Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Spencer Shooting Society => Topic started by: Backstrap Bill on October 16, 2005, 11:06:25 AM
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Howdy,
I have ordered a 56-50 Spencer from Cimarron. Been reading the posts, lots of good information there.
If you had a new Spencer in 56-50, want to shoot it with black powder, what bullet, etc. wouldl you suggest for a starting load?
Also, anything quirky about the gun that needs to be addressed before shooting (rough trigger/action, etc).
Thankee much, Backstrap Bill
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I am not the expert but will try to give you general amount to info that I acquired to get where I am at with my Taylor 56/50 Spencer.
Read most of the posts below for all and more detail. Price will as alway be different.
Brass -- Starline brass only or mainly for the Armisport Spencer ~$80+ for 100 -- Buffalo Arm, Midway probably orthers
Bullet Molds -- several available, Lyman 515139 --330grain, Rapine 350 gr made for the Armisport Spencer $99 (I called), Buffalo Arm precast and molds, Taylor, I cut a Lee 515-450 down to ~350 grains because I like the pointier flat nose design on it. Romano? maker of the $3000 Spencer also has a mold for the 56/50
Dies Only one I know of is the Lyman 56/50 ~ $40+ - $60 -- Buffalo Arm, Midway, Taylor Arm. These are the one I found but probably orthers maybe C-H dies also
Bullet sizer -- the barrel are lands 0.504 to groove 0.512 so most of us size to 0.512. Lyman 0.512 -- 450 die ~ $18 - $20 or Lee custom purchased sizer -- $25
Shellholder -- Lyman X-22 or (common one used for 50 cal. blackpowder casings) don't know Lee # at this time.
Hope this helps your start.
Black River Smith
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Where to do go to get custom Lee sizers?
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Also, if you are using the more pointed bullets based off the of the modified Lee mould (450gr vs. 500gr), what do you seat at for an OAL?
What does the mould look like from number of groves and such?
And again...who did you order your custom Lee sizer die from?
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Lee sizer is from Lee directly. Call and ask for one to be made up. A friend bought one, I did not. Even though I really like Lee equipment and pan lube, I went with the Lyman because it was readily available. I will still pan lube and then push in the Lyman, so far I tried a few and it seems to work, just not as fast. I do prefer the bottom/base push.
As far the mold. I started with the 450gr with the small metplat (0.16"). Yes it is because it is more traditional.
I cut the bottom and one grease groove off. This leaves two grooves and I shoot for a bullet length of 0.855" with a slight bevel. I am working off the Starline suggestion of 0.375" insertion into the casing. Crimp over the shoulder/first guide ring just like the original Win 44/40 loaders do. This should result in an OAL of ~1.63" that sits on the powder and will not slide out. These are my beliefs/attempts, without the shellholder I have not been able to make any as of yet. I did make a 0.25" metplat from this mold but the final weight comes out to ~370 grs. I may try for a 3/16" (0.1875) flat but really not enough differences for the effort.
This will only be loaded with BP.
Hope this answers your questions and give you some ideas. See my posting to 31 in the Length of Cartridge posting, I detail the numbers alittle bit better there.
editted:
Black River Smith
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I keep hearing this argument, using the .30-30. I don't like it. lay 2 .30-30s nose to tail and see where the nose of the bullet is. Thats how they lay in the tube, and how the magazine spring forces them. Now try it with most any straight walled case. It ain't the same. I've seen 2 magazine detonations, both with factory .38 spcls RNs. Left wood chunks in mens hands. And that Spencer magazine is right against your cheek. IMHO, no offence, have a cup of coffee on me . . .
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Bit of sad news...my spencer carbine was sent to the WRONG ADDRESS!!! My FFL is pissed at Taylors and Taylors is the only one that can redirect the rifle to the propper address...
I should have requested a shipping/tracking number a while ago...now its friday and I am still spencerless.
man, what a nightmare...
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Here is what happened.
The FFL paperwork had the correct address and the correct contact info.
They had the right address on the booking system when Taylors processed the order.
But, their shipping screwed the pooch BAD and send the delivery to parts unknown.
Now, from what I am being told, UPS has to ship my carbine BACK to Taylors and then have them RESHIP it.
Taylors is not willing to pay for the freight both ways again...from the smell of it.
(UPS is also being dicks about this...they won't even let my FFL drive the 3 miles to the UPS place and pick it up in person)
What a nightmare... I am hoping for either Taylors to live up to their customer service commitment, or, for UPS to be willing to handle the changes to the shipping address.
We shall see...the saga continues...
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Pard,
Give me yor dealers name and where it was to be shipped. I will call Tammy at Taylor's and try to get it straightened out.
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I am waiting to hear back this afternoon...(or Tuesday)
It could be that all someone has to do is place a phone call...we shall see.
My FFL is just as eager to get this resolved. (he is out the $$$, I have spent one dime on it yet)
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What does this mean in UPS?
"A DELIVERY CHANGE REQUEST FOR THIS PACKAGE WILL BE PROCESSED;THE RECEIVER REQUESTED THE PACKAGE BE DELIVERED TO AN ALTERNATE ADDRESS"
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;D Yipee skippie, my Spencer 56-50 arrived today. I had some time to look it over between Trick-or-Treaters. I have to say that I got quite a treat with this little carbine. Guess I'd better get busy & order brass and a mould. What do you think the whitetails are gonna think of those 51 cal slugs next fall?
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I am now being told that it will be shipped out tomorrow...finally!!!
I'll post an update after I take receivership of the carbine...
What a nightmare...I sure hope it shoots better than it ships!!!
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IT DOES !!!!!!! <G>
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Today should be the day...keeping my fingers crossed...
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Well, got al the ingredients together.
Loaded 49 rounds. Imagine this, I stopped loading cases when the powder measure went dry. I ended up with 7 rows of 7 cartridges which translates to 7 full loadings of the carbine. Is that eerie or what??
Lorenzo Dow & I will run some black powder & lead through the carbine on Veterans Day.
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Well, I am a Spencer veteran now. Lorenzo Dow & I shot 49 rounds, black powder of course. Ranges were 25 to 200 yards. The sight on the carbine ain't that great, but we were able to fire 7 shot groups of around 5" with several doubles and no fliers. Swabbed the barrel after each 7-shot string. What fun. I ain't gonna shoot it again until my 350T Rapine mould arrives & I make some bullets. We were shooting Buffalo Arms Co, 300 gr 20:1, SPG lubed, Elephant 1F (full case) & Federal magnum large rifle primer. No leading at all, period, zippo. We did experience some feeding problems as predicted by other SSS members when usind soft bullets. I think Lorenzo is gonna get a Spencer ordered today...
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Howdy,
This 56-50 project is a fun one. ;D Hear's an update & lessons learned. Had to relieve the under side of the hammer, it was contacting the frame preventing the firing pin from full motion & peening a spot on the frame, polished & cold blued the areas & I only know they are there because I know where to look.
Had to procure an over-sized chamfering tool for the case mouths, Lyman makes it.
My RCBS case trimmer won't handle the rims nor the diameter of the mouths. RCBS said their original hand-crank trimmer, model 9360, could be made to work with a conversion kit they sell. Got a trimmer on eBay & will get the 50+ conversion kit ordered next week.
Dillon says I cannot use any of their presses for this cartridge, rim size is too large. Loading is a single stage press proposition. The Lyman dies I purchased are working well.
Got my 512-350-T mould from Rapine last week. 2 cavity, aluminum block, very good handles (easy to grip w/o hand fatigue), LARGE grease groove. Casted bullets from Lyman No. 2, 20:1, wheel weights, radioisotope container lead (virgin lead + 4% antimony), made 20 of each. Weight is right around 360, lubed weight is 3 gr more (big lube groove). Sized them to .512 as were dropping from mould @ .513 - .514.
Had to modify the Lyman # 141 top punch recommended by Rapine, it was cutting into the bullet noses. Used the old epoxy trick & now it works great.
Made a case holder for annealing chucked into my cordless drill. The Starline brass is very hard, got blow back all the way to the rims on first firing.
Used some Elephant 1F for first firing with the 20:1, SPG lubed 300 gr. bullets I to from Buffalo Arms. If I wiped the bore after each string of 7 shots, there was no leading. With proper light conditions, I was able to hold 3" 7 shot groups @ 100 yards.
Sights on the gun are not conducive to accurate shooting. Best sight picture is bottom notch on the raised long-range sight, hits about 8" high @ 100 yards with a bottom hold. Might replace or rework them at some point.
Next steps:
Anneal the brass.
Try with Schuetzen and Swiss 2F, can't get Elephant 2F any more as what was left of Elephant powder is disappearing fast. Won't mess with Goex at all, it has alwlays caused excessive fouling in my opinion.
Trim the brass.
See which alloy works best.
Get a second set of main springs & work them down. Trigger return alone has a 10 lb pull!
Maybe mill a slot into the front sight w/hole for roll pin. Maybe get a ladder sight from Smith Enterprises.
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Bill: Thanks for the clinic on the ArmiPosrt Spencers. I hope to join the ranks of Spencer shooters soon, am very pleased to hear you're getting good accuracy from yours -- certainly adequate for deer hunting. Any guess what velocity you are getting with your 1F Elephant loads?
Bill
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I haven't put the 56-50 over the chronograph yet. I have been waiting for the Rapine mould to arrive. Bullets I was able to get from Buffalo Arms were only 300, the Rapine 512-350-T is dropping bullets in the 360-365 range, depending on the alloy. I was using the 1F to fire form the brass to my chamber. All future load development will be done with 2 or 3 F powders & the Rapine bullet.
You are correct in that I plan to shoot deer with the Spencer carbine. I generally can get to w/in 50 yards of whitetail, took 2 at under 25 yards this yeqar. No brag, just fact. So, I am not too concerned about trajectory with the Spencer. Energy will be just fine to "tube" a whitetail inside of 50 yards, especially if I use a bullet between 20:1 and Lyman No. 2 to promote penetration over expansion. I think a .512 hole will be enough w/o wanting more expansion, based on past performance with muzzle loaders and such.
I expect to get some chronographing done in January. Stay tuned.
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I received the conversion kit for the RCBS 9369 case trimmer.
The kit came in aRCBS plastic die box. It consists of a parts list for the trimmer, a collet large enough for the 56-50 rim, a 50 cal pilot, a new cutter big enough to handle anything up to about .60", and new screws to attach the collet holder to the trimmer base.
Works great!!
I have loaded annealed & trimmed cases with 35 gr. by volume of Scheutzen 2F & bullets of 4 different alloys, all lubed with SPG & sized .512". Bullet loaded is the Rapine 350-T. Alloys are: Lyman No. 2, 20:1, wheel weights, and radio-isotope container (pure led + 2% antimony - softer than 20:1).
I'll be firing these over the chrono the week of January 14. I'll post velocity & accuracy info shortly thereafter.
BTW, I found a whole case of Elephant 2F, unopened, last week by calling Maine Powder House. That was the last of the 2F, he still has about 77 pounds of 1F. He's out of the 3F as well.
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Received my new rear sight from Buffalo Arms Co. It is the excellent Smith Enterprises buckhorn ladder sight on a base with a .450" dovetail. Much better sight picture and ladder sight adjustments..If you haven't seen or owned one of the Smith Enterprises, you are missing a great sight.
My dovetail slot measures about 0.436". I have a safe file for cutting dovetails. I'll cut down the dovetail on the sight base rather than enlarge the dovetail slot in the barrel. That way, I will be able to install the factory rear sight again should I ever get involved with the re-enactment crowd.
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I installed the Buffalo Arms sight. Now, I have a real sight picture. I was able to shoot 3-4" groups @ 100 yards on a windy day & without having worked on the trigger pull yet.
Annealing the brass solved the extraction problems. I fired 50 rounds w/no cleaning between & every case ejected just fine. There was very little debris in the action when I cleaned. I was firing Scheutzen 2F using the 350-T Rapine bullet & SPG. There was soft lube on the muzzle.
My chronographing & alloy testing was interesting. I used the basic load described above. I fired 10 shot strings w/o blowing, and cleaned between strings. I had significant leading with 20:1, none with radioisotope alloy (med lead), ditto w/ wheel weights and Lyman No. 2. the bore apparently likes a little antimony in the alloy.
The harder the alloy, the smaller the group size, with No. 2 allow posting 2.5" 100 yard group. WW group was about 3", med lead about 3" & 20:1 came in at 5" (due to leading?).
The exact load was: Starline annealed & trimmed brass, 35 gr. by volume of Scheutzen 2F w/enough compression to seat the bullet to the crimp groove (more than 1/4") using a MPS compression die, a 0.030 Walter's wad, the Rapine 350-T bullet sized to 0.512 & lubed w/SPG, light crimp, Federal magnum rifle primer. Bullets weighed near 365 gr depending on alloy.
Velocities & Sdt Devs were: No. 2 - 840fps/std dev 16 fps, 20:1 - 833 fps/12 fps, WW - 809 fps/10 fps, and med lead 815 fps/18fps.
One more thing about the Smith Enterprises combination buckhorn/ladder sight. The gun still hits about 10" high @ 100 yards. I will have to deepen the notch in the rear sight to get a point blank 100 yard sight picture using a bottom hold.
My next experiments will be done after I have worked on the trigger pull. I will be using Swiss 2F & 3F with alloys of med lead, WW & No. 2. It will probably be President's Day before I get to test again.
All in all, I think it won't be long before I have a load ready for deer hunting. This has been a real gas, what fun!!!
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Your velocities seem a little low and SDs high. Was it cold when you were shooting? My 56-50 (M-1868 carbine, 20" bbl) run around 930 fps using 35 gr. of GOEX FF, mag primer and 375 grain cut down Lyman 515141 50-70 bullet. SDs were low teens at most, usually single digits for a 10 shot string. Your accuracy is great though! You'll have no problem dropping dinner with your Spencer!
I carried that carbine one year in Va. and never got a shot. I hope your luck runs better!
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AZ Trooper,
Depends on your definition of cold. It was in the 20's which ain't very cold for mid-January in these parts.
I shot my Trapdoor the same day & got SDs of 8 fps w/one load & 5 fps with another.
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Bill: Sure appreciate your loading report. My Spencer should finally be here today or tomorrow, and I have a mold on the way from Dakota Widowmaker. Also just got a mixed case of BP, and will try some of the New Goex Express FFg. What is the LOA of your cartridges?
Bill
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Howdy Bill,
The loa with the Rapine 350-T bullet is 1.503"
Wait 'til you shoot that carbine with black powder! The flame is about 6' long!!
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The Lock:
I finally removed the lock. If you want to do that, be very careful, there is some thin wood around the edge of the side plate.
I coated the wood inside of the inletting with tung oil to harden the wood fibers.
There was absolutely no grease in the lock. It was dry as a bone. Trigger pull on my fisning scale with the lock in this condition was 18+ lbs. Parts were smooth & well fitted other than that little lubrication problem. The sear engagement was just fine. I won't monkey with mine & suggest you leave yours alone, too.
I greased the lock, reassembled & tried trigger pull again. Cocked smoother, but pull still aobut 18 lbs.
If you don't understand the heat tempering of springs, nor understand how tool marks can cause zones of weakness causing premature spring failure, if you don't know the proper way to work down a leaf spring, read no further. Take the gun to a gunsmith who understands sidelock actions.
The outer 1/2 of the bottom spring leaf is the trigger return, it was contributing 8 lbs to the trigger pull. I removed enough spring material to reduce the trigger return to 6 lbs.
I then workd down the top leaf, which controls the hammer fall, about 15%. Reassembled. Trigger pull is now a crisp 8.5 lbs, with smooth travel thanks to lubrication. I might work down the spring some more before I do final polishing.
Stay tuned.
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It's been many months since I have been able to get back to the Spencer 56-50 project. Apparently, the wait was worth it because I got a couple of things figured out.
Concerning the rear sight, I simply put the factory rear sight in the mill & cut the battle sight slot square (vertical sides, flat bottom) to 0.060" wide & about 0.100" deep. Gave a great, clean crisp sight picture that allows me to get groups about 3" square at 50 yards, plenty good for deer hunting. I also recut the notch on the elevator slide & the one at the top of the elevator being careful to index everything so that all the notches are on the center line.
Next, I worked up a load for cowboy shooting and what do you know, it prints dead on @ 25 yards, 6" low at 50. I have not chronographed the load, but here is the data: 365 gr. Rapine bullet, 0.512" dia, 30:1 alloy, SPG lube, 27 gr by volume Elephant 1F (fills a standard Belding & Mull charge tube to 14.5), magnum large pistol primer, 0.030 Walter's wad, 0.035 compression, 1.503 loa, moderate crimp, annealed Starline brass. I fired 20 rounds w/o cleaning, no leading was evident - I did this in 2 10-shot groups allowing the barrel to completely cool between strings. Both groups were about 3" in diameter; 1st shot from a clean barrel prints about 1" higher than the others.
Like I said, I have not chronographed the load, but I can tell you that it is s-l-o-w. my guess is around 600 fps.
Next experiment is a 3F Swiss load for deer hunting. I am hoping to regulate the load so it prints dead on @ 50 yards. If it does, I won't have to worry about reworking the front sight to lower the point of aim. I'll post this load when I get the time to work it up.
I'll try to chronograph both loads sometime this fall.
Once again, stay tuned...
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Hi SSS,
Back to the top as this post has losts of great loading information
Two Flints
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Here is the chrono data for the cowboy load I described above, as well as recipe & velocities for the hunting load. All data was collected 15' from muzzle over a Oehler 3 screen chronograph, it has not been corrected to give muzzle velocity. Conditions were 65 F, 30% relative humidity, wind calm.
Sight setting was using rear sight with the staff laid down, top of front sight even with top of the square notch of rear sight, not the top of the "V".
Cowboy load that prints dead on @ 25 yards, center hold. 1st shot from clean barrel, 596 fps, remaining shots averaged 572 fps.
Hunting load, with center hold, prints 4" high @ 25 yards, 5" hi @ 50 yards. For first shots from clean bores 4.5" @ 25, 5.5" @50.
1st shot velocity 990 fps., remaining shots averaged 976 fps. I'll use a bottom hold on the deer.
Interesting note: cowboy load windage is dead on, the hunting load is 2.5" right of center @ 25, 4.5" right @ 50. So, you might want to readjust the rear sight if you want to use this load for hunting.
Here's the recipe for the hunting load: 28gr by volume (14.8 on Std Belding & Mull charge tube if you have one), Swiss 3F, Federal magnum large pistol primer, once-fired Starline annealed brass, neck sized, moderate roll crimp, 365 gr. Rapine bullet 20:1, sized to .512", SPG lube, 0.030 Walter's wad, 0.035" compression, no drop tube, from a Lyman 99 measure, 1.503" loa. Group size @ 50 yards, 3" wide by 2.5 high.
I think I'm done messing around with this rifle now so don't look for any more from me until after hunting season. I plan to try for a whitetail with this beastie.
Thanks to all the Spencer Shooting Society members for their helpful posts & emails along the way. This has been a great project.
Email me if you have any questions.
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Used the Spencer at a NCOWS-like match over Labor Day weekend, up in Grizzly country int he Shoshone national forest, SW of Cody, WY. Water froze in the buckets to nights, but the Spencer did its job - 40 shots, 40 hits. Don't get any better than that. Nope, no griz strayed through camp.
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Well, I got my buck. He is a heavy bodied, 19" wide, 4 X 5 white tail shot down on the Yellowstone River in Montana on a ranch that gets a lot of hunting pressure. Range was 15 yards using the black powder hunting load I posted above. Now that I've fulfilled the Spencer dream, it is on to my next project. I have a Cimarron 1876 Winchester on order, cartridge is 50-95, should arrive in the summer of 2007, it will use the same bullet I chose for the Spencer.
Two Flints will add a picture that I sent him, I am too dumb to figure it out myself.
Good luck hunting with your Spencers!!
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/SpencerBuck.jpg)
Backstrap Bill
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Don't want to be too gory. Did the deer run after the shot hit or did it just fall? Where did your bullet hit? Was it a heart/lung shot or elsewhere?
Just want to understand the effectiveness of the 360 gr 50cal Spencer from a hunting perspective.
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Hi Backstrap,
We had an horrific wind and rain storm in Maine last night (Saturday), too many tree came down, too close to our power lines, so I had to shut my computer down early...sorry I couldn't post your Spencer Buck photo sooner.
Nice looking buck. Now, let's see what fits here. CAMO COWBOY, is there such an alias? I'm not sure we have a good fit here...a Spencer and camo clothing??? Why not a cowboy outfit??? or Civil War outfit to go with that Spencer??? I see the CasCity-Spencer cap, but WHAT, no Spencer Shooting Society insignia??? For shame!
Thanks for your posts and the photo of the buck!
Two Flints
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It was a lung shot, just behind the shoulder. The entrance hole through the ribs was about the size of a silver dollar, same going out the other side. The buck ran about 40 yards. White tail amaze me with their strength, even when they are dead on their feet.
Two Flints, I place such high value on my SSS insignia, etc, that I could not stand the thought of getting icky stuff on them while skinning. I got a drop of blood on the cap & was depressed for about a minute. As for the camo, I figured the camo would make me invisible so the Spencer would stand out better.
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Greetings!
Well, it's a Deer Cartridge {as if there was a doubt...}!!! Great photo, too. You're going for the 1876 in .50Ex? I wish that I had the cash! I've got a Win.1876 in .45-75 that has a "shootable" bore, but it's not a "Fifty"! Did they tell you what twist they're cutting in the barrels? You've GOT to keep us posted!
I think that we need an Official "Hunting w/ Spencer" category! Stories & Photos, guys! What say?
Be Well!
M.T.M.
10-30-06
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Rapine Info bumps this thread back to page one!
Two Flints
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Well howdy,
It has been a while since I've checked the SSS pages. My Spencer has been performing flawlessly, so I haven't needed to look for solutions to problems.
The Rapine bullet continues to perform well. I've shot the Spencer in about a dozen SASS and NCOWS matches now and have never missed a target with the Spencer. I didn't use the Spencer hunting in 2007 - a big mistake as I had several deer well within range...
Apparently the Rapine bullet, and perhaps the carbine itself, are immune to stealth bullets.
With that in mind, I intend to try the Rapine bullet in my brand spanking new Centennial Model in 50-95 -- as soon as it comes back from the importer. The rifle has a problem that makes the gun inoperable, that I can fix, but want the importer to see first.
So, looks like I'll be spending my time on the 1876 Winchester pages until I get this beast (28" bbl, about 12 lbs empty) running.
Backstrap
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Backstrap Bill,
So, looks like I'll be spending my time on the 1876 Winchester pages until I get this beast (28" bbl, about 12 lbs empty) running.
Shame on you Bill, :'( :'( :'( SSS has missed your Spencer input and information. An 1876 Winchester ??? ??? :P :P :P
Two Flints
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Now what did you go and git one of those Winchester contraptions fer??!! :-\ Git yerself a Whitney-Kennedy Express and be happy! ;)
Seriously, I'd love a '76, but in 45-60. It's an easy cartridge to live with (and the Whitney is in 45-60). Does yours have the 1 in 90 something twist that 50-110 Winny 1886s had?
Keep shooting your Spencer. You don't always need heavy artillery!
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/index-1.jpg)
(Photo added by T.F.)
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My 50-95 1876 Winchester has 1:48 twist, 0.507 groove and 0.500 bore. I'm starting a thread on the 1876 board. Thet's a nice piece you have got there. Might have to be the next experiment if I get the 50-95 lined out.
BTW, I discovered a little fund raiser for our club. There's always a few folks drooling when I drag out the Spencer. So, after the match, I let's 'em shoot it for a buck a pop with the proceeds going to our club.
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Backstrap Bill must mean his repro '76 with 1 in 48" ROT as ORIGINAL 50-95 '76's had 1 in 60" ROT. ;)
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;D Here is another bullet that looks promising for the 56-50 Spencer when using black powder. It is the Lyman 515139, currently available through Buffalo Arms Co. I bought one to try it in my 50-95 Win. The bullet has 3 grease grooves and a beveled base. There is no crimp groove, but it would be a simple thing to crimp just forward of the front driving band. When cast of 20:1 @ 750F, the bullets weigh 343gr with driving bands of 0.518" diameter. I probably won't get a chance to test it in my Spencer carbine until this time next year; all my brass is loaded for the upcoming season (load all winter, shoot all summer, shoot year round when you can). If someone has experience with this bullet with black powder in the Spencer, I'd like to know how it worked out. One more thing, Lyman recommends the 191 top punch - I had to modify mine w/epoxy to keep it from gouging the bullet noses something fierce. Good shooting to you.
Well, its Feb, 2011 7 I finally got around to trying the Lyman bullet in my Spencer. Bottom line: The Rapine bullet works much better in the Spencer, more accurate & feeds better.
Sorry it took so long to do this. But, hey, I am still faster than most drifting continental plates.
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It's been a while since I looked at the post. Thought I'd let you know what I use for lube with black powder.
45% beeswax and 55% vegetable oil + 1 tbps STP. Add the solid beeswax to the oil to get the correct volume of beeswax. Beeswax expands quite a bit when liquid - and that will throw the measurement off. I start with 1 1/8 cup of the oil in a glass measuring cup & then add the beeswax in small chunks to get up to 2 cups. Then add the STP. (yes, the STP does make a difference, I believe it makes the lube stickier - is that a word?). Put the measuring cup of ingredients into a pan of hot water to melt. Stir it well & also while pouring into the mould. I made a lube stick mould, this makes about 9 sticks.
This stuff keep fouling soft enough to shoot 60 rounds in a match over a full day without having to clean the bore. Lube star at the muzzle is still soft at the end of the day, even in the dry Montana air.
If I anneal after each firing, the case mouths are soft enough to swell & keep significant fouling out of the action, too.
BTW, I am still using Rapine's bullet, too. I also use it in my replica 1876 winchester in 50-95.