Howdy all,
For a couple years I've been searching for an 1866 carbine in 44 special with no luck. Simply because I want to complete a costume idea I have for one of my personas in cowboy shooting. My original design was to pair this '66 carbine with a couple of open tops in 44 Colt. My open tops will also chamber and shoot 44 special. However, I thought to get a little closer to be more historically accurate ( I know, just closer without ever obtaining the cigar, so to speak. I've read a lot here on this board about replicating the original 44 Henry flat/rimfire. I only want to be in the ballpark... A personal quirk...) I could shoot 44 Colt or 44 Russian from a 44 Special chambered 1866 Uberti with the use of one of the appropriate carrier blocks from the Smith Shop. But this ever elusive carbine/caliber combination still proves to be just that, elusive. And yes it has to be a carbine, a short rifle does not fit the bill for my persona.
I continue reading thread after thread and discover I can get a 45 Colt 1866 Uberti carbine (quite easily) and with the carrier block from the Smith Shop use 45 Cowboy Special reliably. As most of my revolvers are 45 Colt I can certainly make use of another lever action in the same caliber, especially with the flexibility I'm learning it may have. I am guessing 45 Schofield, being longer than the 45CS might work in the gun w/o issue sans altered carrier block? Gun dependent of course, it seems. These alternative 45 calibers also get historically closer to the 44 HF ballistically and in physical size, so my OCD is piqued. I am suddenly thinking I can achieve the same basic goal with a caliber much easier to find in an available carbine than my original caliber intent. And if I stick with a 45 Colt chambered 1866 carbine I can use the same alternative ammo in my Uberti 1860 Henry for giggles on occasion.
Basically I can shoot my 45 Colt revolvers paired with a 45 Colt 1866 carbine or 1860 Henry shooting this alternative 45 ammo and satisfy more of my little cowboy shooting OCD personas.
My questions...
Will using the shorter 45 Cowboy special or 45 Schofield in a long gun chambered for 45 Colt cause any serious chamber wear or degradation? I would of course have the same concern over using a 44 Colt round in a 44 special chamber. I don't really remember ever hearing that a 38 special will wear out a 357 Magnum chamber so I'm guessing this is the exact same phenomenon.
As 45 Schofield brass and ammo is readily available whereas 45 Cowboy special brass is apparently not, is there any real advantage to trying to find and use 45 Cowboy special over the 45 Schofield? What, if any, tangible differences are there between shooting 45 Schofield and 45 Cowboy special with black powder? Smokeless, ie Trailboss?
I'm really not trying to minimize felt recoil in these rifles - that's not an issue. I will be loading smokeless and black powder ammo and I already am well aware of the pros and cons, mostly cons of shooting black powder in a straight wall pistol cartridge in a rifle. Fun factor being the apex of a pro characteristic.
Thanks for all helpful comments.
I am a fan of good old .45 Schofield brass, loaded with a 200 grain bullet. If you load 28 grains volume BP or Triple 7 (22.5 grains weight), you exactly duplicate the .44 Henry round in a 24' 1860 or 1866. As far as revolvers go, you can get a pair of 1858 Remmies or a pair of 1860 Colts, and use a n R&D drop in .45 Colt cylinder. The Schofields fit in them. Remington 1858 cartridge conversions actually proceeded Colt conversions by several years, because Remington agreed to pay a royalty to S&W. I actually handled an original Remington Navy that was converted to .38 rimfire with a two piece cylinder like R&D, and also an original 1858 that had the .46 rimfire conversion.
Here's mine:
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg134/imarangemaster/Henry%20rounds_zpsyhrtggtj.jpg) (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/imarangemaster/media/Henry%20rounds_zpsyhrtggtj.jpg.html)
Interestingly enough I had never thought of using 45 Schofield in my Remington NMA replica. I had just been down-loading 45 Colt to the bottom of the recommended safe level with TB powder and some APP loads but the Schofield round might make more sense in this application. Now I think I will make a habit of this.
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh91/coloradoblackbear/IMG_2892.jpg)
Also, today I ran some 45 Schofield rounds through my 1860 Henry repro. The 230 grainers ran smooth as could be but perhaps even more interesting the 180 grainers ran just as smoothly. No shooting, just cycling the ammo through the rifle.
I'm really liking this project.
I can get 14 of the 45 Schofield rounds in my Henry. With 180s, I get 15, but needed the modified carrier. The 200s I tried before are ALMOST short enough to get 15, but not quite. I can't wait to see if the Stateline Bullets 200 (which are a tad shorter than what I used to use) might work.
I shoot a 66 Cimarron in 44 special .
With a pair of Open Tops in 44 special .
I love this setup.
I believe Cimarron has the 66 in 44 special in stock right now .
Just saying .
I agree the 44 Special 66 is a good way to go, especially if you have a pair of Open Top Colts. Unfortunately, the 1860 Henry is 44-40 or 45 only, and I wanted a Lonesome Dove Henry! I opted for 45, over 44-40 so I could use a pair of Remmie conversions with R&D .45 Colt/Schofield cylinders.
Quote from: Rooster Ron Wayne on February 05, 2017, 07:14:19 PM
I shoot a 66 Cimarron in 44 special .
With a pair of Open Tops in 44 special .
I love this setup.
I believe Cimarron has the 66 in 44 special in stock right now .
Just saying .
Yes, but Cowtown wants a carbine which is not currently in stock. (Although he says he has been looking for a couple of years, and Cimarron has had the carbines in stock several times during that period)
Quote from: Abilene on February 05, 2017, 08:36:49 PM
Yes, but Cowtown wants a carbine which is not currently in stock. (Although he says he has been looking for a couple of years, and Cimarron has had the carbines in stock several times during that period)
I've missed 'em then. :'(
I routinely check the online firearms distributor houses and auction sites like GunBroker, Guns America, Buds, Impact and a couple smaller sites. Buffalo Arms has not had them. Over the last year I have called Texas Jacks as well, but no luck. I have seen a few short rifles and more than a few with 24" barrels, but the carbine has not materialized for me. Yet. I am patient and have no doubt I will find one. If you can point me in the right direction, please do.
There was 44 Special 66 Carbine at the Melbourne (Fla.) Gun Show just yesterday. :-[
My excuse was I was suffering from , Nomadfunditus
Did get some .429 44's for my 73 though 8)
Just thinking out loud here, it makes much more sense to figure out a way to get/make/find an 1866 carbine in .44 Special than to convert a 45 Colt to a proprietary cartridge. I mean if you're going to go to those lengths, buy a .45 Colt, get a .44 Special carbine barrel from VTI and swap them out. I R&R-ed the barrel on one of my old '73 Winchesters and it was ridiculously simple.
CHT
could a 44/40 barrel be st back and rechambered?
Quote from: Galen on February 06, 2017, 11:46:28 AM
could a 44/40 barrel be st back and rechambered?
That could be done, but Im not sure that everything such as the forend band would line back up. Plus a .44 Special barrel is only $235.00 from VTI, I'd think it'd cost at least that to have a barrel cut, chambered and re-threaded.
CHT
Quote from: Cowtown on February 05, 2017, 09:14:25 PM
I've missed 'em then. :'(
I routinely check the online firearms distributor houses and auction sites like GunBroker, Guns America, Buds, Impact and a couple smaller sites. Buffalo Arms has not had them. Over the last year I have called Texas Jacks as well, but no luck. I have seen a few short rifles and more than a few with 24" barrels, but the carbine has not materialized for me. Yet. I am patient and have no doubt I will find one. If you can point me in the right direction, please do.
Sure. I have said this a number of times over the years, but you're new here :)
If you want something that Cimarron carries that is not in stock, have your favorite local dealer (anyone with an FFL) call Cimarron and put it on backorder. There is no obligation (this is assuming an item normally carried. Special orders, like engraved guns or special finish, require a down payment). When the item shows up, whether 2 weeks or 2 years later, they go down the backorder list and will call your dealer to see if he (you) still wants it. If so, that is when the credit card comes out, and the dealer will pay dealer price. If the answer is no, for whatever reason, they say thank you and call the next person on the list. That way, when the item shows up from Italy, you find out about it and have a chance to buy it. There are two models of carbine, one with and one w/o saddle ring. If you have a preference, put that model on backorder. Otherwise, tell them you will take either.
Now, other importers (Taylors, EMF) may well have similar backorder policies, I'm not sure (although in this case, I believe only Cimarron carries the 44 Spcl long guns).
And BTW, just because 44 Spcl barrels may be listed by VTI, doesn't mean they have them in stock.
Let's go back to this "convert a 45 Colt to a Proprietary Cartridge" thing. WHAT???? I don't normally like to throw rocks, but rebarreling to 44 Special is gobs more expensive than dropping in a Carrier Bock with a cartridge stop for Cowboy 45 Special and relieving the side of the Breach Block. Plus, you can switch back to 45 Colt in about 5 minutes.
The C45S case is readily available, or easily made from 45 Colt brass. It happens to be a superb reduced power cartridge based on reduced case capacity. It it just about the perfect CAS cartridge. It also works perfectly in hand guns chambered for 45 Colt. Or, if one happens to have a SA with a 45 ACP cylinder in it, works perfect.
In a Henry, all it takes is to install a set screw through the Carrier Block and cut a slot in the side of the Breach Block. My 24 Inch Henry loads 18 C45S (not that I need to). The EASIEST and most simple solution for the OP is a Carrier Block for "The Smith Shop."
Coffinmaker
Quote from: Coffinmaker on February 06, 2017, 07:33:39 PM
Let's go back to this "convert a 45 Colt to a Proprietary Cartridge" thing. WHAT???? I don't normally like to throw rocks, but rebarreling to 44 Special is gobs more expensive than dropping in a Carrier Bock with a cartridge stop for Cowboy 45 Special and relieving the side of the Breach Block. Plus, you can switch back to 45 Colt in about 5 minutes.
The C45S case is readily available, or easily made from 45 Colt brass. It happens to be a superb reduced power cartridge based on reduced case capacity. It it just about the perfect CAS cartridge. It also works perfectly in hand guns chambered for 45 Colt. Or, if one happens to have a SA with a 45 ACP cylinder in it, works perfect.
In a Henry, all it takes is to install a set screw through the Carrier Block and cut a slot in the side of the Breach Block. My 24 Inch Henry loads 18 C45S (not that I need to). The EASIEST and most simple solution for the OP is a Carrier Block for "The Smith Shop."
Coffinmaker
He said he already has two Open Top's in .44 Special he said would fit the persona he desired, hence his desire for a .44 Special rifle.
From what I can see, the carrier is $170, where a new .44 Special barrel is but $65 more, plus if a fella changes out the barrel, he has a 45 Colt barrel he can either keep for another project or sell to recover a good part of his investment in the .44 Special barrel. I'm no gunsmith, but as I mentioned earlier I R&R-ed a barrel on a '73 and it was very simple, requiring no specialty tools other than a hydraulic press, some oak blocks (a 1" x 2" oak block from Home Depot, with no trimming at all, fit the carrier mortise like a glove) (and maybe a little rosin for a round barrel):
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/20160128_171829_zps003ri5x1.jpg) (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/20160128_171829_zps003ri5x1.jpg.html)
As far as the 45CS brass is concerned, I consider "readily available", as being stocked places like Midway, Graf's, Starline, etc. Who stocks the 45 CS brass and how much is it? I couldn't find any. I personally wouldn't consider trimming (cutting?) 3/8" off of a few hundred pieces of 45 Colt brass easy, but that's just me.
I understand the desire to replicate the .44 Henry, but with all the work involved, one would still be shooting a .45 caliber cartridge, whose only resemblance to the original cartridge would be the o.a.l. I mean if one
really wanted to come as close a possible to the Henry, swap the barrel out to .44 Special, modify the carrier to accept/feed .44 Russian brass (only ~.057" longer than the Henry case...a difference hardly perceptible to most) which is currently in stock at Starline for $106/500, and load a .430" bullet of similar profile to the original Henry bullet. Heck, Tom at www.Accuratemolds.com could likely even cut a mould for a bullet that would replicate the original FP Henry bullet...at least the part that sticks out of the case!
All the above is from someone who as a young man built a .257 Ackley Improved and years later realized how much more simple life would've been if I'd have just built a 25-06!
CHT
CHT,
I Hartley agree. Except. How many guys just happen to have a hydraulic press just laying around?? You can also do it with a big honkin vice and your aforementioned stick. Ain't that hard. It does get a little messy if the new barrel doesn't index or head space or both. And, the OP also mention most of his revolvers were 45 Colt.
I also agree slaving over a hot lathe turning down 45 colt to 45CS is not necessarily "fun" but with a powered case trimmer ('lectric drill motor) it's very dooable. New manufactured C45S brass is available from American Cowboy Ammo (Google Foo acammo.com). ACA doesn't list it on their home page (twits) but call em. Oh, and turning out 2500 45 Squirts (same same from 45 Schofield) mind numbingly boring. I ain't gonna do it again.
In my own personal quest for authenticity (close there to) I dropped a Smith Carrier Block in my 44 Special rifle and cut the barrel to 16 inches. Matched it up with a pair of really trick 44 Colt Open Tops. Of course, then I found the 44 Spcl rifle had a chamber the size of an oil well and foul'd out in 3 rounds of BP or Sub. Smokeless only (sob).
So, while both solutions are very doable, let us remember many of our fans are not tool poor and some are technically challenged. Let us remember to keep it simple. Or not ;D
Coffinmaker
Why not have Bob Hoyt reline and chamber your barrel to 44 Spl? I think he can do the job for around $200.
Lots more fun to do it the other ways ::)
Coffinmaker
There really is no right or wrong answer, unless the OP truly wants to closely replicate the original Henry cartridge, both ballistically and physically, in which case .44 caliber firearms are the most logical way.
I don't know about where you live CM, but around here hydraulic presses are as common as Smith's and Jones's. Not counting those at my place of employment, I pass two on the drive home that I can use.any time.
Some people people prefer to travel from St. Louis to Los Angeles via New York City....and that's OK.
CHT
I was after a 66 SRC in 44 special last year and finally found one listed on wholesalehunter or I think. I hit order and it came from Cimarron if I recall correctly. I think they only import a small number of these every year and I happen to find one fresh off the boat. I think Abeliene's suggestion on placing one on order would be better then a conversion. They are making new ones every year.
A henry on the other hand....
CHT,
True. The Henry, the original '66 and the Open Tops were all .44s. Closest approximation is .44 Russian.
Any way we get to the desired result is ........ correct. Since we can't shoot originals, "almost" has to be the goal. I'm eventually going to have the Coal Mine Shaft chamber cut out of my 44 Special 66 and have a sleeve made with a 44 snug 44 Russian chamber with a throat to the rifling. It just galls me to no end I didn't try the thing before I built it as a Trapper. Oh well. Some days you eat Bear. Others, the Bear eats you.
Would also have helped if I'd made the discovery "before" I sold my lathe. Some days are simply Diamonds ............
Coffinmaker
Thanks for all the feedback.
I am not much of a gun mechanic. Springs in Rugers, a little Stoeger SxS work and the 1 piece FP in a Marlin has been about it. I'll wrench on my Jeep all day no problem but with firearms, I'll leave that to folks who can do it right the first time.
Lots of great discussion. I appreciate it.
I'll keep searching and will probably put one on order based on sage advice.
8)
Sage, Rosemary and Thyme ::)
Coffinmaker
Quote from: Cowtown on February 07, 2017, 06:24:07 PM
Thanks for all the feedback.
I am not much of a gun mechanic. Springs in Rugers, a little Stoeger SxS work and the 1 piece FP in a Marlin has been about it. I'll wrench on my Jeep all day no problem but with firearms, I'll leave that to folks who can do it right the first time.
Lots of great discussion. I appreciate it.
I'll keep searching and will probably put one on order based on sage advice.
8)
Good grief! You missed one by about a month!
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/596839153
CHT
Quote from: Cholla Hill Tirador on February 08, 2017, 11:32:27 AM
Good grief! You missed one by about a month!
And this morning, I located one.
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Cowtown on February 08, 2017, 11:46:54 AM
And this morning, I located one.
;D ;D ;D
YES!! Many congrats!
CHT
BRAVO!
Good On Ya!!
Coffinmaker