt (FF blk) and 44 Spec (S. Less) with no cylinder rim problems loading 5 or 6 rounds. Use Starline brass 90% of the time, although I shoot mostly the 44 Colts using blk anymore. Have had a Uberti OpenTop since 2007 in 44 Spec with no problems either. As Abilene posted most of the problems associated with the older Uberti's were with the 45 Colt and the thinned out bottom of the barrel with cracking. A lot of talk about those in the back pages of STORM. From what I've read here and other places, that was even prior to my purchasing any of the open top style framed Colt's. Uberti did enlarge the cylinders and frame dimension's some from what I've read here by other's to accommodate the 44 family of rims. That is to the ire of some as it isn't 'original', no problem with me-the slightly increased size isn't enough in my book to warrant any loss of sleep over the issue. It's nice to be able to have the repro's to shoot. Original's are to pricey to buy and to delicate and valuable to shoot. I'd rather cast the Mav Dutchman's and reload the 44 Colt's (and Specials at times) with all the components that are available than mess around with heeled bullets and such. JMO! I do also have a Richard/Mason conversion in 38 Spec that I just got a little over a year ago. Shoot blk with Snakebite cast bullets. Have it in Army size grips as the OT and Richards, like the feel better, good shooter too, but the 44's are my favorite. Like my 44 cap and ball revolvers better to than my 36's. ;D
what he say's is Ditto here
My Type I in 44 Colt has been my main match since 2010 .... 0 issues
Similar experience with my OT.... purchased in 2013, it has however, not seen the same # of Rounds all these years as the Type II
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My Turn!!
From a strictly professional standpoint (Retired Gunplumber), There is currently no "Known" ongoing problem with The 45 Richards II or any of the other Uberti built "Open Top" design guns. They do just fine. ALL Uberti Open Type guns suffer the same poor to nonexistent Barrel to Arbor fit problem. I consistently jump up on my Soap Box and tell folks to insure the barrel fits properly to the Arbor (easy to remove/replace) and VERIFY the Barrel to Arbor fit. Then BEFORE the gun goes into service, or BEFORE anything else is done to it, CORRECT the Barrel to Arbor fit.
Abilene nicely covered to few past little problems. Those problem were unique and not ongoing. I would have no hesitation what-so-ever with a Richards Type II or any other Uberti Open Top type gun in 44 Special. Just remember, emulating Elmer Keith would not be Harmonious.
Now for the personal opinion part. I don't agree with Uberti chambering the Open Top guns in .45. In my personal Opine, I feel the chamber walls are too thin. The guns are proofed for SAAMI 45 ammunition. The should digest SAAMI and Cowboy level ammunition with no problems. I only make my concern for the IDIOTS out there who will reload beyond SAAMI pressure levels. I would bet money, the blown cylinders cited were the result of STUPIDITY, not factory produced ammunition.
I personally own a pair of the first Open Tops sold. They were the guns sent to all the gun scribes to test. They were chambered in 45 Schofield. I've shot about a Bazzilion rounds thru them. 45 Schofield, 45 Squirt and C45S. These guns probably have 20,000 rounds thru em. ZERO problems. ALL reduced cowboy level ammunition. Common sense applies.
I also have Open Top 44 Colt cylinders and Barrels as well as having own'd a pair of type IIs in 44 Colt. ZERO problems. No hesitation recommending em to anyone.
MY CAVEAT: With any of the Open Top type guns from Uberti. BEFORE you do anything else .. verify and CORRECT the barrel to Arbor fit.
Coffinmaker
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ALL Uberti Open Type guns suffer the same poor to nonexistent Barrel to Arbor fit problem. I consistently jump up on my Soap Box and tell folks to insure the barrel fits properly to the Arbor (easy to remove/replace) and VERIFY the Barrel to Arbor fit. Then BEFORE the gun goes into service, or BEFORE anything else is done to it, CORRECT the Barrel to Arbor fit...
...MY CAVEAT: With any of the Open Top type guns from Uberti. BEFORE you do anything else .. verify and CORRECT the barrel to Arbor fit.
Coffinmaker: Any thoughts on the barrel to arbor fit? I seem to remember you mentioning that somewhere. ;) ;D
I WAS going to say that it isn't important just to fire things up, but two things prevented me: 1. I might be taken seriously and I DO believe it to be important and 2. Coffinmaker might come after me with his properly fitted pistols.
CC Griff
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Any pictures I see of the type II in 38 it shows it with rebates cylinder.
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Pappy: Your comment on pictures of Richards II models in 38 caliber showing a rebated cylinder and frame has come up before and questioned. If I recall maybe it was Abilene who splained' it that Uberti use's a 61' Navy frame and cylinder for the Richards II in the 38 caliber models, hence no stepped frame or rebated cylinder. My 38 Spec Richards/Mason conversion is this way. Maybe someone will chime in to confirm this or set the record straight. If I recall there was something said about the fact that Cimmaron and Taylors who are the main distributors of the Uberti conversions have their pictures wrong on their websites and catalogs and for space saving purposes don't show the exact picture of every model. I could be as wet as swamp duck, but it went something like that. My 38 RM is a Taylor import and they show the 38 caliber RM with stepped frame and rebated cylinder when it isn't. Good and fun shooter anyway.
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Pretty much what Crow Choker said. The pics in the ads are the .44/.45 models. If you look at mine you can see: no rebated cylinder.
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Yep, what Crow Choker and Abilene said. Dean and I discussed buying the Type II's in 44 Special or 38 Special. He told me the 38's did not have the rebated cylinder, although I didn't go so far as to have him dig them out from in back to look at. I just prefer the larger bores.
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For anyone interested in a prior discussion on the 'non-rebated' 38 Spec conversion, the one I was thinking of is on page 2 of STORM, currently seven threads down from the top authored by Abilene, titled "My Cimarron 1861 Conversion". Good read.
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Abilene do you have pictures somewhere here on the forum? Never mind I found the pictures. Nice looking gun. I had my mind made up to stay with the 44 but seeing your gun has me confused which way to go. I guess maybe the determining factor would be I would not know when I would get the navy grip. I don't even know where you get such a thing
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Abilene do you have pictures somewhere here on the forum? Never mind I found the pictures. Nice looking gun. I had my mind made up to stay with the 44 but seeing your gun has me confused which way to go. I guess maybe the determining factor would be I would not know when I would get the navy grip. I don't even know where you get such a thing
VTI gun parts is a good option for grips and grip frames. You might also be able to find those same parts on Ebay or something.
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Here is one of a pair of Type I's I am working on. I like Type I's because of the conversion ring mounted rear sight and floating firing pin
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Pettifogger,
Nice Project. The ASMs were/are really neat guns. Most accurate .38s I've ever owned.
Whatcher gonna do about the final finish?? Nickel ... Hard Chrome ... CCH/Blue ... Blue/Blue??
Week and simple minds are curious(er).
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It's nickeled. Unless the finish is damaged while I am working on it, I will leave it with the nickel finish. These guns were messed up by the previous owner. The first thing I did when I got them was run a range rod down the barrel to make sure the chambers lined up with the bore. Many of these had the cylinder notches cut in the wrong place so when fired they shaved lead something terrible. If they had been bad they were going to make a nice pair of lamps. The cylinder chambers lined up OK so I am rebuilding them.
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Pettifogger,
Way cool. At one time I had a real thing for the ASM Type 1s. Actually still do, just don't mess with them anymore. At one time had 11 of them, to get enough parts to keep 5 running. Finally just sold em all on.
I think being built on a quasi 1861 frame/cylinder/barrel made them the best looking conversions on the PLANET!!
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Trying to remember how the Type II and other conversions tend to shoot. Do they tend to shoot high or low?
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Just like the 1860s, they shoot high. 250 grain 45 will shoot higher than 200 grain.
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If I buy a Richard's Type II with 51/2 barrel, could I switch it with one of my 8 inch Barrels? Both of my 8 inch barrel revolvers needed some work on the table area because the cylinders were dragging. Cimarron did the work but the step down area on both of them lost some of the definition. I would like for at least on of them to have the definition. Hopefully I explained it clearly. If my Richard's Mason wasn't charcoal blue I would have tried swapping the barrels with it.
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Yes, the .44 RIchards-Mason and Richards Type II barrels in any barrel length are interchangeable. Some fitting may be required, of course.
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What kind of fitting
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I loaded some empty 44 Russian in one of my Type II and cycled the cylinder. It turned hard like it was hanging up. I put the brass in my other Richard's and it cycled fine. Any ideas what is wrong with the other One? I loaded 44 Colt in it and it worked fine.
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Maybe the 44 Russian brass is a "hair" thicker rim thickness and could be draggin on a high spot or burr on the recoil shield. Check the brass heads and see if there are any semi-circular scratches or rub marks on them. My Open Top when I first got it would cycle fine empty and with unfired rounds in it, after the first two shots the two empty fired brass would rub on a burr. I had to turn the cylinder by hand and not the hand that's suppose to be turning it. They had semi-circular scratches from a small burr on the lower right area of the recoil shield. Evidently the brass upon firing would get blown back enough upon firing causing the hang up. Filed the burr off and never a problem since.
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I loaded some empty 44 Russian in one of my Type II and cycled the cylinder. It turned hard like it was hanging up. I put the brass in my other Richard's and it cycled fine. Any ideas what is wrong with the other One? I loaded 44 Colt in it and it worked fine.
I cannot think of any reason. If that Russian brass had spent primers in it, make sure none of them are high (scrape marks on the primer). Do you have any 44 Spcl brass? The rim on the Russian and Special is exactly the same. Maybe you were holding the gun a different way when it hung up? I haven't heard of it being a particular problem on the Type II, but any of the OT's and conversions can hang up a round if the loading gate edge isn't even with the frame at the point just above the loading gate screw. Though aiming the gun down while cycling would prevent that one from happening.
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Real typical problem is the barrel/arbor fit. Or in the case of Uberti the non-fit. If the wedge is pushed in a bit further on one than the other that can cause the cylinder to bind. Try pushing the wedge out a bit and see if it cycles OK.
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I backed the pin off a little and it is cycling good now with the 44 Russian cartridges. I must have push it in too tight the last time I cleaned it. Thank you for your comments
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I backed the pin off a little and it is cycling good now with the 44 Russian cartridges. I must have push it in too tight the last time I cleaned it. Thank you for your comments
The problem will only get worse until you repair the underlying defect. The arbor fit has to be corrected. Once done the gun will give years of service.
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PLUS ONE to PETTIFOGGER. Uberti built Open Top type guns MUST have the Barrel to Arbor fit checked and Corrected BEFORE doing anything else with the gun.
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I would also have to add .
The second thing you should do.
Is replace the firing pins .
The Smith Shop sells some very good firing pins that need to be fitted .
But will last a life time of shooting .
Rooster .
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Opentops used to have long thin pointy firing pins that pierced primers and bent. A number of years ago they switched to a much better conical FP.
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I have a pair of Longhunter tuned 1872 Army's in 44 Special .
I like shooting full load APP with a 200gr Lee Bullet .
I did switch to shooting the 44 Russian cartridge just to not beat the hell out of the guns .
But I also have a pair of 1851's tuned the the Goon , With some R&D cylinders and Percussion cylinder .
Its hard to decide witch ones to shoot .
The nice part of the 1872's is the loading gate makes reloading much easier .
Since you dont have to knock out the wedge and take the gun apart to load .
Sorry im just rambling on .
Rooster Ron Wayne
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The 44 Colt has the smallest case rim since it was made fer the 1860 Army Colt. I agree that the arbor fit to the bottom of the barrels arbor hole is important. One other thing that goes with that is the size of the arbor hole diameter/size of the arbor diameter. I've put a small weld on some arbors right under the very beginning of the upper part of the barrels arbor hole(if the cylinder still goes on). That area is a contact point whereas the barrel will cant down there under the force of the wedge and too much space there makes fer a partial fit of the arbor face to the bottom of the arbor hole. Wouldn't think it possible for the base of the barrel hole to pivot on the top of the end of the arbor but it does. A very small space between the top of the beginning of the barrels hole and the top of the arbor there is alright. A space too big there at that spot lets the barrel cant down to meet the arbor. That means the barrel cants up at the muzzle more so the gun shoots a little higher. The less space between the arbor size and the barrels hole size the better. A slight jump in the arbor diameter right where the beginning of the barrels hole is makes fer a good thing. The Belgian 1860 Colts had the taper there very precisely to stop the barrel right when the barrel met the frame. Some had the bottomed arbor also. I respect that kind of machine work. Wish I remembered how to show paragraphs with this puter. Might not have anyone read this since the post is old. Anyway I like a nice snug fit of the arbor in the barrel even if it gets difficult a little to pull the barrel off. I use the loading lever to push the barrel off if need be. With the cartridge guns I would loosen the wedge and shoot a load to help the barrel loosen up. That's when I use a shim put in at the top beginning of the barrels arbor hole. That takes a little trickery and a little cussing sometimes. :)
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A person could go over my last post and might not get what I'm trying to say. I could make it a lot more understandable if I simply say…….
I think any gun smith worth the salt would do what actually solves that arbor fit problem. Use a lath and turn out a new arbor that is a close tolerance fit in the barrels hole. Make sure the barrels hole is reamed a little for straightness and smoothness. Make sure the arbor is the right length to be bottomed out.
I think the arbor should be about .002" under the diameter of the barrels hole.
I'm getting at saying the arbor length isn't the only thing that needs to fit well. The arbor has to fit the barrels hole well too. You know....like those two things should merge as they are one.
Making a new arbor and fitting it is a bit of a chore but a good smith with a good lathe can do it straight forward. A good machine shop with one of those wire type cutters(don't know the real name) can make a slot in the arbor perfectly. I had a shop do it for me.
I don't have a lathe,only a miling machine, so I had to look fer some help from a machine shop. The new arbor fer my Navy is a real gem. If I had a lathe I could start a hobby business being an arbor maker for people wanting the best fit fer the open top Colts. ::)
Hope someone reads this since I think itsheds some light on the subject of scientific propblem solving. You know.....just getting an arbor correctly bottomed is not doing the whole complete job. You need the arbor to fit the barrels hole well diameter wise too.