Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => 1860 Henry => Topic started by: Slowhand Bob on January 20, 2014, 08:00:56 AM
-
My question is why no Henrys in 44spec? Not being a gunsmith, It leaves me wondering why the big deal just making a few Henrys in .44spec while they are being produced at the factory? A one step process that just might sell as many or more guns than the .45Colt version has. The Colt version required a whole new barrel reaming/rifling process while in my mind the 44spec would be just a matter of swapping the chamber reamer for running off a few guns each year??? Though I am sure it is always the same small group hollering for a .44 straight walled Henry, I do think it would equal the small shooter group that was happy with the .45. Converting from 44-40 to 44spec is an expensive deal, after the fact, but nothing as a part of the manufacturing process.
-
Uberti's done some, Wolf Niederastroth has one...
They are rare though, not to many made it to this side of the pond.
I saw one several years ago, Though I can say with any certainty it was a Factory 44 Spc'l.
Seem to remember Happy Trails , might have made some :-\
.
-
Mainly because the .44 Special is not popular with CAS shooters. Uberti made some 66s and a few 73s in .44 Special. They sell like buffalo chips. Kind of interesting but no one really wants one. Why would they take an unpopular caliber and put it into an extremely limited production gun like the Henry?
-
Well, I gotta disagree with Pettifogger. I think they would sell all the .44 Spcl Henrys they made. But they can't keep up with the backorders for .44-40 and .45 Henrys as it is. Lack of capacity.
-
All it requires is using a different reamer in the process for X-number of barrels that are already rifled for the .44 caliber. I would even bet that a numbers cruncher would tell you that the actual cost per barrel is lower in 44special than either the 44W or the 45C. Popularity, try a run of X(for whatever) and see how quickly they sell?? As we have seen several times over recent years, new models seem to somehow get introduced regardless of current inventory situations. It has even happened with a couple of models that some said would never materialize! And in this case we are not even talking about developing so much as one new part...
-
Well, I gotta disagree with Pettifogger. I think they would sell all the .44 Spcl Henrys they made. But they can't keep up with the backorders for .44-40 and .45 Henrys as it is. Lack of capacity.
I shoot a 44 Spcl 73 and I like it just fine.
-
I shoot a 44 Spcl 73 and I like it just fine.
That's great. Shoot what you like. However, the fact is that the .44 Special simply is not very popular. Cimmarron had a whole rack of 66s in .44 Special at EOT a few years ago. Marked down substantially to try and move them.
-
I bought a model 66 back in 2008 in 44 special to match with my open tops. it was like finding a needle in a hay stack. many cas shooters asked me if I had bumped my head for wanting that caliber.
-
44 special may not be popular in SASS but I see quite a few shooters using it in NCOWS, particularly open top shooters and they are the very ones likely using a 66 or Henry rifle.
I'd say in a Henry it would probably go over fairly well. At least well enough to make a run of them.
-
That's great. Shoot what you like. However, the fact is that the .44 Special simply is not very popular. Cimmarron had a whole rack of 66s in .44 Special at EOT a few years ago. Marked down substantially to try and move them.
Thanks, I suppose if I did what was popular, I'd be using Rugers in 38 Spc'l too....
Different strokes for different folks :)
44 special may not be popular in SASS but I see quite a few shooters using it in NCOWS, particularly open top shooters and they are the very ones likely using a 66 or Henry rifle.
I'd say in a Henry it would probably go over fairly well. At least well enough to make a run of them.
exactly
-
Sierra Sue and I shoot .44 special in both our '66's to match our R&M conversions or Open Tops. But we shoot NCOWS. They are very hard to find, took seems like forever to find her '66 short rifle and they usually fetch a premium price.
I believe that a Henry, '66 or '73 in .44 special would sell as long as the market wasn't flooded with them. At present it seems to be feast or famine with new production.
Also with a change of carrier .44 Russian could be shot in them or .44 Colt with little modification..
JW
-
Buy a 44 WCF and have it re-chambered. It would probably be cheaper and much quicker and easier to do than buying one originally chambered in 44 Special. As was said, they command a premium price and are as scarce as hen's teeth. But, the 44 WCF's aren't.
This is what I did when I re-configured my Henry to shoot a heeled bullet. It was originally a 44 WCF. I bought a 45 cal barrel and had it re-chambered for my 44 Henry CF cartridge.
-
I do have an old Uberti 44W Henry and was even talking with a gunsmith bout sleeving the chamber to 44spec when he up and retired. Now I would really prefer to keep it, as is, even if just as a safe queen. I would bet a dollar to a doughnut that a run of 20" barl 44sp would sell like hot cakes to some of the guys who have bought the Uberti 44 conversions over the years. I do have an old/uggerly '73 chambered fer 45 that I use with Kirst Conversions BUT the 44-40 is a mighty un-Henry round to pair up with my cap and ball pistols, not even taking into account the wasted powder! Pre 1873 pistoleers and lever-gun men were not wart hogs and a few even clung to their older calibers for years after the new fangled mag-like 44-40s and 45Colts. I even think that after the '73 caliber debute the cowboys mostly discarded the concept of two guns in one caliber, with a slight nod to the 44-40 added to some pistol line ups. I can not cozy up to the idea of using 45special brass in rifles that chank them all over the place.
-
Well by golly Bob,
Being just a little cantankerous aren't ya!! Well, actually I have to agree with ya. I really really wanted Uberti to build some .44 Special Henry rifles. Hey, just one if I could have had it. But, no such luck. I do remember the trouble Cimarron had selling a batch of '66s they had some years back. They moved real slow even when Cimarron had them at "give away" prices.
I've never been a believer in "Period Correct" crap. Once in a while however, I do get a wild hair. I wanted a cartridge combination close to the original .44 Henry Flat and settled on the Cowboy 45 Special case. Couple of .45 Schofield chambered Open Tops and a Henry with a cartridge stop and presto! I was in business. Not satisfied though. Nope, not me. Then the special carriers came out for C45S and they work just fine with .44 Russian. Already had .44 Colt cylinders and barrels for my Open Tops and went looking hard for a '66 (remember Cimarron?). Finally managed to find a '66 and darned if the seller didn't throw in a poop load of .44 Russian brass he couldn't shoot in it, but I could. Now I have a pair of '72 Open Top pistols and a '66 that I can shoot "close" to original cartridges in. I still don't have a Henry chambered in .44 Special.
Now where was I going with all this, you want to know.
Well, there are TWO of us that want a .44 Special Henry. Probably not many more but at least TWO of us ;D
Coffinmaker
-
I'd be # 3 ... course I have 4 Henry's, but not one in 44 Spec'l :)
-
Not sure what will ever materialize from my frustrated dreams (UHHHH, the ones about guns) but I do have two of the short carriers hidden for possible future use. One is the '66/'73 version and the other is a Henry version carrier. I have pretty much decided that the state of affairs with the 45special round are just not conducive to my using them in rifles, so my use of them will be limited to revolvers, where none are ever lost. Perhaps one day one of my great grandchildren will find these pristine unused carriers tucked in the back of a drawer and be able to sell them as antiques on EBay for a million dollars each, which will be about $130 based against todays dollar rates! Course by then they will be able to print them out of some new super plastic that is stronger than any current steel!
-
Four now.
I came into this game with a .44 mag Vaquero and a B-92, using .44 Spl. in both. Then it became a two-gun game and I bought another Vaquero in .44 mag.
I've got a Henry in 44-40, but think I'd be happier if it was in .44 Spl. or Russian. A '66 or '73 in .44 Spl.? You bet!
Now where was I going with all this, you want to know.
Well, there are TWO of us that want a .44 Special Henry. Probably not many more but at least TWO of us ;D
Coffinmaker
-
Well now ...... Just 996 more folks and we'll have enough for a run ;D
Coffinmaker
-
Four now.
I came into this game with a .44 mag Vaquero and a B-92, using .44 Spl. in both. Then it became a two-gun game and I bought another Vaquero in .44 mag.
I've got a Henry in 44-40, but think I'd be happier if it was in .44 Spl. or Russian. A '66 or '73 in .44 Spl.? You bet!
I've seen some '73s in 44 mag at Guns America:
Stoeger 1873 44 Mag (http://www.gunsamerica.com/974510437/Stoeger_1873_44Mag.htm)
Uberti 1873 Carbine 44 Mag (http://www.gunsamerica.com/948162742/Uberti_1873_Carbine_19_inch_44_mag_341260.htm)
Uberti 1873 Carbine 44 Mag (http://www.gunsamerica.com/980914949/Uberti_1873_Carbine_19_44_Mag_Blue_34126.htm)
-
The 44 Special is very similar to the 44 Henry round. Much closer than the 44-40. Since the 44-40 is not made in the Uberti Open Top 71-72, a Henry in 44 Special would be a good match. I also heard they made a few.
-
Love my '73 .44spl and 1872's in .44spl. Great for sass shooting and hog hunting!
-
I have a 73 in 44sp and also shoot 44sp in my opentop and 1860 Richards2.
would by a 66 if I could find one.
Also have all modles in 44WCF.
-
I got a pair of Richards Type IIs and a pair of New Vaqueros in 44Spl. I'd certainly be a candiddate for a rifle, either 66' or 73' in the caliber.
-
I don't have either a '66 or a '73, but I am curious about .44 special and BP, which I presume those of you who have open tops are shooting. I'd heard straight walled cartridges like .44 mag have a blow-by issue when using BP that makes them hard to clean. To those who are shooting it, in your experience, does a .44 special BP round have the same problem?
-
Depends on what you men by "clean." Clean to me means ready to reload, stains and all. I'm not real big on "new looking" cases. Straight walled cases clean up the same with BP whether they seal in the chamber or not. Wash em, dry em, tumble em, reload em. No special steps required.
Coffinmaker
-
Coffinmaker, thanks for answering the question I did ask about .44 cases. I misworded my question.
I meant to ask about the practicality of a straightwall BP cartridge like the .44 special being shot in a lever gun during competition. I'd heard (mostly from people who don't like BP) that the blowby from a BP straightwall cartridge (like the .44 special) into the lever rifle was substantial so the rifle requried much more thorough cleaning that a BP 44/40 gun, and that the gun was far more likely to foul to the point that it didn't run well in a match. Since people on this thread actually like using BP .44 specials, I thought I'd get good firsthand info asking in this thread.
(I don't actually have a Henry, I have a .44 Marlin I want to try BP in, and I'm hoping the info would be helpful to prospective .44 special Henry users as well as to me - hopefully this isn't going off topic.)
-
I've shot a lot of BP rounds in my 44 Spcl 1866. Yes, they do leave a lot of fouling in the carrier area due to the thick walled cases. I used full cases of FFFg BP and even tried 777 to get the most power, and the largest bullets I could find (255gr RNFP sized .430) to try to get a good seal, and tried neck-sizing only, but still plenty of soot. I did not try annealing the cases, as the fouling issue was really not that big a deal to me. It never hung up shooting a stage. On low humidity days the carrier would sometimes get sticky as I levered the rifle at the unloading table. A quick spritz of either moosemilk or just a mist of plain water would free it up again. Usually only had to do that once. So yeah, it took more time and Q-tips to clean afterward and was a bit messier. I only took it apart once every few years and the innards would be pretty gunky but still working fine.
These days I have rifles in a variety of calibers, and yes indeed my 32-20 and 44-40 '73's seal the chamber much better but I do not hesitate to shoot BP in the 45LC or .357 '73's either.
-
Hessssssss Back ......... ;D
Last post, more clarification. I'm like Abilene, I shoot the smoky stuff in everything. .45 Colt, .44 Spl/Russian, .38Spl, everything but bottle neck cases. I don't own a 44-40 or 38-40.
I worked on CAS guns almost exclusively of 16+ years. The problems you speak of, with straight wall cases and BP are very real. Straight wall cases blow-by much more than bottle neck cases no matter what you do. You'll wind up with more crud back in the action than with bottle neck cases. But, and it's a big BUT, it isn't enough to be a deal breaker. Just a nuisance. The carrier block will gum up and get sticky, but a little squirt of water or moose milk will free it up to keep shooting. I shoot C45S cases in .45 Colt guns and .44 Russian cases in .44 Special guns. Clean-up is a snap regardless. Little hot water with a drop of Dawn and tour gold. An equal parts mix of Murphy's Oil Soap, Hydrogen Peroxide and Denatured Alcohol (Moose Milk) for the field will work wonders. Don't let a little blow-by bother ya.
Coffinmaker
-
Thanks, both, for the info. I find it encouraging. (Too bad for the guys I shoot with who don't like the smell of brimstone... ;D)
-
There is one other concern with BP.... at least for me ....when I'm Done I crave BBQ :)
I used to shoot with the Palmetto Muzzle Loaders , after a day of shooting,
We'd go to a place to get a pulled pork wild boar BBQ sandwich w/ homemade Cole slaw.
Best dam sandwich ;D I was totally addicted, now when I shoot BP.... I think BBQ :) it's like Pavlov's Dog.
-
Oh My Yessssssssss, But,
It's a short rack of ribs, well slathered with sauce, coleslaw with vinegar,oil & spices with Texas Toast? Oh Yum!!!!
Coffinmaker
-
We're having BBQ catered to our next shoot, for some reason it does make the day that much nicer.
-
I too am a fan, started with a Colt New Frontier in .44 special and then a 1894/1994 Winchester big loop Wrangler in .44 mag and I was off and running. I did get a 1873 used for 800, but never saw the 1866 "deals" must have been sleeping I guess. Anyways, I like looking like the "Duke" shooting and when I got the latest Winchester 92 commemorative I also purchased what I thought would be a replacement barrel in .44 mag. But I had a gunsmith in WPB who took my JW 92 and "reamed" it with a .308 and now it sho0ots both .44 spcl as well as .44-40. Now before the rest of you go crazy on me for ruining the value, I don't really want to shoot anything else except a long 1873 like Jimmy Stewart and am thinking of selling my 1873 carbine to get the current Winchester remake by Moriku(SP?) in .44-40 and have the same thing done to it. I like both .44 spcl and magnums and we do go hog hunting down here in FL. So if I ever do get enough to afford a Henry by Henry, I will probably do the same thing to it and then call it a day, although I wouldn't mind a 1886, but not in .44 spcl!
-
Nimble Fingers,
I don't understand your comment about the .308 reamer. At any rate, there is no chamber possible that can properly chamber both 44 Spcl and 44-40. It is going to be hard on brass and likely not too accurate. I am interested in what sort of results you get from shooting both those calibers in that gun. There was a guy on here a few years back that said he shot 44 Russians in his 44-40 Henry (with an unaltered chamber and a custom carrier block for the short rounds, I believe). In that case, the Russians were short enough to fit in the 44-40 chamber and fire although it bulged the brass.
The 1886 is only chambered in rifle calibers. 45-70, for example.
edit: by looking at .308 specs, I guess the 'smith was basically pushing the shoulder of the 44-40 chamber far enough forward to allow the 44 Spcl to chamber. The 44 Spcl will still rattle around in that big chamber.
-
I shoot a 66 in 44 special.
And two Open Tops in 44 Special.
I would buy a Henry in 44 special in a Flat Second !
I have been trying to get a Smith to Covert a 44/40 for years with No luck yet .