Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Powder Room - CAS reloading => Topic started by: Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks on March 10, 2014, 08:32:56 PM
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Has anyone experienced this... Wondering ifn I just got a bad batch of unprimed Winchester Brass.
I am using 245 grain RNFP bullets in dia of .380". The rifle is a Winchester (Miroku) '85 Single Shot 38-55.
I can run the Win Brass thru Station 1 where it resizes the cartridge and installs a new primer. If I take the cartridge after resizing with no primer installed the Winchester brass will slid easily into the rifle chamber.
Here is the problem: Install the primer / charge the cartridge / seat the bullet / final crimp...
The loaded round will not load into the rifle chamber...
As the round is pushed into the chamber it will slid easily until the brass rim (lip) is about 1/16th to 1/8th from seating fully. You cannot push the cartridge all the way in with your finger, it is as though the "primer" or something is making the cartridge case "bulge" just a wee bit forward of the rim. IF you use a wooden dowel to seat the cartridge fully and then Close the action the action binds on the surface face of the cartridge... to get the cartridge out you have to remove it like you would a squib.
I have run out of ideas on how to solve this problem... unless this is just a bad batch of Winchester Brass, I bought to packets of 50 cartridges each and I have had this problem with 20 of the 100... have not tried anymore.
When using Starline Brass I do not have this problem... only with the Winchester Brass.
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Sounds like your bullet is to big, or you're putting to much crimp on and bulging the case ever so slight.
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Bore of Miroku 38-55 rifles is .376. You are using the wrong sized bullet, Sir. The .380 is for Marlin rifles.
The 38-55 is the most difficult cartridge I've encountered because of the variation in chamber lengths and bore diameters that exist -- even in modern rifles. One can make no assumptions about dimensions and must personally measure bore and chamber dimensions of each rifle to be loaded for.
There is no easy way.
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Ranch13- and August -
I made no assumptions on the bore and chamber size. I slugged the bore... it slugged out just a hair line short of .379" that is why ordered the bullets in dia of .380". I do not think it is the bullet. Ifn it was the bullet, then the problem would also be found in the Starline brass. When I reload the Starline brass the cartridge chambers the way it is suppose to. I was using a Lee factory Crimp die... I too thought I was putting too much crimp... so I backed off a wee bit so that there is hardly any crimp at all... but the Winchester brass still did not work right. I'm thinking I got some Winchester Brass that was made on Friday or Monday.
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If the brass chambers freely before you seat the bullet, then the problem is with the bullet seating. To much crimp, crimp not on a groove, or buckled case of some sort.
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Ranch 13-
Maybe I am not picking up on what you are saying... do not mean to be rude or otherwise... the problem is down near the "butt" of the cartridge (the case binds on the sides of the chamber and is keeping the cartridge from seating fully.) After forcibly removing one of the Winchester cartridges, I could see the drag marks on the cartridge body and these marks are as stated about 1/16" to 1/8" up from the cartridge case rim and the drag marks are all the way around the case. So for whatever reasons the case appears to bulge a wee bit up from the rim.
There are not rifling marks on the bullet indicating the bullet is not being forced into the rifling. There are no drag marks on the brass case up near the neck. Hoping that makes sense. I have just never experienced this with re-loads... BUT this 38-55 is new to me... have only had the rifle for a week. Have not fired it yet. Just cannot figure out WHY the Starline Brass loads work and this batch of Winchester Brass does not. Frustrating... I have just never experienced this with any of my other firearms in reloading.
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Load bullets in both make of case, then measure over the loaded bullet. The difference would represent the different casewall thickness.
Also measure the diameter of the case heads of both. Sounds like there might be a difference
I don't think that your bore/bullet fit is off. I'd guess the problem is a tight chamber.
Either way, stick to the Starline brass if that works.
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Ranch 13-
I meant to add in last post.. crimp is in the crimp grove. I have loaded some with the bullet deeper, did not help, I went so far as to load one round with no crimp... that did not help either. Case still binds... so then I thought maybe the primer was causing the case to bulge ??? just a WA guess... as stated... frustrated.
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Sir Charles-
I will check what you said... thanks a bunch...
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If the cartridge chambers after you resize it, then there's something going on in the next step. If you're crunching the cases seating a primer it's for a wonder you haven't set a primer off.
As Sir Charles pointed out, check the case mouth thickness, the Winchester brass might be thicker than the starline, and that would cause problems.
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Ranch 13-
Cases not crunched when seating primer... I did not think of doing what Sir Charles stated... I just checked and there lies the problem... The Winchester Brass is thicker than the Starline.... problem solved... as SC stated... "stick to the Starline if that works". Sorry for being dumb in regards to reloading 38-55. Thanks to all who responded.
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Just use a smaller bullet in the Winchester cases, or use them for paper patching, that's where the 38-55 made it's fame and fortune anyway, as a midrange target cartridge.
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Tom,
I had much the same problem loading 44-40, for some reason they would not chamber the last 1/4 to 1/8 of an inch. I solved the problem by running them back through a resizeing die with the deprimer removed. That is the solution I found to make the problem you are speaking of go away.
Old Top
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Tom,
The Winchester brass is thicker than the Starline, as you found out. I could be proven wrong, but I did quite a bit of research on the 38-55 when I got my Marlin. What appears to have happened is that Winchester uses 375 Winchester brass (which is a renamed 38-55 run at higher pressures) and simply stamps whichever "caliber" they are using that batch for on the rim. Since the 375 runs at higher pressure, their brass is a little thicker. My "research" seemed to indicate that if your bore was such that you needed a bullet of 0.380" or larger diameter, you normally had to use the Starline brass. I've stuck with Starline and have found my Marlin to be very accurate and a lot of fun to shoot.
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Old Top- Thanks for that ... a local friend told me to do the same, he stated it solved his problem which was also with a 44-40.
Blackpowder Burn- I will remember that ...I had not thought of that ref the 375 brass...
I surely thank all of you pokes for the help. Thanks to all. Horn
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Old Top -
I did what a friend of mine local and what you said... remove the depriming pin and resize the loaded cartridge in the sizing die. WORKED LIKE A CHAMP...even takes the bulge out of the neck of the brass ... That is the best advice I have received on this problem which was really frustrating me. In my golden years cannot think of WHY I did not think of that...Laughing. Many many thanks to you OLD TOP... PROBLEM IS SOLVED... the Winchester brass now loads the way it is suppose to.
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Tom,
I also use a Lee Factory Crimp Die as the last stage on reloading, makes sure the bullet is secured in the brass and cannot move back into the brass and mess up your whole day.
Top, Old one of
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I use fireformed .30-30 cases as alternatives. The major problem is the erratic case weights (resulting in erratic case volume!) found even in cases of the same manufacturer. My fireformed cases are almost all of a uniforn 2.03" length.
The case necks are thinner, generally.
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Sir Charles- I thought of doing that, but then again as you stated the 30-30 cases are really thin.... probably would not hold up for too many reloads... might have to do that if the suppliers of brass get as bad as the powder makers are at present. When you "fireformed the 30-30 brass for your 38-55.. What load in the 30-30 did you use for fireforming?
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Old Top -
I am using the Lee Factory Crimp as the last stage for the reloads....hmmmm let me restate that... when reloading the Winchester Brass the Factory Crimp Die is "next to last Stage" ... have added another STAGE for the Winchester Brass... RESIZING THE LOADED CARTRIDGE..... Laugh
I use a very tight crimp in the crimping grove... Someone told me that maybe my crimping was causing the problem.... but I found that it was not the crimp... it was the Winchester case... which when seating the .380" dia bullet was probably causing the case to expand to some degree. But using your suggestion ... that solved the problem... loads like a champ now. Thanks much.
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Folks....Just got a '94 Legendary Frontiersman. Reloaded about 20 rounds this morning. I'm having similar problems with my reloads. Last 1/8" of lever is tough. I'll try resizing the loaded cartridge and see where that takes me.
thanks for this information....
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Folks....Just got a '94 Legendary Frontiersman. Reloaded about 20 rounds this morning. I'm having similar problems with my reloads. Last 1/8" of lever is tough. I'll try resizing the loaded cartridge and see where that takes me. Thanks for this information....
Good Troy; what are your bullet AND bore diameters. Getting the diameters of the bullet, bore and case neck balanced can be a bit of a trick, I am told. Try some of Tom Horn's techniques.
Get the bullet diameter as close to groove diameter as possible AND STILL CHAMBER THE LOADED ROUND. The .38-55 was pre-SAAMI and these measurements don't always match.
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When the loaded round is sized (resized) in the sizing die, the lead bullet itself is resized. The .380 bullets you started with are no longer .380. Pull one from a round so processed and measure it.
With a large bore requiring large bullets for best accuracy, I would suggest using the thinner walled Starline brass. If you wish to use your Winchester brass, it can be inside reamed or outside turned in the neck area to fit your chamber with the larger bullet.
TR
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Sir Charles,
My bore is 0.380. This is based on the measurement of a lead round ball foreced (hammered) into the muzzle, not forced through the barrel entirely. My bullets are as cast 255 grains from Missouri Bullet, and measure 0.381 to 0.383. I have not sized them. I'm using Starline Brass (short) prep'd with RCBS dies for the 38-55 Ballard/Winchester.
When chambering a loaded round, or the blank which has no primer and seated bullet only, the last bit of the lever is tough to make up. I see no evidence of the bullet "bottoming out" on the barrel. There are slight scratches on the case that appear to be from loading in the tube and our the lifter.
The bullet appears to be whopperjawed (technical term for not on center-line/canted/cocked). There is a slight bulge on one side of the case at the base of the bullet, but not the entire perimeter of the case. I get this bulge on the case even when it isn't loaded with powder, so it isn't from overfill of BP. I suspect this bulge is my culprit, thoug I see no offending marks/indications on the cartridge...note, I did make this inspection early this morning before work, so, it warrants a more thorough inspection.
On first setting the seating/crimping die, I tried an OAL of 2.510". I just could get the lever to close. So, I dropped the OAL to 2.505". This made it much easier...so I stuck with that for my loaded rounds. Note that I have very little crimp on these...
When I set the bullet on the case to be seated, it isn't very stable....it acts like I need to expand the mouth more. But, it there is plent of room to insert the bullet in the expanded mouth. I'm beginning to wonder if I've "undersized" case/neck, thus the bullett is not able to seek a plumb position for seating.
I plan to check the action with a sized only case. As well, I'll check my sized case dimensions, and experiment with more expansion and OAL if necessary.
Any other advice or comments are very much appreciated!
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Take one of your hard to seat cartridges and coat it with magic marker. insert it into the chamber and close the action. remove it and you will KNOW where it is over sized. wM1
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Thanks Wildman!
I'm embarrased that I didn't come up with that myself, but not so much that I won't take the advise!
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Sir Charles- I thought of doing that, but then again as you stated the 30-30 cases are really thin.... probably would not hold up for too many reloads... might have to do that if the suppliers of brass get as bad as the powder makers are at present. When you "fireformed the 30-30 brass for your 38-55.. What load in the 30-30 did you use for fireforming?
Tom Horn; I was reviewing this thread and realized I didn't respond to your questions. I haven't done an endurance test but fire-formed .30-30 cases will hold up, with their economy being the major advantage. Their disadvantage, if any, is that they are about 10 thou' shorter than the original long WCF cases. If bullets being too large to chamber turns out to be a problem then using .30-30 cases which tend to be thinner at the neck might actually help.
To fire-form .30-30, or .32 Special cases to .38-55; Prime, drop in 15 grains of Bullseye powder and as much paper towel crammed on top, up to the case mouth as you can force in. Go to the range or other safe place, load, point straight up & pull the trigger, After stepping out from under the rain cover! (I only say point up to encourage case concentricity upon firing. If it doesn't make sense at your range; - no biggie!)
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Wildman and Sir Charles....thank you for your input.
I did as Wildman suggested.....tell-tale ring around the mouth of the case.
Added some more crimp, and presto! It is just as smooth as my buddy's 94!
Now, let's see how the loads perform. Will likely be Friday before I get the range.
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Wildman and Sir Charles....thank you for your input.
I did as Wildman suggested.....tell-tale ring around the mouth of the case.
Added some more crimp, and presto! It is just as smooth as my buddy's 94!
Now, let's see how the loads perform. Will likely be Friday before I get the range.
Report expected, with photos of successful grouping.
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Made it to the range Sunday with the Legendary Frontiersman 38-55, and my first reloads.
I was quite pleased with the results. I a 3 shot group of 1" spread at 50 yds, and 2-1/4 at 100.
Hopefully I'll get some photographic evidence posted this evening.
Also, the rifle was quite pleasant to shoot, and a smooth action...
Now, the H&R Trapdoor carbine was another story, for another thread...I could use some better sights on it for sure!
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Finally...the evidence....
38-55 Starline short brass
245 grain RNFP as cast (0.381" nominal diam) Missouri Bullet #1 Ballard
2.8 cc of Pyrodex R/S (all I could fit without compression die, which should be delivered this weekend)
I'm pleased. Once I adjust windage, I'll be ready for a match.
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Two inch groups at 100 yards is a very good start.
A few random points;
1. What back sight are you using. If you don't have one yet, get a SOULE Mid-Range. My Hi-Wall wears a Montana Vintage Arms. If your wallet is in better shape than your eyes, you might spring for a Malcolm telescopic sight?
2. If you are still using Pyrodex, get an opinion on whether it is a good idea to compress. I know about real gunpowder, but I haven't used much Pyrodex, but found accuracy only so-so.
3. What length are your Winchester cases? Could a mismatch of chamber length have been the cause of your trouble? But anyway, the Starlines work.
4. Perhaps experimenting with the location of the fore end on the front bag and care with your bench rest technique could yield results? Not trying to teach new tricks, but to improve groups from here requires dedication. 8)
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Sir Charles....
I'm using a stock semi-buckhorn. I'll keep it for now, as I'm only shooting out to about 150 yds max in CAS matches. I've used a Soule before on a friends Sharps...it is a fine sight!
I think you are right about Pryodex and compression. I'll swap to straight up holy black when I use up this 1lb.
The starline I'm using is the short brass. I don't have any Winchesters. The issue I was having originally is that I didn't crimp near enough....hardly at all, and it was trying to crimp when I closed the action!
I should be going to the range tomorrow. I'll see what I can do about getting her zero'd, and tightening up the groups...I'm a terrible rifle shot, but it isn't anything that a few several thousand rounds won't fix!!
By the way, that was two different elevation settings on the 100yd target. And if you notice the 45 cal holes all over the place, that is from my 45-70 Trapdoor carbine. It has (had) a front sight that is near impossible to see. I put a new brass blade front sight on it. I'll give it a try....Boy...I'm certainly off topic here!
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For a straight wall BP cartridge case, I have heard some of the BPCR crowd say that they leave some of the "bell" from the bullet seating stage.
In fact, they seem to be doing just that;- Finish the seating with the final closing of the action. Just a final touch, mind you, enough to ensure the bullet nose is tight to the "leade".
Have you seen this site?
http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf