Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => Topic started by: Dave T on May 23, 2016, 02:55:41 PM
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I've always been attracted by the idea of shooting original performance ammo from guns of the black powder cartridge era and I put a lot of effort into accomplishing that years ago.
Research indicated the original load was with FFg but I couldn't get enough of that granulation in modern, solid head cases to duplicate the oft quoted original performance of 910 fps. What I came up with was a very compressed FFFg load of 36g behind a 255g RNFP. From a 7-1/2" 1st Gen Colt I got average velocities ranging from 907 fps to 914 fps, depending on the time of the year (outside temp).
Since this time around I'm starting from stretch with different guns, different bullets, even different brass (brand-new Starline cases) so before I re-invent the wheel (LOL) I thought I'd ask what folks here do for full power 45 Colt ammunition. I'd be grateful for any and all info you're willing to pass on.
Thanks in advance,
Dave
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Dave, any amount of powder(FF or FFF) above about 35 grs. in moderm cases is going to require some degree of compression. Some have actually managed to get 40 grs in a modern case, but I bet they really leaned into the compression die. It sounds like you want to stick with a bullet in the 250/255 range of the original loading. Depending on which bullet you select, some sit a little deeper in the case than others. This will affect your powder charge as well if you are sticking to the maximum cartridge OAL of 1.600. Some revolver cylinders will enable you to exceed that measurement, thus creating a little more case capacity. If you want to duplicate the original velocities ( it sounds like you did in your first attempts), stick with the hotter powders like Swiss or Olde Eynsford. Good luck with your experiments and let us know how you make out.
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All my research has pointed to these cartridges being loaded with what we now would consider 3f powder. I have broke down several original Frankford Arsenal loadings, and all had the finer granulation.
F's are a modern designation. Both the .45-70 and the Colt round were loaded with "Rifle" grade powder, which appears to be what we consider a "3"f granulation. "Musket" grade seems to correspond to "2" f, with "Pistol" grade being close to 4f as seen in original Percussion "Skin" cartridges. I believe this to be one reason velocity's seem lower with "Modern" powder, because we are consistently using the wrong granulation.
My Trapdoor 45-70s, loaded with 3f, will shoot to the sights, with 2f loads shooting high.
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Drydock,
That's interesting information - first time I've seen it. Thanks for the enlightenment.
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That's news to me. I'll need to load up a 3F round or two to feed to my Trapdoor, see how it does. Thanks for sharing the info!
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Drydock,
Great info! In all the years I delved into this subject in the past, and all the reading I've done lately trying to catch up, I've never heard that and it is obviously very important to know. Thanks a bunch for passing that gem of historical knowledge on. I will remain in your debt…
Dave
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If you go back into the old documentation, ie pre ww1, you will find references to the various granulations in terms of "Musket" "Rifle" "Pistol" . There are others, but I tried to determine what those meant, and how they correspond to the modern "F" designations. I believe the modern ideas of "2F in 40 caliber and above" et al, came about in the 1950s from early ML reinactors, and it somehow became entrenched as "Old Knowledge" But like so much BP info from that era, (Cleaning, fouling, lubricant, use of water) it's wrong.
I cannot prove it, but a theory of mine is that someone back in the 50s decided to call 4f "Priming" powder for his flintlock. This is apocryphal, as Flintlocks were primed with whatever powder was in the paper cartridge or powder horn of the user. Few if any Flintlock users, and certainly NO military, ever carried a separate priming powder. But this somehow got accepted as "Truth". Well then, what is this "Pistol" grade stuff? Well that must have been 3f. And so on. Then the johnny come lately cartridge guys accepted that the old frontstuffers must know what they're talking about . . .
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just to prove the point: The original Frankford Arsenal military .45 Colt loading was 35 grains "Rifle" grade powder under a 255 conical for 910 fps. Your 3f load matched that perfectly. Your 2f load did not. Those original loads were in Benet inside primed cases, which because of the extra priming cup in the base of the cartridge, had a capacity very close to that of modern "Solid" head cases. 35 Grains was the standard Colt commercial load as well. The 40 grain loads were a much later offering by UMC and Winchester.
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Holy Crap My Good Drydock!
I had read of the older definitions, but did not realize that "pistol" grade was closer to 4F!
Have you ever tried loading 4F into pistol cartridges, or do you have knowledge of anyone beside Elemr Kieth who did?
yhs
prof marveling
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Oh yes, I especialy like 4f in my 38 S&W Iver Johnsons. I also use 4f in .45 acp cases in the extra 45 acp cylinder of my Cimmarron 7th Cav. I have shot 4f in a Nagant revolver, great fun, and in my .36 Navys. It also works well in a Bodeo. I tend to reserve its use for applications of 20 grains or less. That seems to be its historical usage as well.
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Darned interesting. I'll have to order some FFFFG the next time around and try in my 32-20's. and 38S&W. And also my 45 ACP for Wild Bunch!
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I have some ffffg downstairs, I'll be trying it in my National Match Gold Cup for Wild Bunch as well.
No one seems to use it in the 45 Colt, is that right.
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Not that I've seen. There is the legend of Elmer Kieth, who blew off the topstrap of a .45 SAA with a full case of 4f. But it was an iron framed gun, and he'd loaded a 405 grain 458 bullet! I suspect the bullet more than the powder was the primary cause.
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Oh yes, I especialy like 4f in my 38 S&W Iver Johnsons. I also use 4f in .45 acp cases in the extra 45 acp cylinder of my Cimmarron 7th Cav. I have shot 4f in a Nagant revolver, great fun, and in my .36 Navys. It also works well in a Bodeo. I tend to reserve its use for applications of 20 grains or less. That seems to be its historical usage as well.
I have a 1911 I'm setting up to shoot BP in. How many gs of 4f do you use in your 45 acp?
Thanks
wM1
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20, under a Lee 230 LRN, WLP primer. This is out of a revolver, I've never shot BP loads in my 1911s, though I do not see that there would be any problem with it. I like to use these for faster reloading. The short case with no rim really pops out of the SAA.
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Thanks much appreciated. wM1
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wildman,
I knew a guy many years ago (late 1970s) who tried black powder in a 1911 45 ACP. This was before the days of SPG or similar lubes and he had just loaded the same 230g cast bullets he used with smokeless. As I recall, and I was there the day he tried it, he only fired 5 rounds…all he had loaded. The BP fouling gummed up the semi-auto sufficiently that he couldn't go on without dousing the gun down with lubricants and cycling the slide half a dozen times. At the time he decided it wasn't worth pursuing but everyone there agreed it was spectacular to watch for the first few shots.
Dave
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just to prove the point: The original Frankford Arsenal military .45 Colt loading was 35 grains "Rifle" grade powder under a 255 conical for 910 fps. Your 3f load matched that perfectly. Your 2f load did not. Those original loads were in Benet inside primed cases, which because of the extra priming cup in the base of the cartridge, had a capacity very close to that of modern "Solid" head cases. 35 Grains was the standard Colt commercial load as well. The 40 grain loads were a much later offering by UMC and Winchester.
As an aside, there were a couple of other reasons the Army reduced the charge to the 35 gr. charge: First, there were a number of incidents of the iron cylinders of the early Colt's "strap pistol" (Single Action Army) blowing up until Colt's switched to steel cylinders! Second, the recoil of the 40/250 loading was found to be uncomfortable for the small hands of the average trooper. IIRC, the Army also reduced the bullet weight to 230 grains. Commercial ammunition companies did market the 40/250-255 loadings later. When S&W brought out the Schofield revolver, they probably found that the full charge Army .45 Colt's round was too stiff for their guns, so they shortened the cylinder and brought out the .45 Revolver Ball (aka .45 Schofield) with either a 28 or 30 gr charge behind the 230 gr. bullet. When logistical problems proved troublesome, the Army dropped the Colt's loading, and issued the shorter, lighter round to troops using either pistol (until they finally surplussed off the Schofields).
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Wow, some great info here.
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The 45 Schofield must have been close to the 45 Cowboy (or the other way around, lol).
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Historically speaking, there have been several different .45 Colt b.p. loadings in boxer primed cases over the years.
.........28 grs., 35 grs., 38 grs., 40 grs.
Awhile back I purchased some U.M.C. headstamped .45 Colt b.p. ammunition. I dissected the cartridges and found that three of them contained the 35 gr charge and the rest, 40 grs. The powder had a polished appearance and screening determined that it was FFG granulation.
I annealed the cases and replaced the primers. I loaded the powder back into the cases. The 40 gr charges in the SHBP (Solid Head Button Pocket aka balloon head) cases required .20" of compression. I replaced the dried out lube on the bullets with SPG and reseated them.
Average velocity in a 7 1/2" barrel was 932 f.p.s. In a 24" barrel .... 1,247 f.p.s.
The three 35 gr. cartridges averaged 877 f.p.s. in the Ruger.
By comparison, velocities with 40 grs of Goex FFG ran about 100 f.p.s. less.
In further testing, only Swiss and Olde Eynsford FFG had the ballistic strength to equal the velocity of the powder used in those pre 1911 U.M.C. cartridges.
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/UMC45ColtBPpaint.jpg)
Here is a pic of a vintage 28 gr. cartridge box I found on the internet awhile back.
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/45%20Colt%20UMC28%20gr.jpg)
w44wcf
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The more we know the more questions we ask (smile).
According to Drydock's earlier post, the granulation used in the original 45 Colt loadings was closer to our modern day FFFg than FFg.
According to w44wcf's research the powder he found in the rounds he took apart was more like FFg than FFFg. Curiouser and curiouser!
Back in my youth (lol) I loaded 35-36g of FFFg behind a 255g 20-1 RNFP bullet to duplicate the often quoted performance of 910 fps from a 7-1/2" barrel. My thought for this time around was to try the same charge (~35g of FFFg) with a 250g 454190 bullet and see what happens through the chronograph screens.
I will report the results as soon as the components come together and I can make my busted-up self get to the shop and cobble together the ammo. More to follow.
Dave
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I researched Military loading. The various commercial manufacturers loaded differently over the years, in response to more power, less recoil, et al. No different than happens today.
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The 45 Schofield must have been close to the 45 Cowboy (or the other way around, lol).
Me thinks there is several grains powder difference between the two!
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Howdy
I picked up this box of Frankford Arsenal cartridges a couple of years ago. As you can see, they were made in 1874, and carried a 250 grain bullet over 30 grains of powder. I am not going to dissect any to see what the granulation is or if there is wadding over the powder, however I suspect there is.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/cartridges/45ColtBenetPrimedBox02_zps0e1df06e.jpg)
Although these look like rimfires, they are not. These cartridges have the old Benet style internal priming. They are copper cased, not brass, and the dents near the bottom hold the internal anvil plate in place. The round all the way on the right is one of my own reloads for comparison.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/cartridges/45ColtBenetPrimedBox03_zps73800f6e.jpg)
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Driftwood,
Don't blame you a bit for not dissecting one of those beauties. Definitely collectible and having the box and all 12 rounds just adds to the value. With one missing for dissection it would diminish the impact, both visually and financially.
Congrats on a great find/acquisition and thanks for showing it to us.
Dave
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I've always been attracted by the idea of shooting original performance ammo from guns of the black powder cartridge era and I put a lot of effort into accomplishing that years ago.
Research indicated the original load was with FFg but I couldn't get enough of that granulation in modern, solid head cases to duplicate the oft quoted original performance of 910 fps. What I came up with was a very compressed FFFg load of 36g behind a 255g RNFP. From a 7-1/2" 1st Gen Colt I got average velocities ranging from 907 fps to 914 fps, depending on the time of the year (outside temp).
Since this time around I'm starting from stretch with different guns, different bullets, even different brass (brand-new Starline cases) so before I re-invent the wheel (LOL) I thought I'd ask what folks here do for full power 45 Colt ammunition. I'd be grateful for any and all info you're willing to pass on.
Thanks in advance,
Dave
This is a mite late, but I did manage to put a 40 grain charge of GOEX 2fg in some Winchester cases. I had to compress the powder with a compression die after I poured it thru a drop tube.
I then seated a 250 grain PRS big lube boolit in the case and gave it a good roll crimp. I made up two hundred like this and shot them at a match some years ago. I do not know what the velocity was, but the blast, concussion, and recoil was like touching off a twelve pounder. I also used fifty of the Lyman Cowboy RNFP 250grain cast bullets. Same results.
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HaHa! Way to go Grapeshot!
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Wildman and Dave,
I load 17 grains by weight of Olde Eynsford (or Swiss) FFFg with a 220 grain bullet in my 1911. The pistol runs indefinitely with this load and no cleaning. I've fired 100 rounds without cleaning and with no malfunctions.
It's a hoot to bring it to a Wild Bunch match and mess with folks minds! ;D
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BPB....Are you gonna try Grapeshot's load? I want to be on your Posse if you do!
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I have a pair of 45Ruger NM Vaqueros, they are looking good for Grapeshot's load!
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4FoD...I'd like to see these shot, but don't think I can afford the trip!
I'll stick with my 45 S&W loads for CAS!
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I should have specified in my initial post that I'm interested in duplicating full powder civilian ammo. That's confusing enough without adding in the military's inability to settle on what cartridge they were going to shoot (lol).
Back in the late 1980s when I first looked into this most everyone accepted the 40g of FFg charge as the standard civilian load so that was what I duplicated with a lucky find of 50 NOS balloon head cases. I had a custom mould that threw a 255g RNFP 20-1 alloy slug which I sized to .454" and lubed with SPG. With considerable compression I got 40g of GOEX under that bullet and tested the results through rebuilt 1st Gen Colts with 4-3/4", 5-1/2" and 7-1/2" barrels. The results were 865 fps, 887 fps and 914 fps respectively. Since the balloon head cases were not going to last forever (they started failing after the 3rd reloading) I searched for an alternative load in modern brass cases and came up with the 36g of FFFg load mentioned earlier.
I've learned recently that there may well have been as much variation in civilian loads as there was in military versions, but my interest remains in the full blown black powder offerings. If you haven't fired these maximum effort rounds from a SAA revolver you have a whole new experience waiting for you.
For one thing you will be surprised at the power of this black powder loading. I used to routinely knock over the steel targets of the "IPSC in boots" match directors and this was from a load developing just over half the chamber pressure of a standard 38 special (10,000 psi vs 18,000 psi). Then too the fact that all that performance is contained in such a compact, graceful, well balanced and beautiful package as the Colt Single Action Army revolver.
I never won any matches back in my CAS days but then that wasn't why I was there. I wanted to relive the experience of shooting the guns of the post-Civil War West and that included what it was like to shoot the same ammunition they shot back then, not some watered down version or even an entirely different cartridge with half the recoil so I can win a plastic pin or trophy.
That same motivation that drove me 25-30 years ago to pursue what the original performance was, is driving me to seek out the same thing with the components available today with the newly manufactured guns I now have.
Dave
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Some of the BH cases from the days of BP and the transition to smokiless era actually may have held a little less powder than todays modern brass. I do not know about revolver loads but my 38-56 BH cases weigh more and have less capacity than the modern cases of today. wM1
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4FoD...I'd like to see these shot, but don't think I can afford the trip!
I'll stick with my 45 S&W loads for CAS!
HaHa! I'mm too old to be fast, but I sure can be theatrical!
I'm not a stickler for absolute adherance to correct historical stuff, but do like to recreate the experience. In addition to that, I have never been one to go for 'cap gun' loads, unrealistic guns, etc. I used to shoot long range rifle / Bisley / Palma style matches but lost interest when they went from shooting rifles that looked like rifles started watering down the rules and ended up with rifles that looked like space guns. The same as when I used to shoot 'combat' revolver matches. I kept my trigger pressures standard and my loads reasonable. With ear muffs on, the other guys sounded like they were shooting cap guns, mine sounded like a real gun. Did I win? No. Was I ever going to win? No. Did I enjoy the experience? YESSSSSSSSSSSS! When questioned about my gun, loads, etc, etc, I would say, I'm not trying to win, I'm just trying to beat the big guy's last score (me) and have fun.
It's still fun and no matter how you approach your shooting (or anything else in life), is your business. Good onya as we Aussies say.
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.45 Colt / 40 grs. Swiss FFG / 257 gr. bullet / SPG
Marlin .45 Colt Cowboy Rifle / Tang Sight
Benchrest
300 meters / 327 yards ;D
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/45Colt300Mbp.jpg)
w44wcf
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That's mighty fine shooting!
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Thank you. I did shoot from a benchrest but the load / rifle did the work. ;D
Bullet was the RCBS clone of the historically correct 452190.
Here is a comparison between a settled 40 gr. charge by weight in early and current brass.
The early balloon head case has about 3 grs. more capacity.
Swiss powder is 10% more dense than Goex so 40 grs. by weight of Swiss in modern brass
would require about the same compression as Goex in the SHBP case.
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/45%20Colt%2040%20grs%20Goex%20FFG%20%20BH%20and%20current%20brass.jpg)
w44wcf
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Somewhere in the back of my stuff pile is a cigar box full of the old .45 Colt button head cases.
i would like to try loading some to the original specs. but they are almost rimless, do not have the groove under the rim, and will not fit into any shell holder I have.
As interesting as it might be the only way to load them would be with a Lyman tong tool that dates back to the early '50s when i started hand loading. The pleasure is not worth the pain.
Yr Obt Svt
Bunk
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I have some of those, too. I do have a shellholder that will fit them, but it's different than the one I use for my other .45 cases. They tend to "pop" through the shellholder when priming on the press. I just put them away and use modern ones.
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w44wcf,
I remember back 30+ years ago, when I was doing this the first time, I had trouble seating my 255g custom 20-1 bullets to an over-all length of 1.6". Compressing 40g of GOEX, even in those balloon head cases I had, took so much pressure it distorted the nose of the soft bullets. I ended up talking a machinist/gunsmith friend into shaping a seating stem to exactly fit my bullet's profile. It allowed me to load the 40g duplicates I was trying to create and later what became my standard load of 36g of FFFg in modern brass without distorting my soft lead slugs. Wish I still had all that stuff. (smile)
Dave
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Dave,
As you indicated, the softer bullets won't stand up to more than a bit of compression without being distorted. Sorry that you apparently don't still have your equipment of 30+ years ago.
For the .45 Colt and 40 gr charges, I have been using a hard cast .44 bullet to compress the powder.
For the .44-40, I was using a jacketed 10MM bullet but recently had an aluminum .420" dia slug made in the profile of the bullet I am using and that works great. I need to do the same thing for the .45 Colt.
w44wcf
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I did this chrony test of full powered loads just recently:
The guns used are a Pietta (Heritage Big Bore) 4 3/4in, Cimarron Old Model P 5 1/2in, and a Uberti Old Model P 7 1/2in.
The load is 40 grns of FFFG (3F) Olde Eynsford under a 250grn PRS Big Lube bullet. All loads fired 10 feet from chrono.
4 3/4 Bbl Pietta:
1. 925
2. 903
3. 927
4. 923
5.934
Average 922.4
Cimarron 5 1/2 Bbl :
1. 1004
2. 967
3. 1048
4. 1070
5. 1047
Average 1027.2
Uberti 7 1/2 Bbl:
1. 1028
2. 1049
3. 1018
4. 1026
5. 1010
Average 1026.2
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medic,
From all the research I did years ago, your results indicate that load was a bit much in what I'm gusssin' was modern brass. You got something of an over load in terms of the original performance. As I alluded to earlier top velocities should be in the neighborhood of 860 or so from a 4-3/4" barrel; about 885 from a 5-1/2" barrel; and a bit over 900 from a 7-1/2" barrel. You were getting high 7-1/2" velocity from your 4-3/4" barreled revolver.
Because of the low operating pressure of black powder I doubt hurt anything but in solid head cases those were kind of overloads to my thinking. No offense intended, just offering an observation.
Dave
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Yeah, I definitely backed off to 35 grn loads (2.2cc dipper) afterward. Easier to get even 200 loads from a pound and no sense in battering myself.
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medic151al,
Thank you for the data. :). Impressive! I'll bet those were a handful!
Even though your velocities with 3F Olde E. exceed the vintage .45 Colt loads of yesteryear,
the pressures are still only about 1/3 of what the brass will take.
I found that 40 grs. by weight of Olde E. 2F / 250 gr. pretty much matched the ballistics of the .45 Colt b.p. loading of yesteryear.
In my testing, Olde Eynsford & Swiss have the highest ballistic strength of the b.p.'s of today.
w44wcf
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Question for you two guys. I was never able to get 40 grains of FFg GOEX in modern brass and seat a bullet to an OAL of 1.6". As my fading memory suggests I had a fair amount of trouble with 40g of FFFg GOEX in solid head cases as well.
Are Olde Eynsford & Swiss powders that different (denser) than the GOEX of 25-30 years ago or do you guys know some loading tricks I was and still am ignorant of? Inquiring minds (or at least this old one) want to know. (smile)
Dave
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I drop slowly from an elevated funnel like a drop tube. Ill have about a 1/4in of gap from top of case. Seating slowly on a Big Lube bullet. Can feel the powder compression.
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I drop slowly from an elevated funnel like a drop tube. Ill have about a 1/4in of gap from top of case. Seating slowly on a Big Lube bullet. Can feel the powder compression.
To reiterate other posts, a soft bullet is not the tool to compress the powder charge in any caliber. I went the route of using a compression die. Then I can compress the charge to the required depth without deforming the bullet. T do this with my .45 Colt, .45/70, and .45 S&W Schofield rounds. If using the bullet works for you, great. It did not for me. My results were impressive when I touch them off. JMTCW.
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Question for you two guys. I was never able to get 40 grains of FFg GOEX in modern brass and seat a bullet to an OAL of 1.6". As my fading memory suggests I had a fair amount of trouble with 40g of FFFg GOEX in solid head cases as well.
Are Olde Eynsford & Swiss powders that different (denser) than the GOEX of 25-30 years ago or do you guys know some loading tricks I was and still am ignorant of? Inquiring minds (or at least this old one) want to know. (smile)
Dave
Dave,
The pic in several posts above indicates that .28" of compression is needed on a settled charge (powder poured slowly through a funnel from about 4-5" above the funnel). If I am using a bullet that is 14+BHN, i compress the powder with the bullet. If the bullet hardness is less than that, I compress the powder in a separate operation.
The density of Olde Eynsford is pretty much the same as some current and older standard Goex powders. Swiss is 10% denser. In other words, 40 grs.of Swiss will occupy the same space as 36 grs of Goex in the lots that I have.
w44wcf
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I went the route of using a compression die.
Never seen or heard of a "compression die". Can you tell me more about this?
Dave
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Track of the Wolf sells compresion dies. I have purchased some for 45-70 and 38-55 from them. It is basically the body for an expanding die with an adjustable plug. You adjust the plug to compress the powder to the level you want (depth of bullet).
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I just read 4foD post: [ I should have specified in my initial post that I'm interested in duplicating full powder civilian ammo. That's confusing enough without adding in the military's inability to settle on what cartridge they were going to shoot (lol).]
The Civilian max charge started out as 40 grains of an undetermined grade of Black Powder. Then Remington/UMC as well as Winchester dropped the charge to 35 grains of BP pushing a 250 to 255 grain hollow based/cup based swaged conical bullet.
The Military however dropped their charge for the .45 Colt to 30 grains of 2Fg below a one-quarter inch cork wad under a 250/255 grain lead bullet.
The Army then opted for the Schofield round and charged them with 28 to 30 grains of 2Fg and a 230 grain HB bullet.
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Hello,
I have the RCBS 45-270-SA (285gr) mold...
Would this bullet be too heavy for an 1883 Colt SAA?
If this seems reasonable, how much black powder could be safely used, and should the bullet be fairly soft, maybe not too tight or heavily crimped? 25gr with a wad?
Or would a 200gr bullet with say 30gr of 3F be a safer bet?
Thanks!
Gil.
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Welcome to CASS forum!
With an 1883 I would personally go with a 200 grn with 30 grains of 2FG BP.
I am sure you had the SAA checked for safe operation and would use this load to go easy on the revolver of that age. No use in stressing the old gal.
Pics of the revolver would be welcomed! ;D
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Holy Crap My Good Drydock!
I had read of the older definitions, but did not realize that "pistol" grade was closer to 4F!
Have you ever tried loading 4F into pistol cartridges, or do you have knowledge of anyone beside Elemr Kieth who did?
yhs
prof marveling
Professor
I have a friend uses FFFFg in his 357 Lightening - 357 magnum makes a durn fine blackpowder round - 21 grains weight and MR LEE's 158 grain RNFP boolit - have not chronoed it but sounds just nice.
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If you go back into the old documentation, ie pre ww1, you will find references to the various granulations in terms of "Musket" "Rifle" "Pistol" . There are others, but I tried to determine what those meant, and how they correspond to the modern "F" designations. I believe the modern ideas of "2F in 40 caliber and above" et al, came about in the 1950s from early ML reinactors, and it somehow became entrenched as "Old Knowledge" But like so much BP info from that era, (Cleaning, fouling, lubricant, use of water) it's wrong.
I cannot prove it, but a theory of mine is that someone back in the 50s decided to call 4f "Priming" powder for his flintlock. This is apocryphal, as Flintlocks were primed with whatever powder was in the paper cartridge or powder horn of the user. Few if any Flintlock users, and certainly NO military, ever carried a separate priming powder. But this somehow got accepted as "Truth". Well then, what is this "Pistol" grade stuff? Well that must have been 3f. And so on. Then the johnny come lately cartridge guys accepted that the old frontstuffers must know what they're talking about . . .
Drydock - just interested in how, where, and when, use of water is wrong?? The best blackpowder solvent /cleaning fluid and its free !!!
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Thanks Medic. No pictures yet, I just put a hold on it...
Gil.
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Moosemilk is my chosen cleaner/solvent/lubricator/rust preventer. The water does the work and the Ballistol does the rest. Moosemilk is colloidal suspension of one part Ballistol to Ten parts water. This is what I spritz my bores with before I tug the Bore Snake thru.
DD-MDA
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Historically speaking, there have been several different .45 Colt b.p. loadings in boxer primed cases over the years.
.........28 grs., 35 grs., 38 grs., 40 grs.
Awhile back I purchased some U.M.C. headstamped .45 Colt b.p. ammunition. I dissected the cartridges and found that three of them contained the 35 gr charge and the rest, 40 grs. The powder had a polished appearance and screening determined that it was FFG granulation
The 40 gr charges in the SHBP (Solid Head Button Pocket aka balloon head) cases required .20" of compression.
Average velocity in a 7 1/2" barrel was 932 f.p.s.
w44wcf
I’ve dug 35 gr charges of 2fg BP out of 45 Colt case sand I don’t know how it could be done with out damaging the individual granuals.
For me the dug out powder (GOEX) broke up to dust mostly finer than 4 fg, true dust. So I do believe the velocity achieved in the 7 ½ “ barrel loading the dust back into those original cases.
As to the original poster question about duplicating maximum power original 45 Colt loads. I think the problem is trying to determine if there was one original load. I do believe a 40 gr charge was tried by the US Cavlery during initial load development but it was quickly deemed too hard on the Colt SAA and the shooter. So the charge was reduced and changed many times there after. I would say that there was no original load, just a wide variety of loads all tried and some accepted for use by the government.
I load 35 gr of 2 fg GOEX in Starline minimum trim to length brass with CCI 350 mag primers and a cast 20:1 alloy 261 gr bullet with SPG lube. I get a average velocity in an Ruger NV 5.5” barrel of 817 fps.
Just for information using the same components listed above but swapping the BP for 9.0 grs (.2 under max) Hodgdon CFE Pistol got me 1040 fps.
So I think any powder charge 35 grs up to 40 grs could be called your maximum.
I’ve seen a uTube video of 45 Colt 7 ½” SAA chron’’ng 1000 fps for some shots with 40 gr of BP.
Unless you want to duplex a BP load with some smokeless the MV you get with your revolver with what ever charge of BP you use is fixed by the gun it’s self. No 2 guns will launch the same load to the same MV.
So what’s like to load up a S&W X frame 460s&w with 2 fg BP? Should make for a nice big cloud of smoke. Wish I had one of those.
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The loads you chose to load depend on your mission. If it's deer hunting, then go for the maximum. If you want the absolute most WOWS at a SASS match, go with the maximum. But, if you are in the game for speed and accuracy, go for a manageable recoil load that delivers consistent velocities and known accuracy. With Holy Black, you do have options with this venerable old cartridge and the guns chambered for it. If your gun is vintage old, respect the old gal and load down a bit. If your gun is a modern Ruger, then stuff in all the Holy Black you can and the gun will only ask for more.
DD-MDA
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Dick, my interest in finding the "original" performance was to experience what it was like shooting a 45 Colt SAA in the last quarter of the 19th Century. I gave up competing back in '94 and just want to feel the power and appeal of the original when I drag my busted up self out to the range. (smile)
Dave
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My reference was to so many ot those BP shooters not knowing HOW or even IF to use water. IE water causes rust, right? Better to use some more modern wonder solvent, right?
Phoohy! Water is the best and only thing I use to clean up a BP fouled gun.
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I agree Sir Drydock,
Water does the work. I mix in 1 part Ballistol with 10 parts water because the residual mix leaves a protective coating of lubricant/rust preventive. But, you're absolutely correct about the water. Water is the solvent of choice for cleaning bp fouled guns. The Ballistol is there only for the reasons stated above.
DD-MDA
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My reference was to so many ot those BP shooters not knowing HOW or even IF to use water. IE water causes rust, right? Better to use some more modern wonder solvent, right?
Phoohy! Water is the best and only thing I use to clean up a BP fouled gun.
Thanks for clarifying - just the way you wrote that sentence it looked like you meant water was "old knowledge" and wrong -----I see new shooters spend a lot of cash on fancy packaged cleaners and on commercial lubes that stink like horse liniment - cash they would be better most times spent on powder and caps. Simple cleaners and simple lubes work. This is not rocket science ........well - it kinda is I guess but very old rocket science -
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I've always been attracted by the idea of shooting original performance ammo from guns of the black powder cartridge era and I put a lot of effort into accomplishing that years ago.
Research indicated the original load was with FFg but I couldn't get enough of that granulation in modern, solid head cases to duplicate the oft quoted original performance of 910 fps. What I came up with was a very compressed FFFg load of 36g behind a 255g RNFP. From a 7-1/2" 1st Gen Colt I got average velocities ranging from 907 fps to 914 fps, depending on the time of the year (outside temp).
Since this time around I'm starting from stretch with different guns, different bullets, even different brass (brand-new Starline cases) so before I re-invent the wheel (LOL) I thought I'd ask what folks here do for full power 45 Colt ammunition. I'd be grateful for any and all info you're willing to pass on.
Thanks in advance,
Dave
It appears that I'm about 16 months behind the original post. I did try the 40 grains of 2Fg. I weighed each charge, dropped it down a 30 inch drop tube, and compressed it with a compression die enough to seat a "Big Lube" 250 grain RFN bullet up to the crimp groove. I crimped in a crimp die. Now, before I got that far I opened the flash hole IAW Spence Wolfe's directions to 3/32nd inch and used a Winchester Large Magnum pistol primer. When I fired them in my EMF Dakota with a 7.5 inch barrel I turned the world upside down. The concussion was intense, fire an smoke belched from the muzzle and the recoil was a bit stiff. People backed away from me and the timer was standing behind me with his arm outstretched and his head was turned away from me. Man was that fun.
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Them ole' timers knew a thing or two about a combat cartridge, eh?
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Combat cartridge = power on the pill to the enemy person. Mostly we are combating steel reactive varmints and the dude with the timer is only watching for safety. The spotters are watching, thru the smoke, for misses. If it's a hit, it's a hit. If he thinks it's a miss, it's a hit. Only if he sees a miss is it a miss. The smoke and fog of war goes to the shooter.
Choose your mission and the venerable old 45 Colt will deliver what you ask. All the way from C45Spl to Schofield to 45 Colt, there's a load to fulfill your mission. For SASS matches I choose the Colt 1860 open tops with Kirst Konverter cylinders and ejectors. They point the best in my hands, stay on target and satisfy any smoke rule. C45Spl, standard WLP primers, 1.3 cc of Holy Black under a J/P 45-200 Big Lube® bullet does my work.
DD-MDA
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I shoot them now for historical recreation as close to the original specs as possible. Im wanting some .45 Schofeld cases and some 230 grain bullets as well to play with. (45 U.S. Army with the smaller Colt rims.)
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I've always been attracted by the idea of shooting original performance ammo from guns of the black powder cartridge era and I put a lot of effort into accomplishing that years ago.
Research indicated the original load was with FFg but I couldn't get enough of that granulation in modern, solid head cases to duplicate the oft quoted original performance of 910 fps. What I came up with was a very compressed FFFg load of 36g behind a 255g RNFP. From a 7-1/2" 1st Gen Colt I got average velocities ranging from 907 fps to 914 fps, depending on the time of the year (outside temp).
Since this time around I'm starting from stretch with different guns, different bullets, even different brass (brand-new Starline cases) so before I re-invent the wheel (LOL) I thought I'd ask what folks here do for full power 45 Colt ammunition. I'd be grateful for any and all info you're willing to pass on.
Thanks in advance,
Dave
Well, let me be amongst the few that tell you this. After reading Pat & Spence Wolfe's book on reloading the .45/70 for original Trapdoor Rifles and Carbines, I came across a chapter in that book about reloading the .45 Colt to Mil Spec. This was using 2Fg, a 40grain, weighed charge. Dropped down a 30 inch drop tube and compressed with a compression die enough to use a 250 - 255 grain cast lead bullet. He also opened up the flash hole to 3/32nds of an inch and lit the charge off with a Winchester Large Magnum Pistol Primer. Having done all that, you will not be disappointed with the muzzle blast or the recoil. When I used that load, people would draw back from the firing line when I got up there to shoot.
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Well, let me be amongst the few that tell you this. After reading Pat & Spence Wolfe's book on reloading the .45/70 for original Trapdoor Rifles and Carbines, I came across a chapter in that book about reloading the .45 Colt to Mil Spec. When I used that load, people would draw back from the firing line when I got up there to shoot.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D----LOL, Love it!!!! :)
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When I used that load, people would draw back from the firing line when I got up there to shoot.
LOL - Back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when I was shooting with the Los Vaqueros CAS club out of Tucson, I shot 35-36 grains of FFFg behind a 255g bullet. When I stepped up to shoot everyone backed away, including the timer. More often than not, shooting my 1883 7-1/2" Cavalry Colt, I would knock over a couple of the pistol targets (they weren't knockdowns) and the timers always asked me why I had to shoot such heavy loads. My answer was always the same: I was shooting original 1880s Colts and wanted to know what it was really like to shoot them back in the day. It was great fun and quite an experience.
Dave
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As an up-date to my original topic and question, I have chronographed some Black MZ loads and one is very close in performance, from my 7-1/2" USFA revolver, to the performance I got from 35g-36g of FFFg in my 1883 vintage 7-1/2" Colt 25 years ago. That BP load produced an average velocity of 907 fps with a 255g bullet. Last week I got 916 fps with a 256g bullet over 2.2cc of BlackMZ.
I now have a load with a modern substitute that delivers "full power 45 Colt" performance. I need to refine my loading technique to get the Extreme Spread down to a more acceptable level (I'm not consistant scooping powder) but improving that will keep me off the streets at night. (smiley face goes here)
Dave
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As an up-date to my original topic and question, I have chronographed some Black MZ loads and one is very close in performance, from my 7-1/2" USFA revolver, to the performance I got from 35g-36g of FFFg in my 1883 vintage 7-1/2" Colt 25 years ago. That BP load produced an average velocity of 907 fps with a 255g bullet. Last week I got 916 fps with a 256g bullet over 2.2cc of BlackMZ.
I now have a load with a modern substitute that delivers "full power 45 Colt" performance. I need to refine my loading technique to get the Extreme Spread down to a more acceptable level (I'm not consistant scooping powder) but improving that will keep me off the streets at night. (smiley face goes here)
Dave
If you can not be consistent, have you tried weighing your scooped powder charge and use a powder measure like the RCBS Uniflow Powder Measure and set the volume to throw the same weight of your powder? That is what I did. YMMV.
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Back when I was shooting CAS with BP loads I found a Pacific Pistol Powder Measure, with a brass hopper and brass rotors. I took one of the smaller rotors and drilled it out gradually until it dropped my preferred charge of FFFg. That measure got sold (or maybe given away, I don't remember which) when I got out of CAS and those old guns.
Now that I'm dabbling in it again I just found a vintage Pacific Pistol Powder measure with several rotors on eBay and bought it. Kind of like going home again. (big smiley face goes here)
Dave
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I opened the flash hole IAW Spence Wolfe's directions to 3/32nd inch and used a Winchester Large Magnum pistol primer.
What was your primer condition firing with an enlarged flash hole?
My 35 gr 2fg Goex 260 gr RNFP loads make my CCI 350 primers look quite flat where as a similar power level load with CFE-P smokeless leaves the primers still have rounded edges. Just my BP loads flatten primers.
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Since I'm still playing with this stuff I went back today and re-read this whole thread. I'm curious as to the rational behind opening up the flash-holein 45 Colt cases? It's not like black powder is hard to ignite. An I would think there would be some likelihood of the primer setting back and jamming up the revolver's cylinder.
In all the experimentation I did 25-30 years ago, and what I'm doing now I've had no problem with ignition of my BP or substitute charges. In fact I don't even bother with magnum primers. Regular ol' LPs seem to work just fine.
YMMV,
Dave
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I'm not real sure of the reasoning behind opening up the flash hole in a pistol cartridge. I have personally never experienced a problem setting off any charge in a stock 45 Colt case with nothing more than any standard primer. In the first couple of nano seconds (or less), the primer starts the ignition process (solid rocket fuel), the case pressure begins to build and sets the primer back then as the case pressure continues to build it (case pressure) sets the case back against the recoil shield and starts the bullet on it's merry way.
That is the sequence of events in any cartridge that I know of. The flash hole acts as a Venturi (rocket nozzle) to accelerate the flame travel into the fuel. Enlarging the flash hole would only act to slow the propagation of the priming charge into the fuel chamber (It really is Rocket Science you see) slowing the overall burn. We are only talking a Nano second or two but the physics are exactly the same.
With the charge as listed by Grapeshot, your going to get the "Earth Shattering KABOOM" (Quote Marvin the Martian) whether one enlarges the flash hole or not. Trust me, Grapeshot's load is going to get your attention clear into the next county. Fun to watch too (from a distance). Definitely need Eye and Ear protection ... and perhaps a launch site blockhouse ;D
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CM,
Your description of what happens when a round is fired is exactly what i have long understood the mechanics/physics to be. That's why I questioned the flash hole opening business. Didn't make sense based on my understanding of what's going on inside there.
Dave
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After a lot of experimentation with lube cookies, wads, etc - I've settled on the recipe of: 1 Starline .44 Colt case of FFg (I fill 'em in batches), 1 circle-fly fiber wad, and a 255g pill. Shoot great, mid-power, accurate and not too tough on my open-top.
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Opening the flash hole was designed to duplicate the cross sectional area of the flash holes in original Frankford arsenal rifle ammunition, both boxer and Bennet primed cases. These in turn were designed by the arsenal to give optimum consistant ignition in HEAVILY compressed military loadings, the loadings that Spencer Wolf was trying to duplicate. The arsenal discovered with these loads that the greater cross section lowered standard deviations, giving better accuracy at extended ranges.
Wolf himself wrote that this was not needed in lighter compression loadings, 3f loadings, or smokeless loadings.
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Drydock,
As always your information is both interesting and appreciated. Thanks!
Dave
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I once used a 45 Colt load of around 35gr. FFFg powder with a lube pill and a fiber wad. I had to REALLY compress the load.
It shot badly. Cases began to stick.
Later I learned while cleaning that the cases stuck due to the cylinder notches being bulged upwards. The same gun with a new cylinder withstood a double charge of W231 powder. The shot seemed to scream and stung my bother-in-laws hand. Warning...do not let bother-in-law load ammo.
The gun was a Uberti 1873 type SSA Cattleman.
I bought a new cylinder and never did the overly compressed thing again. After reading some of William Wellington Greener book and read about detonation I am careful about loading with over compression. It can be dangerous. Detonation has ruptured revolvers cylinders and Sharps rifles barrels and actions. Detonation is a strange thing. Powder charges too small can cause them and overly compressed blackpowder loads can too. Sorta like the powder compressed into fine powder burns at the rear and further compresses the powder in front and detonates it and the bullet acts like a bore obstruction at that point. That's how I remember it to be basically. There's shock waves bouncing back and forth also. William Wellington Greener and his buddy Alexander Henry researched about blackpowder that seemed way beyond their times. Experts they were.
OK tear my post to pieces. That's alright. Maybe some will re-think the overly compressed load thing though. The shooter and by-standers can be harmed by it when guns rupture.
I still have the Cattleman cylinder with the bulged up cylinder notches. A reminder.
I use charges about 33gr. FFg in my 45 Colts now when I use the Black powder.
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I have shot up to 36-37 grains of 2F Swiss and OE in my Ruger New Vaqero with both 255 and 200 grain pills. Cases extract easily. But this seems like an awful lot of recoil and the accuracy results weren't as nearly good as with much lighter charges. This amount of powder doesn't leave room in the cast for a lube cookie either (lube cookies used for economic reasons - still using smokeless bullets, pan lubed with SPG. I'll switch to Big Lubes when my current stockpile is exhausted..)
I wouldn't run this stiff a cartridge through an open top gun, though. No reason for it.
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I'm shooting up to 40 grains FFFG Olde Eynsforde withy 250 Big Lube out of my Uberti Cimarron and Pietta (Heritage Big Boy) with easy extractions. About 3/32 to 1/8 compression.
Lively loads but accurate and no problems in last 6 years.
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The PRS Big Lube®LLC bullets are capable of incredible accuracy. That, and the ability to shoot an entire match with no need to clean in order to maintain accuracy or function. All that lube carried by the huge Big Lube® grove keeps the barrel wet to the muzzle with an nice lube star on the muzzle. The wet barrel makes for easy clean up at day's end.
DD-MDA
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What was your primer condition firing with an enlarged flash hole?
My 35 gr 2fg Goex 260 gr RNFP loads make my CCI 350 primers look quite flat where as a similar power level load with CFE-P smokeless leaves the primers still have rounded edges. Just my BP loads flatten primers.
My primers were flat. That did not surprise me any. The larger flash hole was to allow the flame push through the compressed load of black powder for a complete ignition.
Sorry it took me so long to answer this. I had a computer glitch that would not let me back on the forum.
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The larger flash hole was to allow the flame push through the compressed load of black powder for a complete ignition.
Back in the early 1990s I found a box of NOS balloon head cases and loaded 40g FFg behind a 255g 20-1 alloy bullet. That load was very compressed (at least 3/8") and with a standard flash hole opening and standard primers I can attest to it's complete ignition. Results were 914 fps from a 7.5" 1st Generation Colt SAA.
My research into the 45 Colt told me that load reportedly produced 910 fps so I considered my results spot on.
Dave
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If you want a .45 caliber big boomer, get away from a 140+ year old design and just spend the buck skins to get a modern revolver in .454 Casull and be done with it.
Or keep it up and have a revolver do a violent disassembly at arms length. Are we having fun now?
Gee whiz guys use a little common sense will you? Don't enter a Ford model T in the Indy 500.
Yr' Puzzled Obt' Svt'
Bunk
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They just want to play Elmer Keith! I believe he did disassemble some revolvers trying to turn the .44spl into a magnum. Qh wait, as you said, the .45 Colt has already been magnumized, Dick Casull's .454. 454 full power black powder loads might be pretty cool!
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They just want to play Elmer Keith! I believe he did disassemble some revolvers trying to turn the .44spl into a magnum. Qh wait, as you said, the .45 Colt has already been magnumized, Dick Casull's .454. 454 full power black powder loads might be pretty cool!
Elmer used a 350 grain .457 .45-70 bullet on top of a compressed charge of 3Fg. He blew up a pre 1900 Colt SAA. We are talking about using new Uberti or Pietta SAA's made with modern, stronger steels. We are looking for what a 40 grain charge of 2FG feels like using information from a vetted source. I have taken .454 Casull Brass and trimmed them back to .45 Colt length and loaded them up with 40 Grains of 2Fg, compressed and a 250 grain Big Lube Bullet and touched off with a small rifle primer. Same results, big BOOM, chest pounding concussion, with a fireball and smoke.
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I hadn't read before that Mr. Keith used a .457 bullet! He apparently did wonder if the oversize bullets had something to do with the failure. From what I have read the powder was "semi-smokeless" equivalent to 2400. Forgotten weapons has a cool video with Ian inspecting "one" of the SAA cylinders that failed. I don't understand what trimming a Casull case down to .45 Colt length proves? All you did was create a .45 case with less capacity because of the thicker head, so even more compression trying to stuff 40 grains in a modern case. No argument from me that a case full of B.P. is the historical, FUN way to experience the .45 Colt SAA. Now I'm inspired to go fill up some 500 S&W cases with The Holy Black!
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If you want a .45 caliber big boomer, get away from a 140+ year old design and just spend the buck skins to get a modern revolver in .454 Casull and be done with it.
Or keep it up and have a revolver do a violent disassembly at arms length. Are we having fun now?
Gee whiz guys use a little common sense will you? Don't enter a Ford model T in the Indy 500.
Yr' Puzzled Obt' Svt'
Bunk
I believe you're puzzled because you missed the point of the exercise. We're not talking about a ".45 caliber big boomer", but rather finding out what shooting the SAA (or a copy) was like if you could go back to the black powder cartridge era and by a box of factory ammunition loaded with either 40g of FFg or 35g of FFFg behind a soft alloy, 255g RNFP. I've done it with both loads (hand loads of course) and it is both entertaining, educational, and quite an experience.
Dave
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that is the king of loads I started out with in the now so very long ago. A Lyman molsd, an Ideal hand tool a can of Du Pont, and a gen 1 single action. When I as twenty it was fun. Now 60+ years later it is not fun and I will leave it to you young guys to shoot the big boomers. So have fun guys and don't mind me. I am just a grouchy old scudder that likes to start conversations.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
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Good Morning Ira Scott,
The question was raised about a black powder load in a .454 Casull and by comparing the case sizes my opinion there would be very little difference. So, I did a somewhat unscientific test to see what could happen.
Using 4 cartridge cases from my brass pile which were a .454 Casull, a Starline .45 Colt, a Western .45 Colt old style button head case and a Peters old style button head case and measured the amount of GOEX FFFg black powder they would hold full to the case mouth.
The results as follows the .454 Casull 46.45 grains, the 45 Colt Starline 39.95 grains, the .45 Colt Western 43.23 grains and the Peters .45 Colt 42.13 grains.
It would be, most likely, a little more boom for the .454, but not all that much. In fact, the old Western case holds more the Starline by a little. These were not compressed loads, just poured into the case until full, then struck level to the case mouth. The average of four was all I did because the numbers did not change by more that one or two tenths.
The .454 is a very high pressure load and the case is just a little longer for safety sake much like the case difference between .38 Special and the .357 Magnum and others.
Respectfully submitted,
Bunk
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Mr. Bunk Sir, I did some unscientific measurements myself. A 500 S&W case will hold approximately 63.5 grains of FFFG poured and struck level, and about 54 grains with a 1/8" of compression and room to seat a 205 grain HB 50 caliber Minie on top of it. Doesn't look like 60 grains will fit for the full "Walker Experience", but could be quite entertaining! (if you like that sort of thing)
I apologize if this is too far off topic
Respectfully, Broken Nose (Ira) Scotty
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Geez Louise Ira,
That would be a HAND FULL like shooting the .50-70 Government cartridge in a hand gun.
For people that like the big boomers, they should LOVE this one, but for me, like the well known gun plumber, I am a recoil wimp. An 80 grain ball and 15 grains of FFFg is more my style.
Thanks for the info, though and let me know if you try it and if you survive. it should be verrrry interesting.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
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I am a card carrying, registered, confirmed, baptized, sworn ...... Recoil Wimp. I see no advantage with heavy recoiling, earth shaking, Heavens Rendering handguns. Except: Some Lustrum ago, I had an itch. I wanted to drop an Elk with a Handgun. So .... I built a special duplex load for 45 Colt in my Ruger Blackhawk with 4 3/4 inch barrel. Using a friends Chrono (I've never owned a chrono), we confirmed 1580 FPS with a 265Gr cast Keith type semi-wadcutter. That load in that gun was NOT fun to shoot. Fired no more than needed to match POA/POI at 70 yards. NOT fun to shoot. (Yes .... I did drop an Elk with it)
Surprisingly enough, being the bonafide Recoil Wimp that I am, I think (operatic word "think") I'd really like to own a conversion in 45 Brimstone. I just don't know WHY?? But .. I have been thinking about it ..............
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If I get around to trying it, I will shoot the "500 Brimstone" in my S&W 8.25" barrel X frame. It weighs within ounces, the same as my Walker replica at about 4.5 lbs. At least the damn loading lever won't fall down with every shot!
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All my research has pointed to these cartridges being loaded with what we now would consider 3f powder. I have broke down several original Frankford Arsenal loadings, and all had the finer granulation.
F's are a modern designation. Both the .45-70 and the Colt round were loaded with "Rifle" grade powder, which appears to be what we consider a "3"f granulation. "Musket" grade seems to correspond to "2" f, with "Pistol" grade being close to 4f as seen in original Percussion "Skin" cartridges. I believe this to be one reason velocity's seem lower with "Modern" powder, because we are consistently using the wrong granulation.
My Trapdoor 45-70s, loaded with 3f, will shoot to the sights, with 2f loads shooting high.
From Winchester's August 1895 catalog
For powder to be used in rifle cartridges containing more than 40 grains, we recommend the following brands and sizes of grains as giving the best results:---
American Powder Mills' "Rifle Cartridge, No. 3"
Hazard Powder Company's "Kentucky Rifle F.G."
E.I. DuPont. de Nemours & Co.'s "Dupont Rifles F.G."
Laflin $ Rand Powder Co.'s "Orange Rifle Extra, F.G."
For the 32, 38, and 44 WCF rifles and ALL center-fire pistol cartridges:
American Powder Mills' "Rifle Cartridge, No. 4"
Hazard Powder Company's "Kentucky Rifle F.F.G."
E. I. DuPont. de Nemours & Co.'s "Dupont Rifles F.F.G."
Laflin $ Rand Powder Co.'s "Orange Rifle Extra, F.F.G."
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45 Colt Chronograph Results for Rifle vs Revolver with Smokeless vs GOEX 2 fg & Old Eynsford Black Powder
The Cartridge Recipe
Brass: Starline 45 Colt at 1.270?.
Note - 95% of all my Starline brass was shorter than the ?trim to length ? of 1.275? right out of the bag!
Primer: CCI 350 this is a magnum strength primer, used to get a more complete powder burn with both powder types.
Bullet: 264 grain RNFP cast with Rotometals 20:1 lead:tin alloy from a SAECO #955 mold, sized .452? and lubed with homemade Emmerts Improved.
Powder: Hodgdon?s CFE-Pistol 9.3 grains weight checked on 2 RCBS Chargemaster 1500?s + an RCBS 1010.
May 16, 2019. Shooting Chrony set up ~10 feet in front of the muzzle. Temperature ~17*C
The Firearms
Rifle: 2018 Shot Show Special a Miroku built Winchester 1873 Deluxe Sporting Rifle in 45 Colt, 24? barrel.
Revolver: One from a pair of Ruger SASS Edition in 45 Colt with 5.5? barrel.
Chronograph Results for Hodgdon?s CFE-Pistol smokeless powder in fps
9.3 grains of Hodgdon?s CFE-Pistol smokeless powder. The smokeless test was fired first.
Rifle average of 3 averages is: 1244.6 fps.
Revolver avg. of 2 averages is: 1007.5 fps.
With CFE-Pistol the rifle is 237.1 fps faster than the revolver.
This was a surprise as I was expecting the difference to be only in the 140 to 200 fps range.
Chronograph Results for Black Powder in fps
The only change made to the cartridge recipe was to substitute 34.9 grains of GOEX 2fg Black Powder weight checked on 2 RCBS Chargemaster 1500?s + an RCBS 1010.
Rifle: low 1037, high 1118, Avg. 1092, E.S. 80.8, S.D. 22.15
Revolver: low 740.5, high 793.6, Avg. 767.8, E.S. 53.12, S.D. 15.16
low 739.7, high 785.7, Avg. 761.3, E.S. 45.96, S.D. 15.81
With BP the rifle is 327.45 fps faster than the revolvers avg. of the averages.
This was a surprise as I was expecting the difference to be in the 140 to 200 range.
3 fg Old Eynsford BP 35 grains Results
15 August 2019, temperature - a hot day ~ 27* C
Rifle M73: 3 fg Old E low 1203, high 1241, Avg. 1229, E.S. 37.29, S.D. 12.44
3 fg Old E low 1214, high 1246, Avg. 1232, E.S. 32.40, S.D. 9.79
Revolver: #39 3 fg Old E low 887.1, high 945.9, Avg. 922.2, E.S. 64.15, S.D. 22.24
3 fg Old E low 880.1, high 1003, Avg. 922.7, E.S. 123.6, S.D. 32.87
Revolver: #40 3 fg Old E low 925.1, high 951.8 , Avg. 939.5, E.S. 26.77, S.D. 9.0
3 fg Old E low 890.6, high 953.5 , Avg. 915.0 , E.S. 62.86, S.D. 18.78
In my rifles 24? barrel 35 grs of 3 fg Old Eynsford produced 138 fps more than 34.9 grs of 2 fg GOEX.
In my revolvers 5.5? barrel 35 grs. 3 fg Old Eynsford produced 160 fps more than 34.9 grs. of 2 fg GOEX.
Higher quality powder in the finer 3 fg granulation does mak quit a difference in muzzle velocity.
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Accuracy?
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It makes little difference in how FAST it goes.
What is important is WHERE it goes.
I would rather have a medium velocity round that hits where I aim every time than one that moves at "warp nine Scotty".
Fast is fine accuracy is final.
Bunk
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I have a Uberti 1875 Remington revolver that I bought new about 1977. For whate3ver reason, I found it to be wonderfully accurate - much better than any of the other revolvers that I own. It likes 35 gr. FFFg GOEX which is compressed about 1/8" by a Lyman 452424 260 gr. bullet. So this revolver likes the hottest black powder load it will take, and a heavy bullet. Accuracy is superb and this pistol and load has won me many awards, locally, provincially and nationally.