Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Uberti, Pietta and other SAA Clones => Topic started by: Virginia Gentleman on February 26, 2014, 03:06:40 PM
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I for one am glad that the Italian manufacterers and the various importers make these guns, otherwise we could not afford or even want to shoot an original or might not want a high priced 3rd generation Colt to use and enjoy in CAS. The reproductions are affordable, very well made with modern steel and can be shot with smokeless powder in the cartridge guns. New calibers the original guns were never chambered for are available and in "fantasy" configurations like the Thunderer. Like a 3rd gen Colt some of these guns need to be worked on to smooth them out a bit or need some better springs installed, but otherwise for the money, durablilty and authenticity are money well spent. Too bad USFA stopped making their version which some would make the case it was made better than even the originals. Hats off to the Italian manufacterers for making a very good product that we can really enjoy and that is available. :)
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I have a couple of Colt's that I do not carry in the dirt and grime, I do carry my Italians when the gun may get abused.
I work at a business where we introduce customers to late 1800 firearms and their use; San Antonio Western Shooting.
I let them know that they are not shooting original guns because if they drop an Italian I don't have heart failure.
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The fact that we can get the Italian guns at such a good price compared to what any Colt costs and be able to justiy using them in such demanding environments is a great situation to be in these days. Most people who will casually shoot one will get basically the same experience as they would with "Colt the magic pony." ;D
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The only reason I have a SAA is the price of the Italian clones was cheap enough to justify it. I too am very glad I could get one at a reasonable price.
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I have to agree that the price of a "Colt the magic pony" SAA is way too high to justify buying a 3rd generation gun over a reproduction. The Italian replicas in most cases are not only cheaper, but in many ways better than the 3rd gen Colt. Most of them shoot better too. I was next to another guy who was shooting one of the better finished recent Colt 3rd gens and it was in .45 Colt. He was all over the paper with it. I let him shoot my Taylor's Uberti SAA and he shot it better even with his ammo and said it looked more period correct than the modern Colt. I explained to him that it was an Italian reproduction he could not believe it as his father in law told him not to buy "spaghetti guns" as they were junk. I think handling and shooting my gun changed his mind especially when I told him the price. ;D
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I like my Italians but my 3rd Generation Colt's shoot very well.
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My 3rd Gen. Colt 44-40 is an excellent shooter, only very slightly better that my Uberti SAA. But truth be told I prefer my Uberti Remington 75's.
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I work at a business where we introduce customers to late 1800 firearms and their use; San Antonio Western Shooting.
I might try to get my brother in there, that looks cool. He has never "shot cowboy" and lacks the patience to get involved in CAS, but a one time trip into cowboy type shooting? Yeah, he might like that.
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As a kid I lusted over Colt SAA's due to the movies and the writings of Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton. Nothing has changed in 50 years so I guess I'll always be a Colt man. However, thank God for the Italians! The availability of so many different calibers, barrel lengths and other features is a real blessing. So I can indulge my passion for the old original calibers in a way I could never afford to do if there were no reproductions. I laugh when I think back to the first couple of new Colts I was able to find. When i explained I wanted to shove them in a holster and shoot blackpowder, I was told they are too expensive, don't shoot them at all! I'm certainly not wealthy as a School Teacher but I will continue to acquire as many Colts and reproductions as possible and count myself lucky. When the buzzer goes off and you fill your hand they all feel pretty darn good! Navy Six
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I'd like for Remington to come out with a copy of their model '75. Yeah, Remington not a copy. I really wanted a S&W but Oh Lord they were/are high.
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A couple of years ago, Remington did put one in the catalog, but that's as far as it went.
Scouts Out!
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The first SA revolver I laid hands on as a kid was an old 1851 that had been dry-fired to the point that the nipples were pounded shut and the hand spring was busted so that the cylinder would not advance. I traded that off due to adolescent stupidity back in '67. Many moons later, in 1977 my wife bought me a inexpensive brass-framed 1851 ($34) but I only fired it one time. Since that time I had always wanted another steel-framed '51. Thank goodness for the reproductions. Now I am accumulating them as well as my pocketbook allows. These Italian reproduction also allow me to tinker more. Though I still consider myself a novice in comparison to the many folks who post here I have learned a lot. It also keeps me busy in the garage and out of my wifes hair. Perhaps that is why she doesn't protest too much when a pckage from Dixie shows up or when the smell of soot permeates the house. ::)
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I've owned a lot of Colts over the years, but for my present needs I can't see spending $50.00 to $100.00+ per letter to have COLT stamped on the guns.
MY first series AWAs look, feel, and shoot like my 2nd generation 1959 Colt.
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Double tap. Wonder how that happened.
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I'd like for Remington to come out with a copy of their model '75. Yeah, Remington not a copy. I really wanted a S&W but Oh Lord they were/are high.
I was thinking the same thing on the Remington. Probably a long shot, but it couldn't hurt to dream.
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Let us not ignore the fact that Colt hasn't shipped a new manufacture SAA to a dealer in over THREE years. Has not taken any orders for the custom shop. And probably won't in the foreseeable future. Made from unobtainieum. The only available Colts are being sold on Gunbroker and other on line sites for absolutely STUPID money.
Let us give a hearty round of applause to Uberti and Pietta.
Coffinmaker
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Everyone is making plastic guns. I was at a gun show yesterday and it was like walking through a Tupper Ware Store. I wonder how long it will be before people figure out that 'Die Hard' was just a movie?
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I for one am not a fan of Tupperware and like my guns made of steel and wood. The Italians have done an excellent job of using good materials in their construction, even the springs are better now.
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I gotta say, I'm not in any hurry to trade any one of my Colt SAA's for any 3 repop's.....made by anybody.
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Wouldn't it be nice to buy a Colt BP Frame SAA for $450 to $500? I don't guess we'll see those days again.
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Wouldn't it be nice to buy a Colt BP Frame SAA for $450 to $500? I don't guess we'll see those days again.
That's why Rugers are cheap as most of their Prescott labor force are temp workers who earn $10.50 hr. & no bennies. Sort of puts Ruger in a different light. ::)
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That's why Rugers are cheap as most of their Prescott labor force are temp workers who earn $10.50 hr. & no bennies. Sort of puts Ruger in a different light. ::)
Rugers are more than Ubertis though. Most I see are 50.00-100.00 more.
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Let us not ignore the fact that Colt hasn't shipped a new manufacture SAA to a dealer in over THREE years. Has not taken any orders for the custom shop. And probably won't in the foreseeable future. Made from unobtainieum. The only available Colts are being sold on Gunbroker and other on line sites for absolutely STUPID money.
Let us give a hearty round of applause to Uberti and Pietta.
Coffinmaker
To the bold - Is that really true? The reason I'm asking is the following short story:
In June 2012 I went to a local gun store and placed an order with them for a Colt SAA. They told me it would be 2-4 month wait time.
I was naive and didn't do any research to I plopped down 50%. Months and months went by with no word. I got suspicious and started researching this gun shop only to find out they have a HORRIBLE reputation in all aspects of their business.
After 12 months went by I asked for a realistic estimate and they have no clue. So I asked for my money back.
At first they balked, but after 3 months of phone calls and emails I begrudgingly got a refund.
Then, about a month later I get an email from them saying the Colt just showed up in their mail and asked if I still wanted it. I said yes. However multiple attempts by me via email to get a further response went unanswered.
I figured the shop decided to sell it to someone else for a premium and didn't want to fess up.
Given what you stated I now wonder if they were up to some other kind of shenanigans.
This is a chain gun shop in WA and OR that no one should deal with.
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Name names.
... The reason I'm asking is the following short story:
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This is a chain gun shop in WA and OR that no one should deal with.
If indeed these folks should be avoided, state the name of the shop for all to see.
-FZ
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If indeed these folks should be avoided, state the name of the shop for all to see.
I agree (living in those areas especially).
CC Griff
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Name names.
If indeed these folks should be avoided, state the name of the shop for all to see.
-FZ
Discount Gun Sales
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Thank you.
CC Griff
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Thanks!
-FZ
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I would also point out that Colt's current offering is more of a copy with different threading for the barrel, screws and internals that are not the same as the origin the original design. :-[
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The Colt Custom Shop produces around 200 SAAs per month, with a 2 year backorder situation. This is what Colt thinks is viable, and history tends to prove them correct. Wither USFA. I have Italian SAAs, and I have Colts. I like them both, and both were worth what I paid. IMHO of course!
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The grip that Colt the pony with modern SAAs that are not anymore authentic to the first gen design never ceases to amaze me. If you are a collector drink the 3rd gen Koop aide, otherwise , the reproductions are more bang for the buck.
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That's why Rugers are cheap as most of their Prescott labor force are temp workers who earn $10.50 hr. & no bennies. Sort of puts Ruger in a different light. ::)
Where did you get this information? ???
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During the middle of the last century there was little demand for Single Action Revolvers. When WWII started the nation geared up for war time production. The old machinery made to produce the Peacemaker was pushed out to allow for the making of other guns. After the war, the machinery was in very poor condition. When the demand for the SAA again reached a point to make them profitable new machinery was needed and built or bought. New methods and new ways did effect the product. They aren't exactly the same but what product do you know of that was made in 1873 is even still made now? If you could find one I'm very sure it wouldn't be exactly the same. Even my Cowboy Boots are made by a Chinese guy on a machine.
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...Even my Cowboy Boots are made by a Chinese guy on a machine.
Mine were made by a Mexican guy on a machine. :)
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When you beat up on the 3d Generation Colt SAA's some of you are coming off as if it's a case of sour grapes as if that is your excuse for purchasing a clone. I have owned a 3d Generation SAA .44 Special 7.5 " barrel it was a beautiful l gun, I currently own (3) 2d Generation SAA's all shooters. To each his own but there is no sense in beating up the originals in order to justify your purchase of a clone. Just my 2 cents, YMMV
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Mine were made by a Mexican guy on a machine. :)
God bless all Chinese and Mexican guys making reproductions for us. Hey, toss in the Italians and Turks as well . . .
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When you beat up on the 3d Generation Colt SAA's some of you are coming off as if it's a case of sour grapes as if that is your excuse for purchasing a clone.......... To each his own but there is no sense in beating up the originals in order to justify your purchase of a clone. Just my 2 cents, YMMV
Well here's how I see it. I have two Colt revolvers and twelve Uberti revolvers. Not just SAA clones, but a conversion, open top, S&W russian, Bisley. Guns that Colt doesn't make. For the cost of these twelve revolvers I could've owned what, three more Colts. All the same model 1873. The truth is, as far as function and accuracy, a Colt won't do anything a Uberti can't at less than a third of the price. Fact is a lot of people don't see spending enough money to buy three or four Uberti or Pietta revolvers on basically the same gun with a cute little horsey and "colt" stamped on it. A new Colt is no more "historical" than a new Uberti. Just another new gun. I have noticed that some guys that own honest to God, genuine, Colts come off as having a superiority complex that causes them to spout crap like the above quote. No sense beating up on folks that can't afford $1400 or don't want to spend that much money on 141 year old technology. It's no excuse, I'll likely never buy another Colt. I can't say the same about Ubertis. You like Colts, fantastic. I personally don't think they are worth $1400 (or more) a pop. To each his own. ;)
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You like Colts, fantastic. I personally don't think they are worth $1400 (or more) a pop. To each his own. ;)
Yes I do like Colts and you make some very valid points as to the various Uberti models that are offered VS. just the. Colt SAA. By all means own whatever you want and be assured that you will never hear me dogging your choice like some of the folks on here dog the Colts. You said in your post "to each his own" it is ok that I do not get too excited about clones isn't it?
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be assured that you will never hear me dogging your choice like some of the folks on here dog the Colts.
Actually, you did.
you are coming off as if it's a case of sour grapes as if that is your excuse for purchasing a clone.
no sense in beating up the originals in order to justify your purchase of a clone.
How much sense does it make to come to the "Colt SAA CLONE" forum and tell the folks that they have a "case of sour grapes" because they don't own a genuine Colt or have to "justify" buying a Uberti or Pietta? There are a lot of reasons people buy "clones" instead of a Colt. Me personally, I think Colt SAAs are extremely overpriced for what they are and Ubertis are the best bang for the buck. Personally I do not care in the least what you get excited about, but telling me or anyone else we need to have an "excuse" or to "justify" the purchase of a clone isn't exactly "not dogging my choice". ::)
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Actually, you did.
How much sense does it make to come to the "Colt SAA CLONE" forum and tell the folks that they have a "case of sour grapes" because they don't own a genuine Colt or have to "justify" buying a Uberti or Pietta? There are a lot of reasons people buy "clones" instead of a Colt. Me personally, I think Colt SAAs are extremely overpriced for what they are and Ubertis are the best bang for the buck. Personally I do not care in the least what you get excited about, but telling me or anyone else we need to have an "excuse" or to "justify" the purchase of a clone isn't exactly "not dogging my choice". ::)
You are right and I am wrong I apologize.
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I own both clones and real Colt's. The clones are nice and I shoot'm a lot. The Colt's are my best handguns and I shoot'm on occasion. Are the clones really nice, yes they are. Will I wear my Colt's on horseback in the rain, nope. Will I wear a clone on horseback in the rain, yep. I have both kinds for a reason.
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Trying to wrap my thoughts around this whole concept of who's who in SAA design manufacturing.
Colt themselves ceased manufacturing the SAA twice, in the ensuing War years & also due to Colts own perceived decline in sales and demand.
So, in the truest definition of the word , Colt is into the reproduction of the SAA themselves.
Lets look at the Colt 1911 a moment ,are not the current and former 1911 manufacturers ( some 50 or more ) , excluding original Colt themselves not Clones ?
And isn't the current Series of Colt 1911 not a clone of the original , just as the current 3rd. generation SAA is of the original 1873 SAA ?
We as humans tend to label, and tend to set on pedestals some branding , I think of Omega & Rolex watches as a FINE Jewelry time piece.
But a Timex is a fine daily wear workingman's time piece .... It not a Clone of Omega or Rolex but does the job.
Ruger is not clone of the SAA , it is a variation on the theme, it works and is good workingman's option.
The Uberties & Pietta's are Replicas , they are in some cases closer to the original, they exist and sell in greater numbers because
they work and is very good workingman's option.
Colt owns the ( if you will ) pedestal, in branding the Single Action Army , one is paying as much or more for the BRAND as the product, (not to mention the supply & demand , union labor & Conn. labor demands costs )
I also find the idea of buying a Colt , Rolex , or even a Ferrari for posterity strange to me , I want shoot , wear or drive it.
I don't really care if 50 or 100 years from now someone happens to acquire it as un-fired, worn or driven !
It was mine once , and I was here once !
my 2 cents and about what it's worth :)
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A very gentle rejoinder here: I have both, I like both, but there are differences.
The Colts have a treated, hardened insert at the breech face to prevent peening and primer extrusion. This is a labor intensive and time consuming military requirement that the offshore models have dropped, for price and practicality considerations. When my Cimmerron 7th cavalry began cutting primers, I had one of these installed, at surprising expense, but I valued the military markings of this model. 99% of folks would never notice this, and is a worthwhile trade off for higher production. But I like having the option.
The other problem the offshore models can have is spring temper, particularly the small leaf springs of the hand, bolt and trigger. All of these have broke at one time or another on my Italians, and all have been replaced by Colt Springs. Colts lower production and higher price allows the time and cost for springs such as these. That Colt operates the way it does allows me the luxury of being able to by these small parts for my offshore guns. 2 of my three Uberties also now have Colt Bolts for the same reasons.
Both are produced and priced in accordance with what the market will bear. One is not an overpriced rip off, nor is the other a "cheap" copy. They simply are what they are, and I'm glad to have, and own, both.
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Both are produced and priced in accordance with what the market will bear. One is not an overpriced rip off, nor is the other a "cheap" copy. They simply are what they are, and I'm glad to have, and own, both.
Well said
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I own about 10 Colts so I want to come from a position of ownership and experience in this discussion. I shoot all of them from time to time too, but I do not have a 3rd gen Colt and have no desire to own one since I am lucky enough to have older Colts and USFAs. I keep hearing how 3rd gen Colt parts are harder and springs are better, but back in 2005 there was an article in one of the gun rags that showed they were the same. True, the firing pin bushing that is milled into place causes some price increase, but not 300% worth since USFAs had and I believe Pietta has them now on their newer guns. A 3rd gen Colt is way overpriced and it is not just my opinion, there was a CAS shooting magazine years back that had a test comparing all the reproductions (USFA was still in business and deemed to be the undisputed best) with the 3rd gen Colt. Colt came in dead nuts last in every one of their categories except the case colors on the frame which it came in second. There is a matter of opinion, some facts that show either better authenticity or some parts that may or may not have some durablility advantages, but other than speculation of the BRAND in value, materially Colt really does not hold any advantage. I had to help a friend who inherited a 1980s 3rd gen replace the hand spring and the bolt spring because both had snapped after only 100 or so rounds being put through the gun. Until recently, Colt took a short cut in press fitting a short non-removable cylinder pin bushing in place. A very non traditional manufacturing Colt method and an not authentic to the original design with only shaving dollars off production costs in mind. The other thing I noticed about the Colt was how overbuffed and dished out the screw holes were, how the grips sat too proud on the backstrap, not to mention the gaps in the frame to backstrap and trigger guard that were glaring....on a $1300+ gun one would expect a lot more quality out of Colt. The newer ones, to be fair are better, but don't look or shoot any better than Cimarron or EMF GW 2 with a US finish. In fact, the imports from these two importers seem to be better timed and smoother for much less money. One has to be a bit wary too of a gun that has a caution not to shoot the gun because it may lower the value...LOL! I can never get over that one. ;D
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"One has to be a bit wary too of a gun that has a caution not to shoot the gun because it may lower the value...LOL!"
That is what I was alluding to when I wrote
" I also find the idea of buying a Colt , Rolex , or even a Ferrari for posterity strange to me , I want shoot , wear or drive it.
I don't really care if 50 or 100 years from now someone happens to acquire it as un-fired, worn or driven !
It was mine once , and I was here once "
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All my Colts are 3rd Generation. The oldest being 1998. I know what I have, and I know how they operate. The 80s were a bad decade, of that there is no doubt. I credit the turnaround in 1994, when the move to a new facility was made.
As for Gunrags. Well, that is your term, but accurate. Rags in general: He who advertises the most wins, wether it be cars, guns, motorcycles or toasters. They tell me my car is unreliable, Krags load slow, you need at least 100 HP to be happy, and my toaster burns every time. None of which is true.
Colt sells to both collectors and shooters. Firing the gun, any gun, lowers its value. So does driving your car off the lot. Colt is condemned for being honest? Burying it for a few hundred years will restore the value of course. Mine have several thousand rounds thru them BTW.
Some folks buy firearms as an investment. Its not something I value myself, but i don't denigrate it. An unfired 1st generation Colt has appreciated several hundred times the rate of inflation. Firearms and Jewlery are considered the only true durable man made items, and both command premiums on the collector market. Why would someone pay more for a Tiffany ring over Zales?
Shall I base my opinions of Offshore guns on a random late model Armi San Marco?
But I tire of this silliness.
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With all due respect, measurements, timing, shooting results, polishing and quality standards and comparing like products is done everyday, often with factual results and common sense conclusions. I am happy for you that you like your 3rd gen Colts, maybe you got a few of the better ones off the line, but with more than 30 years of shooting, 'smithing and looking at SAAs, 3rd gens IMHO are not a good product for the money given a typical example. That is my experience and my opinion, that is formed around facts and user experience (my friends who own 3rd gens have let me shoot and work on them) there are better products to spend your money on if you want to use and shoot the gun. In the accuracy department, 3rd gen. Colt SAAs seem to be very average, not outstanding by any measure.
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Colt lovers are funny. They accuse us of having a "case of sour grapes" because we own "clones", or we need to "justify" our purchase, or call our point of view "silliness" because we do not think a new Colt is worth $1400 for what you get. And they do this on the COLT SAA CLONE board. ::) As I said I own two Colt SAAs. Both 2nd generations. In the past I have owned 1st and 3rd gens too and have shot dozens more. None of them would do anything a Uberti cannot do. Other than the firing pin bushing there is really no difference in manufacture. A Colt isn't any stronger than a Uberti. Most don't shoot any better. The feel and balance of the two is about the same. Colt and Uberti both replicate technology that was cutting edge 141 years ago. A new Colt isn't any more "historical" than a new Uberti. The biggest difference is that one offers all the features of the famed SAA for $1000 less than the other. That means a lot to some folks for one reason or another. And for the record, the 3rd gen I owned was alright in the accuracy department, but wasn't finished near as well as most of the Ubertis I own.
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Colt lovers are funny. They accuse us of having a "case of sour grapes" because we own "clones", or we need to "justify" our purchase, or call our point of view "silliness" because we do not think a new Colt is worth $1400 for what you get. And they do this on the COLT SAA CLONE board. ::) As I said I own two Colt SAAs. Both 2nd generations. In the past I have owned 1st and 3rd gens too and have shot dozens more. None of them would do anything a Uberti cannot do. Other than the firing pin bushing there is really no difference in manufacture. A Colt isn't any stronger than a Uberti. Most don't shoot any better. The feel and balance of the two is about the same. Colt and Uberti both replicate technology that was cutting edge 141 years ago. A new Colt isn't any more "historical" than a new Uberti. The biggest difference is that one offers all the features of the famed SAA for $1000 less than the other. That means a lot to some folks for one reason or another. And for the record, the 3rd gen I owned was alright in the accuracy department, but wasn't finished near as well as most of the Ubertis I own.
MJN77: I could not agree MORE with your statement in your last post. I think for those of us who want to shoot and enjoy a reproduction of a 19th century designed SAA or other firearm, buying the Uberti and Pietta reproductions is clearly the way to go. That is why I am glad the Italian gunmakers still produce them for us and they do a fantastic job with guns that are durable and shoot very well. I am saddened that US Firearms could not stay in the market as I think they clearly made the highest quality SAA reproduction, but like Colt folks, I find myself not shooting them regularly like I do the others since they are becoming collectable now that they are out of production. I do enjoy shooting the Uberti made SAAs and they more than get the job done for a whole lot less than a Colt. Again, your choice and mileage may vary. ;)
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To be clear, I do not have anything against Colts. But to say that the $1400 price is justified is BS. Why? Because they are American made? No. Ruger revolvers are American made too. Rugers are "safer" and stronger than any Colt and can be had in the $500-$600 range. Is it Colts fit and finish? No. Same as with Ubertis, I have seen Colts that were beautiful, but have also seen some that had tool marks. That had poorly fitted grips. That had off center front sights. Are they more "historical"? No. A 2014 manufactured Colt has the same "history" that a 2014 manufactured Uberti has. Will a Colt outperform a Uberti/Pietta? No. Like the fit and finish, accuracy can be hit or miss ;D. I think it all comes down to brand name. Some folks will shell out big $$$ for their favorite brand name product because they think it's the best even if they can't quite tell you why it's better. Other people will buy the "off brand" because while it costs less, you still get everything the big brand name has to offer. For the cost of my twelve Uberti revolvers I could buy three, maybe four new Colts. I don't see how that would be a better deal. Everyone on this forum have a lot of the same likes and dislikes. We all have different feelings and opinions too. If you buy Colts because you wanted a Colt, good for you. Nothing wrong with that at all. But when you act superior towards people that don't drool over the almighty Colt like you do, you just end up looking like a pompous fool.
(http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss359/mjn77/PiersMorganCLOWN_zps41e3b550.jpg) (http://s591.photobucket.com/user/mjn77/media/PiersMorganCLOWN_zps41e3b550.jpg.html)
But I tire of this silliness.
::)
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This sounds like a Harley versus everyone else argument that I hear on Motorcycle forums.
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Basically that is a true analogy, fanatical brand loyalty inspite of facts to the contrary and you will get demonized or attacked if you point out such facts that their "Colt Unicorn Dust" has no effect on. Sorry this thread got hijacked a bit, but the reality is the newer gun makers making all of the reproductions are doing a great job and they make models and variants that would not be made otherwise.
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Here's a good example. I was at Cabelas today. Looking around their gun room I saw two Bisley revolvers in one of the display cases. One was a by God actual genuine Colt and the other was an old Navy Arms/Uberti. I asked to look at both. They felt the same. They looked very much alike. The action worked the same on both. They were near identical. I had the gun room employee put the "pre-owned" $3000 Colt back in the case and I came home with the "pre-owned" $325 Uberti. I just don't see paying an extra $2675 for a little horsey and the word "COLT". Most American made modern high quality double action revolvers cost under $1000. Most American made top of the line semi auto pistols cost under $1000. Why exactly is an American made single action revolver worth $1400? I would genuinely like an actual answer to that question. If you have that kind of money to spend on one and it's what you want, have at it. I just don't see it. That's all I have to say because.......
I tire of this silliness.
:D ;D :D ;D :D ;D I love this pompous little line.
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Yeah, and just because her name is Sandra Bullock doesn't mean I'd like to go out with her. I like my Italian Guns but i scrimped and saved to buy my Colt's if you didn't that 's your deal.
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Congratulations. ::)
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I own older non third generation Colts, they have real COLLECTOR VALUE, the newer stuff is overpriced voodoo brand marketing. The quality just isn't there to justify the outrageous price that is way out of line to the competition.
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My simple observation is, that without the Italians efforts during the 60's producing the SAA's for the Movie(Spaghetti westerns) industry I wouldn't be enjoying my collection of six guns. So I tip my hat to them for doing what Colt failed to do. I'm fairly confident that Uberti has more enthusiasm for the spirit of the West than Colt.
Awesome....just awesome we can strap on a six gun and shoot!
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My simple observation is, that without the Italians efforts during the 60's producing the SAA's for the Movie(Spaghetti westerns) industry I wouldn't be enjoying my collection of six guns. So I tip my hat to them for doing what Colt failed to do. I'm fairly confident that Uberti has more enthusiasm for the spirit of the West than Colt.
Awesome....just awesome we can strap on a six gun and shoot!
[/quote
Very well said sir!
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To be clear, I do not have anything against Colts. But to say that the $1400 price is justified is BS. Why? Because they are American made? No. Ruger revolvers are American made too. Rugers are "safer" and stronger than any Colt and can be had in the $500-$600 range. Is it Colts fit and finish?...
The vast majority of Ruger's Prescott, AZ factory workers are temporary workers who make $10.00 hr. & no bennies. ::) That's why Ruger moved there: cheap labor. Now if you had a son or daughter in the workforce would you be more proud of them if they worked at Colt for a good salary & bennies or at Ruger for peanuts with a bunch of illegal aliens? Think about it. There is a huge social price to be paid for a Walmart World.
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The vast majority of Ruger's Prescott, AZ factory workers are temporary workers who make $10.00 hr. & no bennies. ::) That's why Ruger moved there: cheap labor. Now if you had a son or daughter in the workforce would you be more proud of them if they worked at Colt for a good salary & bennies or at Ruger for peanuts with a bunch of illegal aliens? Think about it. There is a huge social price to be paid for a Walmart World.
There's something to be said about "Entry level jobs/employment" that are Entry level. No one forces a guy/gal to stay at a low paying job when they should be getting an education and skill set training to move on to bigger and better employment. I don't see many slave labor jobs advertised and if a person cries about their job...I would have said....Get out and better yourself instead of whining. As a business owner I only have the responsibility to make a profit and keep my doors open and investors happy. I went from building a product at union labor rates in the US to building them overseas for a fraction of the cost, and guess what? I made a hefty profit for my patented products and sent MY kids to college. Ruger does what it does, and Colt can do what it does, but at the end of day it's good business sense to keep your costs down and price your product for your customers.
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The vast majority of Ruger's Prescott, AZ factory workers are temporary workers who make $10.00 hr. & no bennies. ::) That's why Ruger moved there: cheap labor. Now if you had a son or daughter in the workforce would you be more proud of them if they worked at Colt for a good salary & bennies or at Ruger for peanuts with a bunch of illegal aliens? Think about it. There is a huge social price to be paid for a Walmart World.
Have you ever been to the Prescott plant? I have several times. The plant manager (now retired) is a good friend and has taken me on several tours and I talked to many of the employees for a magazine article. Your statements are BS. Hiring illegals is a crime and Ruger is a gun manufacturing plant. Do you seriously believe they would hire illegals and risk huge fines or getting shut down?
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...Hiring illegals is a crime and Ruger is a gun manufacturing plant. Do you seriously believe they would hire illegals and risk huge fines or getting shut down?
When a company uses a temp agency the legal onus is upon them (the temp agency) and not the actual company. As well, the Obama Admin. stopped unannounced raids on employers. Even then, the fines are minuscule in proportion to money saved, ergo they wouldn't do it. That's why we have over 20 million of them here in the USA.
As well, do you really think a co. exec. would tell you the truth? Please.
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I think Pettifogger's question to you was and is a very important point!
"Have you ever been to the Prescott plant?"
My best,
Blair
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A person when looking at the wages paid in Prescott Az. Needs to look at the cost of living index as well.
If a person lives in San Jose California and works for $21.50 per hour, they can live just as well in Prescott making $14.00 per hour.
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My .02. I own about 8 late 3rd gen Colts, a couple of 1st gen Colts, 4 Cimarron/Ubertis (mostly Evil Roy) and a Pietta - all recent mfg. The fit/finish on all my Colts is better than the Ubertis/Pietta hands down. Better level of polishing, much better case hardening, better fit to frame without overhangs, etc. Now is that worth an extra $800-$900? I will say this, if I ever get another Cimarron it'll be with the "US Finish". I just can't stand the look of the chemical case hardening.
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I own a 2nd generation Colt in 45 colt and a 4th generation in 44/40, and my brother owns another 4th generation in 45 Colt, and I own also a UBERTI, and old one, and have tested several new ones.
there are big differences:
the finish is much, much better in the COLT, with a very deep blueing, umblemished, and a case hardening that is a real beauty, resembling real marble. The lock and internal parts are more durable in my opinion, and for me, it has been easier to obtein top accuracy with them.
the chambers in the COLT are fully uniform in diameter, but in my UBERTI go from 11,62 mm the smallest, to 11,67 the biggest.
the cost of a good finish is high, it can mean several hundred dollars in difference, and COLT´s polishing is about perfect, smooth as silk but without too much bright. That costs money and requires highly trained workers. The blueing is darker, durable. The italian blueing is less lasting, and lighter..
I was very happy with a clone that, in my opinion, was better and more interesting than the UBERTIs, the Taurus Gaucho, with let me get top accuracy with almost any load and has a very soft mechanism. Unfortunately , out of production. Such a good revolver. The transfer bar never gave me a trouble.
I had the opportunity to engrave UBERTI, COLT and PIETTA. The Pietta was allways soft, easy to engrave. The Ubertis and Colt had a real case hardened frame, tought on the surface as a diamond, not allowing engraving unless some unnealing was done to the frame.
a Colt and some replicas are collectable, but not Ubertis or Piettas. They are not an investment.
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I thought we was all brothers... In arms. :(
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I thought we was all brothers... In arms. :(
Some think they are more "brother" than others.......sad but that's human nature, right or wrong.
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I've got a Frontier Six Shooter from 1894 that just "feels" better than MOST reproductions. I've also got as ASM that feels exactly like an original Colt (of course, I've rebuilt it with mostly Colt parts). I just saw a 3rd Generation .45 in a local shop that, to be honest, is not that impressive. I just shot a 3rd Generation .44-40 yesterday that was very nice. I think, like most things, you have to look at the individual item and decide if the quality justifies the price. Thank goodness for the Italian replicas, though. Without them most of us would never have been able to get started shooting the old time guns. Some of them, especially the latest ones, seem to be of excellent quality, and will shoot better than 99% of the people shooting them can hold them.
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Some think they are more "brother" than others.......sad but that's human nature, right or wrong.
Well, you have just resumed the History of the World in one sentence. ;D
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How much you bet that the "New" Colt saa are just Uberti parts? i mean, several of you noticed changes in them. so what stops Colt from importing Uberti part kits and finishing them in house?
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Native shooter you are correct colt got us with their "second generation" black powder guns. the new colts more likely the not are only assembled here just based on past practices.
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No, they're not.
Colt has always produced in-house and can document the process.
That there have been things to notice is due to manufacturing and to eras of manufacturing - with 'some' SAAs not being as well finished or fitted as before or since.
The much-vaunted '2d Generation' guns were built on pre-WWII-era machinery and tooling that wasn't being updated as often as it should have, and didn't produce magnificent revolvers by a long shot - the '3d Generations' came to be as a result of the machinery and manufacturing process, but in the '80's strike years, 'everything' suffered.
Today's brand-new SAAs are well-fitted, well-finished and come from the factory with good triggers already in place
USFA billed '100% American Made' but built with Italian parts, and didn't say a thing - with their earlier ones still having the Italian proof marks present.
Scouts Out!
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PopCorn, Peanuts, CrackerJacks, Get yer PopCorn, Peanuts and CrackerJacks right here. Step right up folks .... PopCorn, Peanuts, CrackerJacks right here!!! HotDogs, Peanuts, PopCorn, CrackerJacks .... here they are ... get yer HotDogs before they thaw out .... Step Right up ................................
Coffinmaker
(What loves a good discussion)
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St George all facts indicate your statement flawed.
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Galen, St. George is speaking of Colt SAA and you are speaking of second gen. black powder colts....I think so....eh...never mind.....HEY COFFINMAKER! PASS THE POPCORN!!!
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In no way was I referencing the blackpowder line - I addressed 'that' years ago with Adler's articles on 'Real' Blackpowder Colts, but that's up in 'the Colt Forum' and you'd have to look it up, but I doubt you will, since the truth is inconvenient.
I've never seen those percussions referred to as 'saas' as in a slightly earlier thread, before now either - they're not.
My words stand on the 'actual' Colt 'Single Action Army'.
By the way, I'm partial to a blend of caramel corn, cheese corn and white popcorn called the 'Chicago Mix', so if you've got some...
Vaya con Dios - acaso...
Scouts Out!
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Ewe, naw you can have that caramel corn. I agree on the SAA, Colt seems to be making the best now as ever, now if they would just make more of them.
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No, they're not.
Colt has always produced in-house and can document the process.
That there have been things to notice is due to manufacturing and to eras of manufacturing - with 'some' SAAs not being as well finished or fitted as before or since.
The much-vaunted '2d Generation' guns were built on pre-WWII-era machinery and tooling that wasn't being updated as often as it should have, and didn't produce magnificent revolvers by a long shot - the '3d Generations' came to be as a result of the machinery and manufacturing process, but in the '80's strike years, 'everything' suffered.
Today's brand-new SAAs are well-fitted, well-finished and come from the factory with good triggers already in place
USFA billed '100% American Made' but built with Italian parts, and didn't say a thing - with their earlier ones still having the Italian proof marks present.
Scouts Out!
In the very beginning of USFA when they where USPt.FA is true. But, soon after that everything, 100 %, was made in the US.
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I think new US based manufacturers need to be careful when pricing these guns, if they try to price them at near Colt SAA levels, they are going to fail simply because people will think (no judgement, just fact) that if they are going to spend that kind of money, I might as well buy a real Colt. USFA did well when they were several hundred dollars below a Colt with superior quality as they built their brand, but, they let production costs escalate and then priced their product near what a new Colt commanded. This caused their sales to slow and the rest is history. If the Italians who have similar production costs, can make good SAA replicas at a decent price, then the US manufacturers should incorporate those efficiencies to keep costs lower and be more competitive. I hope one rises like Standard, but I think their price point will not allow them to succeed.....I hope I am wrong.
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If the Italians who have similar production costs, can make good SAA replicas at a decent price, then the US manufacturers should incorporate those efficiencies to keep costs lower and be more competitive. I hope one rises like Standard, but I think their price point will not allow them to succeed.....I hope I am wrong.
I've said this for a long time and Colt should be the first in line. With all the financial problems they've had and look at all the sales they loose to other people making their designs.
Even if Colt was double or three times what a Uberti is they would probably sell a ton of them if they were available....but they are about four times the cost and you can't even get one if you want to buy it.
I would like to buy a brand new black powder frame now, one of Colts cataloged items but dealers just laugh when I ask them how I could order it. Colt says it's not a custom item and to have a dealer order it and the dealers say it does no good to order it because they already have tons of other items on order that never show up.
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Unobtanium, ::) I had a standing order till my FFL retired and sold the Store
Being challenged & beaten by it's competitors and Copies , COLT only has it's hollowed Brand left really...
In a generation or two, the Millenniums will have lost it to the ages.... so sad
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Here is how it works. Coltistas worship at the feet of the Prancing Horse. Coltistas will tell you in no uncertain terms, the Colt SA is the finest SA on the planet. Do NOT ATTEMPT to speak otherwise. You will be SHOUTED down. Loudly. Never mind that view is KRAP.
COLT KNOWS for a fact, Coltistas will buy everything Colt makes, whatever they make, whenever they make it. Good or bad. There is basically no attention paid to what orders are do where. There are only two, sometimes three guys at Colt assembling SAs. That's it. They assemble whatever comes down the line, then they ship guns to their prime dealers. The Coltistas champion those guns no matter what they are. Colt doesn't care they aren't making enough guns. They have other irons in the fire. And they are going broke. Slowly dying. Believe it.
Colt single action guns have all the same problems the other makers of SAs have for the CAS market. Over Sprung, out of time, poor fit of action parts and take just as much work to make user friendly as Uberti. Colt knows most of the Coltistas will never play with their guns. They see their guns as a piece of "history." That's BUNK. Nothing more than a newly built SA. THAT'S IT.
The best value for dollar in a CAS gun today is a Pietta built GW II. You can get a pair for the price of a Colt. I personally hate the term "CLONE." (Have I said that before??). The replicas aren't clones. They're reproductions. Replicas. Copies. By in Large, better made than Colt guns. Considering the HUGE selection available in reproductions from the established manufacturers, introducing a new copy of the SAA, priced well out of the competitive range, is a fools errand.
Soap Box Mode off. Back to our regularly scheduled programming ::)
Coffinmaker
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Coffin Maker, Pretty much sums it up .....
I expect , COLT goes the way of Winchester ...Brand owned by Olin, licensed to Browning, in turn farmed out to Miroku .
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That's why Rugers are cheap as most of their Prescott labor force are temp workers who earn $10.50 hr. & no bennies. Sort of puts Ruger in a different light. ::)
What does Prescott have to do with revolvers? The Ruger revolvers are made in New Hampshire.
wM1
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What does Prescott have to do with revolvers? The Ruger revolvers are made in New Hampshire.
wM1
I wondered the same thing, the couple times I had to contact them about a revolver part or repair I was directed to New Hampshire.
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I think Colt is on borrowed time and should have moved their operations completely out of Connecticut to a place like Texas, SC, Florida or Georgia. The Colt SAA is not a super complex gun to make with modern machinery and methods, the Italians who have similar labor costs, can export it to us and retail it far below what Colt wants to charge. Colt if they got out of the Northeast could cut costs to be competitive, but as you have said, they have other fish to fry. I hope another US company makes a replica, but they will have to price it between the Colt and the imports.
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IMO if/when Colt goes down it's at least partly their own fault for not trying harder. They have the designs and the name to go with it and let others have the market. Colt acts like they don't even care. Poor way to run a business when you need the money which apparently they do.
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IMO if/when Colt goes down it's at least partly their own fault for not trying harder. They have the designs and the name to go with it and let others have the market. Colt acts like they don't even care. Poor way to run a business when you need the money which apparently they do.
I completely agree, Colt is not making very wise moves in the market. If they wanted to they could own the Colt SAA market and the imports would be struggling to compete, but no, they don't want to succeed.
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As far as I can ascertain ..they didn't go into the competition ....to replace the Beretta M9
U.S. Army announced that SIG Sauer will be the next supplier of pistols for the United States military.
The 10-year contract for the Sig Sauer is worth $580 million and will include both full-size and compact models.
Glock was the 1st also ran , Ruger & S&W followed ....
When you also include the ammunition as part of the contract, its value is around $1.2 billion.
COLT never had a chance :(
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As far as I can ascertain ..they didn't go into the competition ....to replace the Beretta M9
U.S. Army announced that SIG Sauer will be the next supplier of pistols for the United States military.
The 10-year contract for the Sig Sauer is worth $580 million and will include both full-size and compact models.
Glock was the 1st also ran , Ruger & S&W followed ....
When you also include the ammunition as part of the contract, its value is around $1.2 billion.
COLT never had a chance :(
Colt didn't even try, plus they stay in a union controlled Northeastern state that is not helping them turn a profit.
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They are very busy making rifles and also FN licensed machine guns for the Us government and several police departments..their 1911 line Is also selling well for the discriminating customer.
The SAA market is not so big and they still make the 1873 for love and prestige rather than for money. The forged American steel and finish, and the case hardening ( by Turn Bull) and extremely well made hand polishing , with unblemished surfaces with just the rigth amount of gloss, with a very deep blueing, plus higher labor costs in the US give no margin to lowerring prices.
It is a 100% USA made product manufactured by skilled and well paid American workers. I have visited the factory in West Hartford, Conn ticut, recently, and I can testify that.
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They are very busy making rifles and also FN licensed machine guns for the Us government and several police departments..their 1911 line Is also selling well for the discriminating customer.
The SAA market is not so big and they still make the 1873 for love and prestige rather than for money. The forged American steel and finish, and the case hardening ( by Turn Bull) and extremely well made hand polishing , with unblemished surfaces with just the rigth amount of gloss, with a very deep blueing, plus higher labor costs in the US give no margin to lowerring prices.
It is a 100% USA made product manufactured by skilled and well paid American workers. I have visited the factory in West Hartford, Conn ticut, recently, and I can testify that.
Until recently, I would not say Colt made SAAs that were well finished and had over sprung and rough parts in them because they relied on people wanting their guns because of the pony, and not because it was anything other than a collector's item. They even had a sticker warning you it would reduce its value to shoot it. Glad they have made and improvement, but they still are over priced for some kind of mystique and US manufacturing.
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I can't agree. I have owned Colts from different years of production during the last 20 years in several calibers....45 Colt..38 spl and 44/40....now I have a third generation from 1978 and two recently manufactured revolvers from the custom shop.
The blueing has allaways being deeper and almost perfect in polishing and sanding as compared to the really poor blueing and casehardening in italian revolvers...accuracy in my experience has been more consistent in the Colts,,thanks to the zero differences among chambers in the same cilinder and thanks to an adequate diameter. I don't say they' re more accurate...I just say they are consistent, regular in results. I can't say the same about Uberti.
I don't have much appreciation for Italian replicas...I just don't trust their classic réplicas ..in my opinion allways inferior in accuracy results to the original XIX century guns, and I am not the only one saying that. I prefer German, Spanish, American or Belgian replicas in general. Better steel in my opinion.
And in general, a better resale price, as Italian replicas have no collector value, and will never have. They' re just shooters.
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I can't agree. I have owned Colts from different years of production during the last 20 years in several calibers....45 Colt..38 spl and 44/40....now I have a third generation from 1978 and two recently manufactured revolvers from the custom shop.
The blueing has allaways being deeper and almost perfect in polishing and sanding as compared to the really poor blueing and casehardening in italian revolvers...accuracy in my experience has been more consistent in the Colts,,thanks to the zero differences among chambers in the same cilinder and thanks to an adequate diameter. I don't say they' re more accurate...I just say they are consistent, regular in results. I can't say the same about Uberti.
I don't have much appreciation for Italian replicas...I just don't trust their classic réplicas ..in my opinion allways inferior in accuracy results to the original XIX century guns, and I am not the only one saying that. I prefer German, Spanish, American or Belgian replicas in general. Better steel in my opinion.
And in general, a better resale price, as Italian replicas have no collector value, and will never have. They' re just shooters.
More perception than reality....with respect.
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Colt has always produced in-house and can document the process.
No they aren't and haven't been in over a century. Colt doesn't own the forging tools to make the frame as a start.
The "in house" bunk never was...if anything USFA should have clued the unwashed masses into that marketing gig.
No one in their right mind would make "every thing in house". No one does. It is why the gun industry is and always has been a "cottage industry".
"Let us give a hearty round of applause to Uberti and Pietta."
Great thread!
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Not being allowed to own a cartridge handgun means that my interest in this topic is purely academic.
I am interested in the so called "Cimarron US finish". Can I ask what this is, who does the finishing and how much extra does it cost?
Chance
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I am interested in the so called "Cimarron US finish". Can I ask what this is, who does the finishing and how much extra does it cost?
US finished blue and true case colors is $300 additional. Nickel is $260 by their price list. Who does it? That is another question entirely. Ford did the nickel for a while last I asked not sure if they do it now. Various jobbers have done the blue and case. Turnbull wants $800 to do it. So suspect it aint them :)
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Partially correct. :)
U.S. Finish used to be guns disassembled, frames sent to Turnbull. Some had the blued parts Carbonna Blued by Turnbull. That was an option, not all U.S. Finish guns had it. A good while back Cimarron switched to Classic Guns for their bonemeal casecolor needs. The blue on the guns remains Uberti. Some U.S. finish guns, particularly U.S. Cavalry, have Uberti Charcoal Blue.
As for nickle, it is still Ford for stuff they need to send out. Uberti does the nickle on the U.S. Scout version of the Cavalry, plus assorted other guns. Remingtons, some conversions, etc.
Chance, to answer your "what is it" question directly, it is having the frame and hammer sent out to be color case-hardened by the bonemeal charcoal method, which takes expertise but is true to the original design when it was done to strengthen the outer few thousandths of the metal. Today's metals are hard enough to not need it, but it looks "right" and the colors are better and more durable than the "corner-cutting" way the Italians do it.
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I like the details. Thanks.
Here is a look at them...
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nZml2GfF_ts/Wz0fHcwlvFI/AAAAAAAAuUk/oQtiPSXboY0vFp_HK_R78n-5pBc1A0qsACLcBGAs/s1600/DSC09183.JPG)
Left to right and recent cost @ purchase. USFA Rodeo matte blue. DGW Uberti BP frame this year's production blue and case typical finish. USFA, Premium grade gun, Turnbul case colors, typical hot blue. Cimarron Uberti, very recent production, typical case and blue. USFA, BP frame, Turnbull case colors and their carbona Prewar blue.