Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: smoke on November 08, 2015, 08:31:44 PM
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What did the different Canadian units where during the Boer wars/serving in SA? Was it the standard British KD uniform of that era or did they have their own? Infantry not Cavalry, I would guess that cav. had uniforms specific to their needs?
Thanks!
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Rattlesnake Jack can elucidate. With pictures, I`m sure
I understand that Canada, finding a shortage of British Khaki uniforms, replicated same in canvas. I suspect that re-supply was with British issue items. Rifles were the long Lee and revolvers were initially the 1878 Colt New Service left over from the Riel Rebellion, but soon replaced with the new Colt model in .45 Colt. Horses were taken with them, at least the Strathcona`s did, but remounts were sourced locally. The Strath`s took the same western saddle patterns that the NWMP used. All contingents after the first (Infantry -The Royal Canadian Regiment) adopted the western hat popularized by the Mounties (as purchased at Ft. Benton unofficially) Three batteries of Artillery served in South Africa, and are currently perpetuated with the title of `Horse Artillery` in our regular force. Most of the other contingents adopted the title Canadian Mounted Rifles and lasted in name up through WW I.
Canada did not send "cavalry" as what was needed in South Africa was "mounted rifles". Afterwards these units perpetuated themselves as cavalry, a natural morphing to a more glorious image.
The Royal Canadian Dragoons , and Lord Strathcona's Horse are units that began in the Boer War as mounted rifles, served in WW I as cavalry, and as armoured units in WW II and are now armoured regiments in Canada's regular army. Our new Minister of Defence, Harjit Sajjan, served in Bosnia with the Straths, in the same squadron as my son. 25 or so years earlier I was attached to the Strath`s for service in Cyprus where I met & married his Mom.
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Sir Charles:
Interesting info. One small mistake that I saw...the 1878 Colt is not a New Service.
I enjoy your posts.
T-Joe
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Sir CdM-B...Wow that is a great post!! I appreciate the history lesson! Great family history there also. What is the "western hat" The Montana peak?
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Sir Charles:
Interesting info. One small mistake that I saw...the 1878 Colt is not a New Service.
I enjoy your posts.
T-Joe
I recall a sales poster describing the 1878 as a New Service model. However I just went to my copy of CANADIAN MILITARY HANDGUNS by Clive Law, and find them described as "Colt Double Action Army Revolver, Model 1878"
The sales poster I recall described two versions of the Colt 1878 double action revolver. "The New Frontier" in .44-40 and the "New Service" in .45 Colt. Then about 1898 Colt brought out the swing-out cylinder model which was known as a New Service. The Canadian Army bought the latter for all but the first contingent to South Africa, in .455. I have a sample of both, the 1878 was an 1885 purchase by Canada for the Riel Rebellion but generally not employed in battle until the Boer War, and a 1915 made private purchase Colt New Service in .455. The Mounties used the CNS in both .45 Colt and .455, until replaced by the S&W model 10 in 1954.
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Goldurn it! I let a long post drop outta sight!
The western hat was a Montana peak hat. Originally private purchase in Montana by individual mounties for patrol use, (Or small group purchases) then latter becoming official.
Boots were another innovation from those times. The Popular RCMP boot, called a Strathcona boot, was first tried in 1898 for the Yukon Field Force, a joint operation between the NWMP and regular army, mostly infantry (RCR). It looks like a riding boot modified with lacing inserted at the ankle to make it more useful for dismounted use. The Lord Strathcona's Horse own the pattern as regimental property.
Members who volunteered for the Boer War, mostly in the Strath's, introduced both hat & boots to the rest of the Empire. The official footwear for mounted rifles at the time was ankle boots and long puttees. Rattlesnake Jack wears leather gaiters over ankle boots but I don't know if that had any official status.
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In the US the M1878 was known as either the "Double Action Frontier" or the "Double Action Army". Perhaps "New Frontier" or "New Service" were Nomenclature used north of the Border.
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In the US the M1878 was known as either the "Double Action Frontier" or the "Double Action Army". Perhaps "New Frontier" or "New Service" were Nomenclature used north of the Border.
Maybe a seniors moment kicked in, but I seem to remember an image of a sales brochure that used that term. When I go to the usual references, I see it your way.
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I believe that our new Minister of Defence served with the BCD, the "Dirty Dukes".
Re: the Mounties lace up boots ..... they gave rise to the expression - "... more tongue than a Mounties boot ...", describing someone who should do more listening and less talking.
"Rattlesnake Jack" has more than once posted material on the Canadian presence n the Boer War. He is a wealth of such historical data that you can take to the bank.
Southern Alberta was once cattle land, long since gone agricultural. As a native Calgarian, this has always puzzled me. I learned why from a coffee table book on the history of the region around Rosebud, Alberta.
When the Boer War broke out, a lot of ex-pat "remittance men" answered to the colours. Many never came back. The same thing happened in the Wallachin area west of Kamloops, BC, causing that colony to die out. Many more responded with the outbreak of WWI and even fewer returned.
Their holdings hit the auction block, many of them bought up by Americans who took advantage of cheap land. They saw the potential for wheat crops and a new era began. Currently, a lot of the land around Rosebud and other rural communities is under canola. The rolling hills look like a yellow ocean at times.
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Just confirmed it ....
Our new Minister of National Defence, Harjit Sajjan is a past CO of the British Columbia Dragoons. He served one tour in Bosnia and three in Afghanistan where he was considered a most valuable intelligence asset. It I said that he understood the tribal aspects of the local people very well and interacted with them at a high level.
It isn't the first time we've had a veteran serve as Defence Minister, but none of them has been much of a success insofar as benefitting the military or veterans. Time will tell if the new kid in Centre Block will be any different.
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PJ, Sir Black et al....thanks for the info. I appreciate the info. Hopefully Rattlesnake Jack will show up here give his input.
I wised up and used the search function. I did not even think about that before I posted. Lots of good info but a few questions.
1. I see lots of Khaki but also some soldiers appear to be wearing wool SD? Not quite he 1902 pattern but close. Was there a Khaki/drab wool uniform before 1902?
2. Were any carbines issued? I see plenty of Long Lees but no carbines in the photos. A Long Lee is tough to come by....I have never seen one for sale but has seen a couple of carbines.
3. Hats...I see the Montana peek style but also some that appear to be more like the Aussie slouch hat. Was it a case of getting what was avialable or did they re-shape the hats?
Thanks!
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Sajjan was a "Duke" (BCR), but volunteered for active service in Bosnia. He served as a Troop Commander in the Straths. My son was one of the other troop commanders and was Harjit's room mate.
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/ol-lo/vol-tom-3/par1/arm-bli/BCR-eng.asp
The only Lee-Enfield carbines that Canada used in South Africa were the 12 assigned to each of the 3 field artillery batteries.
Long Lees were very well used in service and not many survive, but they can be found. Mine is a "re-pop", restored to issue configuration with reproduction parts.
Part of my lost post was a querie. Australia, with its own frontier history, may have arrived in South Africa with its own tradition of felt hats. I am not sure how that interplayed with the Montana peak hat of the Canadian contingents. I have seen photos of hats worn both ways.
Here is the War Museum website entry for Canada's contribution to the Boer War;
http://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/exhibitions/boer/canadianarmy_e.shtml
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I haven't made a posting on Armistice Day, so here is a Boer war related tidbit. John McCrae, the author of IN FLANDERS FIELDS, served in South Africa as a Lieutenant in the Canadian Field Artillery. He was already an M.D. but served in a line position. In WW I he served as an M.O.
http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/mccrae_john_14E.html
http://www.cbc.ca/history/EPISCONTENTSE1EP11CH2PA3LE.html
And; Possibly a picture of Lt. McCrae? http://angloboerwarmuseum.com/Boer70m_hero14_mccrae.html
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McCrae's requiem is sometimes thought as a plea for peace. In fact, it is a call to carry the fight to the enemy so that all the sacrifice was not in vain.
When freedom is no longer worth fighting for, then we have lost it, and those buried under the crosses amid the poppies of Flanders Fields will not rest.
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Sir Charles....thanks for that info. I have been doing a lot of reading/research on Canadians in WW1 and now the Boer war. Very interesting stuff.
PJ....excellent point. Something many do not understand.
Since the Great War has been mentioned, I will do a bit of a thread hijack.
My great uncle, John Percival Gourlay 80th battalion CEF. The 80th was disbanded and survivors reassigned to other 4th Can. Div units although what documents I have found indicate that he was re-assigned to the 42nd battalion CEF.
(http://members.shaw.ca/petergou/images/percygourlay.jpg)
My other great uncle who served overseas...no picture. Sgt. George Russell Gourlay. 73rd CEF, Royal Highland Regiment. He was assigned to the 12th Canadian MG company. He was wounded at the Battle of Vimy Ridge, losing his left leg.
Uncle George returned to Canada and settled down. Uncle Percy returned ot Canada a different man. He later went west and was never heard from again.
Thank you for your service uncles.
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Apologies for my late arrival on the scene ....
Hopefully I can offer answers to some of smoke's questions ....
Use of khaki field uniforms by the British originated with the Indian Army (maintained as a separate entity after Britain took over direct administration of India from the Honourable East India Company following the 1857 Mutiny.) As you likely know, the very word "khaki" is derived from a Hindustani (Urdu) word meaning "soil coloured" or "dust coloured", from a Persian word for "soil/dust". British Army regiments stationed in India were quick to adopt it as practical campaign clothing for hot/tropical areas, and its use spread ... particularly for service in Africa - such as the conflicts in Egypt and the Sudan in the 1880s and 1890s.
The first standard pattern khaki uniform for the British Army (i.e. a formally adopted pattern for universal issue ... at least where khaki was deemed appropriate) was the Pattern 1896 khaki drill (KD) tunic and trousers. Note: "drill" in this case does not refer to "drilling" activity, but to a type of fabric - i.e. "a stout durable cotton fabric with strong bias (diagonal) in the weave".
Canada's first troop contingent to South Africa was a specially-raised volunteer unit designated as the 2nd (Special Service) Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment of Infantry, consisting of eight 125-man companies. The war broke out on October 11th, 1899, and recruiting for this Battalion (primarily within the ranks of the existing Permanent and Active Militia, of course) began on October 14th. The unit was rapidly filled, equipped and embarked for South Africa, arriving on November 29th .... seemingly a lot quicker than things might go in today's world, considerring that they were month at sea!
They were kitted out in cotton khaki service uniforms produced in Canada but, since proper khaki drill cloth was not available, they were actually made of a canvas-like material dyed to a khaki colour. They proved to be stiff and uncomfortable (i.e. chafing) compared to proper khaki drill, and soon bleached out to near-white in the harsh summer sun of South Africa, and were soon replaced with uniforms made of proper khaki drill.
Men of the first contingent immediately following their landing in South Africa:
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/RCR03.jpg)
Note that, instead of the British Pattern 1888 Slade-Wallace Equipment, their leather equipment is the uniquely Canadian Pattern 1899 Oliver Equipment, most easily distinguishable by the single large, centrally-located ammunition pouch.
Of course, October-March is the summer in South Africa, so cotton drill uniforms were ideal, and the practicality of drab uniforms for modern warfare, particularly against more sophisticated enemies armed with accurate rifles, had become obvious by this time. However, it also became evident that cotton clothing would be unsuitable for campaigning in cooler and/or wetter conditions such as would soon occur in the South African winter. Accordingly, the first standard pattern of khaki serge (i.e. wool) uniform was adopted by the British: the Pattern 1899 jacket and trousers. Unlike the P'96 KD tunic (which had flap-covered breast pockets, but no lower pockets), the P'99 serge tunic for some reason had flap-covered skirt pockets, but no breast pockets! Considering that infantry equipments of the day consisted primarily of largish pouches on waistbelts (undoubtedly why the P'96 tunic had breast pockets but no skirt pockets) the lack of breast pockets on the serge tunic soon became a source of annoyance for British troops, and a number of examples (and photographs) exist of such tunics modified by the addition of breast pockets. The Pattern 1902 tunic you refer to had breast pockets, of course.
That said, there seem to be a lot of "variants" (in terms of exact cut, colour, etc.) of such uniforms. Rather than get into all that here, check out this thread on the Victorian Wars Forum, which started as a presentation by one of the collector-members of examples of British Officer's khaki dress in the 1896-1902 period, but then developed into a discussion of khaki drill and serge uniforms, generally - http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6669&start=15 (http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6669&start=15)
Interestingly, there seems to be considerable evidence that Canada may have been first to adopt a pattern of khaki wool serge tunic with both breast and skirt pockets, worn (perhaps trialled?) during the Boer War. Various photographs exist of Canadian Boer War soldiers wearing such a tunic, evidently pre-dating adoption of both the P'1902 uniform by the British and the somewhat different Canadian Pattern 1903 khaki serge uniform. Here is a thread started by me on the Victorian Wars Forum discussing this, with plenty of photos - http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7768&start=15 (http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7768&start=15)
Here is just one of the photos from that thread, showing a member of one of the Mounted Rifles units Canada subsequently sent .... at the specific request of the British, who had learned that foot infantry were at a distinct disadvantage in this campaign -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/boerwar_detail.jpg)
.... and a photograph of a 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles patrol in South Africa, wearing serge uniforms. (Although it is not really possible to ascertain if it is the same uniform as shown above, the tunics clearly do have breast pockets, which the British P'1899 serge uniform lacked.) -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/CMR_zpsjvpfvp33.jpg)
I have to go do some "grandparenting" .... Hopefully I can address some of the other issues raised in this thread, later ....
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Sir Charles....thanks for that info. I have been doing a lot of reading/research on Canadians in WW1 and now the Boer war. Very interesting stuff.
PJ....excellent point. Something many do not understand.
Since the Great War has been mentioned, I will do a bit of a thread hijack.
My great uncle, John Percival Gourlay 80th battalion CEF. The 80th was disbanded and survivors reassigned to other 4th Can. Div units although what documents I have found indicate that he was re-assigned to the 42nd battalion CEF.
(http://members.shaw.ca/petergou/images/percygourlay.jpg)
My other great uncle who served overseas...no picture. Sgt. George Russell Gourlay. 73rd CEF, Royal Highland Regiment. He was assigned to the 12th Canadian MG company. He was wounded at the Battle of Vimy Ridge, losing his left leg.
Uncle George returned to Canada and settled down. Uncle Percy returned ot Canada a different man. He later went west and was never heard from again.
Thank you for your service uncles.
Thanks for this post. The hat badge seems to be an artillery badge, as well the white lanyard was part of artillery dress. The bandoleer seems to have been the one used before the SmLE was adopted in 1903. Could it be a studio prop? Perhaps Jack can tell us when the forage cap was adopted?
Thank you for chiming in Rattlesnake Jack. Your contributions here are quite valuable.
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Smoke: I have located copies of the "Attestation Paper" for both of your uncles, pursuant to which each of them volunteered for service with the Canadian Expeditionary Force. If you don't have these, give me your e-mail address via PM and I can send you copies. (I can also give you information for ordering copies of each man's complete personnel file, covering his CEF service, from attestation to discharge, from Library and Archives Canada.)
Here is the top section of John Percival's attestation form -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/WWI/Attestation_GourlayJP_1_detail_zpsyjhjnlry.gif)
Although it would be necessary to review his full CEF file to be sure, it appears clear from the various notations that he did indeed volunteer for service in the 80th Battalion, but that he was first transferred to an Artillery unit - 32nd Depot Battery, CEF - (handwritten notation at top) before going to the 42nd Battalion (i.e. the typewritten notation above the 80th Battalion stamp.) His apparent ultimate service in the 42nd Battalion is of interest to me, since the Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada - which actually contributed three CEF Battalions for overseas service (the 13th, 42nd and 73rd) - is the direct successor of one of the Victorian-era units I portray - i.e. the 5th Battalion (later Regiment), Royal Scots of Canada.
Anyway, it would seem evident that the photograph you have posted was taken when he was in this Artillery unit, presumably when still in Canada. That would certainly explain the cap badge and might well explain the bandolier, which appears to be a Pattern 1889 bandolier (adopted for the "Long Lee" rifles, which were not "charger loaded" like the SMLE, and thus had an individual loop for each cartridge) either because troops in Canada were being issued older/obsolete equipment so the "new" stuff could go to the troops overseas or perhaps because artillery units (at least in Canada) may even have been issued with old "Long" Lee-Enfield rifles. Or, it could even be just a "photographers prop" as Sir Charles suggests ...... (Mind you, Sir Charles, don't forget that the Canadian military rifle at the time, and until mid-1916, was actually the Ross, not the SMLE ....)
By the way, the service dress cap of the pattern he is wearing was first adopted in 1904 .... but it appears that your uncle enlisted in the 80th Bttn. on September 25, 1915, and his Attestation indicates that he had no prior service in the Militia, so presumably this photo would have been taken in late 1915 or early 1916.
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Getting back to the Boer War, the peaked, broad-brimmed felt hat worn by the Canadian Mounted Rifles (and Strathcona's Horse - who did not become "Lord Strathcona's Horse" until 1911) became the iconic headgear for Canadian troops in South Africa.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/na-5107-122.jpg)
Colonel (as he then was) Robert Baden-Powell was particularly enamored of this style of felt hat, and adopted it for the South African Constabulary he organized, as well as for the Boy Scouts he founded after the Boer War. Sketch drawings by Baden-Powell meant to illustrate the origins of the original British Boy Scoutsnuniform, from "Scouting for Boys" -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/sac1900.jpg) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/uniform.gif)
Even the Canadian foot infantry began wearing more practical felt hats, when they could acquire them. This is a group of buglers of the 2nd Battalion, Royal Regiment of Canadian Infantry - note that their hats have the pinched peak standard to the Canadian headgear, although they have turned up one side of the brim presumably for a more "rakish" look .... which likely also explains why four of them have their Model 1878 Colt revolvers thrust into their waistbelts in such swashbuckling fashion, rather than properly holstered .... ;) -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/RCR09.jpg)
Note that the infantrymen and Mounted Rifles in the various period photos I've posted are all armed with "Long Lee" rifles. Canada had only very recently switched from the old .577 Snider-Enfield as its standard-issue military rifle, in 1896/97 when 40,000 of the latest Magazine Lee-Enfield rifles were acquired. In fact, with the exception of the very few carbines issued to the small artillery contingent, Canada's troops in South Africa were the only portion of the British empire forces to be entirely equipped with the state-of-the-art Magazine Lee-Enfield rifle. The British Army, and contingents from other parts of the Empire, still had a lot of the earlier Magazine Lee-Metford (with its older, less satisfactory rifling pattern) or even single-shot Martini-Metford or Martini-Enfield rifles and carbines.
As Sir Charles indicated, the standard footwear of Canadian Mounted Rifles was ankle boots coupled with long puttees - pretty much the same as foot infantry wore at that time - as evident in most of the images I have posted.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/CMR_2_zpsbaapwprq.jpg) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/RCR13-1.jpg)
The leather leggings/gaiters mentioned are "Stohwasser gaiters", first patented in the UK about 1896. They were worn by officers (and other mounted personnel when they could get them.) The third and fifth men (from the left) in the first photo in this post are wearing them, and here are a couple more photos showing them a bit more clearly -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/na-5107-832.jpg) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/na-5107-1172.jpg)
I have both puttees and Stohwasser leggings. I tend to wear the puttees primarily when doing a regular infantry impression and prefer the Stohwasser gaiters when doing a mounted impression -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/GAF/2013%20Muster/33ee127c-d527-4855-a1c8-97cdb6f861fb_zpsizytwakj.jpg) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/GAF/2011%20Muster/87128b95-0e65-42dc-8c41-2c02139d6f38_zpslmpmz7qr.jpg)
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RsJ....thanks for showing! That is some great info and as always great photos!! I knew some of the background on Khaki and it's origins but not all. So the Boer War uniform is the Pattern 1896 KD uniform. Good to know. Do you use one of WPG's repros? The look pretty good and Jerry Lee seems to have a good rep.
So the Serge Service Dress was a result of the conflict in SA? Interesting but I suppose the Empire was not fighting any where cold enough for wool since the Red Jacket was deemed obsolete. I agree that it is strange that they went to a skirt pocket on the P99, it makes so much sense NOT to have waist/hip pockets on a field tunic but it took the US over 100 to get around to that idea. I never understood why our cammies had pockets....they were worthless when wearing field gear. Thanks for those links, I am registered over on the Victorian War Forum so I will be reading through them.
The Canadian Tunic that you posted sure does look an awful lot like the Canadian WW1 tunic. Is it possible that the Canadian tunic started out as simply a serge P'96 that later got hip pockets because the British had them? Or maybe they were Brit issue that the Canadians added breast pockets because they were more practical?
Every time I see pics of Canadian troops I think "your hats are crooked...square them away!" ;D Really cool to see how the troops in the field personalized their head gear.
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Sir Charles, thanks for that info on the pic. I had no idea that he had a connection to an artillery unit. I have no info on the picture if it was pre deployment or upon his return. It is on our family genealogy site.
RsJ, I have seen that paperwork for both uncles but that is all I have seen. I would appreciate any help on getting ahold of their compete service records. Thanks for interpreting the info on it. I do know that the 80th CIB was part of the Canadian 4th infantry div. but was disbanded and the men used as replacements for other units in the 4th CID. What the heck are Attestation Papers? They seem to occur at enlistment so would that mean he was transferred to the 42nd CIB before he went overseas? I suspect that he saw action in France. From what my mom tells me and can remember( she is 85) the war changed him.
As you know, both uncles served in the Highland Battalions during the war so I'm gonna hijack my own thread a bit. During WW1 would the 42 and the 73rd have worn? Canadian 03 tunic? Kilt? If they wore the Kilt, would they have worn the P1902 SD "Scottish" cut away tunic? I have ordered the Osprey book on hte CEF during WW1. I hope that will answer some of this for me but it may not be specific enough. Googling 42nd and 73rd CIB in WW1 has not given me definite answers.
RsJ, great pics of you in your Boer War uniforms, are the WPG products? Did you know that WPG has the Canadian serge tunic now? Also he has started to repro the 1899 Canadian Oliver pattern gear?
Thanks again for all the info!
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A while back, I posted about a pair of Strathcona boots for sale - BUT - I did it on the wrong forum. Look for it on the BROW forum.
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Smoke:
Watch your e-mail for a treasure trove of information regarding your Great Uncles .... including pdf files of their full C.E.F. service files, which are now available online as part of the ongoing digitization of those records! (I thought it best to send this stuff to you by e-mail rather than continue to divert this Boer War thread.)
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Do you use one of WPG's repros?
Yes, I think the KD items I am wearing are from WPG. Good stuff .... Not really the "regulation' 1896 pattern, but it is what is available ....
At any rate, photographs from the Boer War show an extremely wide (almost bewildering) range of shades and patterns of tunics (with noticeable differences in pocket-flap configuration, as well as collars - i.e. both standing and "stand and fall" collar patterns at the same time. As an example, this is a group of Officers of the 2nd Bttn., Royal Canadian Regiment of Infantry in South Africa. I think there is a mix of drill and serge tunics here, which would account for some of the tonal differences, but note how "un-uniform" they seem to be -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/2RCR%20Officers_South%20Africa_zpsx3elpnkj.jpg)
The Canadian Tunic that you posted sure does look an awful lot like the Canadian WW1 tunic. Is it possible that the Canadian tunic started out as simply a serge P'96 that later got hip pockets because the British had them? Or maybe they were Brit issue that the Canadians added breast pockets because they were more practical?
Actually, the main point I was trying to make about these apparently unique Canadian serge tunics is that they all apparently had both breast and skirt pockets from the outset, and in fact clearly look pretty much identical to the Pattern 1903 Canadian tunic, although clearly pre-dating its formal adoption in 1903 - in other words, that this pattern must have been a prototype or "trials pattern" introduced by Canada, which ultimately got adopted for general issue in 1903. (It is, indeed, the P'1903 tunic which Canadian soldiers were wearing at the start of WWI in 1914.)
Here, for example, are two details from a group photo of men of the 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles taken just after their return to Canada from South Africa in June of 1902, in which both British Pattern 1899 serge and "P'1903-like Canadian pattern" serge tunics are being worn. The differences are fairly obvious, but one telling feature is that the standing collar of the Canadian-pattern tunics is substantially higher than that of the P'1899 British tunics ....
First, the Canadian pattern, which looks so much like the not-yet-adopted P'1903 tunic, including its 7-button front closure -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/Detail01a_menof2CMRpriortodepartureof2ndContingentinJabnuary1902_zps59a98fcc.jpg)
Now, other men of the same unit, in the same group photo, but wearing British pattern 1899 tunics (technically "field service frocks") with their shorter (and probably more comfortable) standing collars and 5-button front closure -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/Detail02_menof2CMRpriortodepartureof2ndContingentinJabnuary1902_zps70489ade.jpg)
Every time I see pics of Canadian troops I think "your hats are crooked...square them away!" ;D Really cool to see how the troops in the field personalized their head gear.
Actually, a Canadian naturally thinks that a peaked American campaign hat is being worn a quarter turn out of proper orientation! And it is, of course, quite proper that we should think that way, since we were using the peaked felt hat pattern as military (and semi-military) headgear well before the Yanks started - i.e. in the 1890's, while formal adoption as part of the US Army uniform did not occur until 1911!
These men are members of the North West Mounted Police contingent in London for Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee celebrations in 1897, with this style already well ensconced as part of their uniform -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Mounted%20Police/NWMP1897contingent02_zps74b61993.jpg)
:) :D ;D
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.... What the heck are Attestation Papers? They seem to occur at enlistment so would that mean he was transferred to the 42nd CIB before he went overseas?
.... RsJ, great pics of you in your Boer War uniforms, are the WPG products? Did you know that WPG has the Canadian serge tunic now? Also he has started to repro the 1899 Canadian Oliver pattern gear?
Smoke: In response to your first question, I am sending a fairly lengthy e-mail, including the results of my review of the C.E.F. records of your Great Uncle John Percival Gourlay.
Suffice it to say, here, that an "Attestation Paper" was the document under which a man volunteered for service in the Canadian Expeditionary Force .... so, yes, it is his "enlistment papers" in a sense. However, keep in mind that these are archival copies .... sometimes only a duplicate (or even triplicate) copy of the original .... and many of them have notations on them clearly added at some later time, for various reasons.
One thing I will summarize here, however, is that the "42nd" notation typed on his form is a "red herring" - his files show that (presumably for administrative purposes) they basically just stuck him briefly in the 42nd Regiment (i.e. an existing Active Militia unit, and quite distinct from the 42nd Battalion of the Canadian Expeditionary Force) while his application for enlistment as an overseas volunteer in the 80th Battalion was being processed. Looks to me like he was on strength with the 42nd Regt. for about three weeks ( 25 Sept. to 15 Oct. 1915) before being transferred/accepted into the 80th Battalion. And that was only for a brief period because on November 11, 1915, he was transferred to the 32nd Battery (Artillery). It is not clear whether that transfer resulted from his own request or a perceived need by the authorities for artillerymen. ("You're enlisted now .... we can do whatever we want with you!")
Yes, as I indicated in my previous response, I do have a number of WPG reproductions, including a complete set of the Pattern 1899 Oliver Equipment .... some of which I am in fact wearing in the Infantry photo above. I actually have it all .... including the leather carrier for the infamous (and short-lived) glass soda-water-bottle, although that has only been added recently to the WPG line. I am not wearing the shoulder braces/yoke nor the valise, partly because that would be "full marching order" which is too cumbersome for the shooting activities I engage in, but also because original photographs make it clear that the troops in South Africa also usually preferred to wear only the waistbelt and large cartridge pouch, without braces or valise, even when engaged in patrols and such. For example, here is a detail cropped from a photograph of a squad of 2RCR men returning from a route march/patrol in South Africa -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/a56aa51a-9293-4baf-b03e-cf56943fc008_zpsweqwcraz.jpg)
For comparison, here is a photo of British infantry on the march, wearing their standard Slade-Wallace Equipment -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Boer%20War/8372b2f3-5393-4800-a35d-4b4a10cf655a_zpsv1easgmp.jpg)
I do know of WPG's reproduction Pattern 1903 serge tunic, and thought it would be absolutely ideal for a Boer War serge uniform, in view of my discovery of photos showing Canadians wearing an apparent prototype of it in the Boer War. Unfortunately, they don't yet offer it in a size large enough for me - 6' 4", 52 to 54" chest! (I inquired about getting a larger one made and was advised that they will likeley be able to offer larger sizes soon.)
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RsJ....THANK YOU! You have been a tremendous amount of help! I have gotten your email and started wading through the links/PDF's you sent. Great stuff! My email has been jacked up today, I can get email but have not been able to respond. ??? I think squirrels are on strike today.
I really appreciate the last email, I was pretty confused about his service records but you cleared it up. Thanks again.
You have a ton of photos!! They are a tremendous resource for research and what was really worn/done. It helps to answer about gear and uniforms. BTW thanks for clearing up the P1903 tunic info.
How is the quality of the WPG leather gear? I have/had some bits of their uniforms and they seem to be fine quality?
Yes, the Canadian were first to adopt the Montana peak. You guys win :( or maybe we win....my mom's family was still Canadian back then. I have to say, the Commonwealth troops were certainly a stylish group. They looked good while getting it done. I find this period fascinating. Sadly I cannot find any family that participated in this era.
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I've been very pleased with the quality of the reproduction Pattern 1899 Oliver equipment.
My family were arguably "Americans" once .... they were what are usually called "Tories" down there, I believe .... but are given the much more positive name of "Loyalists" up here .... A father and the three oldest of his four Sons were all enrolled in the King's Royal Regiment of New York .... and of course ended up in Canada. it appears that every person in Canada with our surname is descended from one of those four sons!
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I just found this on Facebook;
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/forgotten-grave-in-south-african-bush-recalls-canadians/article27216