Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: bear tooth billy on July 20, 2017, 09:22:37 PM
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I just got a trapdoor model 1866, seems to be in good shape, very good bore. The only thing
I see is the firing pin spring is very weak or broke. How does that come out and is a replacement
available. I slugged it and came up with .518" , I ordered an oversize neck sizing die and expander plug,
plus brass and reg 50/70 dies, and a lee 90255 mould. I,m hoping to make it a shooter.
BTB
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I believe S & S Firearms has just about all the parts for these. I believe you can make a spanner for the firing pin lock nut out of Brownells Magna Tip screwdriver blade.
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Later trapdoors did away with that spring. I'm not sure I'd worry about it.
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The chambers on these are very long. Mine will chamber 50-90 brass with no resistance, Many shooters use 50-90 brass
and trim it if necessary.
Regards
Colt
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Thanks guys, I thought about not doing anything with it, It probably could never go off
from shutting the trapdoor, that is my main concern. The firing pin moves very freely
so it shouldn't put much pressure on the primer when shutting, but???
BTB
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As has been said, they got rid of that spring as it proved unneeded. I believe some reports were that it tended to break, and then the broken pieces caused the pin to jam, setting off rounds! My M1884 has no spring, and has never gone off on its own. But you can get one here for piece of mind: http://ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=66S64
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HI,
This is probably well known but I wil mention it anyway. Because the receiver is made out of the breech of the barrel, they were
limited in the thickness that they could use for the walls of the receiver. As a result the 1866 is a weaker action than the later models where the barrel is threaded into the receiver. As a result, I shoot my 1866 with a reduced charge of 2F and use a n inert
filler.
Regards
Preston C
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Got my brass today, so I put in a primer and stepped out the back door, Bang, went off just like
it should . but when I went to extract the spent round it was hanging up on a small pin on the
left. I'm guessing that should be longer and it should stay in front of the rim, and then pop it out?.
Do I need that, thinking about grinding it down with a dremel until I get a replacement if needed
thanks for your knowledgeable advice.
BTB
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That is indeed the extractor, and it should stay in front of the rim. However, these were problematic even when new. Make sure when you place the case in the trap that it is in front of this extractor, and that the breechblock compresses it as it chambers the case. It may very well be worn down, so a replacement can be found here: http://ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=66S55
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Welcome to the 50/70 ers.
Dusty
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I cast some bullets from my new Lee 90255 mold , I had read that it would drop out at .518"
but with pure lead they are measuring .515". My past experience with my Sharps rifles has been
that undersize bullets don't fly very well. Will this pure lead "bump" up the .003" to fill the bore to
be accurate or will I need to get a custom made mold. I have Shuetzen 2F or Swiss 11/2, and am
hoping to shoot a few today. Thanks
BTB
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You don't need pure lead, in fact I would advise against it in a BP cartridge gun. A lead/tin alloy will work better, fill the mold better, with less shrinkage as well, getting you the diameter you want. Anywhere from 1/40 to wheelweight alloy will work fine, I use melted chilled shot. Save the Pure Lead for muzzleloaders and Minie' balls.
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I've shot nothing but wheel weight bullets in my '68 Trapdoor for years, and it works great. Very accurate and totally reliable.
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I made it out to shoot the trapdoor this afternoon, with all the rain I couldn't get to my normal range,
so I shot off the tailgate at about 100 yds. 4of 5 shots grouped at about 10" only about 14" high. I think I"ll
cast some more bullets out my 20-1 alloy (that I use in my Sharps). But I doubt I'll get the size I want .518"
or .519". Does anyone sell some sample bullets in those dimensions. Quite the trek down history lane aiming
through these sites. last weekend I competed at the NCOWS Midwest regional with my Sharps 45/90, MVA rear sight
and front appeture with spirit level, so a world of difference. Having fun, challenging, hoping to get it better 3MOA??
BTB
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Ever order a mold from Accurate? They're my go-to for precision molds, use Lee handles, and he'll customize the dimensions to order as well as to your desired Alloy. All for his standard price, $76 for a single cavity, $91 for a dual cavity. If the Lee don't work out you might try this one: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=52-450L2-D.png
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Yes, I've ordered a couple from him, had good luck with them. I was looking at his website before, which
one would you recommend? I have 20-1 alloy heating up right now , but I don't think i'll get the size I
need, but we'll see.
BTB
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I'd recommend the one I linked to, that's the closest to the government profile bullet.
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I don't know how the 1866 shoots (I will soon; a friend here just got one with a beautiful bore) but my 1868 shoots under 3 MOA. Not bad at all with the original sights.
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20:1 was what the army used
Buffalo arms sells small lots of bullets
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I'm waiting on a .519" mold but I cast some bullets with 20-1 alloy with the Lee mold
they still measure .515". I drop tubed 60 grain Swiss 1 1/2, a cardboard wad and a
.7cc dipper of PSB, seated the bullet with one lube ring out. I shot about 80 yards
off a bench and the first 3 shots were in a 3" group only about 16" high. Did all these
shoot high? or did somebody file the front sight? It's showing promise, I think it will
be a shooter when I get the right sized bullet, but for now PSB does wonders.
BTB
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I'm waiting on a .519" mold but I cast some bullets with 20-1 alloy with the Lee mold
they still measure .515". I drop tubed 60 grain Swiss 1 1/2, a cardboard wad and a
.7cc dipper of PSB, seated the bullet with one lube ring out. I shot about 80 yards
off a bench and the first 3 shots were in a 3" group only about 16" high. Did all these
shoot high? or did somebody file the front sight? It's showing promise, I think it will
be a shooter when I get the right sized bullet, but for now PSB does wonders.
BTB
U.S. military long arms of the post-CW era were sighted in to zero at something like 352 yards. (I can't get at my reference book right now, but there are reproduction books that give ordnance figures for the .50-70, so I may be off a bit.) The idea was to create a "danger space" for shooting at a mounted cavalryman and his horse! The result is that most of the different rifles, Springfield's, Sharps, etc., will shoot 15-18 inches high at 100 yds, so 16 inches at 80 yds is about right. For target shooting, rather than putting a taller front sight blade, I used to place two 10-inch diameter bullseyes one above the other, aim at the bottom of the lower one and that would put me pretty much on at 100 yds.
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262 yards. Infantrymen were taught to aim for the belly. Hold 6 on everything. The 3 groove gov't barrel actually works well with a little "windage" for BP fouling.
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Sorry about being a newbie about these old military guns, but why
did they zero them at such long distances. Wouldn't most shooting be
done less than that? Thanks
BTB
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The setting was designed to keep a bullet roughly inside the vertical height of the average human torso out to 300 yards. IE with the battle sight setting, (these are the M1873 numbers, but you will get the idea) at 50 yards the bullet strikes 13" high, 21" high at 100 yards, 16" high at 200 yards, and 17" low at 300 yards. With the rifle held parallel to the ground, there should be no safe space for a man inside the critical 300. We still do this, only today we call it "optimum point blank range"
Remember, the critical distance in battle since the inception of firearms has always been 300 paces/yards/meters. With the invention of Smokeless, military thinkers the world over doubled that to 600 yards, only to find out even today, that the critical engagement distance still remains 300.
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The setting was designed to keep a bullet roughly inside the vertical height of the average human torso out to 300 yards. IE with the battle sight setting, (these are the M1873 numbers, but you will get the idea) at 50 yards the bullet strikes 13" high, 21" high at 100 yards, 16" high at 200 yards, and 17" low at 300 yards. With the rifle held parallel to the ground, there should be no safe space for a man inside the critical 300. We still do this, only today we call it "optimum point blank range"
Remember, the critical distance in battle since the inception of firearms has always been 300 paces/yards/meters. With the invention of Smokeless, military thinkers the world over doubled that to 600 yards, only to find out even today, that the critical engagement distance still remains 300.
Thank you, sir, for the correction of the range, and the additional explanation. Eventually, I hope to dig out the booklet on management of the .50-70 arms.
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I got my dies and loaded up some rounds that I shot this weekend. I loaded a few 515'' bullets on top of 60 gr 1 1/2 Swiss
at 150 yds it shot a 7'' group. I also loaded some 519" bullets exactly the same, and they shot a 6'' group. I slugged this
and came up with a 518" groove diameter. So I expected the 519" bullets to shoot a lot better. Again, I am new to these old
military guns, but my experience with Sharps rifles, I believe there would have been a big difference. The 1866's sights
are very hard for me to hold the same aim point. Do you guys use magnum primers, I haven't been. Any load suggestions
would be appreciated. Thanks
BTB
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In the BP Cartridge Reloading Primer by Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe it says that they have found that a hot primer is necessary for accurate black powder shooting. Their recommendations are Federal's 210, 210 match and 215 magnum, and Winchester large rifle and large rifle magnum. They say they use the Federal 215 magnum exclusively. In a test at 200 yds. with three identical .40-70 loads other than the primer the results were as follows: 1. Winchester Lg. pistol primers 14 inches
2. Remington 9 1/2 lg rifle primers 9 1/2 inches
3. Federal 215 magnum lg rifle primers 4 inches
Good luck John, I have faith you'll soon have that old girl shootin as good as yur buffler gun!
B.N.S.
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How did you measure the groove diameter? Weren't these barrels 3 lands and 3 grooves? Can be done, but not as easy as with an even number of lands and grooves.
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As long as we are talking 50-70 Govtjere, at the last Muster I was shooting an Italian copyof the 1963 Sharps Carbine, 50-70. Actually, I have two of them. At the Muster, one of my carbines had the tab break off the extractor (ok, I still like to shoot full loads and sometimes, that Starline brass just gets stuck). Anyway, the tab broke off, so manual extraction with something like a patch knife is required. I contacted Chiappa about a replacement, but that got me nowhere. They have crappy customer service. Any suggestions? I love shooting them, but at a Muster popping them out with a blade is impractical.
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Are they close enough to an original to make it work? I would assume not, but you never know.
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After slugging it, I measured from edge to edge of the lead that was in the groove, and moved it
around to get the largest measurement. I took it to work and had our maintenance guys measure with
2 different calipers, and we came up with the same. it's tricky getting just the right spot to get a
measurement. Tom, I just put in that spring in this one, it was worn and the brass was going over top
and had to pry every one over it. S&S has originals for $18, I have no idea if it will fit in yours though
BTB
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Do you guys use magnum primers, I haven't been.
I only use Federal 215's in my BP Rifle loads
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There is a new deer hunting regulation in Iowa that you can use straight wall cartridges under 1.8".
I had the local DNR guy check and they decided the 50/70 is legal. Unfortunately the original sights
hit about 18'' high at deer range. I left the original sight and JB welded a sight ramp behind it to
use a Marbles brass sight. I calculated wrong and now hitting a little low, but another sight is on the
way. The load shoots very well, and will be deer hunting in Dec.
BTB