Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Winchester Model 1873 => Topic started by: yahoody on August 06, 2017, 08:34:05 PM
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I could really use some help making a good decision on a new '73.
I am looking at getting a 24" in 44-40. Straight grip if I can get it. But none of the rifles available are exactly the configuration I want. The new Winchester is the closest version. Newest Winchesters and their more original wood have me hankering for a new rifle. But noticed yesterday that Pioneer Gun works seems to be lacking in support of the Winchester as of late. What am I missing?
FWIW I am aware of the Winchester's short stroke kit and the added bits for the Japanese version. I do like the thin tapered octagon barrel on the Winchester by comparison to the heavier Uberti for example. And have put Pioneers Super Short stroke kit in one of my '73s. Only thing I intend to put in what ever new rifle I buy is add lwt springs and a aluminum carrier.....that and lots and lots of ammo :)
If you have experience with the new Winchesters compared to any of the Ubertis made guns and would like to comment it would be much appreciated. As a comparison for the new rifle I am looking for, I have an original 1896, 24", '73 in 38wcp, a Custom Uberti round barrel 23", in .45 Colt/ .45 Cowboy Special and my beloved 32-20 deluxe 20" short rifle from Cimarron amon several other toggle ling rifles. Had the newest Turnbull gun and wasn't impressed for the $ involved so I sold it.
At the moment here are the rifles in the running...but I sure am open to advice and suggestions. Not thrilled with the extra money they want for the new Winchester. Would be if it was a more accurate copy of the original or simply that much better rifle that the Ubertis.
What do ya'll think Old Buffalo Bill Cody was carrying for a '73 when he ran into Yellow Hand in 1876?
That is the gun I want :o
Appreciate the insights and thanks!
Cliff's custom Uberti rifle or a current Winchester :)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-344rRQrPgxg/WYpFlXa6dWI/AAAAAAAAr78/EfmEgGgjFyIRhFmdmXm15H4T06EStkD7ACLcBGAs/s1600/findley.jpg)
(http://armsvault.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/20150715_winchester_Winchester-Model-1873-Sporter-Case-Hardened-Grade-III-Octagon.jpg)
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Is that top one an Uberti? I wasn't aware they made a 24" straight stock with checkering. There are plenty of Uberti 24" straight stock rifles available, but not with the checkering. And is the bottom one a Miroku 30"? Didn't know they made a 30" Looks cool.
You mentioned a "more accurate copy". Except perhaps for the Urethane finish, the Uberti is closer cosmeticly, particularly the tang and barrel markings. But it's all subjective, and I'm sure the Miroku is a fine shooter.
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sorry, edited the pictures to better ask the question....for the next guy that comes along.
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Okay, for some reason they all looked longer to me when I first looked. So many 16" and 18" barrels around these days kind slanted my judgement. I think Taylors has a 24" half-round but probably no checkering.
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I have one of the Winchesters in 44-40. An action job on one of these is really simple. You do not need to change or grind the springs. Put spacers under the carrier and lever springs and turn the mainspring screw out a turn or two. You may want to smooth the internals a little. I removed the safety mechanism in the firing pin extension but it is not necessary to do that. I have a couple of 73's and a couple of 66's with different 3rd gen or similar SS kits and you cannot tell the difference when running them. I used a couple of stainless steel washers under the lever and carrier springs. Total cost was less than a quarter. Most of the ideas were from Pettifogger. I kept turn the mainspring out trying to find a point at which it would no longer set off primers. It came loose before that happened. My wife has one of the Winchesters in 357 same result. When you factor in the cost of a ss kit/action job or time spent on a Uberti doing the work the Winchester doesn't seem quite as expensive anymore.
wM1
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"An action job on one of these is really simple. "
All of you commentary was a big help Wildman...thank you!
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FWIW, I think that the modern Winchester '73 is on the "unapproved list" for NCOWS.
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Cody probably carried a standard sporting rifle. In 1876, it would have been a first model with mortised thumb print dust cover. The barrels were heavier on first models than the second and third model, both in round and octagon. Standard length was 24". Caliber of course would have been .44 WCF.
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Cody probably carried a standard sporting rifle. In 1876, it would have been a first model with mortised thumb print dust cover. The barrels were heavier on first models than the second and third model, both in round and octagon. Standard length was 24". Caliber of course would have been .44 WCF.
Yep pretty well documented as a straight grip standard 24" barreled rifle. The majority of photos of Cody and a '73 are of octagon barrels. But I have seen him pictured with a half round pistol grip engraved rifle and a full round barrel 24" as well. Found it interesting that places claimed he also carried a pair of 44-40s Colts SAA that didn't exist in '76. He also carried a 1868 Remington Army cap and ball pistol that is well documented. But find it hard to believe when working for the army in '76 he didn't carry an Army issue Colt SAA in .45. After the post Custer campaign Cody never scouted again for the Army. Cody was certainly the real deal. But his showmanship took over where reality ended so likely we'll never know much of the details of what he really did or the firearms arms he carried.
Played some with the Winchester 24" and a new Uberti 24"again today. Both in 45 Colt. Winchester is a pretty slick gun out of the box by comparison and its lighter barrel helps the balance IMO. Even more so when you fill the tube with ammo.
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When I bought my Winchester and tried to shoot it as it came it was difficult to get through a stage with it. With the little tuning I did it is as good as any of the rest of my rifles. wM1
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When I bought my Winchester and tried to shoot it as it came it was difficult to get through a stage with it. With the little tuning I did it is as good as any of the rest of my rifles. wM1
Curious what you found as problems with the gun "as is"?
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It would not always chamber rounds easily, seemed to be very stiff spring wise. The only smoothing I did to the internal parts was polishing the carrier and inside the receiver. I would be running it in a match and once or twice a stage it would not chamber well. After the spring work and minor polishing it works great. If you would like I can text you some pictures of what the washers look like installed.
wM1
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I always find these "I need help deciding what I should buy" threads interesting. The only person that knows what you want is you. Candidily for CAS action shooting I would not buy a 24" 73 regardless of who made it. They simply are muzzle heavy and do not swing well for fast shooting. I just picked up a Ubeti 73 "Texas Popper" as I really like the half-round/octagan barrels. However what anyone likes is irrelevant. The only thing relevant is what the purchaser wants. Here's my latest 73. It will be the star of a future gun article for the Cowboy Chronicle.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee241/pettifogger1/DSC_0032_zpsk3dvicyf.jpg) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/pettifogger1/media/DSC_0032_zpsk3dvicyf.jpg.html)
My advice to people looking at Winchester vs. Uberti 73s is that if you intend to make minimal tuning buy the Winchester. It has a shorter stroke from the factory and will tune up very easily. If someone intends to build a race gun get a Uberti as there are far more speed parts for it. Here is all that is needed for the Winchester carrier and lever springs. The Winchester springs are quite flat compared to a Ubetti so raising them just a bit makes a HUGE difference.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee241/pettifogger1/PA133803_zpse08bffha.jpg) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/pettifogger1/media/PA133803_zpse08bffha.jpg.html)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee241/pettifogger1/PA133805_zpsyak8f9ge.jpg) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/pettifogger1/media/PA133805_zpsyak8f9ge.jpg.html)
Well crap, Photobucket won't allow posting photos anymore. Anyone have an alternative hosting service. I'm done with Photobucket.
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I just found the information on Photobucket. THey no longer allow posting of photos unless you have a paid plan. Anyone know another method for posting photos here? This site does not seem to allow posting photos directly from a photos program unless you use a hosting site.
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If I could get my photos under the 400 limit, I can post direct from my photos on my Lap Top. Hit Additional Options under the reply window, go to select a file, pick your file (your photo's), pick your photo and attach. Easy Peasy. If I could just get my photos under the 400 kb limit ???
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I did that and made sure the photos were under 400kb. The ID for the photo shows up next to "Attach Choose File" but nothing appears on the screen. WELLL!!!! I tried it again. The photo does not show up under "Preview" but seems to have attached this time.
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Test. This should be the first photo.
http://www.dakotaskipper.net/ebay/73.jpg
The second and third.
http://www.dakotaskipper.net/ebay/spring.jpg
http://www.dakotaskipper.net/ebay/action.jpg
Hmm. No photos but the links work.
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One more test.
Photos one, two and three.
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I always find these "I need help deciding what I should buy" threads interesting. The only person that knows what you want is you. Candidily for CAS action shooting I would not buy a 24" 73 regardless of who made it. They simply are muzzle heavy and do not swing well for fast shooting......
Was looking for Winchester/Uberti pros and cons from experience. Race guns? Got'um, don't need any more.
But they are handy for shooting BIG steel at pistol distances ::)
Do appreciate the Winchester tuning tips.
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My wife gave me a .44-40 Uberti '73 from Santa Fe Arms in 1982. I tuned it myself and did nothing else mechnical to the gun.
I only failed me once (bad reload) and is still tight and minute of bad eyes accurate. Has a 28 1/4" tapered barrel, straight grip, and handles like a dream.
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I just got a nice little carbine. haven't got it to a match yet, did just get it tunes tho.
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/010046471428/media/52970303480/medium/1496436665/enhance)
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Top and middle rifles are both 20" Uberti/taylor/cimarron. Didn't get the 24" photos or they don't make it. Love to have that top gun with a 1/2 oct 24".
Bottom is a 24" Winchester.
You can get that top gun from Cimarron with 24 inch 1/2 octagon. You'll have to order it. I've got one myself.
It is nice too, weight wise it handles about like a 20 inch barrel but has the longer sight radius of the 24.
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Cliff was kind enough to send me a few pictures of his custom Uberti. Outstanding rifle! Thanks for the input. I have a SASS race gun built with a half mag tube and a medium weight Shilen match barrel. I chambered it for and shoot 45 Cowboy Specials (holds 12) in that one so know the half round '24 was gonna be close for fast handling. Also set back the rear sight to the maximum the elevator allows to extend the sight radius which Uberti does on their saddle rifle. Will do that again. I pushed the front sight forward some on the Shilen as well.
Cliff's outstanding rifle....
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-344rRQrPgxg/WYpFlXa6dWI/AAAAAAAAr78/EfmEgGgjFyIRhFmdmXm15H4T06EStkD7ACLcBGAs/s1600/findley.jpg)
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If you already have a race gun then look at the features you want and then see if either Uberti or Winchester makes what you want. Either will give you good service. I have both and each has its tuning benfits and detriments. Again, if I were going to keep the gun basically stock, the Winchester is easier to tune. Some people seem to go nuts over whether their Japanese or Italian clone is "authentic." The only way to get an authentic gun is, of course, to purchase an original antique American made Winchester. Neither of the clones is an exact copy. Of the two the Uberti is closer to the original.
Cliff's rifle is a beaut. To get that type of finish on a Winchester you would have to get the Navy Arms version with the Turnbull case hardening.
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yahoody, how did you post that picture? I was using photobucket but all that has changed and I can't figure out how to post pictures on here.
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..how did you post that picture?
I copied and edited your photo to highlight your rifle and wood. Then I added that photo to my own hosting system..and linked it here.
Having a host that you totally control is the key.
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Just another option.
Another thing you can do with the finish if you want to keep it traditional but don't want to spring for the cost of real case coloring is just have Cimarron order one with an all blue receiver. Most original Winchesters were blued anyway.
My Cimarron 1876 rifle has a blued receiver and the last two 73s I ordered with blued receivers. They don't look plain at all especially with some fancy wood and checkering.
If I recall the cost of the US Finish bone case color hardening is 275 bucks but I don't think it cost any extra to order with a blued receiver. IMO I like an all blued gun instead of the standard chemical case coloring and in some ways like the blued guns equal to even the real case bone and charcoal case hardening.
If I could figure out how to post a picture I'd post some of my other Cimarrons with solid blued receivers.
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Fourty and King? Gentlemen thank you for offering opinions on both ends of the spectrum. Beautiful rifles!
And good luck at your first match!
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One thing I just found out is that if you export a photo to the desktop or otherwise size it so that it is below 400kb you can click on the little box just below the Italics box on the response page. Two "img" signs will pop up. You can paste your photo ID between the IMGs and it will come up.
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Cliff, good comment. Hadn't thought about it but sure makes sense. My original well worn 38wcf Sporting rifle was made in 1894 and was blued. Have yet to see a case colored NEW Winchester but the blued 24" rifles with decent wood I have seen are a lot more like my original than my Ubertis are in some ways. They are pretty rifles cosmetically to my eye.
High grade and checked wood would make a blued rifle really POP!. Get that blue showing a little wear from use and I'd really like it.
FWIW currently 60 days out for a 24" half round, checked wood.
6 months out or more for upgraded wood on the same gun.
With pricing still well under the Navy Arms/Turnbull Winchesters.
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Cliff, good comment. Hadn't thought about it but sure makes sense. My original well worn 38wcf Sporting rifle was made in 1894 and was blued. Have yet to see a case colored NEW Winchester but the blued 24" rifles with decent wood I have seen are a lot more like my original than my Ubertis are in some ways. They are pretty rifles cosmetically to my eye.
High grade and checked wood would make a blued rifle really POP!. Get that blue showing a little wear from use and I'd really like it.
FWIW currently 60 days out for a 24" half round, checked wood.
6 months out or more for upgraded wood on the same gun.
With pricing still well under the Navy Arms/Turnbull Winchesters.
At least usually on the upgraded wood and if you get bone and charcoal case coloring keep in mind that has to be sent out once it reaches stateside and will add to the wait. The upside to all of it, after the wait you get what you want and there's not a thousand more floating around like it.
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Hi
This is a month or so old, but I read both of Mike Venturino's books, Lever Guns of the Old West and Shooting Sixguns of the Old West. In his books, Mike works up loads for the guns as well as using Factory stuff. In both Lever guns and in SAA'a (most others also), the 44/40 was the most accurate. The .45 LC was one of the least accurate. I don't remember what the reason was, or if it was even given.
Later