Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Cas City Historical Society => Topic started by: Coal Creek Griff on September 12, 2016, 06:56:15 PM
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I’m not at all sure where this topic belongs; maybe this belongs over in the barracks. I’m looking for a somewhat historically correct way to hold some revolver ammo when I’m just at my home range shooting tin cans. For some of my guns, I have a cartridge belt, but for others I usually just have the ammo in the plastic cartridge boxes I use for storage when I reload them. I’m thinking that it would be handy to have some kind of pouch on my belt to hold part of a box of ammo that I would just refill periodically, but I don’t want to invest much. I guess my ideal at this point would be a modified Civil War cap pouch, as used after the war for revolver cartridges. I’ve seen a few reproductions that are a bit out of my price range, but there are reproduction cap pouches that are quite inexpensive (under $20). I’ve never even seen a cap pouch up close, so here are my questions: Would it be reasonable for me to do a similar modification as was done for the military (cutting back the inner flap and stitching part of that flap down to provide better retention of the cartridges)? As an alternative, would a Civil War cap pouch work as-is for holding a handful of revolver cartridges for casual shooting?
CC Griff
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FYI, I don't know whether these guys are any good, but
you could use a CW cap box like this
www.ccsutlery.com/store/capbox.html (http://www.ccsutlery.com/store/capbox.html)
or you could use a CW pistol cartridge box like this
http://www.ccsutlery.com/store/cartridge-box-pistol.html (http://www.ccsutlery.com/store/cartridge-box-pistol.html)
or this
http://www.militaryclothing.com/Civil-War-Pistol-Cartridge-Box.aspx (http://www.militaryclothing.com/Civil-War-Pistol-Cartridge-Box.aspx)
or
http://www.mountainstatesupply.com/Civil-War-Pistol-Cartridge-Box-Black_p_135.html
(http://www.mountainstatesupply.com/Civil-War-Pistol-Cartridge-Box-Black_p_135.html)
or this, made for roundballs, but it looks like a handcuff case to me
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Triple-K-Leather-Belt-Style-Bullet-Pouch-for-Black-Powder-Revolvers/740765.uts (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Triple-K-Leather-Belt-Style-Bullet-Pouch-for-Black-Powder-Revolvers/740765.uts)
or something more modern
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Triple-K-Box-Type-Leather-Cartridge-Holder/705113.uts? (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Triple-K-Box-Type-Leather-Cartridge-Holder/705113.uts?)
or
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/new-military-issue-leather-military-police-belt-pouch-us?a=1875290
(http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/new-military-issue-leather-military-police-belt-pouch-us?a=1875290)
or you can haunt fleabay or surplus stores for leather belt pouches like I do.
or try etsy
https://www.etsy.com/market/leather_belt_pouch (https://www.etsy.com/market/leather_belt_pouch)
or you could get a cheap piece of leather and whip up your own "old-timey-looking" pouch or drop box...
I am doing that right now, making couple of thin leather poiches to hold 2 or 3 "speed strips" .
yhs
prof marvel
yhs
prof marvel
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A veritable plethora of options, professor. Thanks!
CC Griff
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Ever think about just using your vest's pockets?
That would've been the most common thing.
'Back in the Day' - anyone engaging in target shooting opened the cartridge box and extracted what was needed to load and shoot - then, he punched out the empties - leaving them on the ground, because no one policed up brass and reloaded.
He did this until that box was empty, or until he got bored, and didn't get dolled up with extraneous equipment.
Scouts Out!
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I've used the pocket method for sure, but I was looking for something that was a bit more convenient. I'm not even striving for full authenticity here (it IS just my home range, after all). Rarely is anyone else around and I'm just wearing my regular clothes. I was just looking for a convenient way to carry the spare ammo and I was wondering if a reproduction cap box/pouch would work, not having seen one up close before. Here's what I'm currently looking at http://www.ebay.com/itm/291204107572?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/291204107572?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT). I'll probably spend the money and see how it goes.
Thanks for the suggestions!
CC Griff
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CC Griff,
The Civil War period cap pouch is just fine for spare revolver ammo.
The US Army, after the ACW, used them for this reason for a number of years after the war. Thousands of surplus cap pouches were available and this was how the Army used them up.
My suggestion would be to stay away from those embossed with the US, or CS on the front flap.
I hope this helps.
My best,
Blair
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Disclaimer: I was taught that, when you see something on the internet, the only thing that you really know for sure is that you saw it on the internet.
From the reading I have done--on the internet--it sounds like the surplus cap pouches were often modified to remove most of the inner flap and a "US" cartouche added to create a revolver ammunition box. It sounds like the original ACW pouches did not have the "US" embossed on the flap. Is that why you suggest against it? I'm way out of my element here...
Thanks.
CC Griff
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C C Griff,
Seldom were the cap pouches embossed with the US. However, you may find most will have a makers mark stamped on the outer flap.
There are two features in the Civil War Musket cap pouch that were not needed when cartridge revolver ammo was developed, the vent pick, and the inner pouch fleece flap. Both of these were commonly removed. (I take it this is the inner flap you are referring to?)
Post Civil War revolver ammo was often issued in a twelve round box. 6 went into the revolver and the other 6 went into the cap pouch. If more than one box of ammo was issued to the trooper, the unopened box went into the saddle bag or the horse shoe pouch near the pommel of the saddle, which was easier to gain access if need.
Hope this helps.
My best,
Blair
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It does help, Blair. Like I said, I've only seen photos of these items, so a more complete explanation helps a great deal
CC Griff
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I use a issue type pistol box , cut block of wood to fit and drilled 1/2" holes that allow the cartridges to stand up right ...deep enough to allow about 1/3 on the cartridge to stand proud to easy grasp....
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I use a issue type pistol box , cut block of wood to fit and drilled 1/2" holes that allow the cartridges to stand up right ...deep enough to allow about 1/3 on the cartridge to stand proud to easy grasp....
From the SASS Shooters Handbook;
"Bandoleers, cartridge belts, and pouches must be of traditional design (e.g., bandoleers must
be loose and not secured in any way to prevent movement). Modern drop pouches, combat
style shotgun loops, wrist or forearm bandoleers, and such are not allowed. Pouches shall
have a flap and must carry their contents loose, with no special provisions to organize the
contents for rapid retrieval."
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Quote from: Major 2 on Today at 05:56:13 am
I use a issue type pistol box , cut block of wood to fit and drilled 1/2" holes that allow the cartridges to stand up right ...deep enough to allow about 1/3 on the cartridge to stand proud to easy grasp....
From the SASS Shooters Handbook;
"Bandoleers, cartridge belts, and pouches must be of traditional design (e.g., bandoleers must
be loose and not secured in any way to prevent movement). Modern drop pouches, combat
style shotgun loops, wrist or forearm bandoleers, and such are not allowed. Pouches shall
have a flap and must carry their contents loose, with no special provisions to organize the
contents for rapid retrieval."
Can we discuss this ?
A. Below a photo of an Original , id est ... a "traditional design "
B. regards to the SASS hand book ...I don't shoot SASS
C. the OP asked " I’m looking for a somewhat historically correct way to hold some revolver ammo when I’m just at my home range shooting tin cans "
:) voila :)
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Major Two; I was interupted before I got into the NCOWS Tallybook. Fact is, many here have only SASS available at playtime.
To many in SASS Traditional design means that it looks kinda-oldie.
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To many in SASS Traditional design means that it looks kinda-oldie.
Oh Sir C!
now I have to clean the coffee off my keyboard!
Ever think about just using your vest's pockets?
St. George -
I myself actually prefer & use this method whenever possible, except when the heat becomes overpowewing!
the 4 pocket vests ( or my preference the 6 pocket vest, if they have 2 inner wallet pockets!) offer such a wide field of options!
I also prefer to keep my spare shotgun shells in my lower vest pockets, spare revolver cartridges in upper vest pockets. Some maintain it slows me down (true) but it helps me to compete for last place!
But then there is the problem, to quote Artemis Gordon from the controversial last "Wild Wild West"
"Where would I put my notebook?"
When it gets so hot I am reduced to a huge sombrero, T-shirt and shorts I confess I succomb to a less modernisch version
of a "framer carpenters belt" or the "Batman Utility Belt" whilst working around the yard: pouches holding flashlight, hammer, pliers, screwdriver, sheathknife, cellphone, revolver ... I fear that heat issues trump historicity :-(
Griff -
I see there are sellers on fleabay that offer the cap pouch even cheaper, with no embossed US or CS ....
yhs
prof marvel
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CAS has convinced many that people in the Old West strolled about everywhere as if they were a mobile "armory" with a rifle, shotgun, two handguns and various deringers & "muff" guns. ::) I am sure that where the person was located and the time period dictated much of how they were armed. Wild Bill Hickok likely didn't stroll around a Kansas cowtown with powder flask, spare balls & caps on his person. I am sure he kept those safely back in his abode. Even if he did carry them it is difficult to believe that after he expended his 10 to 12 rds. that he carried on his person that he could casually reload percussion revolvers under incoming fire.
Obviously, any smart person travelling in open hostile country would have all his implements for reloading percussion guns with him. I am sure that how they carried them were as varied as the people doing so. Personally, I would have them in a small "grip" that could quickly be removed from my horse in a second's notice or even slung over my shoulder in a haversack.
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Thanks again, fellas. All of these comments are helpful and quite entertaining.
CC Griff
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Just for the hell of it, let's go back to the original question...
The desire is to be able to carry some spare ammunition when plinking - not in competition or full dress - just carrying spare rounds.
If one goes to a more historically-correct method, then a vest would've been the solution for someone just banging away - but don't forget a standard, everyday cartridge belt.
Do either, and depending upon caliber, there's more than enough rounds easily available, and wonder of wonders - there's a holster conveniently right next to them - and 'that' hasn't been addressed, yet.
No SASS Rules - no wondering about cartridge pouch capacity or markings - no nothing, because nothing governs the activity.
Scouts Out!
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My self when out bumming around and carrying my pistol I load 6 (Ruger) and carry an extra 12 in a little calico cloth sack a bit TR larger than a Bull Durham sack. It's a 32 mag, bigger rounds would need a bigger sack, it even keeps dirt, chewing tobacco crumbs and the ever present Black Lab hair off them, been doing that for about 30 years and it seems to work fine.
If I needed more ammo I'd wear bibs since with all them pockets they just be the original tactical britches.
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Well now, since ya axed the question, I'll tell ya what I do. When I venture out shootin along my favorite shootin spots, a lot of the time in a wooded pasture with a river runnin through it, I carry spare ammo in a variety of ways. Sometimes wearing a pair of green camo bibs, as Delmonico penned, "the original tactical britches". Sometimes wearing one of my several pairs of military BDU's with all those wonderful pockets. Usually have several bandoleers slung crossways across my upper torso and/or a belt with loops around my waist. Something I found handy years ago while a LEO were M1 Carbine double ammo pouches. These neat little green pouches are perfect made for all the HXS speed loaders I used for shootin double action .357 (and any DA revolver). They hold two ammo loaded speed loaders perfectly. Used to strap around six of them all loaded up around my waist. Now please don't get all jumpled up saying "Hey this is a old timey forum, not about modern handgun shootin". They work, I've even put six loose rounds of 45 Colt in each space, ie 12 rds per pouch.
I bought several Russian Mosin-Nagant rifles 7.62x54 rifles for my WW2 military collection. Ugliest gun out of all that came out of that era (IMO), but they're shooters. Anyway with every gun came a Russian ammo pouch, you've seen them. Great ammo carrier, even use them to carry balls and wads when shootin my cap and balls. Bought a few extra for slingin through a belt and strappin around my waist. Old 12 round slide ammo loops from my LEO days are pressed into service when shooting 38/357 guns-even employ a 38/357 double ammo dump pouch. Around the waist loops are used also. Cooler weather brings out my old Vietnam era green Army jacket with its spacious pockets. A cross chest heavy duty camo condura pouch that has a lot of room for all kinds of ammo and whatever is sometimes used. Back in the early days, I took an old leather white purse of one of my sisters, dyed it black and it was slung on me along many of shootin jaunts in thee ol sandpit we used to shoot in, river bankin shoots, huntin expeditions, etc. Used to get a lot of razin' about it from friends, but they were always glad I had it when they needed some of the various things besides ammo I carried in it. Water bottle, screw drivers, gum, hard candy, chew of RedMan, etc.
Sometimes I just keep it simple, wearin nothin but a pair of bluejeans, stuffin as much ammo in their pockets as I can, and go plinkin, usually wish I had brought more. I like this shootin over any paper punchin, stage shootin, or any other. Very fun and relaxin. OK, this got longer and more wordy than I planed. Back in the 60's-70's a country music player by the name of Tommy Collins, wrote and recorded a song called "Remember Opal, You Asked Me" about a guy telling his wife why he was leaving. A comic list of reasons, its on the web (You-Tube) if your curious. I know it's not something to make light of, but Collins wrote/recorded a gem. OK, I'm done, I know some of the items I carry ammo in aren't cowboy, SASS/NCOWS approved, period correct, etc, etc, but they work and as in the song--- "Remember You Asked Me"!
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Most days I wear regular Wrangler jeans that have a watch pocket on the right hand side. I carry a single action pistol on my pants belt. I carry ammo in the watch pocket. It will hold 5 or 6 44wcf cartridges easily. I'm just out around the ranch so that plus what is in the pistol is plenty. Works for me. And there is a rifle in the truck.
John aka JTHBJR
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My replies to the OP were based on the heading of this forum, "CAS City Historical Society".
I know the OP was not looking for "Historical" documentation, however, I chose to reply with the documentation I had on this subject.
I do not recall the exact place I obtained this info. but there are two sets of books that I would highly suggest, each are or were three volume set,
Randy Steffen's, "The Horse Soldier 1776 - 1943" and F. Todd's, "American Military Equipage, 1851-1872".
Both offer great references as well to the Military archives but excellent line art drawings based off of original objects. I do not know if either of these are still in print.
I hope this helps address my intention in my reply.
My best,
Blair
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Again, gents, many options here and more than a little entertaining. Actually I think it's a great discussion. I've enjoyed hearing both the "historical" responses and the "this is what I do" responses.
Shooting tin cans (what someone here called "The Campbells Gang") is my favorite form of shooting. I can vary between a form of precision shooting and fast shooting at will, with positive reinforcement when I make a hit. For most .44 and .45 revolvers, I use cartridge loops to hold the spare ammo, although I sometimes get lazy and just put the plastic ammo box on the ground if I'm not walking around. For my .45-70 rifles, I wear another cartridge belt backwards (so the loops are in the front) above my pistol belt. I have some old photos to support the historical validity of that, but I'm usually just on my home range anyway. For my Spencer, I use a Blakeslee box, which I find to be really convenient.
For my smaller revolvers, I'm kind of stuck, hence the original question. I prefer a somewhat historical method, but I only have to satisfy myself. As I said, I didn't know which forum to use and just picked this one. I'm going to buy a CW cap pouch (with no US embossing) and try it out. At this point, it will be mainly for my .44 Colt RM conversion and I think that's appropriate. That way, if I DO wear it out in public or to an NCOWS match or something, maybe I'll fit in.
Thanks again, fellas. I have really appreciated all of the comments.
CC Griff
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Sorry I'm late to the party.
I have a cap pouch copy, it holds about 18-20 45 Colts I think. Its sort of handy to carry some spares around, but doesn't seem very handy to actually load out of. Belts or pockets seem more so. Vest pockets don't seem very friendly to my hands though.
Ive used deerskin bags of various sizes, drawstring types, with and without beadwork, and have used canvas bags with deerskin strings attached to tie them closed. both are handy for loaded and empty shells. A shoulder bag is perhaps more generally useful for anything more than a few rounds. I eye my bag I used for my caplock rifle now and then, thinking it would make a decent cartridge rifle hunting bag.
For pure handiness, Ive been thinking of using the shotgun shell belt bag, the modern style for shotgun sports. My dad had a nice soft leather one with two compartments. I think it would be real handy for shooting and segregating loaded and empty pistol and rifle shells, just as used for shotgun shells. Another semi-modern option that would probably pass for older style is the shell bags by Duluth Pack and Frost River. The 50 size (sized by how many shotgun shells theyd hold) seems like a decent size without getting too large or cumbersome.
Rather than plastic boxes, I usually prefer quart size freezer grade Ziploc bags for loaded and empty shells.
Been looking for pictures of my deerskin cartridge bag but have not succeeded.
I believe this is a size 50 type shell bag from Duluth Pack,
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By way of update (as well as raising an old post back to life ala Dr. Frankenstein), I ended up purchasing a cheap cap pouch through Ebay. I removed the poorly attached lamb skin that was inside. The pouch seems sturdy enough and I've found that I can loosely dump 15 rounds of 44 Colt inside and close the flap. That allows me to have three releads available before I need to pick up the ammo box again. Then, I just dump 15 rounds from the box into my hand and pour them into the pouch. It's easy to grab the ammo from the pouch and I don't even fasten the flap most of the time. (The only time that's been an issue is when I drop a loaded round on the ground and bend down to pick it up. Then, if the flap is open and the pouch is full, more tend to fall out, creating a comic opera scene that makes me glad my personal range is private and no one is watching.)
Again, this is just something I'm using at my home range for plinking, but if I was heading out into the field, a loaded revolver and three complete reloads might be just about right.
Thanks again for the above comments and suggestions!
CC Griff